Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of College of William & Mary people/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was not promoted by Matthewedwards 20:48, 2 August 2009.

List of College of William & Mary alumni

 * Nominator(s): Jrcla2 16:40, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm nominating List of College of William & Mary alumni because it fulfills all FL criteria that I can see and has been peer-reviewed. The suggestions and necessary corrections have been fixed, and it now deserves to be a candidate for FL status. Jrcla2 16:40, 20 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Further oppose with further comments
 * What does 17?? mean? It needs a note.
 * Fixed.
 * I suspect that "Dropped out for military service" should sort in the early 1800s.
 * Fixed.
 * No need to link common terms, like France - think how would this benefit a reader of this list?
 * Currently working on. Fixed.
 * Why are abbreviations in bold in the lead and not in the tables? I'd unbold all instances, probably in accordance with MOSBOLD.
 * Fixed. Removed bold from lead.
 * Some entries in the Year column have additional information, different degrees for instance. Does that mean they received both the BA/BSc and the other degree, or just the one noted?  It's unclear.
 * Fixed. There used to be a note in the lead, but then during a peer-review someone suggested I remove it, but I'll put it back. It reads "This list uses the following notation (In the event that multiple years are listed, the student attended William & Mary for both undergraduate and post-graduate degrees as specified):"
 * "148–year " shouldn't that just be a hyphen rather than an en-dash, per WP:DASH?
 * Fixed.
 * "U.S." or "U. S." - be consistent.
 * Fixed. There was only one instance of "U. S." but it's been corrected.
 * "mayor or Hampton, Virginia" should that be "Mayor of Hampton"?
 * Fixed.
 * "A Democratic member ..." just "Democratic member" to stay consistent with all other entries. Check 'em all.
 * Fixed. I went through every single notable and made sure none of their notability started with "A", "The", "An" etc. All are now consistent.
 * Not keen on small text. Why, for instance, does ref 9 need to use small text?  Is it your choice or determined by a template?
 * Fixed. Removed small text from ref 9.
 * Ref 49 needs accessdate.
 * Fixed.
 * Ref 105 needs to use the same PDF code as ref 86.
 * Fixed.
 * I've been told many times, it's The New York Times...!
 * Fixed.
 * Why is "pro-football-reference.com" a "work" while "databaseFootball.com." is a publisher?
 * Fixed. I think I was in a hurry at the time I was filling out the football-reference one and accidentally placed at as a work.
 * The Rambling Man (talk) 10:57, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Fixed all comments from The Rambling Man. Jrcla2 01:29, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I'll be the judge of that, thanks. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:36, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I was referring to the ones in the list above, not necessarily all of your problems with it in general. Don't get defensive, it's hostile. Jrcla2 talk 20:03, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
 * What I meant was that it should be up to me to decide that you've fixed everything to my satisfaction. Not defensive, just you don't need to tell me when you've fixed my comments, I'll let you know. Cheers. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:11, 1 August 2009 (UTC)


 * More comments from The Rambling Man
 * The images are still squashing text for me.
 * Fixed, although it's your resolution, which is probably really high. I don't know what else I can do at this point so if it's still squashing text for you but nobody else, it's not my fault.
 * " is also the nation's oldest and most prestigious ..." oldest, sure, but just a single source to suggest it's the most prestigious - this is just someone's opinion.
 * Fixed.
 * "the country's initial 10 " why not just "first ten"?
 * Response: Because then the sentence would read, "Four of the country's first ten presidents were educated there, including the first, George Washington (class of 1754)." It's incredibly redundant.
 * It's not clear what the year after, for instance, George Washington means. I would guess it's the year they graduated?  But to a non-expert it's not obvious, particularly when you refer to people in other contexts (e.g. the president).
 * Comment. I put "(class of 1754)" after Washington in the lead, so I am wondering if that's sufficient/acceptable notation for readers to safely assume that the years in parantheses are therefore graduation years?
 * "over half a dozen " why not just state how many rather than being a touch sensationalist about it?
 * Response: Because this is an incomplete list. If I were to say that, for example, "William & Mary has graduated seven ambassadors" it sounds like a definite, finite number. I don't know if there have been more (very possible, to be honest) but since I can't find them online, I don't want to assume there are no more.
