Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of Vegas Golden Knights draft picks/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by Hey man im josh via FACBot (talk) 12:25, 2 July 2024 (UTC).

List of Vegas Golden Knights draft picks

 * Nominator(s): The   Kip  (contribs) 22:42, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Having been inspired by @XR228, I've decided to nominate this for FL. After expanding the lead with prose and making some accessibility additions, I believe it successfully meets all FL criteria. The  Kip  (contribs) 22:42, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Drive-by comment
The article shouldn't be started off with "This is a complete list of...", per MOS:THISISALIST. Hey man im josh (talk) 23:15, 9 June 2024 (UTC)


 * Done. The   Kip  (contribs) 23:24, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Comments

 * Lead image should not use forced pixel size, instead use the "upright" parameter, potentially with a multiplier e.g. "upright=1.3"
 * I feel like ice hockey should be specifically mentioned/linked somewhere. Maybe mimic the opening of List of Seattle Kraken draft picks, also currently at FLC
 * "2017 second-round pick Nicolas Hague has played the most games for Vegas of any draft picks" => "2017 second-round pick Nicolas Hague has played the most games for Vegas of any draft pick"
 * "Wins, losses, ties, overtime losses and goals against average apply to goaltenders" - there's no column for ties.....? -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:43, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
 * All taken care of. I'd removed ties from the chart a while back as VGK was founded long after their demise, but forgot to remove from that descriptor. The   Kip  (contribs) 18:56, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Support -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 20:09, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Hey man im josh

 * Use "background-color" instead of just "background" for the column headers. If you do not do so, the sorting icon is missing, which makes the page below what we expect for accessibility. You also have an extra exclamation point in the column text, just before "scope", that should be removed.
 * The table needs a title for accessibility reasons
 * It should be called out in some way, even via note, that the source uses "T/O" whereas you don't include ties. I understand the reason why, but I think it's good to call this out in some fashion.
 * Change 2017 NHL Entry Draft to 2017 NHL entry draft in the lead and in the images where it's linked.
 * Ref 10 – Add The Hockey News as the source
 * Ref 6 – Wikilink Las Vegas Review-Journal
 * General ref 1 – Change from publisher = to , based on the fact the Wiki page is called that
 * You switch back and forth between referring to the team as Vegas or the Golden Knights, pick one and be consistent in the prose.
 * If this is meant to be the entirety of the team's picks, why are the picks from the 2017 NHL expansion draft not included?
 * Add to the top of the article under the short description so that dates in the references remain consistent if more are added and so they're auto formatted.

That's what I've got for now. Ping me when you reply please. Hey man im josh (talk) 17:21, 14 June 2024 (UTC)


