Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of prime ministers of New Zealand/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by PresN via FACBot (talk) 00:25, 29 August 2022 (UTC).

List of prime ministers of New Zealand

 * Nominator(s): YttriumShrew (talk) 21:59, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured list status because I've checked it against the criteria and it seems to match all of them. It is similar to many existing featured lists of officeholders, such as List of prime ministers of India and List of premiers of Prince Edward Island. This was one of the first articles I edited and I have contributed to it a bit over the years, and am reasonably familiar with the source material. However, I would not count myself as a major contributor. Thus I will not take credit for its quality if promoted. YttriumShrew (talk) 21:59, 16 May 2022 (UTC)


 * No citations for the list..? Wretchskull (talk) 07:32, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
 * The list is cited to references 2 and 3. This was not clear from the inlines, and I have now fixed it. YttriumShrew (talk) 08:01, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

Comments

 * Paragraph 1 is unsourced
 * Added some sources.


 * Articles really shouldn't include the wording "This list includes" so try and find a way to reword
 * I've reworded the sentence in a nicer way that hopefully solves the problem.
 * You've changed "this list includes" to "this article lists", which is essentially the same thing. Articles should not contain "meta" references like that (at least not within the prose).  I would suggest binning off that sentence completely and starting that paragraph off which something like "The holder of the office originally had the title of colonial secretary; this was changed to premier in 1869" and so on -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 10:43, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Okay. I've reworded it in a way that doesn't mention the article itself. YttriumShrew (talk) 21:14, 18 May 2022 (UTC)


 * The lead feels like it could do with a little more content. Could you add info on the longest-serving PM, the oldest, the youngest, etc?
 * Added oldest-youngest info. I can't think of much else to add, however.
 * Follow-up; I've added another paragraph. YttriumShrew (talk) 04:25, 19 May 2022 (UTC)


 * Could you put refs 2 and 3 against the "sub-headings" within the table? They look a bit weird just floating at the bottom......
 * Fixed.


 * A couple of entries have a dagger symbol next to the date of leaving office but it is not explained anywhere what this means
 * Fixed. (Indicates the PM died in office.)


 * That's what I got :-) -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:29, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Done the above. Hopefully this addresses your concerns. YttriumShrew (talk) 08:22, 18 May 2022 (UTC)


 * Support -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:24, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

Pamzeis
Not gonna screw this up (hopefully)
 * "The prime minister is the head of government of New Zealand" — This wording implies, to me, that all prime ministers are heads of governments in NZ; perhaps "In New Zealand, the prime minister is the head of government"
 * Okay. I've changed the wording, hopefully this fixes the problem.


 * "The prime minister is always a member of Parliament." — is unsourced?
 * It was originally sourced to reference 1, but the references got moved around. Fixed.


 * "should properly be given that title" — ...why?
 * They are not considered prime ministers because New Zealand did not yet have responsible government. Have added clarification and sources.

Hope this helps :) Pamzeis (talk) 05:53, 24 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Hopefully fixed the above problems. YttriumShrew (talk) 08:13, 24 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Support. Pamzeis (talk) 03:48, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

Accessibility review (MOS:DTAB)

 * Tables need captions, which allow screen reader software to jump straight to named tables without having to read out all of the text before it each time. Visual captions can be added by putting + caption_text as the first line of the table code; if that caption would duplicate a nearby section header, you can make it screen-reader-only by putting + instead.
 * Tables need column scopes for all column header cells, which in combination with row scopes lets screen reader software accurately determine and read out the headers for each cell of a data table. Column scopes can be added by adding !scope=col to each header cell, e.g.  becomes  . If the cell spans multiple columns, then use !scope=colgroup instead.
 * Tables need row scopes on the "primary" column for each row, which in combination with column scopes lets screen reader software accurately determine and read out the headers for each cell of a data table. Row scopes can be added by adding !scope=row to each primary cell, e.g.  becomes  . If the cell spans multiple rows, then use !scope=rowgroup instead.
 * Finally, the table-spanning "interrupter" rows are contraindicated. What happens with screen reader software is that it treats it like it's the value for all the columns- so it reads out e.g. "No., Colonial Secretaries (1856–1869); Portrait, Colonial Secretaries (1856–1869); Name, Colonial Secretaries (1856–1869);", etc. Instead, since this isn't a sortable table, just split it into multiple tables and have the "interrupter" row text be the caption of that table.
 * Please see MOS:DTAB for example table code if this isn't clear. I don't return to these reviews until the nomination is ready to close, so ping me if you have any questions. -- Pres N  23:01, 26 May 2022 (UTC)


 * Possibly worth noting I did this two months ago and forgot to notify here. YttriumShrew (talk) 21:15, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

