Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of Bonanza episodes/archive2


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was not promoted by Dabomb87 23:08, 23 November 2010.

List of Bonanza episodes

 * Nominator(s): Jimknut (talk) 22:08, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured list because Bonanza was a long-running television series and generally regarded as a classic. I have addressed all suggestions in the peer review which is now archived. I believe that the article has met the criteria to become a featured list.

Two items of note:
 * Bonanza aired on American television on NBC before the days of cable TV, internet, and home video. Thus, unless the tuned in to a local independent broadcast, people in America who were watching televison back then had only the three networks to choose from (NBC, CBS, or ABC).  Because of this I have chosen to lsit in the overview section all the shows that aired opposite Bonanza during its 14-year run.  It has been suggested to me that only people in the United States would be interested in this.  I disagree and think that people in other countries might be interested as well, thus getting a fuller spectrum of American television in the years 1959–73.
 * In the past the web site All-movie has been used as a reliable reference source for featured list. All-movie documents every episode of Bonanza individually.  Rather than have an individual reference for each of Bonanza's 430 episodes (which would make for a ref list so long that it would almost justify its on page) I have used an alternate site called Bonanza World which has the episodes listed in a season-by-season format.  I've check the information on both sites (Airdates, episode titles, names of directors and writers) and they both correspond with one another.  Thus I think Bonanza World can be offered up as a reliable source.

I'm now opened to suggestions. Jimknut (talk) 22:08, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Comments

Media files (WP:FL?#5(b))
 * File:Bonanza title screen.jpg is being used without a Fair Use Rationale. I doubt a valid one could be written because a title card does not meet WP:NFCC ("Contextual significance. Non-free content is used only if its presence would significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic, and its omission would be detrimental to that understanding.") A title card does not significantly increase the readers' understanding of a list of episodes about the show.
 * Now replaced with an image of the four original cast members
 * The new image is still a copyrighted image. There is still no Fair use rationale for its inclusion on List of Bonanza episodes, and I doubt a valid one could be written because a photo of four characters does not significantly increase the readers' understanding of a list of episodes about the show. Matthewedwards : Chat  05:55, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Prose (WP:FL?#1)
 * In that section, fix the "played" and "starred" to present tense
 * I think it should remain in the past tense as production on this films has been completed.
 * Per MOS:TV, part of the WP:MOS, "References to the show should be in the present tense since shows no longer airing still exist, including in the lead" Matthewedwards : Chat  05:55, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Lede (WP:FL?#2)
 * For the DVD section, looking at Amazon, it appears that there's more DVD and VHS releases other than Season 1 and 2. Also, there's no mention of new media (Drelbcom channel has full Bonanza episodes, Retrovision and Project Free TV does too (I haven't checked out the legalities of any of these). There may be more, Amazon, iTunes, TV Guide, etc.
 * The copyright of several Bonanza episodes have apparently lapsed into the public domain, which acounts for DVD releases other than what I have listed. I don't know about the legality of the sites you mentioned so, for the moment, I think it's best not to mention them.
 * So why not say that the copyright of some episodes has lapsed? This is encyclopedic information. I've read the legals of the sites, and it looks like only Project Free TV is dodgy. You should mention these per the comprehensive FL criterion. Matthewedwards : Chat  05:55, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
 * FYI, I was glancing through my copy of 5000 Episodes and No Commercials by David Hofstede (ISBN:0823084566) today, and on page 42 he reviews some of the older Bonanza DVD releases. Matthewedwards : Chat  03:15, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Per a precedence of previous FLCs, you need either episode summaries or season pages with summaries. See Featured list candidates/List of 7th Heaven episodes/archive1 for a previous discussion. (There are a couple of others, but I remember this one because it was my nomination)
 * There may be a precedence but I don't think there's a set rule yet. Since Bonanza ran for 430 episodes a summary for each would make this page extremely long, so it's better just to have the episode titles here. Links to season pages can be added once those pages are created. However, let's do one thing at a time, such as getting this page in shape.
 * Well, there's MOS:TV that mentions that episodes such have a 100-200 word summary per episode. And there's MOS:TV, which says that for shows with 80+ episodes, they should be split off into season pages. Summaries then appear on those pages, and the main list, while still keeping airdates, titles, directors, etc, should not have plot details. And there's WP:SS that applies as well Matthewedwards : Chat  06:09, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Style (WP:FL?5(a))
 * The use of colours is a bit haphazzard, some are a bit glaring. Do you need them at all?
 * The colours I used (for the most part) are based on colours in the List of Smallville episodes. They can be removed if anyone else objects to them, but I'll keep them in for now.
 * See WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. Currently it violates WP:COLOR.
 * WP:ELNO. There's too many unofficial websites linked in the EL section

