Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of racing cyclists and pacemakers with a cycling-related death/archive2


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by Giants2008 via FACBot (talk) 00:28, 24 August 2020 (UTC).

List of racing cyclists and pacemakers with a cycling-related death

 * Nominator(s): Shearonink (talk) 21:23, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

I am nominating this for Featured list status because I am looking for feedback from other editors - what do folks think about the two different main sections? I nominated this List for possible FLC status this past fall (2019). The nomination was closed in January 2020 as 'Not promoted' with 2 Supports and 2 Opposes. The List passed all other objections and was brought "up to code" but the main sticking point for the 2 Opposes is that the List's 2 main sections are in different styles - the first being a sortable Table, the second being a text-List. This general format of the two sections is how I found the List when I first started working on it in 2010 - myself and the other editors subsequently retained the general style of two sections. The major section about cyclists who died during a race was eventually completely converted into a sortable Table. The cyclists who died during training section seems fundamentally different to me, these were almost exclusively people who died as individuals, not racing under a team banner, and with the exception of perhaps two instances these other cyclists were killed in training accidents - the text-list format seemed to fit their situation and so that format wasn't changed. I do have to say right off that I do not want to split the two sections into different articles - the world of cycling does not seem to make that distinction, all cyclists who have died during competitions or during training seem to be generally memorialized together. Thanks in advance for any and all comments - Shearonink (talk) 21:23, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Comments by Chidgk1
I don't have a problem with the different styles - only if any friends or relatives of the cyclists who died during training said they were not being respected as much would I think it should be changed.Chidgk1 (talk) 18:45, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your thoughts on this. So far as I know no one has objected to the two different subsections of the List as presenting more or presenting less respect, one over the other. Shearonink (talk) 04:29, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

Comments by Dudley Miles

 * Oppose.
 * The list has a hatnote saying that it is incomplete, and it therefore fails criterion 3 that it is comprehensive. It also fails to provide any criteria for inclusion in the list out of the countless people who have died in cycle accidents. Dudley Miles (talk) 17:09, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Re:   - I don't know that having that particular template on the List is against FL criteria. I was advised to put that template onto the List by  because the list will always be incomplete, it will never be finished, it is an open-ended List. Shearonink (talk) 18:17, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Your point about criteria...at one point I seem to remember that the list was for professional cyclists only, but that would have excluded collegiate cyclists and well-known amateur cyclists so they were kept/included. If the List was only of people notable enough for a Wikipedia article then that would delete many o the amateurs and most of the 1890-1930s professionals. I suppose the lead section could have something in it along the lines of "This list consists of the deaths of well-known or notable athletes/cyclists"...something like that. Shearonink (talk) 18:17, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Incomplete lists are a fact of life and shouldn't preclude a list being featured. It is a reasonable point to note that inclusion criteria are not noted, but perhaps it's simply that the individuals noted are notable enough for inclusion as standalone articles in Wikipedia.  See any alumni lists for other examples of "incomplete" lists with Wikipedia notability as their inclusion criteria. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 20:46, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
 * There were internal editing notes of  or which I changed to  but perhaps that wasn't sufficient re:criteria to have a name in the List. so I've added some content here to the lead section, let me know what you think. Shearonink (talk) 21:52, 15 June 2020 (UTC)


 * I still do not see any satisfactory criteria for inclusion. It is not a general list of cycling-related deaths as all deaths are in connection with cycle races - where details are supplied, but in some cases they are not. It is not only a list of deaths in cycle accidents as it includes people who suffered heart attacks, and not only of cyclists as it includes a trainer hit by a motorcycle. It is not only deaths during races as it includes deaths in training. The one thing the people on the list seem to have in common is that their death was connected with cycle racing Maybe a more accurate title would be List of people who died as a result of incidents connected with cycle racing. How did you find the people on the list? Are they listed in a reference work?  suggests people notable enough for a Wikipedia article, but very few on this list are. Lists of alumni are based on a reliable source published by a university, with selection of people notable enough for a Wikipedia article. I do not see any equivalent criteria here. Dudley Miles (talk) 20:44, 16 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Actually, I agree with your early point, the inclusion criteria is not defined here, but as to your latter point, the lists of alumni I've reviewed most certainly are not from a university source. That is simply untrue I'm afraid.  If you think "incomplete" lists should not be WP:FL then you should start an RFC to enshrine that in our guidelines.  Right now, that's just not the case.  The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 21:18, 16 June 2020 (UTC)
 * And just a point of information on your opening statement, that an "incomplete list" fails criterion 3, that's not actually true. Firstly it's only criterion 3a which is relevant here, which states clearly "It comprehensively covers the defined scope, providing at least all of the major items and, where practical, a complete set of items".  Now I think you have a point on "defined scope" as I mentioned above, but the clear statement following that which you haven't included in your opposition is "providing at least all of the major items" which means to say that a list doesn't have to be exhaustive if (as the next caveat in the criterion says) it's not "practical".  Bottom line here, it would be helpful to define the inclusion criteria.  The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 21:26, 16 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the clarification. As I see it, there are three issues. 1. The title article does not explain the content. 2. The criteria are not explained. 3. The nominator has also not explained how the article meets "It comprehensively covers the defined scope, providing at least all of the major items". On the last point, I am not sure whether I am correct or a reviewer should assume that the nominator has covered all major items. Can you advise on this please ? Dudley Miles (talk) 21:59, 16 June 2020 (UTC)
 * No worries. So (1) the title always needs to be succinct and that relates pertinently to your point (2) so as long as we (a) define the inclusion criteria and (b) come up with a snappy title which complies with that, no problem.  As for (3) that's a fair point and could/should result in a closer look at 3a if you really feel it's a problem.  It's a question of upon whom the burden is I suppose.  Once the criteria of this kind of open-ended list are suitably defined, it's primarily up to you to note omissions as there will never be a single source for a comprehensive list.  It's a far cry from a list of special scientific interest sites list (for example) which is completely defined in one URL, or a list of historical events completely covered in a book.  We have traditionally allowed dynamic list to exist as FL as long as the community consensus agrees that as much as possible has been done to include everything which meets the criteria.  So, back to that, it's up to  to provide the inclusion criteria here, and then we can move on to the next discourse, relating to comprehensiveness, right?  The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 22:08, 16 June 2020 (UTC)


