Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/Bart Starr Award/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by Giants2008 via FACBot (talk) 00:25, 16 October 2023 (UTC).

Bart Starr Award

 * Nominator(s): « Gonzo fan2007  (talk)  @ 18:31, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

The Bart Starr Award has been presented to an NFL player each year since 1989 on the Saturday before the Super Bowl. The award, named after Green Bay Packers quarterback Bart Starr, is given to a player who exhibits outstanding character and leadership. This is my first FLC in quite some time, so please bear with me. Thank you for your consideration and review. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk)  @ 18:31, 26 September 2023 (UTC)


 * Hey man im josh

Drive by comment, I'll be back later on to do a more thorough review, but the table does not currently pass an accessibility review (MOS:DTAB). PresN has a standard comment I find helpful for accessibility which can be found. Hey man im josh (talk) 19:05, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
 * , did I do this correctly? « Gonzo fan2007  (talk)  @ 19:26, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
 * @Gonzo fan2007: The column scopes are good, and I'm assuming that table title works properly for screen readers, so you're good on that front. The row scopes don't appear to be correct though. I know how to correct it when cells are on new lines in the editor, but I'm not familiar with how to do so when multiple cells are divided by two vertical bars. A sign that you've done it correctly is if the cell that you've applied the scope to is the only one in the row that is shaded grey. See List of National Football League annual rushing touchdowns leaders as an example of this. Hey man im josh (talk) 19:39, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
 * My understanding is that the grey shading is achieved by the exclamation mark and not row scope field. Since the name of the player is the scope of the row, I'm not sure grey shading down the middle of the table would look appropriate or make sense. « Gonzo fan2007  (talk)  @ 20:06, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Oh wow, I guess I just had never realized the correlation, how silly of me. Absent a screen reader, I'm frankly not sure how to check the accessibility. I'll assume it's good for now until PresN does their accessibility review.
 * One thing I should have mentioned though, I noticed that sort names are not applied to the list. Hey man im josh (talk) 20:07, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done . « Gonzo fan2007  (talk)  @ 20:29, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

Image review: Passed
 * Images are relevant
 * Images are appropriately licensed
 * Images have alt text

Source review: Passed
 * References are reliable for the information being reported
 * Consistent date formatting
 * Consistent publisher/website formatting
 * Appropriate wikilinks where applicable
 * Links are archived

Assuming that the rows are properly defined (no screen reader to verify this for myself), I support. Hey man im josh (talk) 15:17, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the image review, source review and your support, and congrats on the new tools :) Nice to see another Josh get adminship! « Gonzo fan2007  (talk)  @ 17:07, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you! Hey man im josh (talk) 17:09, 27 September 2023 (UTC)


 * Comments
 * Probably worth specifying at the start that this relates to American football. Maybe start with "The Athletes in Action/Bart Starr Award is an American football award given annually..."  I know you mention the National Football League in the first sentence, but it is not the only "National Football League" in the world.......
 * "The award is presented by Athletes in Action (AIA), which is a sports ministry" => "The award is presented by Athletes in Action (AIA), a sports ministry"
 * "The nominee list is compiled from a group of individuals made-up" => "The nominee list is compiled by a group of individuals made up" (as currently worded it indicates that the PR Directors, etc, are considered for nomination)
 * "However, some past awardees have been chosen at times by fellow NFL players" => "However, some past awardees have been chosen by fellow NFL players"
 * "Bart Starr, the former hall of fame quarterback" - as far as I know he is not a former hall of famer, so change to "Bart Starr, the hall of fame former quarterback"
 * "to present the award that bared his name" => "to present the award that bears his name"
 * "Since 2015, Tony Dungy and" => "Since 2015, former NFL coach Tony Dungy and" (can't assume readers know who Dungy is)
 * "Steve Largent, the former hall of fame wide receiver" - as above
 * How come the second and third entries under "see also" are more indented than the first? -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:41, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
 * , thanks for your comments. I implemented all of them except the first. After a quick perusal of other NFL awards, I don't really see a precedent of stating it's an American football award. I understand where you are coming from, but this isn't an American football award per se, it's an NFL award, and the NFL happens to be an American football league. I could add "NFL, an American football league in the United States" but that seems excessive. I think the NFL brand is largest enough that most readers won't mistake a small Irish league with the Internationally known NFL. And even if they do, NFL is linked. Thoughts? On your last question, I double indented those two items because article #2 and #3 are included in article #1. I've seen this done before but don't have a strong feeling either way, so let me know what you think. « Gonzo fan2007  (talk)  @ 14:27, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
 * After a quick perusal of other NFL awards, I don't really see a precedent of stating it's an American football award - that may be because none of the ones you looked at have been reviewed at FLC, where someone might bring it up. Other NFL-related lists which have been through FLC, such as List of National Football League annual rushing touchdowns leaders, do mention the sport right at the start.  it also seems a little odd IMO to say it isn't an American football award when literally the only people eligible to win it are players of American football....... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 20:07, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
 * , the example you provided is for an NFL scoring record. It's fairly essential to understand the list itself to first understand how people score in American football, thus it makes sense to have that right off the start. That said, I made this change, I assume that satisfies your concern. Let me know if it doesn't (I really, really don't want to have "Bart Starr Award is an award", which sounds clunky at best). « Gonzo fan2007  (talk)  @ 22:01, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Support -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 09:19, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your review and support! « Gonzo fan2007  (talk)  @ 15:59, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

