Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of Arizona hurricanes/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by Dabomb87 16:10, 17 September 2011.

List of Arizona hurricanes

 * Nominator(s): Tito xd (?!? - cool stuff) 03:37, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured list because it is an interesting and comprehensive page that meets all the featured list criteria. Tito xd (?!? - cool stuff) 03:37, 2 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Oppose from KV5


 * Oppose NeutralThose lists consist mostly of list items and have non-hurricanes. This "list" is 80% prose and hence an article, not a list. It should be renamed and moved to FAC. Pumpkin Sky   talk  19:41, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Changed it to be more list-based. Tito xd (?!? - cool stuff) 22:36, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
 * More Comments 1) I'm okay with the format now 2) ref retrieve dates are half m-d-year and half year-m-d, they should all be consistent 3) I have to go with KV5 on the name, cyclones are not hurricanes, hurricanes are in the Atlantic, typhoons are hurricanes in the Pacific, both have gobs of water, Arizona is not even on an oceanic coast-and it's in the desert. Sorry but I simply can't refer to a storm in AZ as a hurricane. Pumpkin Sky  talk  01:39, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I fixed the accessdates. As for the naming, I don't understand what you mean when you say "cyclones are not hurricanes". A hurricane is the name given regionally to tropical cyclones, and this includes the Northeastern Pacific, which is where Arizona gets its tropical cyclones. Typhoons only occur on the Northwest Pacific Ocean; Hurricane Ioke, Hurricane Linda (1997), Hurricane Rick (2009), Hurricane Guillermo (1997), Hurricane Iniki, Hurricane Ismael, Hurricane John (1994), Hurricane John (2006), Hurricane Kenna, Hurricane Kiko (1989), Hurricane Nora (1997), Hurricane Daniel (2006), Hurricane Isis (1998) and Hurricane Lane (2006) (all of the Featured Articles) occurred in the Northeast Pacific and are properly referred to as "hurricanes". Whether Arizona is a desert or not has no bearing on whether it can be affected by one, so I don't understand your last point either. Tito xd (?!? - cool stuff) 02:08, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah, my oppose had nothing to do with whether storms in Arizona can be called hurricanes; there is no doubt that this is correct. My oppose was based on the fact that the list includes multiple types of tropical cyclones: hurricanes and tropical storms. &mdash; KV5  •  Talk  •  11:11, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment to whoever is opposing this what do you think of when you here the word "hurricane"? BTW, Strange PAsserby, AFAIK, this issues has been brought up once in 2007 on List of California hurricanes. 13:16, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Retrieve dates ok now. Like I said before, I have always seen hurricane used to mean a storm over a certain wind speed in the Atlantic (which means kaboodles of rain). It makes my skin crawl to see hurricane used to mean a storm on the west coast, even more so one in the desert. So I can't support this naming convention. But since I seem to be in the minority here, I'll change to neutral. I think that COMMONNAME is being MISAPPLIED here. Pumpkin Sky   talk  21:02, 18 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Support with support.