 * Replies to concerns:
 * So, I just want to make sure...the "Incomplete" notation/template is correct/allowed yes?
 * The Rambling Man is the authority on that. Dudley Miles (talk) 10:11, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
 * In lists such as this (and alumni lists as I noted, for example) it's fine. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 11:36, 17 June 2020 (UTC)


 * Changing the title makes sense, I think something like List of cyclists who died in cycling-related incidents would be all-encompassing enough for the cyclists who died during a race and the cyclists who died while training or otherwise. The reason some of the "heart-attack people" are included is because there is a somewhat odd history of cyclists having heart issues during a race or during training, some experts saying that this is because they are cyclists - doping? Maybe. Over-exertion of the heart? Perhaps. The known health/heart issues of these amazing athletes has certainly at least become part of cycling's background noise, in somewhat the same way that Chronic traumatic encephalopathy has become associated with professional American football. Also cyclists who died after a race because of debilitating injuries suffered during a race are included as well. The amount of time that elapsed between the injury and the death seems somewhat immaterial.
 * I think it needs to be List of cyclists who died in cycling racing-related incidents or List of racing cyclists who died in cycling-related incidents. There must have been notable people who died in road cycling accidents not related to racing and who are not on this list. Dudley Miles (talk) 10:11, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Putting cycling in the title makes sense. Shearonink (talk) 06:40, 18 June 2020 (UTC)