, all done, great work! MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 16:01, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
 * MyCatIsAChonk
 * - "after" twice in close succession is confusing; reword it, perhaps split it into two sentences or just put the reason in an efn
 * The "References" header is commonly shortened with the abbr template, so that the column doesn't display so wide: Ref(s)
 * Ref 34's website should not be formatted as a link, and wl it
 * Fox is unreliable per WP:FOXNEWS, though I'm not sure if Fox Sports applies; still worth bringing up, though
 * Thanks for the comments. I implemented your recommendations. Regarding WP:FOXNEWS, I believe this only applies to foxnews.com, not the entirety of Fox's programming. A quick read of WP:FOXNEWS shows that the focus of editor's concerns were politics, science and talk shows. That said, I just updated the source to WCNC in Charlotte, since there were other sources easily available. Cheers,  « Gonzo fan2007  (talk)  @ 17:00, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Support - thanks for the quick replies! MyCatIsAChonk (talk) (not me) (also not me) (still no) 00:10, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your review and support! « Gonzo fan2007  (talk)  @ 15:59, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

Accessibility review (MOS:DTAB)
with 3 supports and all comments resolved at this point, any prejudice to me nominating another FLC? « Gonzo fan2007 <small style="color:#2A2722">(talk)  @ 19:28, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Caption and colscopes are good now, and rowscopes are almost there- you have e.g., but to be a "header" cell it needs to be an '!', so  . That does make it look a little odd to have the third row be the header; consider either using the year column or re-ordering the columns so that the year or name is the first column.
 * Please see MOS:DTAB for example table code if this isn't clear. I don't return to these reviews until the nomination is ready to close, so ping me if you have any questions. -- Pres N  00:54, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I do think moving the year column to be the left most column and applying the row scope there makes the most sense. Hey man im josh (talk) 12:14, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
 * , excuse my ignorance on this, as it is the first time I have really got into table accessibility issues. Is the table accessible right now? Does the exclamation mark "header" do anything for accessibility or is it's only true function to make that column gray, indicating to the visual reader that it takes precedence or "heads" the remaining data? « Gonzo fan2007  <small style="color:#2A2722">(talk)  @ 15:59, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I updated the table to move the year to the left side. « Gonzo fan2007  <small style="color:#2A2722">(talk)  @ 18:17, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Yep, you're good now. And yes, the '!' marks it as a header cell for multiple purposes, and the wikimedia styling uses that to make it gray (like it does the header cells at the top of the table). -- Pres N  20:18, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Go ahead. -- Pres N  21:32, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Featured list candidates/List of Green Bay Packers presidents/archive1, cheers! « Gonzo fan2007  <small style="color:#2A2722">(talk)  @ 14:01, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

Giants2008 ( Talk ) 21:27, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.