Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of German field marshals/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was archived by SchroCat 13:51, 3 January 2015.

List of German field marshals

 * Nominator(s): Jonas Vinther (speak to me!) 18:34, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

The article was a huge, unreferenced mess when I first saw it. After working on the article for about a month in my sandbox it's become (in my opinion) worthy of FA-status. Jonas Vinther (speak to me!) 18:34, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

Comments by MisterBee1966
Pretty good progress. Please find a few recommendations below. MisterBee1966 (talk) 19:08, 9 November 2014 (UTC)
 * I suggest to make use of the template sortname for better name sorting and dts for correct date sorting. Using dts template you can merge the "Year of promotion" and "Date of promotion" columns.
 * This is a good suggestion, but I don't know how to use all those templates. Jonas Vinther (speak to me!) 20:58, 9 November 2014 (UTC)
 * I made the changes to the section "Nazi Germany (1933–45)". Note that you must adhere to MOS:DATERANGE


 * If available, I would add a picture column. I believe a number of pictures are safe to use on lists. Alt text may be required
 * After looking at List of British field marshals I agree on what you say about a picture column. Will check into this. Jonas Vinther (speak to me!) 20:58, 9 November 2014 (UTC)
 * It's done. ✅ Jonas Vinther (speak to me!) 22:16, 9 November 2014 (UTC)
 * You need to add alt text to the images


 * The lead needs some expansion. You need to provide some motivation for the four sections and maybe add some statistics, like X were promoted during the War of XYZ ....
 * I don't feel the lead needs that much improvements. I like the idea of "X were promoted during the of X", but further expansion are (in my opinion) unnecessary. Jonas Vinther (speak to me!) 20:58, 9 November 2014 (UTC)
 * It's done. ✅ Jonas Vinther (speak to me!) 22:16, 9 November 2014 (UTC)


 * "Although the rank had existed since 1631 under a different name" triggers the question what was the name
 * Yes it does, but this is an article about who held the rank of field marshal, not the old one, so didn't put too much emphasize on this. Jonas Vinther (speak to me!) 20:58, 9 November 2014 (UTC)


 * "Field marshal (German: Generalfeldmarschall) was the highest military rank in Germany for 75 years" what about Göring? Wasn't he an exception to this rule, he became a Reichsmarschall. Maybe worth commenting on
 * True, but Reichsmarschall was only created for Göring so people knew who would be Hitler's successor in event of an early or unexpected death, thus the current wording ... But, to avoid confusion I will add a note.
 * It's added. ✅ Jonas Vinther (speak to me!) 23:13, 9 November 2014 (UTC)


 * "As a field marshal you played a compelling and influential role in military matters, were tax-exempt, member of the nobility, equal with government officials, under constant protection or escort, and had the right to directly report to the royal family." How was this handled in the Third Reich?
 * The wording fits on how field marshals were treated during the Third Reich - except the part about royal family for obvious reasons. Jonas Vinther (speak to me!) 23:13, 9 November 2014 (UTC)


 * I suggest to red link the three marshals for which Wiki doesn't yet have an article
 * God, I hate red links. Jonas Vinther (speak to me!) 20:58, 9 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Check disambiguation on Emperor Frederick III, Ernst Busch and Prince Friedrich Karl of Prussia
 * Well spotted, will do. Jonas Vinther (speak to me!) 20:58, 9 November 2014 (UTC)
 * All are now fixed. ✅ Jonas Vinther (speak to me!) 22:16, 9 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Regarding "Eduard von Böhm-Ermolli" his article states that his promotion was on 30 October 1940. The list states 31 October 1942, which would make it a posthumous promotion. What is correct?
 * I suggest to put the citation after the date and get rid of the reference column
 * Since the lists are sortable you need to make a comment on how they are sorted initially.
 * Since you included the field marshals of the Luftwaffe, would it make sense to list the Grand Admirals of the Navy?