 * "Usually, these storms originate in the eastern Pacific Ocean, and make landfall in the Mexican states of Baja California or Sonora, dissipating before crossing into the United States" - this is rather wordy
 * Fixed. Tito xd (?!? - cool stuff) 22:36, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
 * "Not all Arizona hurricanes originate from the Pacific Ocean, however; an Atlantic hurricane in 2008 produced rainfall in eastern Arizona, and another Atlantic storm reached Arizona as a tropical depression" - you say "Arizona" three times in one sentence
 * Fixed. Tito xd (?!? - cool stuff) 22:36, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
 * You use the verb "carry" in two consecutive sentence. While one wouldn't have annoyed me, it is a bit too vernacular for me to be happy you using it twice so soon after another in the same context. Is the "most storms that could affect Arizona are carried away from the United States" even necessary?
 * Replaced with "steer", and I'd say that the two sentences are saying slightly different things, so both are necessary. Tito xd (?!? - cool stuff) 22:36, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
 * "summer/fall rainfall" - that's a little weird reading. Are you opposed to using "autumn"?
 * This is more difficult. There are two wet seasons in Arizona: The winter season, with cold front-based rainfall, and the summer season, which is monsoon-based. Tropical cyclones occur mostly in the fall, just after the end of the monsoon season, so I can't replace summer/fall with "monsoon season" per se, and just saying "autumn" is inaccurate. Tito xd (?!? - cool stuff) 22:36, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I think Nora's rainfall should be mentioned in the lede, considering it is the statewide peak
 * Added. Tito xd (?!? - cool stuff) 22:36, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Some of the storms in "Storms" are unsourced.
 * Done. Tito xd (?!? - cool stuff) 23:50, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
 * "The rainfall due to the storm still holds the monthly rainfall record at the National Weather Service office in Tucson" - what was the total?!
 * Added. Tito xd (?!? - cool stuff) 23:50, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
 * "This same system produced more than twice the average annual rainfall in Imperial Valley, California" - isn't this supposed to be about Arizona?
 * Yes, but the rainfall total in an area that is contiguous to Arizona seemed impressive enough to leave it in. I can take it out if you'd prefer. Tito xd (?!? - cool stuff) 23:50, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
 * "On the 11th, the remnants of separate system passed, again, over southwest Arizona" - your commas put me in a coma!
 * It sounded better when I wrote it. Changed. Tito xd (?!? - cool stuff) 23:50, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
 * In 1950s, you have two consecutive sentences with the phrase "over the state"
 * Changed. Tito xd (?!? - cool stuff) 23:50, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
 * What are "washes"?
 * Added a link. Tito xd (?!? - cool stuff) 23:50, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
 * "Albeit the storm remained at sea,[10] its residual moisture was advected over southern Arizona, a passing cold front triggered widespread showers and thunderstorms on the evening of September 9" - it's a runon or needs a semicolon or something or another brother
 * Also, the word "albeit" is misused in this context. I suggest going with "Although" instead. ★ Auree  talk 22:57, 3 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Changed it. Tito xd (?!? - cool stuff) 23:50, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
 * "Any damage from the storm is not known." - that isn't really helpful :/
 * Not really sure what to put there instead. Tito xd (?!? - cool stuff) 23:50, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
 * "8 miles wide" - conversion?
 * Fixed. Tito xd (?!? - cool stuff) 23:50, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
 * How is the year not known for Octave still?! Just find an estimate from 1983!
 * The problem is that the source did not specify whether the damage was in 1983 dollars, or current dollars. Tito xd (?!? - cool stuff) 23:50, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
 * "The storm system produced sustained winds of 20 to 30 miles per hour (30 to 50 km/h) were recorded in the Tucson area. " - I grammered myself when I was read that.
 * Sentence fragments are yummy. Tito xd (?!? - cool stuff) 23:50, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
 * "Raymond passed over the state as a tropical depression, and produced heavy rainfall on the southeastern portion of the state, with 4.72 in (120 mm) of rain falling in Nogales" - you mention "state" twice
 * Changed. Tito xd (?!? - cool stuff) 23:50, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I'd mention the year for Hilary
 * Is this still necessary, considering the new format? Tito xd (?!? - cool stuff) 23:50, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Why is Isis's bit occurring after a semicolon?
 * Same here. Tito xd (?!? - cool stuff) 23:50, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
 * "that surround Tucson. However, there was no flooding reported in the Tucson area, and Tucson International Airport reported only 1.1 in (28 mm) as a result of the storm" - why does Tucson need to be mentioned three times? I know it's one of the coolest cities in the world, but come on, give Yuma some love!
 * The second one can be removed, but I'd rather leave TIA spelled out. Is that ok?
 * Damage total from Lester or Nora?
 * Added Nora. MWR/TCR doesn't mention damage figures for Lester in the US. Tito xd (?!? - cool stuff) 23:50, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

Tis it. --♫ Hurricanehink ( talk ) 03:30, 3 August 2011 (UTC)
 * The Olivia 00 bit is boring and lengthy
 * Not sure how to fix boring. Maybe making the text blink ? :P Tito xd (?!? - cool stuff) 23:50, 7 August 2011 (UTC)


