Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of awards and nominations received by Santana/archive2


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was not promoted by 10:01, 21 April 2013 (UTC).

List of awards and nominations received by Santana

 * Nominator(s): Tomcat (7) 17:47, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured list because I recently improved the list and can't see any faults.Tomcat (7) 17:47, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

Quick comments by Hahc21


 * Overall, most of the tables look good, although I'll check them later. I think that the lead needs to be polished a bit more, but it's close to it. I will revire the references soon. Regards. — ΛΧΣ  21  05:32, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your comments so far. Regards.--Tomcat (7) 14:37, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
 * You're very welcome. More comments to go soon :) — ΛΧΣ  21  17:23, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

Oppose
 * The prose is poorly formed in the lead. Just a few examples:
 * The structure of the first sentence does not flow well at all, consider a complete rewording -- see other similar featured lists as an example.
 * The former sentence was moved to the first sentence and merged with the next one, a decision made in response to Hchc's aforementioned comments. --Tomcat (7) 10:54, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
 * See proposed opening below. Jujutacular (talk) 04:21, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
 * 'Firm' in the first sentence is a broad term, a rewording would help clarify the meaning here.
 * I changed it to "constant"--Tomcat (7) 10:54, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
 * 'Latter' is used to clarify between two preceding points. There is no 'former' to refer to and so 'latter' is meaningless.
 * Santana and Carlos Santana are presented as the subjects--Tomcat (7) 10:54, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
 * I see that a rewording has eliminated the word, I maintain that 'latter' was ambiguous in the context. Jujutacular (talk) 04:19, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
 * The second sentence would flow much better if it was written in active voice as opposed to passive voice.
 * I disagree on the ground that it fully describe their awards, not the band. That's when passive voice should be used, if the object is more notable than the subject.--Tomcat (7) 10:54, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
 * 'Owed' instead of 'owing'
 * Done--Tomcat (7) 10:54, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Overall, the flow of the lead text is choppy.
 * Could you elaborate so I can understand what is choppy?--Tomcat (7) 10:54, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
 * I would specifically suggest rewording the first sentence still. Perhaps:
 * Santana is a Latin-influenced rock band, formed in 1967 in San Francisco by its one constant member, Carlos Santana. Since its inception, the band has won numerous awards, largely owed to 2000's Supernatural and its subsequent singles, especially "Maria Maria" and "Smooth".
 * Let me know if that works for you, or adjust to your liking. I do still think the current opening doesn't flow well. Jujutacular (talk) 04:19, 21 February 2013 (UTC)


 * The lead is lacking citations, see other similar featured lists.
 * The lead is meant as a summary of the article, so it does not need additional references. What other lists do is irrelevant. WP:V does not state that the lead should be referenced, except if the statements are controversial.--Tomcat (7) 10:54, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Other stuff is relevant if it is the best practices on Wikipedia, which FLs are. WP:V doesn't state anything about the intro. Sure, we don't need to cite mere summaries of the body of the article, but there are multiple pieces of information in the lead that are not present in the body. These need to be referenced. Jujutacular (talk) 04:19, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
 * What should be cited? Everything is already cited below and nothing is controversial.--Tomcat (7) 10:23, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
 * "Santana has sold 100 million album copies to date." -- this is poorly referenced -- to what date? This number may already be out of date but we can't know because the source is not dated.
 * Re-added "around" that was taken out after Hchc's review.--Tomcat (7) 10:54, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
 * No additional members besides Carlos are mentioned in the lead text.
 * It states that the band was not solid and had a lot of members (rather session musicians or guest members than real members).--Tomcat (7) 10:54, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
 * I would feel much better if the reader was presented with a few of the more important members that the group has had over the years. Jujutacular (talk) 04:19, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
 * This article is not about the members, but about their awards.--Tomcat (7) 10:23, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
 * True, it is about their awards. So why not just list their awards and don't provide any background information about the band? The reason is that this is a nomination to be a featured list, Wikipedia's best work. A reader of this list may not know anything about the band. It is useful to provide some basic background information about the band in order to accommodate the reader. If they want additional information, they can read the main Santana article. I understand that their have been many different members of the band over the years, so I'm not asking you to name every one. Just the most important ones. Jujutacular (talk) 20:25, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
 * I could mention the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame inductees.--Tomcat (7) 19:16, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
 * That seems reasonable to me. Jujutacular (talk) 04:22, 8 March 2013 (UTC)
 * "Grammy Award" -- heading should be plural
 * Fixed--Tomcat (7) 10:54, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
 * "CHCI Medallion of Excellence Award" -- should be "CHCI Medallions of Excellence"
 * Done--Tomcat (7) 10:54, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Write out and link Congressional Hispanic Caucus Institute
 * Not done, because it does not add anything, and writing out is not required.--Tomcat (7) 10:54, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
 * It provides background information to the reader. Jujutacular (talk) 04:19, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
 * As this is an active group, all instances of "Santana won X award" should be "Santana has won X award".
 * I don't agree, merely because they achived those in the past, not between past and present. If they receive additional accolades (which is unlikely) those can be easily added.--Tomcat (7) 10:54, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Every other featured list like this that I checked uses the present perfect tense. The reason for this is that Santana won those awards, and continues to produce music (so the potential to win more of these awards is there). If the band were to disband permanently, it would be reasonable to change the tense to simple past tense. Jujutacular (talk) 04:19, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
 * http://www.rockonthenet.com/ -- please demonstrate how this is a reliable source.
 * It is used as an additional source for the sake of verifiability--Tomcat (7) 10:54, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Only reliable sources should be included. Jujutacular (talk) 04:19, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
 * There is not a single indication that it can not be used as an additional source. The results match with other reliable sources.--Tomcat (7) 10:23, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Just because it matches in this instance does not make it a "WP:Reliable source". The information on that site could change. The point is that I have no confidence in its publishing process because I know nothing about it. I briefly looked around the site but didn't see much indication of its reliability. I'm not saying that it's not reliable, I'm just asking you to present the case that it is, if so. Or remove it, if not. Jujutacular (talk) 20:25, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
 * There is no reason to remove it, but I don't want to produce a huge discussion either.--Tomcat (7) 19:16, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
 * What year did they win CBS Record's Crystal Globe Award?
 * That is not known, that's why the cell is blank.--Tomcat (7) 10:54, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
 * I finally found the date, it is 1977. Will add shortly.--Tomcat (7) 11:38, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
 * What CBS Records is the award given out by?
 * I don't understand what you mean. Do you mean by whom?--Tomcat (7) 10:54, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
 * "CBS Records" can be used to indicate several different entities. Which one are we talking about here? Please find out and link the appropriate one. Jujutacular (talk) 04:19, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Who gives out the Chicano Music Awards?
 * Ditto for the Echo?
 * I don't think that is relevant to their achivements--Tomcat (7) 10:54, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
 * So why does the list include this information for the other awards? We could simply say "Jujutacular gives Santana X award". We need to know background information about these awards to know why they are relevant and worthy to be included in this list. Jujutacular (talk) 04:19, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Doing.--Tomcat (7) 19:23, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
 * VH1 is singular: "gives out"
 * Fixed.--Tomcat (7) 10:54, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