Comments by Yakikaki

 * Initial comment Very nice clean-up and extension! This list have all the possibilities of becoming a truly great list, IMO. A few questions though: The timeline seems a bit confused. First it states that it was the highest rank "for 75 years". Then it says it has existed since 1631. Then it says it was recreated in 1870, and then abolished in 1945. In the list itself, there is also a gap between 1919 and 1933. So, I assume it wasn't used in the Weimar Republic? Maybe this gap should be explained. The other gap is between a for me unknown time and 1870. Perhaps this could be elaborated? When and why was the rank abandoned? The "for 75 years" could then perhaps be supplemented with the addition "from Germany's unification until the end of WWII" or something like this. And if the kingdoms of Saxony and Prussia were the only pre-unification kingdoms that used the rank, perhaps this should be clarified (the messy history of Germany before unification is a bit infuriating when it comes to these questions, I know - what constituted "Germany" before 1870?). OK, there's some food for thought for now. I'll get back with additional comments. And again, very nice list! Please don't be deterred by these comments, I'm happy to supply what held I can if you need :) Best, Yakikaki (talk) 19:21, 9 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Yakikaki, you have also made some useful comments. Regarding the timeline confusion, the article states the rank had existed since 1631 under a different name, recreated in 1870, and then finally abolished in 1945 - I don't quite see the confusion of this? However, your suggestion about making a text-section for the Weimar Republic, I have implemented, very good suggestion. I have also expanded the lead. Check out the article now and tell me what you think. Jonas Vinther (speak to me!) 23:10, 9 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks, the Weimar addition is clarifying. About the timeline: if the rank was created in 1631 (by whom, one asks, considering there was no unified Germany at the time) and then recreated in 1870, this implies it was abolished sometime between 1631 and 1870. This should then be clarified. One cannot create something in 1631, go on with business as usual and then recreate something which already exists in 1870. Furthermore, I assume the "75 years" are about 1870 to 1945, but there is a gap there during the Weimar era, so the 75 years aren't really correct either (or possibly they are, in theory - was the rank disbanded or just not used?). But the reader gets the information that it was created in 1631, recreated in 1870, abolished in 1945 and for 75 years was the highest rank. The reader does not know why or when it was abolished in order to be recreated in 1870. The reader also doesn't know which 75 years it was the highest rank (between 1631 and 1945 its not 75 but 314 years; but perhaps it wasn't the highest rank from 1631 onwards?). Herein lies the confusion. Another question: was it the highest military rank only in Saxony and Prussia? Not in Bavaria, Württemberg or any other German principality? Yakikaki (talk) 18:08, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

Comments by Nergaal
At a quick glance:
 * the 5 separate tables should be merged and you should add the date the person died (presumably when they finished being ranked as FM)
 * There isn't enough room. Jonas Vinther (speak to me!) 01:48, 10 November 2014 (UTC)


 * "had existed since 1631 under a different name" => what name?
 * Will look into this. Jonas Vinther (speak to me!) 01:48, 10 November 2014 (UTC)


 * how was Hans Georg von Arnim-Boitzenburg given the rank?
 * Why is this important? Jonas Vinther (speak to me!) 01:48, 10 November 2014 (UTC)


 * was abolished in 1945 => what remained as the highest rank after?
 * Will add some words. Jonas Vinther (speak to me!) 01:48, 10 November 2014 (UTC)


 * note a shoudl be partially included in the text
 * I don't understand this? Jonas Vinther (speak to me!) 01:48, 10 November 2014 (UTC)


 * "equal with government officials" +. vague
 * I don't think its vague at all. Jonas Vinther (speak to me!) 01:48, 10 November 2014 (UTC)


 * "constant protection or escort" => by whom? the military?
 * Obviously! Jonas Vinther (speak to me!) 01:48, 10 November 2014 (UTC)


 * quite a few were kings/rulers of countires. mention this in intro
 * I don't think that's nessecary. The lead mentioned it was recreated for two princes and the titles are stated in the tables. Jonas Vinther (speak to me!) 01:49, 10 November 2014 (UTC)


 * notable FM? like Goring and Rommel?
 * Both Göring and Rommel are mentioned in the Nazi Germany table.


