Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of Presidents of the Bharatiya Janata Party/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by PresN via FACBot (talk) 00:25, 18 July 2018 (UTC).

List of Presidents of the Bharatiya Janata Party

 * Nominator(s): Yashthepunisher (talk) 16:13, 14 June 2018 (UTC) & Vanamonde 

This is my 10th tryst with FLC and my first attempt on a politics related list. As always, hope to receive constructive criticism. Yashthepunisher (talk) 16:13, 14 June 2018 (UTC)


 * Yash, thanks for bringing this here. As the page creator, and the major contributor to the Bharatiya Janata Party page, I do wish you had asked for my comments before bringing this here: I'd have been willing to co-nominate, had you asked. Also, given that the first two paragraphs of the lead are basically copied from the main party page, you are required to provide attribution in the edit summary: see Copying within Wikipedia. The first part of the lead is okay, but you've taken two paragraphs from the four-paragraph BJP lead, which makes it very choppy. I'll try to work on this tomorrow. I also think the summary of the contents of the list could be a bit more detailed; we should cover the fact that Rajnath Singh had multiple terms, for instance. Finally, the image licensing needs a check; I'm particularly uncertain about the licensing of the election symbol, because the copyright certainly does not belong to the person who uploaded the image. Vanamonde (talk) 17:07, 14 June 2018 (UTC)
 * My apologies. I wasn't aware of the fact that you are the creator of this list. I have added you as a co-nominator. Also, I will rephrase the sentences that have been taken from the parent article. And should we remove the election symbol then? Yashthepunisher (talk) 02:32, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure about the image. Let's wait for some other comments here, and if nobody can help clear it up we can ask Nikkimaria or some other image-licensing expert. I'll try to do some more work on the prose in a little while. Vanamonde (talk) 04:56, 15 June 2018 (UTC)
 * That image is no good, I've nominated it for deletion on Commons (And came *this close* to just speedily deleting it myself). Courcelles (talk) 01:09, 17 June 2018 (UTC)
 * I wonder if you'd do us the favor of checking the other images here. I'm a bit uncertain about a couple, particularly those from Narendra Modi's flickr account (those list NM as the author, but he's in most of the photos). Vanamonde (talk) 09:46, 7 July 2018 (UTC)
 * As those are derivative works of already deleted images, I've speedily deleted them. Courcelles (talk) 17:44, 7 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Much appreciated: do the others look okay? Vanamonde (talk) 18:23, 7 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Just an FYI to anyone watching this: after some thought, I think the table could use prose for each entry, and I will work on adding this. Suggestions are welcome. Vanamonde (talk) 17:08, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Done, FTR. Vanamonde (talk) 12:05, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

Comments
 * Links should not be bolded as per MOS:BOLDAVOID.
 * Reworded. Vanamonde (talk) 17:06, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
 * The image is obviously copyrighted so please replace it.
 * I've removed it; any replacement will have the same copyright problem. Vanamonde (talk) 17:06, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
 * You can link Prime Minister of India.
 * Done Vanamonde (talk) 17:06, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
 * A term like Hindu nationalism is too wide to be associated with the BJP. I think that the Hindutva is more appropriate (as BJP is not a far-right party like the Shiv Sena, and officially they call Hindutva as their ideology).
 * True. The Hindu nationalism article is far too general to describe the BJP's ideology in any case. Link piped, as "Hindutva" is a technical term not widely understood, and is used virtually synonymously with Hindu Nationalism with respect to recent events by most reliable sources. Vanamonde (talk) 17:06, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
 * You can add some blank space for those Presidents who don't have a pic on Commons. (have a look at List of chief ministers from the Bharatiya Janata Party)
 * Done. Vanamonde (talk) 17:06, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
 * File:Venkaiah Naidu 2 (cropped).jpg is a better pic for the VP.
 * Done. Vanamonde (talk) 17:06, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
 * You need to add some more technical details about the post of BJP President: such that a single term consists of 3 years and one cannot have more than 2 consecutive terms. Use the BJP constitution as the source.
 * Added details. Vanamonde (talk) 09:51, 30 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Add the table caption. Bharatiya  29  14:03, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure what you mean. Vanamonde (talk) 17:06, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
 * I have addressed all your comments save the last, which I do not understand: please have another look. Vanamonde (talk) 09:51, 30 June 2018 (UTC)
 * It is worth mentioning that Naidu went on to become the first VP from the BJP.
 * He wasn't, though. Bhairon Singh Shekhawat was elected Vice-President in 2002, and had been a BJP member since the party's founding. Vanamonde (talk) 09:09, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Forgot about Shekhawat, my bad.
 * The allegations that were made against Gadkari turned out to be false; this fact should be mentioned to maintain an NPOV. Bharatiya  29  08:42, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Do you have a source for that? I'm struggling to find one. It's particularly tricky given that he wasn't, as far as I'm aware, ever tried in court, so he couldn't have been acquitted; he was just forced to resign because of the controversy, whether justified or not. Vanamonde (talk) 09:09, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Gadkari was cleared by the IT dept. Bharatiya  29  14:20, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
 * I'm aware that Gadkari, unlike Laxman, was never convicted of anything (or even tried) so I'm amenable to mentioning that. But this source is really hot air, because the only substance it is based on is a statement saying "there is no enquiry/investigation presently pending". That's quite meaningless; and we would be verging on OR if we used it. Can you help find a better source here? Vanamonde (talk) 14:44, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
 * I think this matter is too vague to be included in the article. The current version seems okay to me. Yashthepunisher (talk) 14:55, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