 * Deleted the entry of Tim Johnson/coach who was killed during a race by a freak accident with a motorcycle but was not a cyclist per se.
 * How did I find them? Actually, I mostly didn't, I think predominantly other people did and I would then fix the entries up. Because of cycling's sprawling nature - European, 1890s, American, Brazil, South America, amateur, Olympic, professional teams, track cycling, motorcycle-assisted racing, road racing, marathon cycling, etc., etc. + its (in my opinion) really poor record-keeping - it is simply not possible for these names to have been listed in some governing body like a University's website or alumni association. For instance, in the course of improving the List I removed many entries from cycling's early days, say the 1890s into the 1930s, because no records could be found that backed up almost any facts about them, including their death or manner of death.
 * So then I come to the somewhat-combined issues of the inclusion criteria coupled with FLC's criteria 3a:
 * (3a) It comprehensively covers the defined scope, providing at least all of the major items and, where practical, a complete set of items; where appropriate, it has annotations that provide useful and appropriate information about the items.
 * With the title being changed I think that in and of itself helps to define the parameters for inclusion a little more succinctly but I am open to hashing out whatever the inclusion criteria could be, I just need to think on it a little bit more and test out some text to see what fulfills the needs of the article and the needs of the criteria.
 * If I understand correctly, is saying that nominators are not required to prove that all major items are covered because that would rule out many lists which should qualify for FL. I am happy to accept that and strike my oppose on the ground that it is the wording of the criteria which is at fault. It should be something like "providing at least all of the major items, although the nominator shall not be required to prove this if there are no reliable sources which are comprehensive". BTW I do not want to get involved with changing the criteria.
 * Thanks for changing your mind about that. Shearonink (talk) 19:02, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks, but my ping was not about the hatnote. It was about the point above. Dudley Miles (talk) 14:46, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure how you could absolutely prove it for such incomplete lists. But as long as the community consensus agrees that enough has been done to incorporate the major items, that should be enough.  After all, it's the community's decision really.  The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 15:28, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
 * One last thought...I'll confess, I am feeling a little blindsided here. None of these issues were brought up in the previous FLC. These are valid concerns it's just that each time I have submitted this List to FLC something completely new has come up. I'll do my best to work with interested editors/commentators and to hopefully improve the List to being a FL according to the FLC criteria. Thanks, Shearonink (talk) 03:28, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
 * One last point is that in some cases you only provide a location or even just a reference. I do not think this is adequate for FL. If details of the cause of death are not available, the cyclist should not be in the list. Dudley Miles (talk) 10:11, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Could you give maybe one example of this inadequacy that you're referring to? In your opinion, what details must/should/ought to be present to satisfy the FL criteria? Thanks, Shearonink (talk) 19:02, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
 * 1. Jules Orieggia "Died during a stayers race at the Marseille velodrome". No cause of death given. 2. Josef Schwarzer "Düsseldorf track" Ditto. 3. Ernst Wolf [63]. No details at all.
 * It has just occurred to me that you include motorcycle pacemakers, so not only cyclists. Dudley Miles (talk) 20:16, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
 * The pacemakers are included because they were often cyclists as well plus the pacemaker & the cyclist were considered a team.
 * So far as I can tell, the names that are being commented upon as lacking detailed info on their deaths are as follows:
 * Jules Orieggia/1904, Josef Schwarzer/1907, Ernst Wolf/1907, Fritz Theile/1911, Hans Bachmann/1913, Hans Lange/1913, August Kraft/1913, Max Hansen/1913, Max Bauer1917, Louis Darragon/1918, Hans Schneider/1920, Emanuel Kudela/1920, Franz Krupkat/1927, Emil Richli/1934, Stefan Veger/1936, Karl Kaminski/1978, Emilio Ravasio/1986, Saúl Morales/2000 This entry has gotten more text + an additional reference. Shearonink (talk) 20:24, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Ernst Wolf/1907 Wolf's notes have been fleshed out. Shearonink (talk) 09:00, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I think I have just found reliable info for Morales (aka Saúl Morales Corral) but for the 1904-1934 deaths I am not sure it is possible. Besides anything else (like the lack of a central cycling database or overarching cycling organization), I would think that the records of at least some of the 1904-ca1918 deaths (especially of German cyclists) would have been possibly destroyed by the 2 World Wars since (+ the division of Germany post WWII), and for the ca.1918-1930s deaths, well WWII happened plus Germany being divided. I don't know - that's all I got. If more detailed information exists for these men I have been unable to find it, and when some of the fabulous German editors with an interest in cycling have happened by they seem to also have been unable to find any more than what is in the article now . Many of the entries on the German cyclists especially the early ones from the 1890s until the 1930s - were found in the stacks/archives of (I think?) the German State Library and the facts are as the editor found them. It seems the negative that is being applied in the comments is because of the abundance of information for some of the individuals, so then the scarcity of information for others stands out but should all the names be equal in their scarcity? The deaths of the scarce-info bunch occurred, they occurred on a track, they occurred during a race. I am not sure that each parameter needs to be equal in its information. I think it is fair to point out that there are other FLs that do not treat their various entries' related parameters exactly the same, for instance List of films of the Dutch East Indies has parameters that are marked "Unknown", List of roller coaster rankings has N/A parameters, List of deaths from drug overdose and intoxication has entries whose Notes sections are empty...
 * And Karl Kaminski, who died in 1978. Well, the List could state he died when he was hit by a truck during training but my source for that statement is the (translated) German Wikipedia article on Kaminski:
 * On October 7, 1978, he fell on the Alfred Rosch arena in Leipzig after a puncture and died the following day in the hospital. He was the last stayer to have been killed in an accident on a German cycle track.
 * but that information is not sourced at that article and I have been unable to find any published info that backs up the statement. So should individual entries be stripped out of the List because other cyclists have more information? I think that at one time Location of death and additional information was possibly called Notes but am not sure that changing the title of the section would be an improvement but am open to suggestions.
 * and - Thanks to both for all your comments. Shearonink (talk) 06:40, 18 June 2020 (UTC)


 * There appears to be further information such as how Ernst Wolf died on the German list.
 * Ernst Wolf's entry has been added to. Thanks for that. Shearonink (talk) 09:00, 19 June 2020 (UTC)