 * @Hey man im josh just a note that I’m away from my laptop for the next day or two, but I’ll let you know when I’ve got these taken care of. Thanks for the feedback! The   Kip  (contribs) 21:49, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
 * @The Kip: No worries, I typically don't edit on the weekend anyways. Hey man im josh (talk) 22:10, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
 * @Hey man im josh, I'll go through point by point:
 * 1 is done
 * For 2, I based it off the title from FL List of New York Islanders draft picks.
 * Added a note regarding 3 that Hockey Ref includes ties, but they're not in the chart as Vegas was founded after their abolition.
 * 4-7 are done
 * For 8, I chose to refer to them as the Golden Knights (again going off the Islanders FL)
 * Expansion draft picks aren't included with entry draft picks - this is more a precedence thing, and undoing this (either merging the two or renaming entry draft picks) would have to be a WP:IH-wide project (if not sports wikiprojects-wide - expansion drafts are universally treated as separate from "the" (entry) draft, as seen at Washington Wizards draft history or Jacksonville Jaguars draft history).
 * 10 is done.
 * The  Kip  (contribs) 05:34, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
 * @The Kip: That's funny you link Jacksonville Jaguars draft history, it's on my to do list and I was heavily considering and leaning towards including the expansion draft picks. While not the same, I did include the extra drafts in Detroit Lions draft history's sublists. Granted there was no expansion draft, so it's a bit of a different situation. Never the less, I'll accept that the expansion draft won't be included, even if I do believe it to be relevant to the subject.
 * I'm just checking with PresN whether you need exclamation points or not when declaring a scope, but otherwise, I think that's everything I've brought up addressed. I would like to see the second paragraph expanded a bit though.
 * Any thoughts on a separate goaltenders section, similar to List of Detroit Red Wings draft picks? For what it's worth, I have no issue with the cells having a line through them, I think that makes sense. I also had no issues with the images being beside the table, I think that's a pretty standard thing to do. Hey man im josh (talk) 13:51, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Alright, I thought so but confirmed it with PresN. Row scopes need to be declared with an exclamation point to be accessible.   is not acceptable for accessibility reasons. Hey man im josh (talk) 14:41, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
 * @Hey man im josh as for the second paragraph - I copied it from other draft pages. I'm not entirely sure how it could be expanded, as I feel it summarizes the draft/lottery process fairly well. I'm personally not a fan of the separate goaltender section, as in my opinion it takes away from being a comprehensive list of picks. I also agree that the images should be next to the table, but I'm still somewhat concerned regarding the issues raised by Dajasj - that said, if that problem is overstated I'd be happy to move them back.
 * Additionally, I'm having some issues regarding attempting to convert the table to  - I'm attempting to duplicate the styling found on the Lions page of only the draft year being bolded, but for some reason, no matter what I do the years are both off-center and not bolded.  The   Kip  (contribs) 20:56, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
 * @The Kip: I'm on mobile right now but I wanted to give you a quick response about the issue. If you remove plainrowheaders (very first line at the top of the table) it should look like what you're aiming for when you add the exclamation point for the row scopes. Hey man im josh (talk) 00:10, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
 * @Hey man im josh Gotcha, all done now. Let me know if any other changes are needed, or if you think it's good to go! The   Kip  (contribs) 19:52, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Support. Hey man im josh (talk) 14:06, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

MPGuy2824

 * "Wins, losses, overtime losses and goals against average apply to goaltenders and are used only for players at that position." - why? Why not show winning/losing games for every player?
 * It is very confusing to see only a bunch of dashes for some players. I guess this means that they didn't play for the team at all. It would be good if this was explained somehow. -MPGuy2824 (talk) 11:31, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
 * @MPGuy2824:
 * Those statistics (and specifically W/L) are only recorded by the league for goaltenders, similar to how W/L are only recorded for pitchers in baseball.
 * The "Key" section indicates that dashes indicate "does not apply," effectively meaning they never played NHL games - however, that's something of a given, considering the note above the table stating that it shows each player's statistical totals in the NHL.
 * The  Kip  (contribs) 05:36, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
 * You'll have to make the player's name as the header cell of every row. Right now the draft year is set as the header cell, but that's not really unique across all rows. -MPGuy2824 (talk) 07:28, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
 * @MPGuy2824 I'm not really sure if I follow. The   Kip  (contribs) 19:53, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Hope the following tables make it clearer. -MPGuy2824 (talk) 06:08, 21 June 2024 (UTC)


 * There's no reason they can't use the draft column as the header cells, it's fairly standard and it's what I did in my draft related lists. They're welcome to change it up, as I know a lot of people do in various lists, but it's a personal preference thing from my understanding. Hey man im josh (talk) 13:59, 21 June 2024 (UTC)


