Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of Broadway theaters/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by PresN via FACBot (talk) 00:26, 29 October 2020 (UTC).

List of Broadway theaters

 * Nominator(s): Found5dollar (talk) 15:52, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured list because "Broadway Theater" is a well known term without a historically well-defined meaning. Over time what has defined a Broadway Theater has changed and marking out the fluidity of the category is not something easily found elsewhere on the internet. I passed this list through Peer Review and was encourage to directly nominate it here. I look forward to everyone's feedback.Found5dollar (talk) 15:52, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

Comments by Chidgk1

 * Add an article description
 * added a short description template.--Found5dollar (talk) 17:55, 19 June 2020 (UTC)


 * "Early variety, burlesque, and minstrelsy halls were built along Broadway below Houston Street, and as the city expanded north new theaters were constructed along the thoroughfare with family friendly vaudeville, developed by Tony Pastor, clustering around Union Square in the 1860s and 1870s, larger opera houses, hippodromes, and theaters populating Broadway between Union Square and Times Square later in the century, and Times Square itself becoming the epicenter for large scale theater productions between 1900 and the Great Depression." is confusing. Maybe it should be two sentences.
 * re-worded it as: "Early variety, burlesque, and minstrelsy halls were built along Broadway below Houston Street. As the city expanded north new theaters were constructed along the thoroughfare with family friendly vaudeville, developed by Tony Pastor, clustering around Union Square in the 1860s and 1870s, and larger opera houses, hippodromes, and theaters populating Broadway between Union Square and Times Square later in the century. Times Square became the epicenter for large scale theater productions between 1900 and the Great Depression."--Found5dollar (talk) 17:55, 19 June 2020 (UTC)


 * If possible add a pic of Circle in the Square Theatre
 * there isn't one on commons and I did all my normal searching for a freely licensed one but couldn't find any. I normally would just go take a picture but with COVID I can't make it to mid town right now...--Found5dollar (talk) 17:55, 19 June 2020 (UTC)


 * No need for image and refs columns to be sortable.
 * doneFound5dollar (talk) 17:55, 19 June 2020 (UTC)


 * I am not familiar with US addresses so not sure if that column sort is useful. Belasco Theatre address looks odd.
 * it is all address in Manhattan that are odd. Belasco's address of "111 W. 44th St." breaks down to Building Number (111), side of Manhattan (East or West, here it is "W" for West), then the street or avenue (44th St.). Lots of numbers and abbreviations, I know but that is how it is laid out here.Found5dollar (talk) 17:55, 19 June 2020 (UTC)


 * "The following lists organize all demolished venues which hosted legitimate theater that appear on the Database based on when their last theatrical production was compared to the three moments that can be considered the begging of Broadway theatre." is confusing even if "begging" is a typo for "beginning".
 * re-worded it to "The following lists organize all demolished venues which hosted legitimate theater and appear on the Database. The theaters are organized into 4 lists based on when their last theatrical production opened compared to the three moments that may be considered the begining of Broadway theatre."Found5dollar (talk) 17:55, 19 June 2020 (UTC)


 * Use of "still" in "Before the advent of the musical there were still multiple theaters in New York that claimed the moniker of "Broadway", including an 1847 theater named the Broadway Theatre." reads odd to me but perhaps it is normal in US English?
 * removed the "still"Found5dollar (talk) 17:55, 19 June 2020 (UTC)


 * Barnum's American Museum seems to say it opened in 1841 so do you think the "built" columns should be titled "opened"?
 * 1841 is when Barnum acquired the building, not when the theater opened. I have not been able to find that information anywhere. changing the column to "opened" would sold this because we know the Chinese rooms opened in 1850 per the source. Changed all "Built" headers to "opened" and filled in Barnum's cell.Found5dollar (talk) 17:55, 19 June 2020 (UTC)


 * Do you think "buildings" would be better than "structures"?
 * I went with the word "structures" in the lead because not all of the theaters through history were encloses. A handfull were open air roof top spaces and 1 was an outdoor amphitheater. Because of this "building" doest cover all of the theaters through history, while "structure" does.Found5dollar (talk) 17:55, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

If you have time could you take a quick look at List of active coal-fired power stations in Turkey and comment at Featured list candidates/List of active coal fired power stations in Turkey/archive1. Assuming you know nothing about the subject it will be valuable if you could point out anything which is difficult to understand for a first time reader. Chidgk1 (talk) 16:59, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Chidgk1, thank you for the comments. Sorry it took a few days, when i submitted this i forgot about plans i had yesterday. If I find time, I'd be happy to take a look at List of active coal-fired power stations in Turkey.Found5dollar (talk) 17:55, 19 June 2020 (UTC)