Commments by Sagavaj Other than those, it looks good to me. Sagavaj (talk) 20:08, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Support Bharatiya  29  08:13, 7 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Thank you. Vanamonde (talk) 09:39, 7 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Reference 8 looks incomplete and it links to further reading section. I don't know much on how to cite a book or publication but is that allowed? Reference 4 and 8 are pointing to same thing.
 * Both the references are different pages taken from the same book. That is how we cite books. Yashthepunisher (talk) 04:15, 30 June 2018 (UTC)
 * In reference 7, BBC News must be italicized.
 * Done. Yashthepunisher (talk) 04:15, 30 June 2018 (UTC)
 * In reference 6, there is no access date.
 * Accessdates are not mandatory. Yashthepunisher (talk) 04:15, 30 June 2018 (UTC)
 * But they are helpful...so I've added this one. Vanamonde (talk) 04:27, 30 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Prose looks fine but you didn't mention what is the normal term for the party president. Is he elected annually? Mention it if there's something like that.
 * Added. Vanamonde (talk) 09:51, 30 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Suggestion : Can you make either align the table to center or may be as suggested earlier in this discussion, fill it with some prose? It looks like table seems to be in a corner when the article is opened.
 * Done, FTR. Vanamonde (talk) 12:05, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Support. Good work. Happy to support this nomination. Sagavaj (talk) 12:24, 30 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Thank you. Vanamonde (talk) 09:39, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

Comments by Dudley

 * "As of 2018, it is the country's largest political party in terms of representation in the national parliament and state assemblies, and it is the world's largest party in terms of primary membership." This is dubious on several counts. 1. You say 2018 but the source is 2015. 2. A newspaper report of claims by party officials is not a reliable source. 3. I assume that primary membership means personal as opposed to through affiliated organisations, but the source makes no such distinction. 4. The article on the Chinese Communist Party gives a membership of 89,450,000, higher than that claimed for the BJP.
 * Thanks for your comments. This point is a bit complicated. 1) Yes, the source is from 2015, so I'll have to fix that. 2) While it's true that the source for this is likely to be the party itself, there is a source which makes the claim in it's own voice. 3) I've used "primary membership" simply because that's what most sources say. 4) The article on the communist party actually also says that the BJP is larger (in the body of the article) but more importantly, the BJP claimed to have hit 110 million a few months later . Where does that leave us? I would be okay with attributing the claim to the party: "The party states that ... which would make it..." Personally, I think it's a meaningless statistic; you need to go through an application process which rejects more than it accepts to be a CPC member, but the BJP is actually soliciting members. So I'm not opposed to dumping that fact altogether, but I suspect that would lead to disagreement. Vanamonde (talk) 06:30, 12 July 2018 UTC)
 * Addendum: I've made the change to attributing the claim to the party, but I'm not too happy with the wording, as we're not being completely faithful to the source. Further suggestions are welcome. Vanamonde (talk) 06:37, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
 * They got 170 million votes in 2014 and claim a membership of 110 million. That does not seem credible. I would state it as a claim by the party and leave out world's largest party, which is very dubious as you say. I am not clear why you think the wording is not faithful to the source. Dudley Miles (talk) 19:52, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
 * I'm fine with that, and I've made the change. I was not too happy about saying "which would make it the world's largest" when the sources were saying "is the world's largest", but that's moot now. Vanamonde (talk) 05:46, 13 July 2018 (UTC)


