Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of Avatar: The Last Airbender episodes/archive2


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was not promoted by User:The Rambling Man 07:07, 22 August 2008.

List of Avatar: The Last Airbender episodes
previous FLC

Since it was removed from FL status a month back, this list has undergone a huge copyedit and a revision with the table's coloring, as well as a thorough peer review. I believe that it is now up to FLC status. Since I haven't made enough edits to qualify submitting this list, I've contacted User: Rau J and he agrees that the list is ready for FLC. Let the nitpicking begin, then... --haha169 (talk) 01:04, 11 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Comments - I see major improvements, just a couple of things..
 * The series has been released entirely on Region one DVDs.  - does Region have to be capitalized?
 * You're right: I've fixed that. --haha169 (talk) 04:25, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
 * The general references cover the release dates and episode titles, but what is verifying the writers and directors?
 * Let me search Google real quick. --haha169 (talk) 04:25, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't really think TV.com is reliable enough, but what about the credits at the end of each episode? Don't they count as a reliable reference? --haha169 (talk) 04:27, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
 * They are. The credits are more than reliable. Rau's Speak Page 13:46, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
 * They are, but how are you to source the credits?-- S R X  16:50, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Same way as we source the plot. We don't. I don't know if there is an exact guideline, but all TV articles do this - no source is really required for the plot section. In the same sense, no source is required for the credits because its already sourced. An off-line source, yes, but it can easily be verified by going to Veoh or iTunes and watching the episode. --haha169 (talk) 18:55, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

-- S R X  22:39, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Oppose—Not written well enough.
 * Rau—No, the times when we allowed a straight repetition of the title the reader has just read are over. You might point to existing FLs for "inspiration", but the truth is that in time they will need to be updated to modern standards. It's very irritating to start the main text with what you've just read, and sacrifices the opportunity to engage the reader. See WP:LEAD.
 * I find it ironic that both WP:LEAD and WP:LIST fail to mention this new requirement. Rau's Speak Page 02:54, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
 * However, the sentence that has been substituted for the repetition is unsatisfactory: "Nickelodeon's animated television series Avatar: The Last Airbender, which first aired on February 21, 2005, with a one-hour series premiere,[1] and concluded its run with a two-hour series finale on July 19, 2008,[2] has a total of 61 episodes." Try something less clumsy, such as "Nickelodeon's 61-episode animated television series Avatar: The Last Airbender first aired on February 21, 2005, with a one-hour series premiere,[1] and concluded its run with a two-hour series finale on July 19, 2008,[2]." Now, do you realise that this is an international site, not just a US site? I didn't notice that airing on those dates.
 * Yes I realize that this is an international site, that is why we use the first release date globally. The tables reflect this. I have implemented the version you suggested. Rau's Speak Page 02:54, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
 * The rest may have been copy-edited, as claimed, but it's not good enough. The second sentence, for example: " The Avatar franchise refers to each season as a "book", with each episode referred to as a "chapter". Avoid "with" as a connector in formal prose. Try " The Avatar franchise refers to each season as a "book", in which each episode is referred to as a "chapter". Another example: "The entire series has been released on region one DVD, but only the first season has been released on region two." The second "on" is wrong; I'd use "for".
 * I've taken care of the instances that you have noted, but as the main author of that text, I'm afraid I can't really improve it much. Rau's Speak Page 02:54, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Now we see what date autoformatting was concealing to us, but not to our readers out there: "31 January 2006" and all of the dates in the bottom table are inconsistent. Can you make it all US formatting in the main text and the tables, please? Tony   (talk)  01:23, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Taken care of. But I find it odd you say to use US formatting so quickly after stating that this is an international site. Rau's Speak Page 02:54, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for dealing with it. Yes, it's an international site, but your nomination is US-related. MOSNUM clearly states the guidelines, just as for the "Variety of English" section at MoS main. Tony   (talk)  07:08, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