 * I am not sure of the rules but I think the nominator should have checked all references, or know that someone reliable has checked them. Some, such as Hans Bachmann with "Sport-Album der Rad-Welt, Vol. 12/1913, p. 7. Berlin, Verlag Rad-Welt." do not look as if you could have checked them. I suggest that you compare any references you cannot check with the German list, add a note which refs you are relying on the German article for, and delete any names which are not satisfactorily referenced in the German list. Dudley Miles (talk) 07:40, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I assumed good faith on the part of the editor who provided the Sport-Album der Rad-Welt references from their library archives, the same way I would assume a book reference is valid that has been provided but that I do not have physical access to. Of course  I could not check them, the sources reside in a different country, are written in a different language, and are in the stacks or archives of a library so are not available for lending. Also, I am not aware of a guideline, policy, part of the WP-MOS etc that states we cannot accept reliable references that are written in a language other than English.
 * Regarding your suggestion that we check the Eng WP's List against the German WP List, the same editor who worked with me on improving the List ca. 2013 and who provided all the Sport-Album referencing here also has done much of the editing on the German WP's List. She has not edited here since 2014 but I will attempt tp get in touch and see if she has any additional input. Shearonink (talk) 09:00, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
 * OK. When you said that most of the entries had been added by other editors I got the impression that they were people you do not know. If it is an editor you have worked with, that is of course different. Dudley Miles (talk) 09:46, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Ah ok...when I said entries I was referring to the cyclists' names themselves. Take a look at the List when I started editing it plus often when names have been added by drive-by editors, the references have been missing or haven't been the best. It's been a long, looooong slog to get this List to its present state, to getting at least one reliable reference concerning the death of every. single. cyclist. on the List. My German Wikipedia-friend was instrumental in fleshing out the early cyclists' entries, meaning the referenced information that verifies their existence, their cycling status, and their deaths insofar as any of that is possible. I did delete names/entries from the List that no references were found for. Shearonink (talk) 15:52, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

Further comments
 * "part of cycling's historic record and memorializing culture" The ref appears to be for pacemakers, not for this statement.
 * The ref is for what pacemakers are. The statement you mention goes to the core of the List - the matter of cyclists' deaths is simply part of the culture of the sport. The massive funerals, the competitions named for the deceased, the roadside memorials/pilgrimage site...all speak to the culture. That's it. Shearonink (talk) 17:29, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * It still needs referencing and you do not need it here as it is covered in the fourth paragraph. Dudley Miles (talk) 12:28, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Deleted. I liked the phrase and it was part of the definition of the List but Ok - Deleted. Shearonink (talk) 18:36, 6 July 2020 (UTC)


 * "Related events and risks factor into cyclists' deaths." What does this mean? I would delete.
 * Done. Shearonink (talk) 17:29, 5 July 2020 (UTC)


 * "After the death of Andrey Kivilev in a crash during the 2003 Paris-Nice race the Union Cycliste Internationale instituted a mandatory helmet rule." This is unreferenced.
 * I don't understand why this has been brought up a second time. This statement does not have to be referenced in the lead section, it is referenced within the List, see Ref #191/Velo News. Shearonink (talk) 17:29, 5 July 2020 (UTC)


 * "Collided with his pacer" I think it is better to stick to the spelling pacemaker.
 * Done. Shearonink (talk) 17:29, 5 July 2020 (UTC)


 * "Died shortly after an accident at the Düsseldorf Germany track that happened when one of his tires went out." What does "tires went out" mean?
 * Blew out/went flat in the course of/during a race? Adjusted for clarity. Shearonink (talk) 17:29, 5 July 2020 (UTC)


 * "Died of a fatal skull fracture suffered during the Berlin Six-Day race held in March" Why "in March" when it is in the date column?
 * Because that year - unlike the usual way of these races - there were two SIx-Day Races held in Berlin. It came up during some talkpage discussions so it is important to make sure the reader understands which race is being referenced. Shearonink (talk) 17:29, 5 July 2020 (UTC)


 * "Finished race but then died on June 29, 1951" Suggest "Finished race but died the next day."
 * Done. Shearonink (talk) 17:29, 5 July 2020 (UTC)


 * "She died as a result of a single-bike crash when she hit a tree during the 2000 BMC Tour event in Arlington/Boston." I would delete "as a result of a single-bike crash".
 * Done. Shearonink (talk) 17:29, 5 July 2020 (UTC)


 * "Stabbed to death with a screwdriver during practice" I do not think this counts as a cycling related death.
 * I'd rather keep it. Shearonink (talk)


 * Why have sub-sections for periods (such as 1990 to 2000) in the training when you do not in the races?
 * Because I wanted to. Because that's the way I edited it when I was converting the Plainlist to a Table-format. Is there a criteria reason for not having the separate sections? Shearonink (talk) 17:29, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Now that I think about it, perhaps the "During a race" section should be converted to decade-tables. Having one huge table for all of the racing cyclists/pacemakers' deaths during races in cycling's history might not be the best way to handle that mountain of information... Shearonink (talk) 17:41, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * It is fine with or without decade tables so long as you are consistent and have the same format in both tables. Dudley Miles (talk) 12:28, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I have been thinking about the During a race/training sections for quite a while. Even before I asked for feedback in fall 2019/this past spring, ever since the first FLC. I personally liked the 2 different styles, I thought they were appropriate, it never occurred to me that they would or could be an issue but... I took into account what editors other than myself had said about the 2 sections being Plainlist/Table in this FLC and in the previous FLC + information about the cyclists' being as accessible to readers as possible so I (finally - yes I *know*) converted the decades/Plainlist into the Table-format. So. You are saying that both sections must be identical in their appearance/construction. Shearonink (talk) 18:36, 6 July 2020 (UTC)


