Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of Olympic records in swimming/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was not promoted by User:The Rambling Man 13:58, 19 September 2008.

List of Olympic records in swimming
Ho hum, dare I try two in a row? It's another comprehensive, illustrated and cited list. It may even be interesting to read? I hope so. All comments gratefully received, supports even more so! The Rambling Man (talk) 19:18, 7 September 2008 (UTC)


 * A few questions:
 * Is there a reason why the open water swimming events aren't included?
 * Should this page include records from defunct events like the 1000 m or underwater swimming or should it be limited to current events?
 * Is there a way to add which records were set in the finals of events, and which were set in heats or semi finals?
 * -- Scorpion0422 19:29, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Good questions. Firstly, the easy question - this should be limited to un-defunct records.  Perhaps you'd like me to clarify that in the text if it's not clear already?  Secondly, the open swimming events - this edit from someone who seems to be expert started me off feeling a little nervous about including the marathon events.  I had started to do so and was reverted.  The IOC seem to have no clear indication that these events have IOC-sanctioned records.  If you could point me otherwise then so much the better.  The Rambling Man (talk) 19:34, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, it wouldn't hurt to clarify that in the text. As for the marathon events that's a bit trickier, maybe you should ask at WP:OLYMPICS. -- Scorpion0422 19:36, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
 * As for the marathon, probably right. Per the finals or heats, then is it particularly pertinent?  I'm happy to try and dig back into archives forever to find out exactly the circumstances but to be fair, this is a list of the records, who gained them, and where.  The Rambling Man (talk) 19:40, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
 * It's really more of a curiosity thing than anything because while reading through I was wondering who actually won a gold medal with that record and who didn't. -- Scorpion0422 19:59, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Fair point. It may take some time to find that information out as it's not necessarily clear from the sources I've found yet.  If you consider it essential then, by all means, I'll do my best! The Rambling Man (talk) 20:24, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
 * On quick glance it seems obvious that the majority were in the final. However, would you prefer I go through and double-cite (if required) those which weren't?  Not sure it's more than just for interest but if you consider it "essential" for the FL then who am I to disagree...?! The Rambling Man (talk) 21:08, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Clarified the "defunctness" of the records (can't believe that's a real US word!). I'll keep looking at the marathon.  The Rambling Man (talk) 19:43, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

One more (possibly) final thing, rather than continually linking to "swimming at the ____ Olympics" could you link to that event's page? ie. Swimming at the 2008 Summer Olympics - Men's 100 metre breaststroke. -- Scorpion0422 19:59, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Well yes, of course. If I'd have known those pages existed then I'm sure I'd already have done it!  Cheers for the pointer.  The Rambling Man (talk) 20:24, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Ah, hang on - you mean in the Games column? I have a nasty feeling that may constitute an "easter egg" style link... but, you're right in that it seems like a more relevant link.  So, should I change the column entirely to reflect not the Games but the portion of them, or just deal with the fact it's a little "easter"ish?  The Rambling Man (talk) 20:30, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
 * No, no need to answer, I see it clearer now I'm looking at the markup. All good, I'll change.  The Rambling Man (talk) 20:40, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Got that. Hope it works for you! The Rambling Man (talk) 20:53, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Footnotes now added for those records which occurred outside of gold medal-winning performances. The Rambling Man (talk) 07:27, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Scorpion, there doesn't seem to be an explicit statement that marathon records aren't counted but this official link talks about all records broken and doesn't include them. Also, this official IOC records search page doesn't provide marathon results when searching under Aquatics-Olympic Records.... Trying to prove a negative is proving, well, challenging! What do you suggest? The Rambling Man (talk) 18:09, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I think Andrwsc is partially right. They do keep records in canoeing (I remember because during the games Adam van Koeverden broke one) but I think they are unofficial records. This is probably the situation with open water swimming. For now, I suggest keeping them out. -- Scorpion0422 15:27, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
 * So have I dealt adequately with your comments thus far? Cheers for your input.. The Rambling Man (talk) 15:30, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes. I can't support because I'll be closing this one, but you do have my approval. -- Scorpion0422 15:50, 10 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Comments
 * The International Olympic Committee recognises the fastest performances in pool-based swimming events at the Olympic Games. - recognises --> recognizes
 * No need really, BritEng vs USEng issue. The Rambling Man (talk) 07:09, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Hmm, I feel that the note about the world records should go at the bottom or be inserted into a separate row. it just looks awkward up there.
 * This has been discussed before and the general consensus was that because you could navigate from the TOC to the Women's records and not be aware of the key, so hence it's added in both places, prominently. We tried making it smaller, adding it in a separate table etc but this final placement seemed most useful.  The Rambling Man (talk) 07:09, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
 * The record IMO, should be right aligned and the character representing the world record should go to the left, it makes the table flow better (in it's appearance)
 * Well, on my monitor the records are right-aligned and the diamond is on the left. Looks fine in IE7 and Safari. The Rambling Man (talk) 07:09, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
 * My fault, I meant left aligned.-- S R X  11:25, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, right aligning the numbers means that the minutes, seconds and hundredths all line up rather nicely so I think I'll leave it as is unless anyone else thinks otherwise... The Rambling Man (talk) 18:09, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I think the record should be made sortable, I would like to sort to see who has the best record, and things in that nature. S R X  23:38, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Hmm, I thought about this but considered it virtually useless as each event is different, their relative records aren't relevant. I'm not convinced it's required.  Cheers. The Rambling Man (talk) 07:09, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Comments
 * Current ref 3 (Bejinig 2008 Official Site) has the publisher in the link title, should probably be outside it.
 * Otherwise, sources look okay. Links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:16, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Cheers Eadglyth, fixed. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:09, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