PS Opening repetition: there's a bit here and a bit here. Tony  (talk)  07:11, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Tony, I think we've already established a fine opening lead with boldface as well as a opening sentence that describes the subject in great detail. If there are any issues with the current one, please say so. But those two links have been taken care of already. --haha169 (talk) 17:18, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Comments Haha, I added the citation needed tags. They made all sorts of claims about global release dates that weren't mentioned on any website, so they need citations. I don't really care how they make the table look; I more care about the facts. NuclearWarfare  contact me My work 23:28, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * You don't have to crowbar in any bold text. If it's not in the opening sentence, don't stick it wherever it might fit.
 * I've moved it to the opening sentence. *SIGN* 01:56, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Is the correct name of the unaired pilot "Pilot (out-of-continuity)", or is the parenthesised bit added in under good faith by an editor? If so it's WP:OR and should be removed.
 * The pilot is unnamed. I've removed the parenthesized statement. *SIGN* 01:56, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Please take a look at List of Lost episodes, List of The Simpsons episodes, List of Smallville episodes, List of Lassie episodes and List of Degrassi: The Next Generation episodes. They are all Featured Lists, but they present the episode tables quite differently to this one.
 * I'm afraid I don't understand this point, we modeled the episode tables specifically after Smallville. And after looking at them, it resembles all the ones you listed. *SIGN* 01:56, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * There is no universal Wikipedia episode table, and FL criteria suggests that the table look appealing and creative. I think the coloring looks appealing and creative - much more so than that of the Simpsons. Therefore, you can't pin us on this one. --haha169 (talk) 03:42, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * The colours don't bother me. What I mean is that they are transcluded from each individual season article. Matthewedwards (talk • contribs • email) 05:16, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * You have it backwards. The ones on the season articles are from this list, and even so, there is nothing wrong with that. It shows unity between the articles. *SIGN* 07:09, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * No you have it backwards. Take a look at List of Lost episodes in edit mode. You have this:""Then on Lost (season 1) at the episode table, you will see it is surrounded by  The table is transcluded from Lost (season 1) to List of Lost episodes, and only one table (the season page) is ever edited. Any edits show up at the main episode list. This should happen here too. At the moment, the episode tables here don't even use episode list. Matthewedwards (talk • contribs • email) 07:35, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * episode list is for individual season lists. List of The Simpsons episodes don't use that template, or any of the template's columns, although I think prod. code should be included to the Avatar list as well. I got lost at the technical coding stuff, so I can't reply there. --haha169 (talk) 20:32, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * That's an interesting idea. However, Smallville doesn't do that. And if we did do that, the season articles would lose their summaries. And not doing it is no reason to prevent FL status, seeing as there are FL's that don't do it. But I'll look into it. As for prod codes, I don't know where to find them. *SIGN* 21:06, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * As they stand now, it can't be done while still keeping the visual look of them both. There really is nothing wrong with the coding as it is. *SIGN* 21:17, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I implemented my suggestion. Take a look at it now and see what you think. The advantage is that two pages don't need to be edited to be kept consistent. When one is done, the other is automatically. If you don't like it, simply revert the edit on the List of episodes page. The season articles could be left alone because the /  fields in episode list have now been changed to   and  Matthewedwards (talk • contribs • email) 21:42, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I have to say, I don't like it. The list sections of the transcluded articles are not FL quality. One episode even has a copyedit tag. Also, I'm pretty certain we aren't supposed to have summaries in the main list. While I appreciate the effort to improve the articles (And you did improve the season articles) I'm going to revert the main list. *SIGN* 21:49, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Ooops. OK, if you look now at the revision I made, the summaries shouldn't be there. I forgot to change one line of markup at episode list/Avatar. Again, it's up to you, but you should take a look. Matthewedwards (talk • contribs • email) 22:00, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * So, if you don't oppose, are you for it? *SIGN* 22:11, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Rau: personally, I like Matthew's edit. There are some things that might need tweaking (like the length of the prod. code column), and alternating colors need to be added, but it looks fine to me. Matthew: I doubt that release dates of individual episodes need cites. Even if they do, "General" has them listed in the IGN cites. --haha169 (talk) 22:35, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * It's 2/1 now, I'll revert my revert. *SIGN* 22:49, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * This needs a lot of work right now (mostly the 3rd season box). Columns are invading each other and row height is all over the place too. Makes it look ugly.  Also, would be nice for the columns of each box to line up (although even the old version didn't), just for more consistency. Derekloffin (talk) 22:58, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * (Edit conflict) The references are on the individual season pages. Remember they're transcluded. I made no changes to those pages, except to make the transcluding work. Matthewedwards (talk • contribs • email) 23:04, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh, yeah. I've removed the refs and cn tags. They are absolutely unnecessary. Who added them? On another note, Matthew, do you know how to retain color alternations?--haha169 (talk) 23:25, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * The cites are located in the "General" section of the list, under (Season 3), published by IGN. --haha169 (talk) 23:33, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Answered below NuclearWarfare  contact me My work  23:39, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Because of the final point, I must oppose at this time. Matthewedwards (talk • contribs • email) 01:47, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * If you are no longer opposing, are you supporting or neutral? --haha169 (talk) 22:32, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

