Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of Green Bay Packers starting quarterbacks/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by PresN via FACBot (talk) 12:25, 5 April 2024 (UTC).

List of Green Bay Packers starting quarterbacks

 * Nominator(s): « Gonzo fan2007  (talk)  @ 17:07, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

For quite some time I have been working on List of Green Bay Packers starting quarterbacks and at this point I think it meets all of the FL criteria. There are three items I want to pre-emptively bring up in this nomination though, for clarification: With all that said, I appreciate any feedback and look forward to addressing any concerns. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk)  @ 17:07, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
 * 1) Unlike some other starting quarterbacks lists, this list does not include any statistics. Imho, statistics other than games, starts and QB record is superfluous to this topic and better covered in existing list (in this case, List of Green Bay Packers records, which is described and linked in the See also section). Yards, passes, etc are all accumulated regardless of whether a QB starts or not. Note, WP:FLCR #3(c) states that a FL should not largely duplicate material from another article.
 * 2) There are two existing team quarterback start FLCs: List of Minnesota Vikings starting quarterbacks (passed in Nov 2009) and List of Los Angeles Chargers starting quarterbacks (passed in Jan 2023). You will notice that both utilize a static table instead of a sortable table. I chose a different style table for a couple reasons: first, this is a list of players (specifically starting QBs), thus I feel like the reader expectation is a list of quarterbacks, not a list of seasons. Second, the sortable table provides a lot more functionality to understand who started the most games, who had the best record, etc. I believe this layout also speaks more closely to satisfying WP:FLCR #4 Structure. It is easy to navigate and includes, where helpful, section headings and table sort facilities.
 * 3) Unlike the two existing team quarterback start FLCs, the Packers history dates back well before 1950. In my fairly exhaustive research, there are no reliable sources showing quarterback starts or win/loss record prior to 1950. PFR doesn't list them and even in individual player pages, it only shows total starts, not starts by position (and no QB record). Let's take Arnie Herber, the premier passer in the early era of he NFL. Cliff Christl said this about him: "Although inducted into the Pro Football Hall of Fame as a quarterback, Herber started only two games there during his 11 seasons with the Packers, and both were in his rookie year". Herber started as a right halfback for most of his career. Thus, for this list, the cut-off is 1950, when my source (PFR) provides reliable information showing QB starts. All other pre-1950 Packers QBs aren't included (note, Green Bay Packers starting quarterback navbox still has these included; assuming consensus forms here on this issue and this FLC promotes, I would then utilize this list to update the template).

Source review: Passed
 * Reliable enough for the information being cited
 * Consistent date formatting
 * Consistent and proper reference formatting
 * Appropriate wikilinks where applicable
 * Spot checks on 14 sources match what they are being cited for

Source review comments:
 * Ref 23 – I'm not sure I understand why this is listed as Milwaukee Journal Sentinel as the newspaper. Packersnews.com is part of the USA Today network according to the site.
 * Refs 16 and 33 – Duplicate source (Lynn Dickey packers.com)
 * Refs 17 and 54 – Duplicate source (Bart Starr packers.com)
 * Refs 15 and 52 – Duplicate source (Tobin Rote packers.com)
 * Refs 18 and 35 – Duplicate source (Brett Favre praises staff... Sports Illustrated)
 * What makes quirkyresearch.com a reliable source?
 * I know we talked about the history.com source, so I assume you didn't find a better one. If it helps, I've got a couple sources from the PFHOF that I think would be adequate to verify the portion that the history.com source is there for. Could at least be good to supplement the existing reference, if not replace it.

A relevant and confusing point from the Packers' media guide that supports the 1950 cutoff: Prior to 1950, most players played both offense and defense... Backs were listed as quarterbacks, halfbacks and fullbacks, but were often interchangeable on offense, especially in Curly Lambeau’s Notre Dame Box system. It's no secret that it's painful to determine who was the "starting quarterback" and, as you mentioned, oftentimes teams did not have a quarterback start the game. I've found the same issue that Gonzo did when trying to make up similar lists and determine a player's position, but it gets real murky prior to 1950.