"The International Olympic Committee recognises the fastest performances in pool-based swimming events at the Olympic Games." Is it only the IOC that recognises these as Olympic Records? Why isn't the term mentioned? Plenty of non-pool swimming events are held and have historically been held, so why are they excluded? (Especially since River Seine is mentioned) Are they not Olympic Records? Multiple problems there. And uncited. More to come... --Dweller (talk) 11:32, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Comments from Dweller
 * First sentence bugs me:
 * No, it's not only the IOC that recognises them but it doesn't say only the IOC. But I can rephrase.  Actually I think only one non-pool swimming event is held, the marathon swimming for which the IOC do not hold a world record.  Other aquatic events do not fall under the category of swimming as far as the IOC are concerned.  Also, there are no IOC records held that I can find for defunct records, e.g. the underwater obstacle race or the "plunge for distance" events.  If it helps, I'll include a better description of the scope, i.e. non-defunct events, although I felt that was adequately covered in the note "include only those events which are currently recognised by the IOC as Olympic events".  I think you're asking me to prove a negative.  Since the IOC do have records of these events available to me, and I sought to exclude them from the scope, citing that they are not records is a problem as well. The Rambling Man (talk) 11:48, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
 * For comprehensiveness, I do believe that dDefunct events need to be included, but separated from "live" ones. If the IOC decides to drop some of the current events (which would be a good thing, but I digress!) the records wouldn't cease to exist because the event is no longer in favour.
 * As above, the scope of the list is constrained to swimming events currently recongised by the IOC in the Olympics. If you want to increase the scope to include defunct records then perhaps we ought to send List of Olympic records in athletics over to FLCR as it didn't include them either (e.g. standing jump etc).  The Rambling Man (talk) 11:48, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Comments from Andrwsc
 * I don't see the need for the text in the lede from "Men's swimming has been part of the Summer Olympics..." through to the end. The discussion of swimming from 1896–1904 is tangential to this article. It might be appropriate for the lede of Swimming at the Summer Olympics, but seems out of place here, on an article specifically about records.  If it is desired to include a mention of the history of Olympic records, then the first official report that specifically mentions them for swimming is from the 1912 Games (page 1165 of the PDF file):
 * That document also lists a record for the obsolete 400m breaststroke, so that might be interesting for this list per comments above. I cannot find any source that shows an Olympic record for defunct events prior to 1908, so adding them for "comprehensiveness" would be original research, would it not?  The 1908 report has two mentions of Olympic records in the prose text (for 100m and 1500m freestyle), but that's all.  Hope this helps — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 17:09, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
 * That document also lists a record for the obsolete 400m breaststroke, so that might be interesting for this list per comments above. I cannot find any source that shows an Olympic record for defunct events prior to 1908, so adding them for "comprehensiveness" would be original research, would it not?  The 1908 report has two mentions of Olympic records in the prose text (for 100m and 1500m freestyle), but that's all.  Hope this helps — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 17:09, 19 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Note: The nominator (i.e. me) has withdrawn this FLC due to lack of support, lack of interest, and a general idea that defunct records should be included despite the fact they are unobtainable. Cheers to all who have contributed.  The Rambling Man (talk) 17:14, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Hmm. As the original author of that list, I am certainly supportive and interested, and I just gave you a reliable source for a record for a defunct event.  If you need more support, please let the WP:WikiProject Olympics folks know about this nomination.  I have seen several Olympic-related articles and lists lately that have been worked on by non-project members for featured content status, which is great, but there is lots of support for you if you only care to ask for it.  Please reconsider your withdrawal—I don't think it's necessary to do that. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 17:29, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I appreciate that. Perhaps you'd consider taking on the mantle and pushing the list on through.  It's exceeded its ten-day limit already so that's why I (as an FL director) withdrew it.  Feel free to continue with it.  The Rambling Man (talk) 17:45, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.