(Edit conflict)
 * Well, I'd still prefer to see the tables transcluded. I'm undecided on which way to !vote, but I striked out my oppose for now because while you are working on it, it shouldn't be archived just yet.
 * I have changed my mind about the colours. It's too much. We're Wikipedia, not Skittlepedia. We shouldn't just add colours without any good reason just to make things look pretty.
 * The FUR for Image:Avatar-TLAlogo.jpg is abysmal. It doesn't say why it should be used for this article or Avatar: The Last Airbender. Use ScreenshotU, but also be aware that it doesn't aid the reader in identifying the episodes themselves, and so it fails WP:NFCC for this page. Matthewedwards (talk • contribs • email) 23:04, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I'll update the Fair-use rationale. You're aware that the image was uploaded before image rules were so stringent? Nvm anyway, I'll get to work on that. --haha169 (talk) 23:18, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Done --haha169 (talk) 23:31, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * The colors are for Visual Appeal, a requirement for FL. *SIGN* 23:35, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Visual appeal doesn't mean looking like a bag of candy. Matthewedwards (talk • contribs • email) 00:18, 21 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Going to change this discussion a little, if I can. I'm still not sure why this massive change to transclude was introduced and accepted. Anyone want to explain, because I'm solildly opposed to it. NuclearWarfare  contact me My work  23:26, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Nuclear, this transclusion thing is just a test. Anyway, it is standard to include the production code, which was lacking in the first one. Tell me what you liked about the original table and we'll see what can be done to put it back. --haha169 (talk) 23:30, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * The main purpose is for editing. With only one list to edit, it is much easier to keep the articles consistent with each other. But like Haha said, this is a work in progress, and I'm still a little wary of it. *SIGN* 23:35, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * The main purpose is for editing. With only one list to edit, it is much easier to keep the articles consistent with each other. But like Haha said, this is a work in progress, and I'm still a little wary of it. *SIGN* 23:35, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * The idea was introduced by me because a number of other Featured Lists also do it, especially the more recently promoted ones. Transclusion gives the advantage of only having one page to edit, rather than two, but having the same information on both pages. I made the edit to the page because it seemed like the contributors were having trouble understanding what I meant. Does transcluding need to be "accepted"? I was WP:BOLD made the change, and it was reverted, which I said right here to do that if the major contributors were unhappy with it. Matthewedwards (talk • contribs • email) 23:56, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Matthew, you did nothing wrong. It was a fine edit. We just need to know how to create alternating colors. --haha169 (talk) 23:58, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * As I've said, I really don't see the need. They add nothing to help provide information, the list is just as visually appealing with only the table headers coloured and using the  field of Episode list/Avatar. If you must though, you can use  . Matthewedwards (talk • contribs • email) 00:18, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Thank you. I'll use that code. It'll be in my sandbox for now. --haha169 (talk) 00:36, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Never mind. I am even more confused now than before. Nuclear, can we please use the table propsed by Matthew? The only issue here is alternating colors, and it's not a big problem. All of your other concerns are addressed. --haha169 (talk) 00:40, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