Good work Gonzo, I like how the list came together! Hey man im josh (talk) 19:05, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I think I have addressed all of your comments. Thanks for the reminder and reference to replace the History.com one. The MJS was just my bad, changed to PackersNews. I replaced QuirkyResearch as well. « Gonzo fan2007  (talk)  @ 19:20, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Looks good. Support. Hey man im josh (talk) 19:35, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

Comments

 * Wikilink "quarterback"!!
 * Wikilink "line of scrimmage"
 * "the significance of he position" - missing T off "the"
 * "with team's assigning significant resources" - there should not be an apostrophe in teams
 * "The emergence of he dual-threat quarterback" - T has gone missing agaimn
 * "Five of those quarterbacks though have started over 75% of the team's games" - can you find a way to reword this to convey what I think you are trying to get across? Saying "five QBs started 75% of the games" could imply that QB1 started 70% and the other four 1% each.......
 * "Tobin Rote, the team's primary starter in the 1950s and" - needs a comma after 1950s
 * "and the Lynn Dickey" - *the* Lynn Dickey?
 * "Tobin Rote started 73 games as the Packers quarterback in the early 1950s." - aprostophe needed after Packers
 * Same in the Starr caption
 * Re: winning %, I presume that ties were/are not included in this stat? Because Bratkowski's four wins out of nine games doesn't equal 50%.  Might be worth clarifying this in the tooltip.
 * That's it, I think! -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 15:04, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the review, the only comment I have a question on is the "75% of the games" comment. I see what you are saying, but looking at the preceding and following sentences, I think it makes sense. I state that 33 QBs have started for the Packers, then say that of those 33, 5 make up 75% of the total QB starts. The following sentences then list out those QBs. I think in your example, if one of those QBs started 70% of the games, I would say that instead of saying 5 started 75%. I think the idea is that 5 QBs started 75% of the games, while the other 28 started 25% of the games. This dichotomy of that is the takeaway, with clarification provided in the following sentences and the table. I did make a slight change to the sentence after to try to clarify. Do you have any specific recommendations? « Gonzo fan2007  (talk)  @ 15:44, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
 * How about "Five of those quarterbacks each made over 100 starts and between them started over 75% of the team's games"? -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 15:54, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
 * , I made the change (although its over 70 starts for each). « Gonzo fan2007  (talk)  @ 16:16, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I only looked at the top four rows in the table (when sorted in descending order of starts) because apparently I can't count to five :-D Anyway, happy now to support -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 16:21, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

Pseud 14
Image review: Passed
 * They are members of the North Division of the National Football Conference (NFC) -- the acronym in the parenthetical can be dropped as this is not repeated elsewhere in the article or the tables.
 * Starting in 1950, total wins and losses by a team's starting quarterback began being tracked. -- Perhaps some tweaking here so it doesn't become repetitive. Something like Beginning in 1950, total wins and losses by a team's starting quarterback were tracked
 * That's all from me. Pseud 14 (talk) 15:10, 25 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks . I made your first suggested change. Regarding #2, I left it in there because I feel like "NFC", at least for general football fans, is more readily noticeable than the full "National Football Conference". I also did this because North Division is actually linked to NFC North. Thoughts? MOS:ACRO notes common exceptions for something that is more commonly known by its acronym, which I think NFC is. « Gonzo fan2007  (talk)  @ 16:30, 25 March 2024 (UTC)
 * That makes sense to keep it then. Pseud 14 (talk) 17:10, 25 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Support. Pseud 14 (talk) 17:10, 25 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Images are appropriately licensed
 * Images have alt text
 * Images have succinct captions and are relevant. Pseud 14 (talk) 15:10, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

Promoting. -- Pres N  01:45, 5 April 2024 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.