 * in general the intro feels too short
 * I don't think so. If you look above you can see someone has suggested the same which I have replied to and acted upon. Jonas Vinther (speak to me!) 01:48, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

Nergaal (talk) 01:37, 10 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your comments. Jonas Vinther (speak to me!) 01:48, 10 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Oppose after a month my comments have not been addressed. The list is probably complete, but it is really uninviting. The table can be improved, and the intro made more interesting. Nergaal (talk) 21:30, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Comments by Noswall59
Comment Hi, the lists themselves are well-ordered and clear. I do echo the previous suggestion about a death column - it looks like it would fit to me, especially if you combined the date and year of promotion columns... However, I do have a couple of queries. Firstly, why is the first table under the section header "Kingdom of Saxony (1806–1918)", when only one of those people included in the table was appointed after 1806? Secondly, perhaps it might also be worth moving the pre-unification tables for Prussia and Saxony (they weren't Germany, and it makes the whole list more complex and fragmented)... I wonder what other reviewers think of this? Regardless, if we are including pre-unification states like Prussia and Saxony (either the Kingdom or Electorate) then presumably we ought to have some reference to other electorates/kingdoms like Bavaria, Hanover, Wurttemburg and the Rhine Palatinate. Even if there were not Field Marshals appointed from these areas, then perhaps, for the sake of completeness, this should be stated; and, if there were, then they ought to be included here too (or in (a) separate pre-unification list(s)). Lastly, I wonder how we know whether this list is complete... has anyone reliably published a list of Prussian or Saxon Field Marshals which we can check? Many thanks, --Noswall59 (talk) 11:42, 10 November 2014 (UTC).
 * Noswall59, thank you for you comments. Regarding the "Kingdom of Saxony (1806–1918)" confusion, the "(1806–1918)" addition is simply meant to tell the reader how long the Kingdom of Saxony lasted, not when the first field marshal of that Kingdom was promoted. Since you, and the others, has asked for it, I have included a death column. Cheers. Jonas Vinther (speak to me!) 15:09, 10 November 2014 (UTC)
 * . Thanks for replying and for adding the death column. Firstly, I am aware of what you intended by the "(1806-1918)" section but my point was that all but one of these Field Marshals were not actually from the Kingdom of Saxony; they were appointed/promoted by the Elector of Saxony, and the electorate was a different political entity (at least in theory), hence it has its own article (Electorate of Saxony) which is distinct from the article on the Kingdom of Saxony. Secondly, you have not acknowledged my other points, which I fear may be a tad more significant than this issue. I do appreciate that you may not be able to respond quickly and that they are big queries, but I am interested to discuss those matters constructively. It will be interesting to see if others will have a say on the matter too. Once again, many thanks, --Noswall59 (talk) 15:32, 10 November 2014 (UTC).
 * And, of course, the same applies to the Kingdom of Prussia - it was actually Brandenburg-Prussia (Brandenburg being an Electorate and Prussia a Duchy) until 1701. --Noswall59 (talk) 15:36, 10 November 2014 (UTC).
 * Noswall59, I'm not an expert on German states and especially not on old German states, so if you can I would appreciate if you correct them (Kingdom of Saxony => Electorate of Saxony etc.). Regarding your other points, I will not be making the lead longer as I believe the current length is fine. You also said you feared some of your other points might be more important and that I have not addressed them. If you still stand by these points, I suggest you explain them to me in laymen's terms one by one. Cheers. Jonas Vinther (speak to me!) 21:10, 10 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Okay, I've corrected the names. The other points are those made in my initial comment; I will itemise them below in detail:
 * That the article does not look at the Field Marshals appointed/promoted in other pre-unification German states, e.g. Wurttemburg, Bavaria, Hanover. Therefore, it cannot be said to be complete. If, as may be the case, there were no appointments from any other German states, then I think this should be mentioned and reliably cited in the article, to clarify to the reader that this is the case. It appears that Yakikaki later said the same thing in his comments above.
 * That there doesn't appear to be a way of me verifying the completeness of the article based on its sources. You have done a very good job at making sure that each person in the table is cited, but I don't see (correct me if I'm wrong) a reliable list of German field marshals referenced. This would be a helpful way for us reviewers to make sure that your list is as complete as it can be. You are, after all, covering a lengthy time period. This is not necessary per see, but would be very helpful.
 * That the lead and other prose is too short and does not summarise the list particularly well or in a way which seems to me to meet the standards of a professional encylopaedia. There is no summary of the appointments, their backgrounds, notable members, their reason for appointment, etc., nor (in much detail) of the rank itself, its history or its function. I can see several royals whose appointments were clearly not based on merit (Prince Arthur, Duke of Connaught, for instance); that is fine, but this could be explained to the casual reader. I am aware that the rank already has its own article, but you should still summarise its history and development. The point of the lead is that it should be able to summarise the topic independent of anything else, so as to provide a concise but useful overview of the article. I believe this lead does not do this enough. See the article Field marshal (United Kingdom), which is a Featured List.
 * Given the reasons mentioned immediately above, it seems sensible to suggest that this article be merged with the Field marshal (Germany) in line with the precedent the British article has set.
 * That, while this article's content is within the scope of its subject, I wonder if it would be better to have a separate article for pre-unification Field Marshals because the political make-up of Germany was so different. Having separate lists for each state also makes it seem more fragmented. This is not a problem with your content, but a general comment which may be a point of further discussion. If we look at the British article I have just cited, it remains within the scope of Kingdom of Great Britain, which was formed in 1707; in this article being nominated, we are talking about a national identity, rather than a political entity. I will leave this one to see what others say, and I won't make it a condition for my review, but I hope it will raise some questions.
 * Edit: The matter is further confused by this article: List of field marshals of the Holy Roman Empire, which seems to overlap with our one. --Noswall59 (talk) 22:10, 10 November 2014 (UTC).
 * Note: Please understand that I appreciate the work you have put into this article and that it has been improved significantly by your efforts; but at present, it seems to fall short of the standards required here. Now, I would like to see this article reach FL standard, and I can see that you already have experience in writing articles of that standard, so I am sure you are capable here too. I do not want to discourage you, and I hope that this article can reach this standard. My advice would be to please take a look at the British article and see if you can't try a similar format here, because the British article does meet the standard and, while the content itself will obviously be different, it's format and length is of the encyclopaedic standard, both in terms of completeness and prose, not to mention the other areas required of a FL. King regards, --Noswall59 (talk) 21:59, 10 November 2014 (UTC).

