Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of Norwich City F.C. managers/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by PresN via FACBot (talk) 00:31, 24 May 2017 (UTC).

List of Norwich City F.C. managers

 * Nominator(s): The Rambling Man (talk) & Dweller (talk) 15:56, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

and yours truly are nominating this for featured list. We've working across the divide for the first time in a while, this is another in the series of Norwich/Ipswich featured articles/lists that we have collaborated on. The list is almost secondary as the mighty prose preceding it is thorough, well referenced and (the bits that I didn't do) well written. In light of some of the recent managers nominations, we think this is in keeping with the current standard expected of such lists. We are both dedicated to resolving any and all issues as soon as practicable. As ever, our combined thanks to anyone prepared to give up their time in reviewing this list. Cheers! The Rambling Man (talk) 15:56, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

Just a few comments:
 * Support Great job guys – Ianblair23 (talk) 10:30, 2 April 2017 (UTC)
 * "but most notably in the 1958–59 FA Cup" - I've just never been happy with "notably" in articles, see WP:ITSHOULDBENOTED - I'd normally go for "most significantly" or something like that. The word appears quite a few times through the remainder of the prose too. Any thoughts?
 * Fixed --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 11:38, 30 March 2017 (UTC)
 * "Norwich City was founded as an amateur football club" - what year?
 * Done. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 11:28, 30 March 2017 (UTC)
 * "and we know that he spent the summer of 1903" - as "we know" doesn't appear inside a quotation, shouldn't this be something like "it is known" (ie: using third person)
 * Don't think we need it at all. Deleted. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 11:29, 30 March 2017 (UTC)
 * "remains as one of the truly great periods in Norwich City's history" - though this is a quote, I think a simpler paraphrase like "it is regarded as one of the most successful periods of the club's history" would be better
 * I think this kind of [what would become] editorialising is far better done as a quote from RS --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 11:40, 30 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Okay, but in which case I think it would help to attribute who said the quote - in this case the official history of NCFC (?). The source attributing the quotation is a dead link, incidentally. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont)  12:53, 30 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Attributed to the club. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:54, 30 March 2017 (UTC)

A very informative list about a longstanding team you don't hear too much about outside the sports columns, despite major success from time to time. Well done, chaps. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont)  10:57, 30 March 2017 (UTC)
 * "but bounced back to the top tier the following season after finishing third" - I'm not sure that "bounced back" is particularly encyclopedic
 * Fixed. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:49, 30 March 2017 (UTC)
 * "The Independent described the win in Munich as "the pinnacle of Norwich City's history"" - the source given is the Eastern Daily Press - I can't see where in the linked article that The Independent is mentioned as attribution for the quote
 * Great spot. Probably my fault. Fixed. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 11:16, 30 March 2017 (UTC)
 * "the club's performance nosedived" - "nosedived" - see "bounced back" earlier
 * Fixed. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:49, 30 March 2017 (UTC)
 * "Norwich's spell in the top flight" - same issue, "top flight"
 * Not sure, this seems okay-ish to me. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:49, 30 March 2017 (UTC)
 * "Major success"? I don't think so... thanks for your comments, we'll get to them ASAP.  The Rambling Man (talk) 11:14, 30 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Oi. Watch it. ;-) --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 11:17, 30 March 2017 (UTC)

I think all your comments have been responded to and addressed where appropriate? Thanks for your review. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:49, 30 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Just one issue to follow up, above. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont)  12:53, 30 March 2017 (UTC)
 * done I think. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:54, 30 March 2017 (UTC)

Okay, one more thing is I'm picking up quite a few deadlinks, which are :
 * http://www.canaries.premiumtv.co.uk/page/History/0,,10355~1025325,00.html
 * http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-5182545.html
 * http://www.canaries.co.uk/page/History/0,,10355~1025325,00.html
 * http://www.canaries.co.uk/page/History/0,,10355~1023784,00.html
 * http://www.canaries.co.uk/page/History/0,,10355~1025327,00.html
 * http://www.canaries.co.uk/page/History/0,,10355~1025326,00.html

I assume most of these can be fixed relatively straightforwardly with a Wayback Machine link. Ritchie333 (talk) <sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)  12:57, 30 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Done, I think, but one or two were already there with archive urls. Could you check again please?  Ta.  The Rambling Man (talk) 19:45, 30 March 2017 (UTC)
 * http://www.canaries.co.uk/page/History/0,,10355~1025327,00.html is still being reported as dead. I'm going off this script, btw <b style="color:#7F007F">Ritchie333</b> <sup style="color:#7F007F">(talk) <sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)  20:52, 30 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Got it I think. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:20, 30 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Yup, that works. <b style="color:#7F007F">Ritchie333</b> <sup style="color:#7F007F">(talk) <sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)  21:35, 30 March 2017 (UTC)