 * Comments by Guerillero


 * Map nerd comment: It might be worth thinking about using Template:Maplink or a closer view of southern Manhattan than the giant static map -- Guerillero &#124;  Parlez Moi  17:26, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I think my comment was unfair  will display the map. I am working on moving everything to commons here -- Guerillero  &#124;  Parlez Moi  18:04, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Guerillero, THANK YOU! The map was a tough sticking point for me, I know we need it, but I tried both Location map and OSM Location map but neither seemd to be the right answer. I have never used Maplink before. Thank you for creating this and I'm going to read up on how this style of map works.Found5dollar (talk) 18:18, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I converted the whole thing to Maplink without reading this first. Feel free to modify/change it, or revert it if you don't like the appearance. epicgenius (talk) 22:18, 19 June 2020 (UTC)


 * Think that's it. Great work overall! -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 17:59, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * ChrisTheDude, thank you for such a through review and pointing out that I have absolutely no idea when a hyphen is necessary ;-P. The only note that I think needs discussion is the addition of dates for the former names of demolished theaters. As i stated above this information is available, but i chose not to include it. I figured in these demolished sections the dates were not important as the building no longer stands. When a demolished building changed names seem moot to me. I'd be happy to add in this info if it seems valuable and like it won't muddy the table. Please let me know if it seem pertinent to you or not. Thanks again for the review!Found5dollar (talk) 18:03, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I think it would be worth putting the dates in, personally..... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 18:35, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
 * ChrisTheDude, It took a while but I got all the past names dated in the demolished theater sections. the only issue is with "Princess Theatre" where there are 3 previous names but no dates attached in the reference. please let me know if there are anyother issues you see and thank you for all the suggestions so far!Found5dollar (talk) 21:41, 10 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Juset one (hopefully final) comment - based on the source I believe the entry for the Bijou Theatre should list its second spell of being known by that name as 1965-1982, not just 1965 -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:26, 17 July 2020 (UTC)
 * ChrisTheDude, Oh weird. I ran into that a few other times where the listed names for the same year were inverted in the source and I just apparently missed this one. Thanks for catching it. fixed.Found5dollar (talk) 18:09, 17 July 2020 (UTC)


 * Support -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 20:28, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

Source review - Pass
Doing now Aza24 (talk) 06:05, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Would link New York City College of Technology
 * Done. also added link to CUNY.--Found5dollar (talk) 15:51, 18 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Nielsen Holdings is Nielsen Business Media, not sure if it should be linked though
 * added the link just to be safe.--Found5dollar (talk) 15:51, 18 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Ref 4 Feb 08 should be February 8
 * Done.--Found5dollar (talk) 15:51, 18 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Ref 8 needs ISBN (find it here), can link to Rowman & Littlefield
 * Done for both. --Found5dollar (talk) 15:51, 18 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Refs 2, 3, 6, 8 and 63 should have a space after the "p." (e.g. "p. 40")
 * Done.--Found5dollar (talk) 15:51, 18 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Ref 6 should be "pp. 6–7" (note the em – dash)
 * added em dash.--Found5dollar (talk) 15:51, 18 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Ref 63 McFarland & Company can be linked
 * linked.--Found5dollar (talk) 15:51, 18 August 2020 (UTC)


 * What is "Jefferson, London." in ref 63?
 * It looks like I made a mistake. That should read "Jefferson, N.C." as the location of the publisher. Fixed and added an ISBN for it.--Found5dollar (talk) 15:51, 18 August 2020 (UTC)


 * "Kaiser, DJ," in refs in 2 and 6 should be "Kaiser, DJ." (with a period) I'm assuming? Aza24 (talk) 06:22, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes! thanks for catching that. Fixed.--Found5dollar (talk) 15:51, 18 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Thank you for taking the time to review these refs! Please let me know if there are any other issues you see.--Found5dollar (talk) 15:51, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Everything looks good now, tweaked a couple of things. Nice to see this list getting so much attention, pass for source review. Aza24 (talk) 21:53, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