 * No opinion for now, but I want to comment with regard to the name of the article. Since there is precedent for the term "hurricane" in such articles, including a number of featured lists, I would argue it is reasonable to assume that this has been raised at previous FLCs. If those lists were not affected by their names, there is no reason this nomination should fail simply because one or two reviewers don't like the article's name. That being said, it is less of a list than an article as it stands. Strange Passerby (talk • cont) 15:56, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I understand your point of view and appreciate that input; however, consensus can change, and just because it happened before doesn't mean it has to stay the same. Thanks for your thoughts on the topic :-). &mdash; KV5  •  Talk  •  21:45, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Speaking as someone with a decade of research on tropical meteorology and something like 40 FAs and FLs on hurricanes, I can say with reasonable confidence that "hurricane" has two usages; a common usage and a technical usage. From a technical standpoint, a hurricane is a tropical cyclone with sustained winds that satisfy a given wind criterion. However, it is used far more commonly to encompass all tropical cyclones in the climatological context (ie. a season or other time frame, or a list of storms to affect a state). We have the 2011 Atlantic hurricane season in addition to the National Hurricane Center, the US governmental agency responsible for tracking all tropical disturbances with the potential to develop into any sort of cyclone: depression, storm, or hurricane. Since Wikipedia follows a common naming convention, "hurricane" is the most appropriate term. Juliancolton (talk) 00:33, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Support all issues on Hink comment's have been addressed AFAIK, so I support. I alos think it's title should remain the same per WP:COMONNAME and per what said above. YE  Pacific  Hurricane  00:46, 8 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Support - See my above comment for why I believe the above objections are based on inaccurate assumptions. The article is the result of extensive and thorough research, and I believe it's well deserving of the status. Juliancolton (talk) 14:53, 9 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Support, no further issues. Name doesn't bother me, and my only other concern has been adequately addressed. I think this is enough of a list to qualify now. That said, wouldn't it have been better if all the wikiproject supporters declared their conflict of interest? Strange Passerby (talk • cont) 03:44, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

I make no claim to be an expert on anything, but in my humble opinion, there's no information in the table conveyed by colour that is not available in the text of the table. I'd say the table meets our standards for accessibility, although it would benefit from a caption. Unfortunately, I can't say the same for Saffir-Simpson small as it displays windspeed information on mouseover that is denied to anyone who only uses a keyboard (since the table elements it produces can't receive focus). I'd prefer to see something like the table on the right but that's really an issue for your WikiProject (or whoever maintains Saffir-Simpson small).

The only other thing I would suggest is that the second table has a colspanned heading: "Wettest tropical cyclones, and their remnants, in Arizona - Highest known recorded totals", which ideally ought to be the table caption, rather than a header row. Readers using JAWS (screen reader) or similar would appreciate these sort of minor changes. Cheers, --RexxS (talk) 23:29, 18 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Swapped Saffir-Simpson small with Saffir-Simpson and modified the table accordingly. Tito xd (?!? - cool stuff) 22:13, 19 August 2011 (UTC)
 * That looks fine, the new Saffir-Simpson table is a big improvement and you've made captions for the main tables. I don't see any outstanding accessibility issues. --RexxS (talk) 15:53, 29 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Comment on the article/list issue. I was leaning towards considering this an article as well. However, there is precedent on having small clusters of text be considered a list, namely at one of KV's FLs, List of Major League Baseball managers. Given that I'm not sold on the validity of the oppose. Wizardman  Operation Big Bear 15:28, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Note that my oppose is not based on this being a list. It is. My oppose is based on the use of "hurricane" in the name as opposed to "tropical cyclone". &mdash; KV5  •  Talk  •  15:30, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

Comment I would like to see the Wettest tropical cyclones, and their remnants, in Arizona table reduced down in size.Jason Rees (talk) 15:33, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
 * The size of the font is already 92% of normal. Reducing the table size is not possible without removing information from the table, and I don't know what could be removed while retaining the table's usefulness. Tito xd (?!? - cool stuff) 09:53, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually it can be done rather easily by reducing 50% to 30%.Jason Rees (talk) 16:04, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
 * But that forces the last column to span four rows in a 1024x768 screen, at least for #10 in the list. Even 45% causes that problem in my monitor, and the smallest width that does not cause me that issue is 50%. Tito xd (?!? - cool stuff) 19:58, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Support - I have no major issues with the list, ive read through it over the last few weeks and everything seems to be upto scratch. As for the width, i can now see what Titoxd meant having just checked it out on a small screen.Jason Rees (talk) 11:30, 16 September 2011 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.