Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of South American countries/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was not promoted by User:The Rambling Man 10:12, 3 July 2008.

List of South American countries
I believe this list meets the FL criteria. My only concern is that it may contain too much information (most other articles have separate articles for population, area, GDP (PPP), etc.). I felt that a comprehensive list of countries should incorporate the basic facts of each country. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 17:18, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Comments

Gary King ( talk ) 17:52, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't think the text in the table should have a smaller font size than everything else. Perhaps the images, especially the flags, could be smaller to give the text more room.
 * Heh, hadn't even noticed the reduced size. Fixed. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 17:58, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
 * "Other lists" &rarr; "See also"? That would conform with WP:LAYOUT better (and place it before References).
 * Fixed. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 17:58, 14 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Support This looks good now. Gary King ( talk ) 07:41, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Comments: Most of my suggestions were already mentioned by Golbez above, but I do have a few more: I hope that these suggestions will help. Good luck! --Dem393 (talk) 03:04, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Do you have any websites that could potentially form an "External links" section? If yes, then please make that section.
 * Besides the CIA World Factbook (which is used as a ref repeatedly), there's no single source of info for all countries. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 03:16, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
 * The "See also" section goes before the "Notes" section.
 * Fixed. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 03:16, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Could you please separate the footnotes from the references? It makes it very confusing on the list as to whether I'm about to read a footnote or a citation.
 * Never been a supporter of this designation, but I guess I could do it. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 03:16, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
 * You could wait for a consensus first, if you want to.--Dem393 (talk) 03:20, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Or not...nevermind! I like the notes and references now.--Dem393 (talk) 03:24, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Why are the map perspectives different? Why do Argentina and Brazil have a world map while others have portions of the South American map? I think you should be consistent with the perspectives of all of the maps.
 * I was wondering the same thing. I looked on Commons, but had no success in finding more appropriate images. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 03:16, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Ok, that's fine.--Dem393 (talk) 03:20, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
 * "South America has an area of approximately 17,840,000 square kilometers (6,890,000 sq mi), or almost 3.5% of the Earth's surface. Its population is more than 380 million, according to estimates of country populations in the The World Factbook." Please cite all of these statements.
 * I like the way the list looks now! Support --Dem393 (talk) 03:24, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

That's it. The Rambling Man (talk) 07:07, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Comments from
 * Abbreviating GDP per capita to PPP is confusing - can you say "GDP per capita, also called Purchasing Power Parity (PPP)"?
 * GDP per capita is not PPP. This statistic is "GDP at PPP per capita". I've clarified this. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 12:45, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Question - you say French Guiana is an " overseas department and region" of France - is that the same as a dependency? You explicitly state the Falklands to be a dependency, but not French Guiana.
 * French Guiana is not a dependency. See my correspondence with Golbez above. I'm still waiting on his reply regarding my proposal to move this page to just "List of South American countries". Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 12:45, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
 * But I did reply, several days ago. :) --Golbez (talk) 13:57, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Well then, ignore what I said above. :) Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 14:23, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
 * And actually, rereading it, I have no problem with moving it to "List of South American countries" (though I would prefer 'List of countries in South America'), as long as the Falklands is kept. =p --Golbez (talk) 15:44, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Alright, moved. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 16:13, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
 * "Its population is more than 380 million" can you put a timeframe on this, say "As of x 2008..."?
 * Fixed. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 12:45, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
 * "South America ranks fourth in area " just make it clear you're talking about continents here.
 * Done. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 12:45, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Official language in the table should be language(s).
 * These are official languages, not just languages. I didn't want to include languages because some countries have dozens of widely spoken languages. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 12:45, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Sorry, not clear was I? I meant the col heading should be "Offical language(s)" because there's more than one in some instances. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:51, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Ah, okay. Done. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 13:43, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Right align population col.
 * It's currently left-aligned like every otherr column (except flag and map). Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 12:45, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, so right align it so the commas align properly. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:51, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Done. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 13:43, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
 * You have a (July 2008 est.) in the heading and then in the same column a single (January 2007 est.) for population. You could do the same with the PPP col since only two aren't 2007 est.
 * Done. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 12:45, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
 * No MOS requirement but I'd prefer to see references centrally aligned.
 * Done. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 12:45, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
 * "kilometer" in the lead, "kilometre" in the notes. And presumably note E means "square" kilometres?
 * Fixed. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 12:45, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Fix the template so it points directly to this page and not via a redirect.
 * I plan to move this article. Also, see the template code. I don't think I could get it to directly link to this title. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 12:45, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, the template code was a little more complex than I first imagined... ! The Rambling Man (talk) 13:45, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
 *  Oppose  per cr. 6 of WP:WIAFL. The table has too many columns and it is too widened and messy. Flags should be smaller than they are now.-- Crzycheetah 22:49, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
 * What resolution are you using? Flags and map sizes have been reduced and I have reduced column widths. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 23:10, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
 * My res. is 1024 x 768. It looks fine now. The only minor concern is that the GDP column heading is too long(for a heading that is), but I don't see how it can be improved. Maybe move the contents of the parentheses to the footnote? -- Crzycheetah 23:43, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Comments Matthewedwards (talk • contribs • email) 03:47, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
 * A more engaging first sentence is needed, rather than a straight repetition of the article title
 * I'd prefer to see the table header for area state km/sq miles, and remove it from each cell
 * No need for the dollar sign in the GDP column, cos you already say it's in US dollars.
 * How come two different style maps are used? One beige and red, the other grey and green?
 * Perhaps you could include a footnote to say that the Population is an estimate from 2008, except where stated otherwise, and also put all that extra GDP info in a footnote, which would shorten the height of the table headers