 * Notes 15 and 16 should be merged - although I do not know how to do that in the #tag:ref format.
 * Done. Oh yeah...these two were doozys to figure out how to adjust....yikes, what FUN. Shearonink (talk) 17:29, 5 July 2020 (UTC)


 * I would delete Taylor as you say his death not certainly connected to cycling. Dudley Miles (talk) 15:51, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * It is not proven to be connected to cycling just the same way that heart attacks are not proven to be connected to cycling but this was a man who competed at a world-class level and yet less than a year later he was dead of TB. I am loath to remove his name. Shearonink (talk) 17:29, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Support. Looks fine apart from the different formats of the two tables. I think they should be the same but it is not a deal breaker. Dudley Miles (talk) 21:09, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you for all your work & attention to detail on this FLC. Cheers, Shearonink (talk) 22:11, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

Possible title changes
Since various different possible titles have been mentioned above, I thought it would be useful to gather them all up in one place. In a list no less! 1:List of cyclists with a cycling-related death 2:List of people who died as a result of incidents connected with cycle racing 3:List of racing cyclists who died in cycling-related incidents 4:List of cyclists who died in cycling-related incidents
 * present title. Considered problematic because it is not specific enough. Runs afoul of 3a criteria. Shearonink (talk) 22:45, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
 * This covers the subject/s but seems somewhat unwieldy. Shearonink (talk) 22:45, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
 * This seems like it would also cover people who died while watching from the sideline or driving a pace car. BD2412  T 16:57, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
 * my favorite. Succinct, not too wordy, covers both during racing, during training, health issues following a crash, etc. Shearonink (talk) 22:45, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
 * descriptive but a little too broad in scope. Shearonink (talk) 22:45, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
 * List of cyclists and pacemakers who died in cycling racing-related incidents is a little unwieldy but seems to me the most accurate. It covers pacemakers and excludes spectators and racing cyclists killed in ordinary road accidents, neither of which appear to be covered. Dudley Miles (talk) 07:15, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Might be the most accurate but having two gerunds in a row "cycling racing'...might yes be unwieldy also perhaps hard to quickly?easily understand... Shearonink (talk) 09:00, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
 * List of racing cyclists and pacemakers who died in racing-related incidents - How about this version? the term racing comes before cyclists and can be taken to also describe pacemakers and then stating it is racing-related would cover during a race, while training, health issues like the rash of heart attacks, injuries that cyclists succumb to even if years later... Shearonink (talk) 08:35, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Or List of cyclists and pacemakers who died in cycle racing-related incidents. Dudley Miles (talk) 13:57, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Sounds fine. &  - does this proposed title run afoul of any List-title conventions? Seems to be the most succinct & descriptive version we've  come up with. Shearonink (talk) 22:23, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I suggest going ahead with the move to the new name. It will be easier to make relevant comments on the article then. Dudley Miles (talk) 14:51, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Isn't a pacemaker just another kind of cyclist in this context? BD2412  T 16:58, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Sort of, but not really. They were members of the same cycling team. Shearonink (talk) 01:51, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
 * No. See Motor-paced racing, which should be linked to pacemakers in the first paragraph. Dudley Miles (talk) 17:09, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
 * It  is  linked in the first paragraph: As follows:
 * Pacemakers were and are motorcyclists utilized in motor-paced racing, riding motorcycles in front of their teammates to provide an additional boost of speed to those cyclists via the resulting slipstreams.
 * Pacemakers were and are motorcyclists utilized in motor-paced racing, riding motorcycles in front of their teammates to provide an additional boost of speed to those cyclists via the resulting slipstreams.
 * That is in the second paragraph. I think pacemakers should be linked to Motor-paced racing on the first mention in the first paragraph. Dudley Miles (talk) 08:53, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Ok. Shearonink (talk) 19:44, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
 * - Done. Shearonink (talk) 19:44, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
 * - I was advised that it made sense for the term to be defined in the lead section. In my memory the List has never made a distinction between the historic early racing pacemakers and their stayers (their cyclists), but for our readers who are unfamiliar with the different terms and keeping in mind inclusion criteria it would seem to make sense to define who/what they are and to include them in the title. There were quite a few who were killed on those early racing tracks. Shearonink (talk) 01:51, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