Comments by Parsecboy

 * Just a quick comment - in the Weimar section, it states that the German Navy was abolished, which is clearly not correct. Parsecboy (talk) 17:48, 10 November 2014 (UTC)
 * True, my mistake. I confused the destruction of the U-boats with total abolishment. Will fix. Jonas Vinther (speak to me!) 21:00, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

comments by Auntieruth55
Nice job cleaning up a mess!


 * As a field marshal you played a compelling and influential role in military matters,[3] were tax-exempt, member of the nobility... How about "Field Marshals played a compelling and influential role...etc.  Also, why are each of these qualities footnoted, rather than simply a foot note at the end of the sentence?
 * I'm very confused about the selection process for this. There were a lot of Napoleonic era field marshals that you have not included.
 * Perhaps it would be more useful to make a list of Field Marshals of the 20th century, or of the Second German Empire....?
 * There needs to be a section on the role of the field marshal, beyond a single para in the lead about it. I'd expand that paragraph into a section that gives examples of the function of a field marshal in different situations.  (military matters, tax exemption, members of nobility, etc.)  auntieruth (talk) 22:41, 10 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Also, I noted in comments above that there is confusion about the titles of states (such as Kingdom of Saxony v Electorate of Saxony). If the link goes to the right historical entity, professionally I would not be concerned about whether I called it a kingdom or an electorate.  Saxony was both a kingdom and its king was an elector, thus making his kingdom an electorate.  The position of electorate gave him rights with selecting the new emperor.  But his status as king was higher on an average day.  So, I've always tried to refer to electors as such when they are in their roles as electors, and kings when they are in their roles as kings.  I got into major discussions with people in the article War of the Bavarian Succession over whether or not Bavaria should be called a Duchy, an Electorate, or a Kingdom.  auntieruth (talk) 20:11, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Just to clarify, Saxony was not actually a kingdom prior to 1806 and, when it became a Kingdom, its kings ceased to be electors (at least, according to the article) and its Electors were not kings until that year; see the List of rulers of Saxony and also the articles on the Kingdom and Electorate of Saxony. To be fair, though, just calling it "Saxony" in the header would probably suffice. Regards, --Noswall59 (talk) 21:47, 11 November 2014 (UTC).


