Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of North Carolina Tar Heels men's head basketball coaches/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by The Rambling Man 07:56, 2 March 2010.

List of North Carolina Tar Heels men's head basketball coaches

 * Nominator(s): Remember (talk) 15:50, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured list because I think it meets all the requirements. Remember (talk) 15:50, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Note: This is a WikiCup nomination. To the nominator: if you do not intend to submit this article at the WikiCup, feel free to remove this notice. Mm40 (talk) 14:10, 13 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Comments from KV5
 * "has gone two seasons without a head coach" - "has gone" would be better as has played
 * Changed to went two seasons without a head coach - hope this is okay
 * "Went two seasons" is informal; I still believe that has played would be better wording. KV5  ( Talk  •  Phils ) 18:39, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Changed to "has played". Remember (talk) 18:53, 13 January 2010 (UTC)


 * "Norman Shepard's 1924 team is the only team that was retroactively awarded a national championship by the Helms Athletic Foundation." - two links to the same article in this sentence
 * Removed first link


 * "to have won an Olympic Gold Medal for coaching basketball" - to win instead of "to have won", and I don't think that "Olympic Gold Medal" is a proper noun; this should likely be Olympic gold medal
 * Revised


 * "Williams is the only coach to have both played and coached" - played for
 * Revised


 * "Norman Shepard is the all-time leader in winning percentage having never lost a game" - comma after percentage
 * Revised


 * Superscript indicators in the table that are at cap height (daggers, clubs, etc.)
 * I am not sure what correction you want me to make here.
 * When there is an indicator in the table, like a dagger, a club, a heart, a spade, etc., you should superscript them, using either the HTML tags or the superscript button in the edit window's toolbar. KV5  ( Talk  •  Phils ) 18:38, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I've added superscript to these indicators. Remember (talk) 18:53, 13 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Remove bold from all of the award names and such in the second part of the key.
 * Done


 * Two coaches are labeled as #17.
 * Whoops. Fixed


 * Instead of "N/A", replace with a centered em-dash.
 * Done.

Hope these comments help. KV5 ( Talk  •  Phils ) 16:04, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
 * They did help. Let me know anything else you see that I should fix. Remember (talk) 18:18, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I will re-review the article later once others comment, but just a note that it's considered good form to allow reviewers to strike their own comments when they feel they are addressed, rather than striking them yourself. KV5  ( Talk  •  Phils ) 18:38, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Sorry. I didn't realize that was the convention.  I will refrain from striking your comments.  Any additional comments are welcome. Remember (talk) 18:53, 13 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Support Good work. KV5  ( Talk  •  Phils ) 20:10, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Comments
 * "The Tar Heels originally did not play within any athletic conference. In 1921, N..." the first sentence sits oddly on its own. Consider merging it with the following sentence to say, okay, they weren't in a conf to start with but they did join one in 1921...
 * Revised to read "The Tar Heels originally did not play within any athletic conference, but joined the Southern Conference in 1921 when the conference was first established.[1] After playing in the Southern Conference for twenty-two years, North Carolina left the conference in 1953 to join the newly created ACC"


 * " North Carolina joined the Southern Conference,[1] and in 1953, North Carolina left the Southern Conference" this reads very poorly to me, so reword it when you merge the sentences per my previous comment.
 * Revised to read "The Tar Heels originally did not play within any athletic conference, but joined the Southern Conference in 1921 when the conference was first established.[1] After playing in the Southern Conference for twenty-two years, North Carolina left the conference in 1953 to join the newly created ACC"


 * "after previous head"... perhaps "former" instead of "previous".
 * Revised


 * "The men's team has had 18 head coaches in its history and has played two seasons without a head coach." not sure the repetition of "head coach" makes this elegant.
 * Anyone have a synonym for head coach?
 * "without one"? The Rambling Man (talk) 16:48, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Revised. Remember (talk) 22:39, 17 January 2010 (UTC)


 * "During those seasons, " goes without saying, doesn't it, that achievements of coaches will be "during those seasons"? Doesn't need to be said.
 * Revised