 * The alternating color lines reinforced the feeling of Water/Earth/Fire.
 * Chapter # made it easier to count which episode in the season it was. Inserting the production code instead would solve this, I suppose.
 * My citation needed tags and references were removed. They need to be there. Nearly half the dates are wrong if you just use the "general references," as a lot of them use Global release dates, which are earlier than the US. NuclearWarfare  contact me My work  23:39, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * IGN uses Global release dates - and that is what we're trying to achieve here. I'm not sure I understand you. So the only problem here for you is alternating colors? We're working on that. Wait a bit... --haha169 (talk) 23:42, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Are you sure? See the Black Sun episodes for example. We give them as being released on the 23rd and 26th, but IGN gives the US date of Nov 30th. NuclearWarfare  contact me My work  23:43, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I just looked and seems the IGN reference and the dates given don't match up right now. Derekloffin (talk) 23:45, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * That's actually exactly why I added the cn tags in the first place. Please don't tell me they were removed off of the original season 3 page. NuclearWarfare  contact me My work  23:49, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Ah, I see. I compared only the first couple episodes from Season 3 with IGN, and they matched up. As they go on, though, it differs. I'm not a long-time editor of these series of articles, so I'm not so sure what's happening. Rau? --haha169 (talk) 23:50, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Since Season 1 and Season 2 both use IGN as the ref - I'll go and re-write the Season 3 table to match up correctly. I think that the current date listed there is U.S. release - we need global. --haha169 (talk) 23:52, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Judging from what IGN says, and what was said back then, it seems that IGN.com only uses US dates... TV dates at that. What happened back then was that the UK decided to air Avatar Book 3 episodes one through nine in one week, in the US we were only on five or six. To reflect this, we started using international dates on the list. Then DoBS cropped up with rumors of it coming from The Netherlands and Belgium, I never saw a source for that, but the episodes were there so I accepted it. Then episodes twelve and thirteen aired in Canada and we just started using global air dates. THEN Nick decided to release Boiling Rock on DVD first so we switched to global release dates... It's all very confusing in a "had-to-be-there" kind of way... If you guys want to switch to USTV dates... I'm all for it. *SIGN* 00:03, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
 * We need whatever refs provide. If they don't provide global release dates, then we use USTV release dates. Any opposition goes to the talk page. Thanks. Glad that's cleared up. Now we need alternating colors and everything's good to go. --haha169 (talk) 00:07, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Agree with Haha. I think US release dates would be optimal for this, because of the ease of citabilty. Do you think that going back through the talk page archives would have any possible help if we wanted to use Global release dates (because we really should)? NuclearWarfare  contact me My work  00:14, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
 * It wouldn't, there never were any posted. I remember that time vividly and no one ever posted a source, it was all word of mouth. *SIGN* 00:47, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