Proposed title:
 * List of racing cyclists and pacemakers with a cycling-related death -
 * I've been thinking a lot about what the title of this List should be, what reads better on the page, what is as simple as possible but covers the List's subject and its inclusion criteria (including heart conditions/heart attacks, deaths while training, deaths occurring after - sometimes long after - an accident but because of the accident, etc) and this last one is what I came up with. It has 18 syllables to the last/previous proposal's 21: List of cyclists and pacemakers who died in cycle racing-related incidents and in my opinion flows better. Unless there are objections I will move the List to the new title within the next few days. Shearonink (talk) 18:05, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I am fine with that and will do a full review once the title change has gone through. Dudley Miles (talk) 21:13, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * - Done. Shearonink (talk) 04:02, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * We agreed on List of cyclists and pacemakers who died in cycle racing-related incidents. Why the change to a new name which is inferior in my opinion? This title would cover an incident in which a cyclist was involved in the death of a spectator. Dudley Miles (talk) 08:20, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * See proposed title at the beginning of this subsection. My impression was that you had agreed to it by saying "I am fine with that...". Shearonink (talk) 15:22, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
 * There are no separate entries for spectators in the List. Spectators' deaths are mentioned once in the List and that is in the Notes which explains the at least 47 deaths in cycling's early days did not include any people who were at an event to watch the racing (for instance, the 9 fans/bystanders who died in the terrible accident at the Friedenau track in 1909). Shearonink (talk) 04:35, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
 * OK. It is my fault for not reading your proposal carefully enough and there is no point pursuing the name change further. I will do a full review in the next few days. Dudley Miles (talk) 08:07, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
 * See you then. Shearonink (talk) 16:59, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

Criteria for inclusion
Let's say the title was changed to List of racing cyclists and pacemakers who died in racing-related incidents or something similar - that starts to take care of the inclusion criteria issues but not all. I was looking at other cycling FLs for guidance and came across List of Tour de France general classification winners. I was told at some point that FLs had been moving away from stating "This is a list of [the subject title]" or "List of [whatever] is [etc]" so in 2012 I changed the lead sentence from its then-version "List of" form:
 * List of professional cyclists who died during a race documents the deaths of professional cyclists while participating in their sport, starting with the first verified deaths in the 1890s

to another version which has since morphed into the present statement. If the lead were changed to something along the lines of the following (plus moving the List to the associated/changed title) would that be enough to satisfy concerns regarding the inclusion criteria:
 * This is a list of racing cyclists and pacemakers who died in racing-related incidents including racetrack accidents, health-related incidents, and incidents that happened during training. The first documented deaths of cyclists during competition or training date to the 1890s and early 1900s when the then recently-invented safety or two-wheel bicycle made cycling more popular to the masses, but by 1929 at least 47 professional riders and pacemakers had died at velodromes in track cycling. A number of professionals and competitive amateurs have been killed in accidents with motorized vehicles while training on public roads in the past few decades and after the death of Andrey Kivilev in a crash during the 2003 Paris-Nice race the Union Cycliste Internationale instituted a mandatory helmet rule.

So. Would those changes or something similar satisfy the concerns about the List's inclusion criteria? Shearonink (talk) 20:28, 20 June 2020 (UTC)


 * There is an informal ban on starting an article "This is a list. I suggest making the first paragraph a brief history of cycle racing, including an explanation of pacememakers in the main text, and when and why they ceased to be used. You can then go into deaths in the succeeding paragraphs. I would not use the Forbes report on most dangerous sport. It is not a reliable source, it does not report deaths and it does not report proportional figures. If people spend 100 times as long cycling as playing football then a comparison of raw numbers is meaningless. Your refs 7 and 8 are ambiguous whether they are talking about professional cycling and vague about comparing numbers participating in different sports. Dudley Miles (talk) 10:14, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
 * - Done. I've instituted your suggested changes. Let me know what you think. Shearonink (talk) 21:07, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

Suggestion of section headings and templates
I have no problem with the two styles of lists. I do find odd the missing time period 1929-1993, and then the odd splits of 1994-2000 followed by a partial decade (2010-2018) and then 2020-present, omitting the single year 2019. The Template:Expand list leaves such a pathetically small notation, and placed at the top of the page (prior to the lede and table of contents) makes it so inconspicuous as to be useless to the lists themselves. I would suggest you use more decade-friendly section headings and use Template:Dynamic list at the top of each section (alerting the reader that there may well be missing entries). Maybe try these brackets: 1900-1989, 1990-2009, 2010-2019, 2020-present... or 1900-1990, 1991-2010, 2011-present (changing later to 2011-2020, 2021-present). Normal Op (talk) 17:14, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your comments and suggestions.
 * Done - Shearonink (talk) 17:42, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

Sections & Tables & Plainlists...oh MY
,
 * Done. Shearonink (talk) 23:10, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Anything else? Shearonink (talk) 23:10, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

Comments from Medusa

 * The table has |scope="row". Activate the scope by adding !scope="row"
 * Sorry, but what does that mean, what is the code not doing in its present state. Shearonink (talk) 18:21, 9 July 2020 (UTC)


 * during competition that year → during the competition
 * during competition is not incorrect, it does not need the article to define the word. Shearonink (talk) 18:21, 9 July 2020 (UTC)


 * commentator wrote → wrote: "
 * Done Shearonink (talk) 18:21, 9 July 2020 (UTC)