 * As for the big question about "what is Germany": many have asked this, and not answered it. I'd suggest you avoid that question (it's unanswerable) and start with 1871.  Even then, it's a bit dicey because the various states had their own armies, but I think it's more doable under those conditions.  auntieruth (talk) 20:14, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
 * I agree on this issue with auntieruth. Skip the ones from before 1870 and concentrate on making the list really good from then onwards. Earlier field marshals should be listed for their respective entity, e.g. "List of Prussian field marshals", IMO. Yakikaki (talk) 20:33, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
 * As you can see from my comments above, I also agree with this view, --Noswall59 (talk) 21:47, 11 November 2014 (UTC).
 * For the record, nothing in 2014 describes Germany better than Die Nationalelf. In that respect we need to add Jogi Loew to the list. MisterBee1966 (talk) 14:39, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
 * I hear what you all are saying, but don't agree on much of it. And also, just because a list is incomplete, that does not mean it cant be a featured article - look at Bernard Lee on stage and screen. Jonas Vinther (speak to me!) 00:26, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
 * However, the reader (at least I had) would assume the list to be complete. If it is not complete, the reader needs to be made aware of this fact. Having read the other comments here, I have to agree that the suggestion to limit the time frame from 1871 onwards makes a lot of sense. MisterBee1966 (talk) 08:44, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Hi again, I have found a book: Preußisch-deutsche Feldmarschälle und Großadmirale by Jürgen Hahn-Butry (written some time during the Nazi period I think). It is catalogued at OCLC World Cat but I doubt you will find a copy - it seems to be very rare. This does seem to be the only book on this topic, which I find surprising. Nonetheless, it might be worth looking at the German language article, if you've not done so already. It may be possible to add more to the English list by using that as an example. For instance, the German list includes Friedrich Ludwig von Dohna-Carwinden, who was apparently appointed FM in 1747; he is not cited there, but his article on the German wiki  includes a citation which is a reference for his promotion:  (pages 22-23). That book cited might be a useful publication for others too - it appears to be war history book published in the 19th century (see  at the de wiki). Furthermore, I don't know whether there were ever lists of officers published by the German Army - in the UK there is the Army List, published annually. That might be useful if such a thing exists. Also, does Germany have an equivalent to the London Gazette? If so, that might be useful for finding notices of appointments as well. Thanks, --Noswall59 (talk) 01:21, 13 November 2014 (UTC).
 * MisterBee1966, one can, just like the article about Bernard Lee does, add a "this list is incomplete; you can help by expanding it" template. Jonas Vinther (speak to me!) 17:41, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
 * True, but I have my doubts that adding the expand list to this article at this stage makes a compelling argument to convince the reviewers to support your FLC nomination. As mentioned before, I think you would be better off limiting the list to the German Empire and Third Reich time frame. In its current state the article still has multiple issues, from weak lead, to technical issues and now I learn it is also incomplete. To achieve your objective, getting this list to FLC, you would be well advised to embrace some if not most of these suggestions and refrain a little more from pushing back on valid concerns. The choice is yours MisterBee1966 (talk) 18:30, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Noswall59, good job and thanks for finding the book. I would, however, strongly oppose including non-book sources in this article. I spent many hours finding book sources instead of non-book ones, and would hate to see newspapers or whatever in this article. I'm not acting like WP:OWN, merely stating my opinion as the main contributor to this articles possible FA-status. Jonas Vinther (speak to me!) 17:44, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Hi again Jonas, hopefully you will make progress with this. Just to point something out: the London Gazette is not a typical newspaper - it is a government register of appointments and official notices, and is, for that reason, a very reliable source for reporting facts. If Germany has an equivalent (which I imagine it might do) then it is worth exploring and I imagine it would be an entirely suitable source as well. Anyway, in reply to your other comments, I appreciate that you have put a lot of work into finding these references, which I have acknowledged before, but I do feel that you are essentially refusing to make a list more complete by not adding information based on reliable sources (for instance, the example I have given above). You also haven't really answered my point about looking at the German article. There are several examples of omissions in the English one where it can take little effort to find sources by looking on the German wiki. I have given on example above, for another, take a look at Heinrich VI of Reuß-Obergreiz, a FM of Saxony promoted in 1697; he had a long career and has an entry in the Allgemeine Deutsche Biographie (transcribed at the German wikisource here), which is the authoritative biographical dictionary for Germany; it took two clicks to get that reference. Not all are going to be that straight-forward, and it would take a long time to work through that list, but you cannot deny that more information is not accessible out there. The article you cited above about Bernard Lee has been thoroughly researched and it is incomplete because it is clear that the information which would make it complete doesn't appear to exist any more (or at least not in any readily accessible manner); that is different from deciding not to incorporate information for reasons of personal preference, or not including it because it has not been searched out. I do believe, once again, that this article has scope for approaching completeness if this technique were adopted. As MisterBee says above, it is your choice whether you decide to look any further into this matter of completeness, or indeed any of the other points raised by the reviewers here. Regards, --Noswall59 (talk) 23:01, 13 November 2014 (UTC).
 * Noswall59, sorry for the long delay in replying; I actually forgot I even had nominated this for FA-status. Regarding the London Gazette, I have no doubt it's reliable and very trustworthy, I merely rejected the idea of including non-book sources on the grounds that it would look stupid with one or two non-book sources as the article mainly consists of book sources. But, if it can help the article and the nomination, I think it should be included, absolutely. I will be happy to look further into matters, but would appreciate some assistance. I would be happy to see you editing this article without asking for my opinion, as I'm sure it would only improve the article. I just really want to see this article achieve FA-status. Jonas Vinther (speak to me!) 15:20, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