 * MLS or Major League Soccer. Be consistent, or use Major League Soccer (MLS) the first time (in the lead) and then MLS thereafter.
 * Fixed.
 * What's NASL?
 * Fixed (North American Soccer League, btw).
 * "1968-1969" needs an en-dash, not a hyphen.
 * Fixed.
 * Very very heavy dependency on the primary source, a lot of these could be referenced from third-party reliable sources. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:36, 29 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Comments from
 * General
 * Dabs and external links check out fine.
 * Has it been considered to split this list up into separate articles? Like one for sports people, other for politicians, etc.?
 * Response. It has not been considered because List of Dartmouth College alumni is a much bigger page but has no sub-pages to speak of, so there's no reason to unnecessarily split this one up either.
 * Lead
 * The university consists of one undergraduate and five graduate schools.[6] The 5,700-student undergraduate school issues letters in the arts & sciences, while graduate degrees can be earned at the William & Mary Law School, Graduate School of Education, Mason School of Business, and Virginia Institute of Marine Science. -- The & should be changed to and
 * Fixed. I want to point out that the & in William & Mary Law School is part of the official name of the law school, ampersand and all, so I left that one in but removed the one from arts & sciences.
 * The College offers 36 undergraduate programs, 12 graduate programs and professional degree programs in business, education and law. -->''The College offers 36 undergraduate programs, 12 graduate and professional degree programs in business, education and law.
 * Fixed.
 * In academia, the College is home to the co-founders of the Phi Beta Kappa Society (ΦBK), Bushrod Washington (1778) and William Short (1779).  --> In academia, the College is home to the co-founders of the Phi Beta Kappa Society (ΦBK): Bushrod Washington (1778) and William Short (1779). 
 * Fixed.
 * Two-time NCAA First Team All-American soccer goalkeeper Adin Brown (2000) used to play for the Tribe, but in 2009 plays professionally overseas in the Norwegian Premier League. --> Two-time NCAA First Team All-American soccer goalkeeper Adin Brown (2000) used to play for the Tribe, but as of 2009, plays professionally overseas in the Norwegian Premier League.
 * Fixed.
 * List
 * Why is the ΦBK in the years column?
 * Question. Where else would it go? The annotation needs to be easily seen in the list and next to the graduating year seems like the perfect spot to put it.
 * Why not in the notability column? The years column is strictly for the years.-- T ru  c o   503 16:09, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Fixed. Moved all ΦBK denotations into Notability column.
 * In the Virginia House of Delegates one of the years column has a "~1795", what is that?
 * Fixed, for now. It was supposed to mean that person graduated in roughly 1795, but due to a lack of verifiable sources online and elsewhere the exact year is not known. I've changed it to "179?" to make it more consistent with other years with similar lack of exact date problems.
 * I really don't know, but the years column is really misleading when it comes to sortability, I think it shouldn't be sortable due to the unknown dates and the many different notations.
 * Comment. The years definitely need to be sortable, but I'll work on finding a better looking way of making everything more consistent and easy to follow. Fixed, I think. I tweaked some of the formatting. If anyone has any better suggestions as to how to "fix" it, I would be grateful to hear them.
 * References
 * Link to all publishers that have articles on Wikipedia.
 * Will work on soon. Fixed.

-- T ru  c o   503 20:35, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Truco, is this in the WP:MOS or is it your personal preference? Most times, we would only link to publishers who are relatively unknown.  The Rambling Man (talk) 10:25, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, not necessarily. But shouldn't there be consistency? I've seen this come up at FACs and other FLCs by reviewers as well that consistency is needed in linking to the publishers.-- T ru  c o   503 16:09, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Fixed all problems raised by Truco. Jrcla2 05:30, 27 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Weak Support -- I still feel there are issues with the article as stated below, but my comments were resolved.-- T ru  c o   503 19:08, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Comments from Dabomb87 (talk) 16:31, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
 * No need to link United States.
 * Fixed.
 * "and is one of only eight schools"
 * Fixed.
 * "provide an Ivy League collegiate experience at a public school price." Per WP:PUNC, the quotation mark should be inside the period.
 * Fixed.
 * "During and slightly after the" "slightly after" sounds strange; how about "shortly after"?
 * Fixed.
 * "This explains the thirteen missing graduating classes" "thirteen"-->13 per WP:MOSNUM
 * Fixed.