 * Comment You should add a key explaining what the rows highlighted in light blue mean. -- Scorpion0422 16:26, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * It is mentioned in the lead, but I guess people might miss that. Key added. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 01:05, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

←List of countries does contain lots of info, and is partly excused because it has corralled a huge number of items into a list. It's still a pity that it chooses flags (pretty meaningless) above more useful, interesting info. South America is much smaller, and to be "among our best work" begs for an interesting combination of data criteria that allows readers to compare the countries in useful ways (even unique ways, but that would be a stroke of luck if you came upon a combination of data that isn't out there already). I guess I'd like to encourage WPians to nominate for high status lists that are deeper in terms of data mining. Frankly, the List of South American countries by GDP (PPP) per capita needs to be merged into this one and combined with fascinating comparative data, nominal GDP of course, but housing, telephone and car ownership, size of public sector in the economy—I don't know, but that's one of the enjoyable tasks of creating a list, I think: skimming around for combinations of data that show the expected and unexpected associations. OECD and CIA Factbook should give a good foundation, and there's so much to select from that the very filtering of the criteria is a valuable contribution in a WP list. And the lead! TONY  (talk)  06:02, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Oppose, unless I'm howled down by more experienced reviewers. My chief concern is that it's kinda workaday, too easy, and sacrifices a lot of usefulness, to put together this info: constructing the table was probably 30 minutes' work. What would add value to this list is the provision of another one or two tables that give more information for comparison. Like notional GDP, which will show how undervalued or overvalued a currency it; like form of government; like Quality of Life index; like demographic profile (um ... isn't there a single ratio of below and above 25 years of age in the UN database? You could have a basic info table first, then a demographic one, then an economic one? But your choice. Therefore, I have to say that I think it doesn't yet meet our primary requirement, that "A featured list exemplifies our very best work." I see other nominations that are much more useful.
 * GDP PPP is the way you'd say it, as opposed to GDP notional value. Overlinked (I've removed some culprits).
 * Cr 2, inadequate lead. I mean, what about the larger context of how so many languages came to be spoken there? A sense of the chronological span of its invasion by Europeans, and its independence in the 20th century. Why it's so fragmented into little nation states (Columbia used to be three countries until the mid-1800s, I think). For an ordinary list, it's fine; for a featured list, I want more. TONY   (talk)  15:53, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
 * The list didn't take me 30 minutes to create (see the article history). Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 16:21, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
 * OK, it was a throwaway line, not well-chosen. I still think the scope is too small and wastes potential to be a really interesting collection of data. TONY   (talk)  16:44, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Heh, I actually thought I covered too many things in this list. There are other lists (e.g. List of South American countries by GDP (PPP) per capita) that cover the data from this list. In any case, do you propose I make separate sections with a table including economic statistics and another with demographics? Also, given your feelings about the data in this list, you might want to nominate List of countries, which contains no data, for FL removal. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 16:52, 27 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Tony has made some interesting suggestions. In my opinion, one way of thinking of the list is a summary of the information found in the infoboxes of each country's article. Also, I think that the list has grown beyond simply a table by now; I suggest using a separate level 3 heading for each country and then listing the information below it. Something like what I have posted on this FLC's talk page at Wikipedia_talk:Featured_list_candidates/List_of_South_American_countries. Gary King ( talk ) 06:29, 28 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Comment: I know it's bordering on pedantry, but I'm still not entirely happy with the labelling of French Guiana as "not a country." France is a country; French Guiana is part of it. If this were a list of the countries in Europe, would you equally say Metropolitan France was not a country, because France extends beyond Europe? Perhaps a better terminology would be "French Guiana is part of a predominantly European country." It's a delicate thing which appears to have not been dealt with yet on Wikipedia...? And likewise, maybe "France" should be listed first in the table, with "French Guiana" in parentheses... since this is a list of countries, then France is the country, and French Guiana is the part of that country actually within the scope of the list... --Golbez (talk) 17:01, 27 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Aruba doesn't mention being South American. In fact it appears in Template:Countries of North America. Matthewedwards (talk • contribs • email) 07:58, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I undid the user who just added Aruba and two other "countries" to the list. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 12:20, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Just a note to the FL directors, I'm going to handle the concerns raised above in Tony1's oppose shortly. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 12:21, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Fine, please let me (and Tony) know when you're done. Thanks. The Rambling Man (talk) 11:00, 2 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Question: what should I list under "type of government" for the Falkland Islands and French Guiana? Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 14:20, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