 * About four or five consecutive sentences with "is the only coach" or "are the only coaches" - makes the prose a little repetitive.
 * I will think of ways to work on this.
 * Okay I ahve revised it. Let me know what you think. Remember (talk) 18:39, 20 January 2010 (UTC)


 * "men's" do you need to repeat that, considering the article title?
 * Which men's are you referring to?
 * You have "men's" in the article quite a bit, but not consistently. Since the list title says "men's", it's clear this is about the "men's" team.  The Rambling Man (talk) 16:48, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I have removed a bunch of them. I think the remaining men's are necessary descriptors but let me know if you feel otherwise. Remember (talk) 17:24, 20 January 2010 (UTC)


 * What's NABC?
 * National Association of Basketball Coaches. Did you want me to add this to the key?
 * Shouldn't use abbreviations without explaining them first. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:48, 16 January 2010 (UTC)'
 * Done. Remember (talk) 22:22, 17 January 2010 (UTC)


 * What's FIBA?
 * International Basketball Federation. Did you want me to add this to the key?
 * Ditto. The Rambling Man (talk)

16:48, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Done. Remember (talk) 22:22, 17 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Same for AP.
 * Associated Press. Did you want me to add this to the key?
 * Ditto. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:48, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Done. Remember (talk) 22:22, 17 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Coaching Awards->Coaching awards.
 * Done.


 * # doesn't sort correctly.
 * Fixed this. Remember (talk) 16:36, 19 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Neither does NCs.
 * Fixed this. At least, I think you wanted it to sort where the dashes are sorted as 0. Let me know if you want it sorted another way. Remember (talk) 16:40, 19 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Cells with en-dashes should sort below numbers.
 * I am having trouble figuring out a way to accomplish this. Any suggestions? Remember (talk) 16:31, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I have figured out a workaround for this. It is not elegant in the coding but it works (and I am not sure there is an elegant way to do this). Remember (talk) 17:21, 20 January 2010 (UTC)


 * I can't recall all of MOS - should you be using spaced en-dashes?
 * If you're talking about in the table where it references the number of national championships, those should actually be colons. KV5  ( Talk  •  Phils ) 19:54, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Done. (I think I did what you wanted).


 * "No official coach [3]" remove space between coach and [3]
 * Done


 * "four olympic medals" shouldn't that be "Olympic"?
 * Done


 * Not sure you need Category:North Carolina Tar Heels basketball with the Category:North Carolina Tar Heels men's basketball head coaches. Is there a more general "List of basketball head coaches" or similar category you could use?
 * There does not appear to be, but I may set up this general category. I will remove the North Carolina basketball category. Remember (talk) 22:03, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

The Rambling Man (talk) 15:06, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I was out sick so that is why I took a while to get back to you. Will get to the rest of the comments when I can. Remember (talk) 11:55, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
 * No rush, hope you feel better soon. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:48, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

I believe I have addressed all of your comments and suggested revisions. Is there anything further?Remember (talk) 18:39, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Comments –
 * Don't you think it's a touch misleading to call their 1971 NIT win a national championship in the table? The NCAA Tournament winner would have been the national champion, not the Tar Heels. Or am I missing something?
 * The NIT used to be very prestigious so I wanted to mention it. From the NIT article - "However, as late as 1970, Coach Al McGuire of Marquette, the 8th-ranked team in the final AP poll of the season, spurned an NCAA bid in protest of his team's placement in the Midwest Region, where his team would have to have played games further away from home than it would if it were in the Mideast Region. The team played the NIT instead, which they won. Such an action would be a violation of NCAA rules today, which prohibits the rejection of NCAA tournament bids."
 * Any suggestions on how I should clarify this or does this explination suffice? Remember (talk) 14:00, 27 January 2010 (UTC)


 * "but joined the Southern Conference in 1921 when the conference was first established." To remove a redundancy in the writing, I suggest switching "the conference" to "it".
 * Revised. Remember (talk) 14:00, 27 January 2010 (UTC)