Comments from TRM
WikiCup entry
 * Don't use "currently" - see WP:Currently.
 * removed the word from the article completely.--Found5dollar (talk) 22:38, 21 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Broadway is overlinked twice in the lead.
 * reduced the links to the street, Broadway, to just once in the lead.--Found5dollar (talk) 22:38, 21 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Image caption is a fragment, doesn't need a period.
 * fixed--Found5dollar (talk) 22:38, 21 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Should Off-off-Broadway be mentioned?
 * I toyed with this for a little bit, but Off-Off has no true relationship to Broadway theaters as structures. Off-Off was realy created as a response to Off-Broadway becoming too commercial, not Broadway which always was. If this was a list of Off-Broadway theaters I would 100% talk about Off-Off as it is the next tier of theater in NYC, but it has very little bearing historically to the theater buildings that make up Broadway.--Found5dollar (talk) 22:38, 21 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Most of the second paragraph isn't referenced, like those at geographical extremities.
 * It is my understanding that summarizing what the chart says does not need to be cited. These items including geographic extremities, youngest and oldest, largest and smallest, etc. are fully cited and explained in the chart and derive from it. I'd be happy to cite them here as well if my understanding is incorrect, but I am unsure how to cite that.--Found5dollar (talk) 22:38, 21 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Actor's Equity (Association) is overlinked.
 * reduced to once in the lead and once in the "Demolished" section--Found5dollar (talk) 22:38, 21 August 2020 (UTC)


 * In the "Active..." section, Actor's Equity (Association) is linked on its second mention.
 * fixed--Found5dollar (talk) 22:38, 21 August 2020 (UTC)


 * The Broadway League is overlinked.
 * Reduced to once in the lead, and once in the "Active" section--Found5dollar (talk) 22:38, 21 August 2020 (UTC)


 * "organizations currently use" avoid "currently" again.
 * Fixed--Found5dollar (talk) 22:38, 21 August 2020 (UTC)


 * No. of seats in that source appears to be "approximate" so that needs to be reflected in the list somehow.
 * Just as an interesting aside, capacity for venues in America are almost always approximate due to the Americans with Disabilities Act. One wheelchair takes up two "seats" so capacity and seat numbers will fluctuate based upon the amount of wheelchair uses at each performance. I have added a note referencing that all capacity numbers are approximate, and now since there are 2 notes in the article i started a new "Notes" section.--Found5dollar (talk) 22:38, 21 August 2020 (UTC)


 * As a non-expert, can you explain how the "address" column sorts please?
 * The address column sorts by the number of the street the theater is on, then the building number. It sorts theaters on 41st street first, then 42nd, then 43rd, etc. with the theaters on Broadway sorted last.--Found5dollar (talk) 22:38, 21 August 2020 (UTC)


 * "are 9 theaters" nine.
 * fixed--Found5dollar (talk) 22:38, 21 August 2020 (UTC)


 * "W Hotel"->"W Hotels"
 * Fixed--Found5dollar (talk) 22:38, 21 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Why isn't Central Theatre referred to as Movieland, per the ref? Suddenly now using the original names?
 * Picking which name to use for each theater was a challenge as some have gone through so many names. My general rule is to list theaters under the name they went by when they last hosted a legitimate theatrical production. Central Theater is a special case though because it did have legitimate theater from 1951-1956 under the "Holiday Theatre" name, but the wiki page, and one of the sources still called it the "Central Theater." I made an exception here because it seems "Central Theater" is the popular name for it, but understand if people disagree and feel that it should be listed as "Holiday Theater" for sake of consistency. It shoudlt be listed under "Movieland" because no theatrical productions took place under that moniker.--Found5dollar (talk) 22:38, 21 August 2020 (UTC)


 * "Theater" v "Theatre"... interesting issues (e.g. Ed Sullivan Theater reference calls it Ed Sullivan Theatre...)
 * "Theater" v "Theatre" is incredibly hard to parse out and is often contridicted by sources for the same places. We even have a disclaimer on the main Broadway theatre page which states: "Although theat er  is the generally preferred spelling in the United States (see American and British English spelling differences), many Broadway venues, performers and trade groups for live dramatic presentations use the spelling theat re ." I tended to base how to spell each buildings name here based first off what the IBDB source says, but then if the article for the theater has a different spelling of "theater" I went with it instead. I figured that the editors working on the individual theater spent more time with varied sources for that specific building so deferred to it.--Found5dollar (talk) 22:38, 21 August 2020 (UTC)


 * No need to link common terms like "hotel" or "storefront"...
 * unlined those two--Found5dollar (talk) 22:38, 21 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Actors' Equity is overlinked several times.
 * fixed above--Found5dollar (talk) 22:38, 21 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Internet Broadway Database is overlinked.
 * it is only linked twice int eh article, should I remove it from all of the cites?--Found5dollar (talk) 22:38, 21 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Why isn't "President Theatre" referred to as "Erwin Piscator's Dramatic Workshop" per its source? There seem to be a few discrepancies of this nature.
 * My general rule is to list theaters under the name they went by when they last hosted a legitimate theatrical production. The Dramatic Workshop was a school in multiple locations, had no public performances from what I can tell, and has no productions listed on the IBDB source. The last legitimate theatrical production in the space was under the "President Theatre" moniker. These discrepancies you may be findings are likey similiar issues to this one. Often a theater space is turned into another kind of theater before it is knocked down.--Found5dollar (talk) 22:38, 21 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Tynan caption is fragment, no period.
 * fixed--Found5dollar (talk) 22:38, 21 August 2020 (UTC)