Support - no more concerns, everything checks out <b style="color:#7F007F">Ritchie333</b> <sup style="color:#7F007F">(talk) <sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)  21:35, 30 March 2017 (UTC)

Comments by Dudley
 * The first thing I look for in any article about a football club is what division they are in. I suggest adding at the end of the lead that as of May 2017 they are in the Championship.
 * "to ever defeat Bayern Munich at the Olympic Stadium" I think this could do with explanation as there are many Olympic stadiums, and you have to go through the linked article to find that this was Bayern's home ground from 1972 to 2005.
 * "according to Eastwood" This needs explanation such as "according the offical history of the club by John Eastwood"
 * "but by then the club had secured their first professional manager, John Bowman" Why "but"? I would say "and"
 * "The earliest known recorded link" "known recorded" sounds a bit awkward. I would delete recorded as superfluous.
 * "although at this time the club nickname was still "Citizens"" I would delete the word "still" as it is the first time this has been mentioned. Is it known why they were called citizens?
 * "The new appointee was James McEwen" This reads as if you have said Bowman left Maybe "In [year] James McEwen was appointed"
 * "the club was rescued from liquidation, reformed, with Archie Macaulay appointed manager." The grammar is not right here.
 * "A highly successful first season saw promotion back to the First Division" You have not said that they had been relegated.
 * I got confused what divisions were being referred to with the changes of name for the second tier from second to first to championship. Some clarification would help.
 * "Darren Huckerby" - "player Darren Huckerby"?
 * No change needed but is it common that clubs on a similiar level to Norwich have never had a foreign manager? Dudley Miles (talk) 11:52, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks Dudley, I'll get to these as soon as I can. In answer to your question, I asked myself that too and compared it to List of Ipswich Town F.C. managers, a team on a similar level (and in a similar location) who also have not had any foreign (i.e. non-UK) managers.  So not that remarkable.  The Rambling Man (talk) 12:23, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
 * I've made a number of changes to reflect your comments. The only one I haven't addressed directly is the naming of divisions whic really I would find difficult to do elegantly.  That's really the task of another article. Thanks for your comments! The Rambling Man (talk) 07:13, 18 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Support. A first rate article. A couple of suggestions. 1. I would make clear that the reason Huckerby's complaint was controversial was that he was a Norwich player at the time. 2. I think it would help to add a note along the lines of: "The second tier of English football was called the Second Division from 1892 to 1992, the First Division from 1992 to 2004, and the Championship since 2004." Dudley Miles (talk) 20:20, 18 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks Dudley, I've hopefully clarified the first point, but I'm still struggling to work out where the note goes. Any thoughts?  The Rambling Man (talk) 20:33, 18 May 2017 (UTC)
 * How about after "He arrived at the club before the 1992–93 inaugural season of the English Premier League." - maybe changing the note to "When the Premier League started in 1992, the second tier changed its name from the Second Division to the First Division. It was renamed again as the Championship in 2004." Dudley Miles (talk) 22:04, 18 May 2017 (UTC)
 * - made a stab at it.. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:17, 19 May 2017 (UTC)

Comments from Cassianto
I've only just seen this and wished I'd seen it sooner. I've made a couple of corrections as I've gone. There's some things that have become immediately obvious that I didn't want to go ahead an fix without garnering views first. I originally posted this on the talk page as I noticed the nomination had finished, so thanks to Rambling Man for allowing me the chance to comment here by re-opening it. Note: I know about as much about football than I do about neuroscience. If any of it doesn't make sense, especially my comments around "divisions" and "tables", then please assume your version. As with all my comments, please feel free to implement or disregard any of them at your discretion. Here goes:

Early years
 * → "During the club's early years, there was no manager." Or "During the club's early years, it was was without a manager". Or "According to the club's history, it was without a manager when it was newly formed..."
 * Done. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:03, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
 * is this a book? The sentence is written like it is? If so, could it be clarified and perhaps mentioned if it is?
 * Done. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:03, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Were they ousted?  If so, I'd say so.
 * Done. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:03, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
 * -- I'm not sure of the conjunction here. It is far too unrelated to the initial sentence.
 * Adjusted. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:03, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
 * the adverb of "also" here is not appropriate for a new paragraph, IMO. Perhaps say: "Bowman took a place in Norwich City history..." or "Bowman has a place in Norwich City history..."
 * Adjusted. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:03, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
 * -- perhaps place inverts around canaries, or are you actually explaining the link between NUFC and the bird itself?
 * It's the link between NCFC (not NUFC, that's a different club!) and real canaries. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:03, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
 * I told you my football knowledge was questionable.  Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   14:41, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Three things: A far too informal use of the word "Scot" for a featured article, IMO. 2). What was he appointed as? and  3). I've heard of staying as long as you can in order to get the prized gold watch on long service retirement, but surely, after 110 years, even McEwen must've gone by now!
 * Adjusted. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:05, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Would it be safe to assume that most would've heard of "travelling expenses"? If so, we may have a spot of overlinking. Also, the txt this is in, is this a quote from somewhere? I was always led to believe we don't link in quotes?
 * Unlinked. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:05, 22 May 2017 (UTC)