 * Died on the 22nd from aftereffects of crash, → of the crash
 * Article not needed but ok. Done Shearonink (talk) 18:21, 9 July 2020 (UTC)


 * during a stayers race at the Marseille velodrome → is it Marseille Vélodrome?
 * It is rendered as velodrome of Marseille in the one source and not mentioned in the other so?...I don't know. I don't think so, I can only go by what the sources say. Shearonink (talk) 18:21, 9 July 2020 (UTC)


 * damage from the fall, as afterwards he → as afterwards,
 * Not done - comma seems superfluous there. It's a continuous thought. Shearonink (talk) 18:21, 9 July 2020 (UTC)


 * track with his brother Otto as pacemaker → as a pacemaker
 * Article not needed to define the word. Shearonink (talk) 18:21, 9 July 2020 (UTC)


 * Johnson was riding on the Princes Highway, when → Princes Highway when
 * Done Shearonink (talk) 18:21, 9 July 2020 (UTC)


 * In 1943 at the age of 55 he → the age of 55, he
 * Done Shearonink (talk) 18:21, 9 July 2020 (UTC)


 * The death rates for cyclists in general differs → cyclists, in general, differ from
 * Done Shearonink (talk) 18:21, 9 July 2020 (UTC)


 * was also winner of the 1901 New York Madison → was also the winner of
 * Not done. I don't think "the" is needed here. I suppose the general style is a summary style, dispensing with articles such as "a" & "the" - it does not seem to me to be incorrect. Shearonink (talk) 18:21, 9 July 2020 (UTC)


 * In his last year of competition he placed → competition, he placed
 * Is a comma actually needed there? Is it ungrammatical to not have a comma? Shearonink (talk) 18:21, 9 July 2020 (UTC)


 * The table kind of looks flat. Is there something to enhance it?
 * ?Table looks flat... I'm not sure what you mean by that statement. Shearonink (talk) 18:21, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Done When I did the ! row changes that automatically changed the background color of the Name column/cells, so the darker iteration is the default. So now more flat-looking table. Shearonink (talk) 23:11, 17 July 2020 (UTC)
 * That's it for now.  CAPTAIN MEDUSA   talk  12:09, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your comments. Shearonink (talk) 18:21, 9 July 2020 (UTC)


 * Was there anything else? I responded to your Comments but have some questions about the scope coding & the "table kind of looks flat". Thanks, Shearonink (talk) 04:20, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
 * For example, see List of deaths from drug overdose and intoxication's table. Adding a darker theme to the name will probably do it.   CAPTAIN MEDUSA   talk  11:30, 13 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I took a look at some other similar Featured Lists (including List of HIV-positive people and List of people with brain tumors). Having a single cell be a different color seems to be a style-decision for "List of deaths from drug overdose and intoxication" as opposed to an FL criteria/guideline/policy but I'll play around with switching out the background color on the name cell/column to see if the change seems like a good fit - I was thinking the photos editors have been able to find of the various cyclists for this FLC would have been enough to add visual interest? but maybe not.
 * The one dark column in the List of deaths from drug overdose and intoxication you mentioned is apparently the default. I have been unable to figure out how to make a single column have a single background color all the way down throughout the Table. Any ideas or useful Help pages etc so I could figure out how to make an entire column have one bg color? If you can show me an example of the code that is the most useful way for me to learn - sometimes the Help pages aren't the most helpful for non-coders like myself. If you know how to do it please do not change the code in the List yourself, I'm like a toddler who says "Me do!" - that's the best way for me to learn (no matter how painful it might be for the teacher). Thanks, Shearonink (talk) 18:40, 13 July 2020 (UTC)
 * , This edit might help you . Also, I think that moving images after the name will make it look better.  CAPTAIN MEDUSA   talk  06:40, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
 * - Thanks for the dummy edit, but, Ok, yes I knew that I could change all 119 Name cells individually in the During a Race Table, but you are telling me there is NO way to change a Column's background color en masse... I have to go through the entire Table and change the background color of each individual "Name" cell? Shearonink (talk)
 * And just making sure I understand what you're stating here - You are saying that the Photo cells & Column and the Name Cells & Column must be switched. Shearonink (talk) 18:23, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Done The Name column & the Image column have been switched on the During Table. All the Images & Names have also been adjusted accordingly. I think this massive change satisfies your concerns about "flatness". Am taking a break, will get to the Training tables sometime later this week. Shearonink (talk) 22:10, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
 * , You could use the Search and replace tool. Use this format Search: | scope="row" Replace: ! scope="row" then click on replace all. Make sure to edit sections only.  CAPTAIN MEDUSA   talk  12:13, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
 * - Ok, yes I could but I am thinking that I am not sure I want to change the background color of that column (actually individual cells). This seems to be an esthetic decision/design choice/personal preference that isn't part of the FL criteria. I'll have to think about it but feel free to convince me. Shearonink (talk) 13:24, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
 * What about the scope/code issue, where you wrote
 * The table has |scope="row". Activate the scope by adding !scope="row"
 * I don't understand what is wrong with the way it is now, need an explanation/links to the appropriate MOS-Table URLs so I can fix it and know for next time. Thanks, Shearonink (talk) 14:43, 13 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Tables are not my strong suit around here. Please, I need you to explain what is wrong with the present coding. I need to understand why I need to change it. Thanks, Shearonink (talk) 18:23, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
 * - Could I get some guidance on the table has |scope="row". Activate the scope by adding !scope="row" issue? As I have said above I do not understand what you are asking here and I do not understand the why either. I need to know both please. Shearonink (talk) 13:24, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
 * it means that the row should start with "!scope=row", not "|scope=row". As it stands, a screen reader will not be able to pick up the scopes.  Should be able to quickly do it with a search-and-replace I would have thought..... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 16:24, 17 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the explanation - the "why" is a big help. So it means that every line with "|scope=row" needs to instead have "!scope=row", correct? (and yeah, TG for Search & Replace). Shearonink (talk) 18:53, 17 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, that's correct -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 20:27, 17 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Done. &  - was there anything else? Shearonink (talk) 23:11, 17 July 2020 (UTC)
 * The !row correction took care of your concern about the Flat-table issue/Name column not being a darker color - is there anything else? Thanks, Shearonink (talk) 16:12, 21 July 2020 (UTC)