 * "The program has played 2,687 games in a total of 99 seasons..." The struck portion is some wordiness that can safely be removed without affecting the meaning.
 * Revised. Remember (talk) 14:00, 27 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Reference 4 should have a space before the wikilink to the general refs, and ref 5 needs one after its wikilink.
 * Revised.Remember (talk) 14:00, 27 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Ref 22 needs a publisher.  Giants2008  ( 27 and counting ) 21:38, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Added.Remember (talk) 14:00, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Working on resolving comments above. Remember (talk) 21:47, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
 * OK. Thanks for the review. I have made the changes. Anything else? Remember (talk) 14:00, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

I have one more comment on a second look: I'd recommend spelling out the publishers for references 2, 15 and 22, instead of just using initials.  Giants2008  ( 27 and counting ) 23:03, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Done. Anything else? Remember (talk) 14:16, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

Support – Meets FL standards.  Giants2008  ( 27 and counting ) 21:04, 4 February 2010 (UTC)


 * I would ask to see the three redlinks created, but I know that's more a personal thing than anything actually wrong with the article. I do have one issue though: "Eleven coaches have won the conference regular season with the Tar Heels: Norman Shepard, Monk McDonald, Harlan Sanborn, George Shepard, Bill Lange, Ben Carnevale, McGuire, Smith, Matt Doherty, and Williams." That's ten coaches. Who's #11? Wizardman  Operation Big Bear 06:36, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Just so you know, I am planning on creating the redlinks pages (I have created almost all the other early coaching pages). As for the 11th Coach, it was Walter Skidmore.  I've added to the text.  Let me know if there is anything else. Remember (talk) 13:57, 9 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Support, looks good. Wizardman  Operation Big Bear 04:05, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Comments from 
 * General
 * Links, contributors, dabs, and alt text check out fine.
 * Lead
 * After playing in the Southern Conference for twenty-two years,... you use digits for other double digit numbers, be consistent per MOS:NUM.
 * Revised.
 * The Tar Heels play their home games in the Dean E. Smith Center, which is named after previous head coach Dean Smith. -- which coach (number overall)?
 * Revised.
 * Smith's 879 wins were the most of any NCAA men's Division I coach at the time of his retirement. -- his retirement was when?
 * Revised
 * No explanation as to why there were no coaches in that period mentioned?
 * There was no real explination in the sources. The previous coach left and they did not have another one.
 * That should be mentioned then, not just an empty and blank reason.-- T ru  c o   503 03:28, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Revised.
 * Table
 * The dashed entry in the # column should sort in the order (year) so if it was in 1921-23, it should sort between '20 and '24.-- T ru  c o   503 02:06, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the comments. I am a bit busy in real life, but I will fix these as soon as I can. Remember (talk) 16:02, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Was that last comment done? I don't know since you didn't respond.-- T ru  c o   503 03:28, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Just looked at it now. Not sure what you want done.  The current column sorts according to year so I am not sure what you would like changed. Remember (talk) 14:10, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I fixed this. Dabomb87 (talk) 22:23, 1 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Support -- T ru  c o   503 00:04, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Support In regards to the Harvnb templates, I've fixed two of them, but the other three (13, 20, and 21) won't work because the reference doesn't have an author. Remove the Harvard referencing for those three and cite them normally. Mm40 (talk) 21:22, 1 March 2010 (UTC) Comments from Mm40 (talk)
 * "North Carolina left the conference in 1953" removes redundancy
 * Revised.


 * " which is named after previous" Also, it may flow better with "former" in place of "previous"
 * Revised.


 * Link "National Invitational Tournament" in the lead?
 * Revised.


 * What does "won the conference regular season" mean? Have the best overall regular season record? Best conference regular season record? Winners of the conference tournament?
 * Won the conference regular season means they had the best overall regular season record. Revised


 * It would be helpful is you provide a link the year Smith won the Olympics.
 * Done.


 * "the United States in basketball while also"
 * Revised


 * Reference 6 (Smith's HOF biography) doesn't back up that Smith was the only coach to win the Olympics while coaching a college team
 * It backs up that he was awarded a gold medal at the olympics, but it doesn't state that other north carolina coaches do not have a medal. I don't know if I can cite a source that says all the other North Carolina coaches did not win an olympic gold medal (even though they have not).  I did not think I needed a source to state that specifically.
 * Sorry for not being clearer. The article says "a feat that no other coach has replicated". I'm assuming this means that no other coaches for any school, not just NC. You should clarify as "a feat that no other Tarheels' coach has replicated". Mm40 (talk) 21:58, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Revised


 * "the North Carolina men's varsity" You already say "North Carolina" in the last sentence
 * Revised


 * "Brothers Norman Shepard and George Shepard"
 * revised.