 * " variety, burlesque, and minstrel " all overlinked.
 * Reduced to once in the lead, and once in the "Demolished" section--Found5dollar (talk) 22:38, 21 August 2020 (UTC)


 * "Whether or not it is truly the first musical, The Black Crook marks a turning point where Broadway became less about the variety, burlesque, and minstrel shows of the past, and began to be known more for the large-scale book musical which still reigns today. T" claims like this need reference and attribution.
 * you are totally right, i just completely missed adding in that cite. thank you for catching it. Original cite added.--Found5dollar (talk) 22:38, 21 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Nibio's Garden caption is a frag, no period.
 * fixed--Found5dollar (talk) 22:38, 21 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Ref 7 title is missing an apostrophe.
 * Fixed--Found5dollar (talk) 22:38, 21 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Park Theatre caption, same again, no period.
 * fixed--Found5dollar (talk) 22:38, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

That's a first pass. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!&#33;!&#33;) 14:51, 19 August 2020 (UTC)
 * , Thank you for taking the time to review this list! Please let me know if you find any additional issues or if any of my answers to your questions need further clarification.--Found5dollar (talk) 22:38, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

Comments from Sdkb
I haven't done a featured list review before, so take my comments with a grain of salt, but I've been reviewing some nominations in preparation for submitting a candidate page I've been working on, and wanted to leave a few thoughts about this page. Overall, it looks quite good — the images are quite nice, and the map is a very useful addition. The main source, IBDB, looks reliable.

There are a few tweaks that could be made to improve the formatting of the tables. When abbreviations are used for headers, they should be accompanied by abbr, as I demonstrated here. Some columns for things like years might also benefit from being centered rather than left-justified.


 * I have updated all the abbreviations in the headers to say what the abbr stands for. I previously considered centering the date columns, but it began to look weird in my opinion in the demolished theater sections because you had a centered year, a not centered year and title of of play, then a centered year again. I felt if years are centered in one table they should be in all of them. I'm happy to do this if other people think it would make legibility of the tables better but i just felt it looked awkward.--Found5dollar (talk) 17:37, 5 September 2020 (UTC)

Per criterion 5's expectation that minimal proportion of items are redlinked, I do notice that there are quite a few redlinked items, mostly historical plays. I'm not sure why that's a criterion, since I don't think it'd be fair to force the creation of a gazillion small stubs in order for this page to be listed. The thing that does matter for redlinks, though, is making sure that all redlinked pages are notable. It looks like we don't have a specific notability guideline for plays, so I'd be curious to hear your thoughts regarding whether we're safe assuming that any play that has been on Broadway is sure to meet the General Notability Guideline, and if we're not, which redlinks we might want to unlink.
 * IMHO a play or musical that has had a Broadway run is inherently notable. Unfortunately theater coverage in Wikipedia is not as good as it could be so many notable pieces are still missing articles. I agree there is an above average number of redlinks in some columns (namely the playas in the theaters), but I do not feel like they overwhelm. Of the actual items the list is about, theater buildings, only 16 out of almost 150 entries are redlinked which feels minimal to me. I'm happy to unlink the plays that are relinked if it is distracting but also hope that by them being redlinked it may open the doors for another editior to create the pages.--Found5dollar (talk) 17:37, 5 September 2020 (UTC)

Once the above things are addressed, I will be happy to offer my support, although again with the caveat that I am not the most experienced reviewer. Cheers, &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 01:45, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
 * , sorry for the delayed response to your questions, and thank you for taking the time to review this list. Please let me knwo if any of my answers are not satisfactory to you or if you see any additional issues.--Found5dollar (talk) 17:37, 5 September 2020 (UTC)
 * I asked for clarification at MOS about the column alignments, but I won't hold up my !vote over that. Support. &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 20:20, 5 September 2020 (UTC)

did you have any more comments to add to the batch from before? Giants2008 ( Talk ) 22:09, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
 * No, my major issues have been addressed. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!&#33;!&#33;) 10:40, 8 October 2020 (UTC)


 * Support – My concerns have been addressed. Giants2008  ( Talk ) 21:19, 10 October 2020 (UTC)

Promoting. -- Pres N  22:30, 28 October 2020 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.