(←) (Multiple edit conflicts) Because the series is American, you could use Original US Airdates, as long as you state that that is what they are. Matthewedwards (talk • contribs • email) 00:18, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Matthew, your suggested table has now been implemented. Any more concerns? --haha169 (talk) 00:43, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

I've lost my mind trying to follow this. Anyway, there is a proposal to just use US release dates, due to verifiability issues. All those in favor, say support. All those opposed, say oppose. NuclearWarfare  contact me <sub style="color:purple;">My work 00:26, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Section Break

Support NuclearWarfare  <sup style="color:green;">contact me <sub style="color:purple;">My work  00:26, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

That isn't a good idea on a FLC page. The closing director may think that they are opposes and supports to the FLC nomination by accident. But I approve of using US dates. Wikipedia is about verifiability, not truth. Matthewedwards (talk • contribs • email) 00:36, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

I support the idea of using US dates. NuclearWarfare  <sup style="color:green;">contact me <sub style="color:purple;">My work 00:37, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

I say use US dates as well. Perhaps make a note that some releases were earlier in other territories, but for verification reasons stick to the US dates. Derekloffin (talk) 00:41, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Obviously I support as well per above mention. --haha169 (talk) 00:43, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

As do I. And it's already implemented because thats what the season article used. *SIGN* 00:47, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
 * The table still says "Original Airdate". How do you change it? --haha169 (talk) 00:51, 21 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Rau J, I don't understand the edits made to Episode list/Avatar and the need for /Avatar2 and /Avatar3. You could have just used /Avatar on each season page. Matthewedwards (talk • contribs • email) 01:44, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
 * We could have, but that would makes the seasons use the same set of colors. This gives each season its own set of colors. Which, like Nuclear said, places emphasis on the differences betweent he seasons by illustrating the Water/Earth/Fire contrast. The reason I changed Episode list/Avatar is because I was planning on making future changes, and that version was easier to read. I knew what to look for before I even had begun to alter it. I don't even know if the version you placed in it had the option for the color tiles. *SIGN* 01:53, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
 * OK, give me five more minutes.... :) Matthewedwards (talk • contribs • email) 02:00, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

*Well, this big conversation seemed to finish up. What process is it to get an article to FL anyway? Do we wait for an external reviewer to come by or is Haha/Matt able to mark it as a FL? NuclearWarfare  <sup style="color:green;">contact me <sub style="color:purple;">My work  02:25, 21 August 2008 (UTC) I reread the guidelines for updating into a FL When the director of the FLC feels that all concerns have been addressed, and the article meets the criteria, then it will be promoted. If not, it will not be promoted and this page will be archived. Matthewedwards (talk • contribs • email) 03:49, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Support making a FL I've been a contributor to this article (not minor or major) NuclearWarfare  <sup style="color:green;">contact me <sub style="color:purple;">My work  02:29, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I support it as well, I have since the nom. *SIGN* 03:09, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Oppose still: Matthewedwards (talk • contribs • email) 03:49, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
 * WP:FL? Criteria 2. Does not follow WP:LEAD, specifically the WP:BOLDTITLE section.
 * Better? *SIGN* 04:45, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Image still fails NFCC. The image does nothing to the article to help identify the episodes, and according to the caption, "The logo reflects the Asian-influenced the theme of the show", what does this have to do with the episodes? FUR could still be improved, too.
 * No it doesn't. Images like logos or box covers, etc, do not need as stringent a fair-use rationale as most. The image caption also helps in determining if it fits fair-use, and it certainly does. Remember: logo. --haha169 (talk) 05:04, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Criteria 6. "suitable use of colour to achieve visual appeal. Please tell me why the skittle-pedia effect gives it a visual appeal? Colours should be used to identify something, not to make things look pretty for no good reason.
 * We have explained our reason for that. If you don't like it, oh well, it isn't against any policy to look like that. And I personally find it visually appealing. Also, Smallville's episodes have seemingly random colors for their tables. And stop citing WP:Color, it is irrelevant in this situation, as is WP:Pretty. *SIGN* 04:45, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm glad that the transcluding has happened, and even though the tables aren't "on" this page, they are shown on this page. If this is to "exemplify our very best work" they still need working on. I feel they fail Criteria 5. They do not follow the Manual of Style, in this case, WP:WikiProject Television's WP:MOSTV. The episodes should use the format set down by episode list, and the order it displays the fields entered. I can't see what the advantage is from straying from this established and accepted template, and editing Episode list/Avatar by putting the columns in a different order, and which doesn't even use every field that the main template does. Rau J, I asked you for a few minutes to let me edit the tables and templates so that they would work correctly, with the Skittle-pedia colours you want, and before I even got to finish you went reverting me for no reason other than "pleasing to all parties" without waiting to see what it was I was doing. Believe me, it doesn't please me, and it won't please WP:TV if an episode list gets to FL status without following its guidelines. Your reverts to my edits without waiting to see the final effect have really pissed me off.
 * I honestly don't care if you're pissed off. I reverted before I saw that you asked for five minutes. When I reverted it looked like you were seeing what your version looked like. You also said it didn't comply with WP:MOSTV without stating how, now that you have I took care of the problem. And it's impossible to please everyone 100%, I did the best I could, and it worked pretty damn well. *SIGN* 04:45, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I think you're pushing us a little hard here. This list's quality has far surpassed that of most TV episode list FLs, and it certainly fits FL criteria. Anyway, straying from established templates didn't harm Mary Shelly from getting Featured status.See this discussion about whether or not to accept different templates.--haha169 (talk) 05:10, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Also, nowhere in MOSTV does it say we have to match the layout set by episode list. I read and reread the section for lists, then I searched the article for any mention of the template and found none. That makes this request irrelevant. *SIGN* 05:29, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.