I am not sure how to read this comment. It would help me if you could tell us what actions you intend to take on this article, don't forget that you had nominated the article, not us. I think you need to provide guidance and structure to the feedback you received so far. I am a bit lost now on what you will fix yourself and where you need help. MisterBee1966 (talk) 16:57, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
 * MisterBee1966, to be specific, I would like some help with expanding the lead and adding the remaining field marshals who are not listed. Obviously I have included all I know and could find a source for, but I believe it was Noswall59 who pointed out that some Prussian FM's are missing. Jonas Vinther (speak to me!) 01:01, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Also, I have looked at List of British field marshals, so I understand now the lead could some an expansion, but I don't have any ideas for it. Jonas Vinther (speak to me!) 14:14, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
 * The reviewers have given you a few suggestions already. If I were you, I would first address the question of scope of the article, meaning you have to address the question of what is Germany in this context. With respect to this article, I would limit the scope to the timeframe German Empire onwards. This eases your task significantly. In the lead, remember a Featured Article has to be largely stand-alone, you could give an abstract of German military history pertaining to German Empire, Weimar Republic, Nazi Germany, West and East Germany and the unified Germany of today. Then you could talk about how field marshals fitted into these periods and why they were abolished or did not exist in certain timeframes. You could also talk about how and who appointed field marshals in the various regimes and what role they played. Maybe you could also talk about grand admirals. They held a position similar to a field marshals. I think this is how I would approach the problem. I hope this helps you a little and gives you an idea on how to move forward. MisterBee1966 (talk) 09:07, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
 * . Hi again, I agree with MisterBee on the whole. The scope certainly needs looking at and should allow you to develop the article. I am busy offline at the moment and so I won't commit to anything with regards to this article; I may well contribute in future. I will say that for the lead MisterBee is absolutely right, and you may need to summarise the rank, its seniority, its history, insignia, etc., and then summarise the list of those who held it - how many were there, were there any honorary appointments, perhaps tell us why. Look at explaining why there were no appointments under the Weimar Government and then why there are none after the war - assume the reader knows very little here. Hopefully, in conjunction with the British article, our advice should help you. Best wishes, --Noswall59 (talk) 23:19, 19 November 2014 (UTC).

- SchroCat (talk) 14:05, 3 January 2015 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.