 * MOS:DTAB states: Because the row header and column header may be spoken before the data in each cell when navigating in table mode, it is necessary for the column headers and row headers to uniquely identify the column and row respectively. One possible solution here is to have the draft year as a level-1 header with rowspans, and the name (or something else unique to the row) as a level-2 header. Possibly, the cells of the "Player" column can be styled to look like the other non-header cells. -MPGuy2824 (talk) 08:07, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
 * @MPGuy2824 With all due respect, I'm not even sure if what you're asking to be done is possible for someone not overly well-versed in table coding. Especially considering many of the football lists promoted to FL in the recent past (such as the ones Josh has successfully improved), and while I'm biased as the nominator, this feels a tad excessive with respect to the FL criteria. The   Kip  (contribs) 09:13, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
 * @MPGuy2824, just following up - do you support otherwise? Again, I'm not sure that what you're asking for regarding the tables is possible, nor is it necessary for FL. The   Kip  (contribs) 19:51, 24 June 2024 (UTC)


 * This can be followed up with whatever styling you want to add to the player name cells to make it look like a normal cell.
 * Necessary for FL: I quoted the relevant section from the MOS above. Next, to quote from WP:FLCR 5c, Accessibility. It uses proper formating to be accessible to all readers. I don't see how I can support promotion unless this issue is taken care of. -MPGuy2824 (talk) 06:26, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
 * @MPGuy2824 Just an observer here, I think I edited the table according to your specifications. Take a look at the markup and tell me if I did, feel free to revert otherwise.  ULPS ( talk •  contribs ) 17:20, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Not quite, but I've fixed it. The problem is that you can't just use '!' to set a header cell when the whole row is defined on one line. There's a way to do it and stay on one line, but the easier thing to do is to put the header cell on its own wikitext line. Then you see the second problem- the header cell formatting overrides the css shorthands like bgcolor, so you need to call them out explicitly with css styles. It's a bit of a pain. -- Pres N  19:31, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the info! I'll keep it in mind for the future.  ULPS ( talk •  contribs ) 21:23, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Support promotion. -MPGuy2824 (talk) 05:55, 26 June 2024 (UTC)


 * This can be followed up with whatever styling you want to add to the player name cells to make it look like a normal cell.
 * Again, this requires a level of knowledge of table formatting/programming that most users including myself simply do not have. As Josh has pointed out, plenty of recent sports articles have been promoted without that - I really do not understand why this one is being held to a unique standard. The   Kip  (contribs) 16:32, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Weighing in here! There's a difference between this list and most other recent sports lists, and that's that the 'year' cell here is the same for multiple rows. For e.g. Josh's lists, there's one row per year. The reason this matters is for what MPGuy2824 said- the point of the row header cell is to "uniquely identify" the row. If every row is a single year, then the year uniquely identifies it. In this list, though, the year doesn't- the first year identifies 12 rows. Now, we don't always have to be strict on this- if it's still clear in context what's going on, then that's fine. But for this list, prefixing the audio of the table cells with the year isn't very clear. Now, do I strictly adhere to that? No, because it can be a pain to solve for non-technical editors in areas that don't put the unique cell as the first one in the row (like here, where we organize by year). But according to the letter of the rules, we should do better.

There's a few ways to do better! What a lot of areas do with tables like this is just make the unique thing be the row header- which in this case would be the player name. Even though that's not the first column in the table, it's allowed. You can also make a combination header that is unique- in this case, draft+pick, or draft+player. Of those two, draft+player is better, because "2017 61" doesn't make sense if you don't know that 61 is the pick number. The problem here, and one reason I use a light touch on pushing accessibility sometimes, is that making the player the header while preserving the formatting is a major pain. You need less-common table code formatting, and you need to have a bunch of raw css style code for every line. It's doable, but wikimedia could make the process simpler.