 * A few words explaining Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh and Ram Janmabhoomi movement would be helpful for non-expert readers.
 * I've added something, but the Ram Janmabhoomi movement is difficult to encapsulate in a sentence, so please let me know if more detail is require. Vanamonde (talk) 06:30, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
 * "Ram Janmabhoomi movement, an agitation to build a temple" Saying a movement is an agitation sounds odd. I would change to "which was agitating". Dudley Miles (talk) 19:52, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
 * So changed. Vanamonde (talk) 05:46, 13 July 2018 (UTC)


 * I am confused about the term 'Indian Union government'. Indian Union links to Dominion of India, but Union government links to Government of India. Does the word 'union' indicate that India has a federal system?
 * Yes, India has a federal system, but the accepted term for the Indian government is "union government" (as opposed to "federal government" in the US). In retrospect, though, I think it's clear enough without that; so I've just removed the term. Vanamonde (talk) 06:30, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
 * What are 'party subsidiaries'?
 * party subsidiaries are things like it's women's wing, youth wing, farmer's wing, minority wing, etc, etc. There's a very large number; I've mentioned two in the lead to help explain the term. Vanamonde (talk) 06:30, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
 * "National and State councils" - another term which assumes the reader knows the BJP structure.
 * I'm not sure what to do here. These are National-level and state-level councils, with members drawn from a variety of sources, and serving a variety of functions. I could remove the terms and just say "drawn from representative bodies within the party"; would that be better? Or would you prefer a longer description of these councils? Vanamonde (talk) 06:30, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
 * I would just add "party" before "National" and that will make clear that they are BJP bodies. Dudley Miles (talk) 19:52, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Ah I see the problem now. Done. Vanamonde (talk) 05:46, 13 July 2018 (UTC)


 * "RSS". Abbreviations should be shown first in brackets after the full name as Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS).
 * Done. Vanamonde (talk) 06:30, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
 * You say the term is three years, but early presidents appear to have served five years.
 * My understanding is that the first two leaders served two terms of three years each. Vanamonde (talk) 06:30, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Advani " has been the longest serving president covering three terms". But he served two periods of five years and one of one year, which would mean more than three terms of three years. Maybe better to say "three separate periods". Dudley Miles (talk) 19:52, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Done. Vanamonde (talk) 05:46, 13 July 2018 (UTC)


 * In general, I think this article assumes too much knowledge of the BJP in readers. Dudley Miles (talk) 17:28, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
 * I'm happy to hear more suggestions on how to make it accessible. Vanamonde (talk) 06:30, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
 * I think it is much clearer now. Dudley Miles (talk) 19:52, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
 * I think I've got everything; let me know if there's anything else. Thanks for the review. Vanamonde (talk) 05:46, 13 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Support. Looks good now. Dudley Miles (talk) 09:08, 13 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Cheers. Vanamonde (talk) 09:49, 13 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Comments by BeatlesLedTV
 * Add alt text to pics
 * Done
 * Table needs scope rows
 * Done. Vanamonde (talk) 11:22, 15 July 2018 (UTC)
 * You have individuals who have took office multiple times as their original number in parentheses. I find this odd but if other editors are fine with it then leave it.
 * Agree. Removed.
 * 'References' → 'Ref(s)'
 * Done
 * and reverted, before I saw this comment, but why use an abbreviation when the full form doesn't cost anything?

Everything else looks good. Great job! BeatlesLedTV (talk) 19:53, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Is there a pic you can put at the top? Such as the election symbol?
 * Added one. An earlier one was deleted because of some copyvio issue.
 * Instead of the 'took office' and 'left office' cols, couldn't you just use one 'term' or 'time in office' col, or something like that?
 * Done
 * Might wanna check these links out
 * Fixed links. Yashthepunisher (talk) 04:11, 15 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your comments. Yashthepunisher (talk) 06:16, 15 July 2018 (UTC)

Support – Good with me. Great job to both of you! BeatlesLedTV (talk) 15:14, 15 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Thank you. Vanamonde (talk) 17:10, 15 July 2018 (UTC)

Source review passed; promoting. -- Pres N  17:40, 16 July 2018 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.