 * "while graduate degrees can be earned " "while"-->and
 * Fixed.
 * "The College offers 36 undergraduate programs, 12 graduate and professional degree programs in business, education and law."-->The College offers 36 undergraduate programs as well as 12 graduate and professional degree programs in business, education and law.
 * Fixed.
 * "including the very first"
 * Fixed.
 * "In academia, the College is home to the co-founders of the" So it literally houses these people?
 * Fixed.
 * "A number of William & Mary Tribe alumni"-->Several William & Mary Tribe alumni
 * Fixed.
 * "have found success in professional sports"-->have succeeded in professional sports
 * Fixed.
 * "Mike Tomlin (1995) is the current head coach of the NFL's Pittsburgh Steelers and became the youngest head coach in League history to win a Super Bowl at 36 years old."-->Mike Tomlin (1995), the current head coach of the National Football Leagues's Pittsburgh Steelers, became the youngest head coach in League history to win a Super Bowl, at 36 years old.
 * Fixed.
 * "The NCAA college basketball " Spell out NCAA on this first appearance.
 * Fixed.
 * "(In the event that multiple years are listed" Decapitalize the "In".
 * Fixed.
 * For the notation explanations at the end of the lead, wouldn't it make sense to link the full term rather than the abbreviation?
 * Fixed.
 * All problems by Dabomb87 have been fixed.
 * Noted; more coming. Dabomb87 (talk) 01:50, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

A good list, that with a bit more work will become one of Wikipedia's finest pieces of work, I'm sure. I have a number of points, some minor, some not, so mine is an oppose for now That's all for now; I'll keep on reading and see whether anything else catches my eye. (Incidentally, I speak as a veteran of several featured alumni lists...) BencherliteTalk 13:42, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Notes from Bencherlite
 * Two instances of "the The" or "the the"; change both to "the", per the next comment
 * Fixed.
 * Unless "the" comes at the start of a sentence, it shouldn't be capitalised – see here for an example of W&M not capitalising "the" mid-sentence.
 * Fixed.
 * My view (and others may differ) is that "the College" ought to be turned to "the college" throughout; I appreciate that W&M may refer to itself as "the College", but that doesn't mean that Wikipedia has to follow suit when talking about the institution in a general way.
 * Fixed.
 * "This list includes those who have either attended or graduated from the The College of William & Mary as well as every commencement speaker from 1930 through 2009. For inclusion on this page, the notable person must have attended William & Mary for a minimum of two semesters, or the historical equivalent. Those who either transferred to another university, dropped out, or were fully educated at the College but were never conferred a degree are also included." Two points (a) Why two semesters? Is that your standard for inclusion, or the college's standard definition of what's needed to qualify as an alumnus?  (b) This paragraph should be lower down in the lead section.
 * Fixed. (a) I removed that sentence entirely to avoid confusion. (b) Moved paragraph to just above notation at bottom of lead.
 * Three names are referenced using NNDB which Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_26 at WP:RS would tend to suggest is not a reliable source. Can you find better sources?
 * Fixed.
 * Ref 14 and all other references from the Biographical Directory of the United States Congress: the surname should not be capitalised, even if the source capitalises it.
 * Fixed.
 * Ref 11 – the website says "(c) 2008", so you should use "date=2008" in the citation template; and the same for all references where any indication of the date of the website page is given.
 * Will work on soon. Fixed. If any references are missing a date, it's because none was provided for that site and/or article. All of those that do contain copyright dates now have them.
 * Ref 109 (Henry Lee IV) and ref 143 (William Gilham) – use cite book, not cite web, and use all the appropriate parameters
 * Fixed.
 * What makes http://footballcardgallery.com a reliable source?
 * Fixed. All references directing to that website have been changed to RS.
 * There are too many names without articles. WP:STAND says that "Selected lists of people should be selected for importance/notability in that category and should have Wikipedia articles (or the reasonable expectation of an article in the future)." To be a properly-comprehensive list, these peoples should have articles written about them if they are notable in Wikipedia terms (as many would appear to be) or removed from the list if they are not notable in these terms.
 * Fixed, although I would like to point out that I have left a handful of athletes (specifically basketball players) who do not have their own pages on the list. Since they are relatively new professional basketball players (most graduated this century) there is still high potential for someone to come along and make their pages. I got rid of at least 75% of all people who didn't have their own pages off this list. Some of the "fictional people" will obviously never have their own page, but for the sake of that specific category, I don't think it's fair to say to remove them.