 * I think you can cut out "No coach has had an overall losing record at North Carolina." That's evident from the last sentence
 * Yeah, but I like it. I will remove it if that is consensus but I would rather keep it in.


 * Can the image captions next to the table be varied a bit? Maybe give interesting facts from their term. At least give the years they coached
 * Revised.


 * Please change the spades and clubs to other symbols; I can't tell the difference.
 * Darn, I liked the theme I had going there. Revised.


 * Consider centering the coaches' names
 * I like it the way it is, but if the consensus is to change it, I will change it.


 * You capitalize "Olympic gold medal" differently in the lead and key\
 * Revised


 * Remove the abbreviation "(FIBA)" as it's not used elsewhere in the article
 * Revised


 * You don't distinguish OL vs. CL and OW vs. CW in the key
 * Good catch. Revised.


 * I wouldn't call he NIT a national championship. Today, it's for the best of the teams that didn't make March Madness, so I wouldn't call them "National Champions"
 * But at the time that Smith won, it was pretty prestigious. As I discussed above, the NIT used to be very prestigious. From the NIT article - "However, as late as 1970, Coach Al McGuire of Marquette, the 8th-ranked team in the final AP poll of the season, spurned an NCAA bid in protest of his team's placement in the Midwest Region, where his team would have to have played games further away from home than it would if it were in the Mideast Region. The team played the NIT instead, which they won. Such an action would be a violation of NCAA rules today, which prohibits the rejection of NCAA tournament bids." Any suggestions on how I should clarify this or does this explination suffice? Remember (talk) 14:52, 1 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Why are some awards linked in the table?
 * Because I thought that would be useful to the reader.


 * You can remove commas in the "NCs" table
 * Done.


 * Consider adding a "Totals" bar at the bottom of the table. You can make it sort last (see here for an example)
 * Done.


 * In note 2, is there a link for the Patterson medal?
 * Not a wikilink. Is that what you were looking for?  Also, the actual award does not appear to have its own website discussing it; it is just mentioned in news articles.


 * You can link St. Johns and McGuire is note three.
 * Revised


 * Link Big XII CCOTY in note 11
 * Also, the Big 12 discourages the use of "XII". It should read: Big 12. Also, the conference inherited that quirk from the Big Eight which also discouraged the used of "8" instead of Eight. NThomas (talk) 21:32, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Revised


 * The last general reference should have "pp.", not "p."
 * Revised


 * There should be an ndash (–) in ref 1's title. Also, the work isn't "Southern Conference", so just cut the  parameter
 * Revised


 * Eliminate the  parameter for refs, 2, 9, and 18. The work for ref 16 is "Maryland Athletics". Remove the   parameter from ref 5. The publisher for ref 8 is "CNN Sports Illustrated"
 * Done


 * None of the Harvnb references (refs 3, 4, 12, and 13) work
 * Does anyone know how to fix this? I thought I was doing it right, but I guess I was not.


 * Is that a quote in reference 4? It's not in quotations marks. Mm40 (talk) 01:08, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
 * It is not a quote. I have revised the text anyway.

Thanks for the review. I am still busy in real life, but I will get to these when I can. Remember (talk) 16:18, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Slowly working through all the suggestions. Remember (talk) 15:20, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
 * What is the status of the resolution of these comments? The Rambling Man (talk) 08:03, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I am still slowly working through them all since I am slammed at work. When I nominated the article, I had a lot more time and was more responsive.  I will try to clean up the rest soon. Remember (talk) 14:58, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
 * OK. I have gone through all of the comments and I think I have addressed them all.  Let me know what else I need to do. Remember (talk) 15:06, 1 March 2010 (UTC)


 * I have removed the harvard cites and cited them normally. I think this is what you wanted.  Let me know if there is anything else I should do. Remember (talk) 21:32, 1 March 2010 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.