In any case, between ULPS and myself, it should be fine now. -- Pres N  19:43, 25 June 2024 (UTC)


 * @ULPS and @PresN, much appreciate your assistance. Hopefully this clears up any issues with the nom! The   Kip  (contribs) 05:55, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Dajasj

 * The image don't fit next to the table on smaller screens or screens that use Vector 2022 max width by default. So on desktops this creates huge white space, while on mobile it creates a lot to scroll past. I would recommend leaving out additional images.
 * In the first column, the rows can be combined if they are from the same year right? It's confusing me, because I expect different links.
 * Could it be possible to leave out "—" in every cell and clarify that empty cells means this did not apply. I think it would make the entire table less cluttered (especially because four columns are nearly always empty).
 * Maybe it is my lack of knowledge on this topic, but the table suggests there are multiple goaltenders, yet the four right columns are empty for them and the introduction mentions only one? (Please ignore this if this comment was simply ignorant ;)) Dajasj (talk) 21:25, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
 * @Dajasj:
 * I've converted it to a gallery at the bottom - my concern with removal entirely is that the list then falls below the expectation for featured content to be adequately illustrated.
 * They could be in theory - Ice hockey and basketball wikiproject precedence indicates they're individually linked though (see the Wizards and Islanders lists linked above). I assume it has something to do with accessibility.
 * Again a precedence thing, though I disagree here - I feel that empty cells make the table look incomplete.
 * All good, haha - Patera's the only goaltender to actually play for Vegas, hence the rest of the drafted goalies' stats being empty. Zhukov and Kooy never signed with the team, while Saville, Vikman, Lindbom, and Whitehead are all still prospects who haven't yet reached the NHL.
 * The  Kip  (contribs) 05:45, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
 * One option to deal with some of the long line of emdashes, is to replace them all with a colspan saying "Drafted but didn't play for the Knights" for every such player. -MPGuy2824 (talk) 07:31, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
 * With the sheer amount of players on the chart that'd apply to, I feel like that wouldn't be visually appealing. The   Kip  (contribs) 19:53, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
 * @Dajasj, just to clarify - do you support? The   Kip  (contribs) 02:45, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Yes Dajasj (talk) 08:06, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

EN-Jungwon
--  EN  - Jungwon  13:15, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Archive all the sources
 * Ref 3 and 4 are dead


 * @EN-Jungwon I've done so. While 3 and 4's raw links are dead, they're successfully archived and accessible - I don't see why they can't be used as a result. The   Kip  (contribs) 02:41, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I was rewieing this version of the page where the url status parameter of ref 3 and 4 were set to live. When I commented that those references were dead I was implying that the url status needed to be changed. I should've made that clear. But it looks like Hey man im josh already fixed that in this edit. Since my comments have been addressed I'll go ahead and support promotion. --  EN  - Jungwon  02:52, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Gotcha, sorry for the misunderstanding and thanks for the support! The   Kip  (contribs) 03:25, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

Source review from Dylan620
Because this listicle only has 12 sources, I decided to check them all. Dylan 620 (he/him • talk • edits) 01:16, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Unless I'm missing something, ref 3 does not verify that the entry draft occurs in June of every year.
 * Per ref 2, a couple players' names are misspelled: Maksim Zhukov and Stanislav Demin
 * No other concerns with source-to-text integrity; all other refs verified.
 * Source titles should consistently be in either sentence case or title case; the listicle currently employs a mixture of the two.
 * There were a couple instances of cite web where National Hockey League is listed as a website instead of a publisher, which results in the NHL being incorrectly italicized. Other than this point and the one above, source formatting looks good.
 * All sources appear reliable.


 * @Dylan620:
 * Agreed, and I can't seem to find anything in text that specifies June - as such, I've changed it to "off-season," which I feel is general enough.
 * Corrected the names. Slava's been a common name in some sources, but I can't find enough to be definitive.
 * Fixed the sentence/title case for most refs - left title case in place for the "Draft History" or "Hockey Operations Guidelines"-type ones where it feels more natural, but changed to sentence for the others
 * Fixed the website/publisher discrepancy.
 * The  Kip  (contribs) 04:04, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Looks good to me now – support! Dylan 620  (he/him • talk • edits) 22:11, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

Hey man im josh (talk) 02:25, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.