WP:V I don't think this article is anywhere near FL-ready, so I must oppose at this time. Matthewedwards : Chat  02:29, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Article appears to be verified by unreliable sources.
 * Regarding http://bonanzaworld.net/ as a reference. Even though you might have checked that all information on this site corresponds with the information at AMG, we don't know that, and you can't expect someone go verify 430 pages at AMG with 430 pages at this site. That's 860 pages you're expecting us to go through. It's obviously a fansite, it's not very professional because I've spend 5 minutes going through it and already found typos. See WP:FANSITE#11. "Links to ... most fansites, except those written by a recognized authority." Who writes and maintains this site? What authority do they have in the world of Bonanza? What other than your say-so makes it a WP:RS? To determine the reliablity of the site, we need to know what sort of fact checking they do. You can establish this by showing news articles that say the site is reliable/noteworthy/etc. or you can show a page on the site that gives their rules for submissions/etc. or you can show they are backed by a media company/university/institute, or you can show that the website gives its sources and methods, or there are some other ways that would work too. It's their reputation for reliabilty that needs to be demonstrated. Please see Wikipedia Signpost/2008-06-26/Dispatches for further detailed information. I noticed in the references, you say Bonanza Ventures, Inc., and NBC, Inc. are the publishers of this site, but reading the website, they clearly aren't.
 * The link you're using for Ref 4: A Bonanzaworld website reader appears to have typed it up and stuck in on their site. How do we know it's typed up correctly for one thing? Second, if it is, it's a copyright violation. If you do think of a way to use the reference legitimately, the ref needs formatting correctly. Magazine title should be in italics, and with a magazine this old, you should give the publisher and location, issue # etc, so that if someone does want to verify it, they have a chance of finding the magazine
 * What makes http://www.tvhistory.tv/ a reliable source? It looks like http://www.tvhistory.tv/1959-PrimeTime.jpg et al are copyright violations
 * What makes http://ponderosascenery.homestead.com/scenes3.html a RS?
 * There are plenty of published books about Bonanza listed at Amazon, why don't you use those instead of unreliable websites? Same for books about ratings and schedules. Look at the books used as references at articles like 1959–60 United States network television schedule


 * Oppose - On sources alone I'll oppose, none of them seem to be verifiable. There seems to be no indication of where TVHistory retrieves their content. On Bonanza World the only FAQ or about I can find is on their forum. Regarding TVShowsonDVD it doesn't state where they get their information from. Afro  ( Talk ) 06:55, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually, TVShowsOnDVD.com is a reliable site. It's owned by TV Guide. Matthewedwards : Chat  07:22, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
 * If thats the case then I have no problem with it, what threw me off about it was on the FAQ "The site is owned and maintained by BlueFrog Studios.", if its owned by TV Guide, I guess I have no problem with it. Afro  ( Talk ) 07:33, 4 November 2010 (UTC)


 * I've ordered one of the books about Bonanza and will use that as a reference once I get it. This may take a few weeks so I'll have to put the ref chances on hold until then.  Can we hold the page in FLC "limbo" until then? Jimknut (talk) 03:33, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
 * That's up to the directors, User:The Rambling Man and User:Dabomb87 Matthewedwards : Chat  06:09, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
 * As long as sufficient progress is being made in other departments and there isn't prolonged objections to the references, I would assume this nomination can stay open. Afro  ( Talk ) 07:55, 8 November 2010 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.