--Orlady (talk) 23:17, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Oppose for now (not yet ready for FL status) and response to Nishkid64's last question:
 * Please get rid of the sentence that says "The Falkland Islands and French Guiana, which are not countries themselves, are highlighted with a cyan background and marked with an asterisk in the table." That's much too self-referential for a lead section; save that kind of information for a table footnote or table legend.
 * Regarding that cyan background and asterisk... You explain the cyan background in the legend, so the text explanation is not needed. As for the asterisks, I find them off-putting because the asterisk doesn't point to a footnote. I suggest deleting the asterisks.
 * Just a comment, but there has to be some indicator in actual text; for accessibility reasons we can't rely on color alone to convey information. --Golbez (talk) 00:15, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * You're right. When I made the comment above, I was assuming that the following item would take care of that need, in that the table would clearly indicate that these places are not sovereign countries. --Orlady (talk) 02:24, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * As for what to put under "Form of government", for the Falkland Islands say "UK overseas territory and dependency, also claimed by Argentina" and for French Guiana say "overseas department and region of France".
 * I'd like to see a separate "Notes" section at the bottom of each table that has lettered notes, instead of clumping them all at the end of the article.
 * The note letters should be sequential. That is, the first note in the first table should be "A", the second note should be "B," the last note in the last table should be "H", etc.
 * To minimize confusion, please don't use the same word "Notes" for the lettered notes and the right-hand column headings which link to numbered references. I suggest that you either (1) call the lettered notes "Footnotes" or (2) change the right-hand column title to "References", but there might be an even better solution.
 * I suggest that you use a lettered note (or footnote) to indicate that Argentina calls the Falkland Islands "Islas Malvinas." When that is done, I think you could delete the sentence "The Falkland Islands is a British overseas territory and dependency, which is also claimed by Argentina as the Islas Malvinas,[2] while French Guiana is an overseas department and region of France" from the lead section.
 * The abbreviated titles in the "See also" list are odd. Spell out the full names of the other articles.
 * Also, now that most of the contents of these other articles are included here, why not add population density to the "Demographics and geography" table and add a "GDP PPP" column to the "Economic statistics" table?
 * A general note: The article is currently being revamped to address Tony1's concerns. I still have to add a number of columns before I can call this table complete. I'll fix the kinks out within the next day or two. Thank you for your patience. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 12:48, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Oppose. The list is unstable, as there is question whether Aruba, Trinidad and Tobago, et.al. should be on the list. I've done some work on the France issue, still not entirely happy with it but it's there to work with. --Golbez (talk) 09:06, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * The issue was already resolved. Aruba, TT and Netherland Antilles were on the list before I started working on it. These sovereign states are sometimes considered part of South America, so I think it's appropriate to include them in the table, with a note indicating their status. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 12:43, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * But they aren't in the table... And if they are put there, then the intro needs to be changed to reflect just whose definition of South America is being used. --Golbez (talk) 17:44, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * The article is being revamped anyway. See the article history. It's changed signficantly since the start of this FAC. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 17:45, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Which is precisely why it needs to be refined and stabilized before the FLC can continue. --Golbez (talk) 18:33, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, I'm in the process of doing that. By the way, the FLC's closed now. TRM archived it hours ago, apparently. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 18:54, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Er... oh. Well then, carry on. :) ... Shouldn't this have been moved to an archive then? --Golbez (talk) 18:55, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * GimmeBot will be here to archive shortly. I'll renominate the article once I've made all the appropriate changes. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 19:02, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.