Rise to the top division
 * although not strictly illegal in the world of punctuation, I cannot help but feel a colon would be better suited.
 * Re-punc'ed. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:14, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
 * -- unfortunate that they were the third team in the Third Division, but it doesn't escape the even more unfortunate fact that this third/third repetition occurs. How about: "Norwich were the third-ever Division Three team to reach the FA Cup semi-final."?
 * Not really, it was always known as the Third Division, not Divison Three... The Rambling Man (talk) 12:14, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Unavoidable then, I'd say.  Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   14:41, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
 * -- and again here, how about: "Norwich were promoted to the Second Division after finishing behind Southampton, who secured first place."?
 * Reworded, slightly differently from your suggestion. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:14, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Fine.  Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   14:41, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
 * -- What value does "on the spot" add? He resigned and the immediacy of it, as far as I can see, is wholly irrelevant, unless of course it wasn't? Also, "The new man in charge..." is less preferable to "The new manager" or "John Bond took over as manager" or something similar...
 * Resigning immediately after a defeat is vanishingly rare, in fact I can't think of another example. Reworded the Bond thing. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:14, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Fine.  Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   14:41, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Why do we omit a comma after the first "but" in "...a fire gutted the old Main Stand on 25 October 1984 but on the pitch", but use one later for "In the final, they beat Sunderland 1–0, but in the league..."?
 * Comma added. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:22, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
 * -- assuming one knows why there was a ban in place? As a non-follower, I have no idea.  Also, the year range jars a little; I'd suggest: "He kept Norwich in the top tier and the following season Norwich finished fourth, which, like the 1986–87 season, would have been enough for 1989–90 UEFA Cup qualification..."
 * The ban is noted in the Heysel Stadium article which is linked but I've added a section link too. Your suggestion repeats the rapid repetition of Norwich, so I've re-worded that... The Rambling Man (talk) 12:22, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
 * -- clumsy conjunction here.
 * Reworded, but suboptimally I think, feel free to tweak it yourself. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:22, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
 * No need.   Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   14:41, 22 May 2017 (UTC)

Premier League, Europe and club centenary
 * -- I would think it entirely impossible for a paper to say this, a journalist from the paper, would be more likely.
 * Reworded. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:38, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
 * a spot of editorialising here.
 * Shock's off. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:38, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
 * -- as Mayor? Councillor? Or Everton F.C.?
 * Since Everton's already been linked and this is all about football management, I think that stands up to scrutiny. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:38, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
 * What benefit does the inverts have around "to earn a decent salary"? It would be just as impactive without them.
 * I guess "decent salary" doesn't read particuarly encyclopedically. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:38, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Hard to paraphrase without breaching OR/POV/PEACOCK or some combination thereof. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 13:57, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
 * "Decent" could be changed, although it could be attributed to a quote or person; i.e, "Walker considered his salary to be good".  Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   14:41, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
 * The definite article is far more superior to use in a BritEng article compared to the American way of saying things, even more so, here. This occurs elsewhere in the article, but it is a matter for either one of you to adopt or disregard.
 * Added. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:38, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Maybe here, too.
 * The added. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:44, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
 * As we speak of Walker in the previous sentence, and no one else, I'd use a pronoun here.
 * Removed quick Walker repeat. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:44, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Please check for overlinks to Bryan Gunn.
 * Reduced overlinking. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:44, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
 * "shock", again.
 * Removed "shock". The Rambling Man (talk) 12:44, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
 * -- Watch for caps...
 * The Championship is the formal name of the league below the Premier League.
 * Fine.  Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   14:41, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
 * There maybe an overlink to Alan Irvine, but for the life of me, I can't find it. Is there a tool that can be used to check for overlinks? There always used to be.
 * Not overlinked, yes there is a tool, have a look in my monobook.js. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:44, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks, and shamelessly nicked for future use.  Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   14:41, 22 May 2017 (UTC)

And that's it, I think. I'll have another read through when you're done. Ordinarily, and with this amount of comments, I would've opposed. But I'm confident that these minor issues can be fixed or discussed to the benefit of the article, especially with you two at the helm. Good work and I now understand a subject a little bit better than I did before.  Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   16:42, 21 May 2017 (UTC)
 * All addressed and/or responded to, thanks! The Rambling Man (talk) 12:44, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
 * You are very welcome. Support.   Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   14:41, 22 May 2017 (UTC)

Closing as re-promoted! -- Pres N  12:11, 23 May 2017 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.