 * Following on from this point, what efforts have been made to make this as comprehensive a list as possible? I'm not expecting everyone who ever attended the college who is "notable" to be included, but I'd like some idea of the research that you've done to find names for the list.
 * Response: A great number of them I incorporated via Category:College of William and Mary alumni (and its sub-categories). I also found a decent amount by using variations of keywords in Google, such as (but not limited to) "notable alumni", "William & Mary", "College of William and Mary", "famous alumnae" etc. I then checked Wikipedia to see if there were articles for them, and many times there were.
 * The list of commencement speakers doesn't belong in this list, in my view. The list should be restricted to alumni (and that would allow the page to be renamed appropriately).  Listing commencement speakers means that you list people with a purely trivial connection to the college e.g. Desmond Tutu.  In any case, if the list stays (a) the list is in the wrong order (see this style guideline) (b) you ought not to be linking to another wiki for pre-1929 dates (c) there ought to be some link explaining what a commencement speaker is/does (I'm based in the UK and it means very little to me)
 * Fixed. Per the suggestion, I moved the commencement speakers back to W&M's central article. When the time (inevitably!) comes that this is a FL, we can move the page to read "List of College of William & Mary alumni" then.
 * If you want, we can move the article now, too. Dabomb87 (talk) 19:35, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment: I'm going to move the page to "List of College of William & Mary alumni". Consequently, I'm going to need to re-do all of the section redirects that are within the article itself. I'll begin work on that right now, so please don't mention that there are (at present) redirects in the article. It will be fixed soon enough. Fixed. Jrcla2 05:57, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
 * What does "L.H.D." mean for Robert Gates?
 * Fixed. That was a mistake on my behalf for putting that in there. I was quickly adding notable alumni toward the beginning of this process and put in an honorary degree for Gates, which is what L.H.D. is.
 * Do you really mean "Never conferred a degree" for William Barton Rogers? Perhaps "Never obtained a degree" or "received" would be clearer, as "conferred" makes it sound as though he was conferring the degrees.
 * Fixed. Changed "conferred" to "received" in all instances.
 * "The College of William & Mary was also home to alumnus Jon Stewart." Dabomb87 raised this point above about another sentence, so it ought to be fixed here too.
 * Fixed.
 * "and George Wythe, the very first law professor in the United States." Dabomb87 raised this point above about another sentence, so it ought to be fixed here too.
 * Fixed.
 * I regret your decision to remove images to avoid the requirement of alt-text. The list is duller as a result.
 * Response: As nice as it would have been to have all of those pictures, I was just not willing to have to write alt captions for hundreds of face portraits, most of which looked the same (paintings of middle-aged, white male faces wearing white wigs...how many ways could I possibly describe that?). As aesthetically disappointing as that decision was, it wasn't a back-breaker for FLC status. List of Dartmouth College alumni doesn't use pictures and thats's a FL.
 * Fixed all of the above-mentioned objections raised by Bencherlite. Jrcla2 talk 20:11, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Comments – Just glanced at the sports part of the list, and I saw a few reference issues that I feel should be addressed.
 * References 142 and 151 have no listed publishers.
 * What makes the following reliable sources?
 * http://www.thedraftreview.com/
 * How is this not a RS?
 * http://www.databasefootball.com/
 * How is this not a RS?
 * http://www.fanclub-teufelsrochen.de/roster.htm (This also lacks a publisher)
 * http://yanks-abroad.com/
 * http://www.campvarsityrunning.com/
 * http://www.findagrave.com/  Giants2008  ( 17–14 ) 22:38, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Note: It's usually the nominator's job to prove whether a reference is reliable or not. To determine the reliability of the site, we need to know what sort of fact checking they do. You can establish this by showing news articles that say the site is reliable/noteworthy/etc. or you can show a page on the site that gives their rules for submissions/etc. or you can show they are backed by a media company/university/institute, or you can show that the website gives its sources and methods, or there are some other ways that would work too. It's their reputation for reliability that needs to be demonstrated. Please see Wikipedia Signpost/2008-06-26/Dispatches for further information. Dabomb87 (talk) 20:21, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.