Drive-by comments
Regards, --Goldsztajn (talk) 05:25, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
 * "Since 1935, every prime minister has been a member of the National and Labour parties, reflecting their domination of New Zealand politics." Could imply membership in both parties (obviously not possible, but...); use "either" "or".
 * Fixed.
 * Number of male/female prime ministers. With three women PMs, only three other countries have had an equal number of heads of government (Poland, Lithuania, Iceland), and only two have had more (Finland, 4; Switzerland, 5). Women's Power Index, Council on Foreign Relations.
 * Added.
 * Counting system a little unclear - a symbol indicating subsequent term of office might be better than bracketed numbering.
 * I personally think it's alright; it's used on many other lists of officeholders, including some featured ones. I have added an explanatory note.
 * "Nine prime ministers have held the position for more than one discrete term in office." one parliamentary term?
 * No, it means for one period. Fixed.
 * Both image captions - unclear why absent PMs are mentioned, recommend dropping. Add "from left" to second image.
 * Fixed
 * Someone finally commented! I believe concerns have been addressed. YttriumShrew (talk) 08:04, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
 * @YttriumShrew Made a few copy-edits. Support. Regards, Goldsztajn (talk) 12:24, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

Comment
NapHit (talk) 16:34, 7 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I know there is a reference that lists all the Prime Ministers from 1856 in the reference section (which actually states in the list since 1865, so that needs to be fixed), but it's not clear what is currently referencing the tables. This reference should be put alongside the captions on all of the tables so it's clear to the reader what source is providing the information in the tables. Right now, it's not clear and I had to fish through the sources to find said source.
 * "Since 1935, every prime minister has been a member of either the National party or the Labour party, reflecting their domination of New Zealand politics." This could do with a source
 * "The title of the office was originally "colonial secretary", which was formally changed to "premier" in 1869, and then to "prime minister" in 1907 when New Zealand was granted Dominion status in the British Empire." This sentence is also unsourced.
 * The two references linked at the top of the Name column provide the information for all the entries. I'm not sure repeating those two references 40+ times is necessary.  Perhaps an alternative is a single row across the bottom of all the tables with the text "Source: New Zealand Parliament, New Zealand Government" and a footnote for each.  Regards, --Goldsztajn (talk) 05:43, 15 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Just looked at this more closely, the NZ History page from the NZ Government actually has individual webpages for each person, with an author credit. I change my view, there should be a separate column indicating each individual reference. Regards, Goldsztajn (talk) 06:03, 15 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Not sure I made it clear what I was suggesting. Just a simple link next to the caption at the top of te tables would suffice. That ref lists all the Prime Ministers so we can just use that for all the tables at the top next to the caption rather than separate refs. NapHit (talk) 14:25, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
 * So sorry that took so long. All should be done now. YttriumShrew (talk) 20:10, 17 August 2022 (UTC)


 * No problem . All my concerns have been addressed now so I'm happy to support. NapHit (talk) 20:37, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Hi @NapHit@YttriumShrew@Giants2008@ChrisTheDude. If I take the example of Richard Seddon in the list - the two links at the top do not indicate his constituency, his date of birth, his date of death, his five election victories. One needs to go to a subsequent page to find that information. From my point of view, this fails "statements are sourced where they appear" (3b), which requires "direct support" ("A source "directly supports" a given piece of material if the information is present explicitly in the source") (emphasis in original). Perhaps others will interpret this differently, I don't mean to be pedantic, but the links as they presently stand do not appear to lead one directly to the information that appears. Regards, Goldsztajn (talk) 02:17, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

Independent politicians?
In the political party column, it would seem to me that "—" would be more appropriate than linking to independent politician as this is a period prior to the establishment of political parties, unless there are specific sources listing that person as an independent politician. The New Zealand Parliament page leaves the party column blank for those before John Ballance. Regards, --Goldsztajn (talk) 05:51, 15 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Fixed. YttriumShrew (talk) 20:10, 17 August 2022 (UTC)


 * Source review – All of the citations are well-formatted and reliable, and the link-checker tool didn't pick up any dead links. I concur with NapHit in that only the Name column looks to be cited with the current formatting, which isn't really enough to meet FL sourcing criteria. If you don't want to repeat the cite in all columns, their suggestion looks to be the best option. Giants2008  ( Talk ) 17:44, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Yes. I have now done this. YttriumShrew (talk) 20:10, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

Promoting; the issue raised about the general ref not giving all of the information at the landing page and requiring a clickthrough is taken, but as the links are obvious I see it as equivalent to a book cite with a page range or chapter title, and so not egregious enough to prevent promotion. -- Pres N  13:44, 28 August 2022 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.