This list needs considerable work in my opinion. Jujutacular (talk) 02:30, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your opinions. Could you expand your current position? In which way it needs considerable work? Regards.--Tomcat (7) 10:54, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
 * I copyedited the lead once again.--Tomcat (7) 14:19, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
 * See above comments. Jujutacular (talk) 04:19, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
 * I made some changes and responded to other. Regards. --Tomcat (7) 10:23, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
 * I added information for the Chicano and Echo awards. I don't know who presents the Chicano awards.--Tomcat (7) 21:26, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

Comments: I was asked to review this list, but I see there are initial concerns above that have not yet been addressed. I also notice there is not consistency with how references are used throughout the article. Personally, I prefer the look of the Grammy Awards section, with references displayed within cells. Otherwise, it can be difficult to determine whether references at the end of the award description is used to verify general information about the award itself, or the number of nominations and awards the artist has earned. (See how this list uses inline citations following award descriptions, then within tables?) Also, the lead does not mention the total number of awards and nominations. -- Another Believer ( Talk ) 15:16, 6 March 2013 (UTC)
 * It seems I addressed every comment, and I am waiting for Juju's response regarding the members. The Grammy Awards table is the only one of its type because a direct link to all nominees and awardees does not exist. Therefore I don't think your system is a good idea, because the same footnote will appear more than once in a table, and the in-line citations for the award introductions are sourcing the award summaries and/or the number of awards/nominations. Regarding the last point, it seems that the awards box already notes how many awards/nominations the band has proximately received over the years, so I find it redundant to include duplicated information in the lead. Regards.--Tomcat (7) 13:33, 7 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Support on prose, looks peachy now. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 11:13, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Oppose quick run-through shows several issues for me:
 * "the band has won numerous awards" followed in the next sentence by "The group has won numerous awards"... not good.


 * What is NAACP?
 * I don't think that that abbreviation should be written out. It is generally known as NAACP, not National Association for the Advancement of Colored People.
 * I don't think you should assume everyone knows what the abbreviation means. I certainly didn't.  The Rambling Man (talk) 13:03, 23 March 2013 (UTC)
 * The award is known as "NAACP Image Hall of Fame", not "National Association for the Advancement of Colored People Image Hall of Fame"


 * "He has also received accolades not related to his musical work, including the UCLA Cesar E. Chavez Spirit Award and Patrick Lippert Award, both for his social engagements." what relevance does this have to the list of awards and noms for the band? If you include Carlos' awards, what about awards won or nominated for by any other members of the band, have you included those?
 * Carlos was the band, all other members were rather minor musicians.--Tomcat (7) 12:07, 23 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Then the title of the list is incorrect, it should be "by Santana and Carlos Santana". The Rambling Man (talk) 13:03, 23 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I think it is better to suggest a move outside of FAC. But if needed I may move it.


 * "to their official website" vs "It was inducted", plural or singular?


 * " Guinness World Records" in the lead, "Guinness Book of World Records" in the list...
 * Both seem to be correct.
 * Be consistent. The Rambling Man (talk) 13:03, 23 March 2013 (UTC)


 * "Santana received one ..." -> "Santana has received one..." (unless of course Santana can never win another one?)


 * "Favourite Artist or Group, Rock" really "Favourite"? If this is the US MTV award, it must surely be "Favorite"?


 * Some tables have an Award which spills onto two lines for no good reason (i.e. the table is nowhere need the width of the screen), why?


 * Would have though it worthwhile noting in the lead that Santana are a Mexican band.
 * They are not a Mexican band. It was founded in the USA and their members are mainly non-Mexicans.
 * The confusion arises from the fact that Santana was awarded a Mexican award, that's why. The Rambling Man (talk) 13:03, 23 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I think mentioning that it is a Mexian group will cause more confusion.


 * Echo award, you say "Santana received one award" but it was Carlos. There are a few of these.


 * Ref 26 is called "Latin Grammy winners", not "Past winners search". Please check others.

The Rambling Man (talk) 16:36, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks so far. Regards.--Tomcat (7) 12:07, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

Note this nomination appears to have stalled. Suggest the nominator contacts relevant projects or editors who may be interested in reviewing this for FLC, or else we should archive the nomination. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:04, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.