 * Further comments.
 * Unreliable sources.


 * Welford Road Cemetery Leicester
 * Welford Road Cemetery's website has gone dark, I doubt that it was unreliable but it is in addition to other refs so it's been removed. Shearonink (talk) 21:48, 22 July 2020 (UTC)


 * stuyfssportverhalen.wordpress.com and stuyfssportverhalen.com (clearly says its a blog site)
 * Re:stuyfssportverhalen - Just because a source is a blog doesn't necessarily mean that it is in and of itself unreliable. Per WP:RSSELF - Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established expert on the subject matter, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable, independent publications & per Identifying and using self-published works references to a blog/website written by an expert are allowed, please see André Stuyfersant's writing bio + André Stuyfersant has authored three books - see wielersportboeken website + Mr. Stuyfersant was published in the Stadsblad newspaper. His output at the Stadsblad seems inaccessible online, so I've relied on his publications in his blog. Shearonink (talk) 21:48, 22 July 2020 (UTC)


 * cyclehistory.wordpress.com → blog site
 * Re:cyclehistory.wordpress.com - is not clearly unreliable but I'll remove it since it is just an additional ref for the differing dates of Jimmy Michael's debilitating accident. Mr Cripps' work seems scrupulous to me but ok. Shearonink (talk) 21:48, 22 July 2020 (UTC)


 * Other comments.
 * In references there are sites like www.nytimes.com. The New York Times. → It should just be NYT in italics.
 * What is this rule/guideline for an italicized "NYT". If the publisher/website is an entity like The New York Times and they have a Wikipedia article isn't that supposed to be Wikilinked? Shearonink (talk) 21:48, 22 July 2020 (UTC)


 * Some references are missing site names.
 * Site names? Do you mean the website as in "website="? I have to take a break, your comment isn't making complete sense to me at the moment, will take another look sometime within the next few days. Maybe you could explain exactly what you mean in this instance. (Policies/guidelines/examples are always a help to me in cases like this.) Shearonink (talk) 21:48, 22 July 2020 (UTC)


 * There is too much shouting in ref name.
 * I think you are mainly referring to the Raul Motos ref - Ref #145 - I was preserving the original appearance of the article's title + concern about diacritics but those seem to disappear in the caps anyway so I've converted the title to This Appearance. Shearonink (talk) 21:48, 22 July 2020 (UTC)


 * In website name remove .com .de etc and correctly format them
 * Done I think it's done...in a late night of editing I converted all of the websites to .com etc - made more work for myself. I admit this rule of giving the name of the website and not actual URL seems kind of odd to me...the website is the .com, the .de, etc. I puzzled over how to adjust the dw.com website and finally gave up - not supposed to put publisher and website if the same but dw.com is not the same as the broadcaster and...anyway, decided to leave it as Deutsche Wells. All now fixed. I think. Shearonink (talk) 21:48, 22 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I will check the rest after these have been resolved. Sorry about the late response I have been quite busy.  CAPTAIN MEDUSA   talk  18:36, 22 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Some resolved, some maybe not. Let me know what your thoughts are on the Stuyfssportverhalen website/blog as a source. Shearonink (talk) 21:48, 22 July 2020 (UTC)


 * OH. You're not saying it should be literally NYT in italics but that all mentions of The New York Times as the website=/publisher= etcneeds to be rendered as The New York Times . So for New York Times refs, no publisher, just a Wikilink for the website. Ok. Done Shearonink (talk) 15:45, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
 * OH. You're not saying it should be literally NYT in italics but that all mentions of The New York Times as the website=/publisher= etcneeds to be rendered as The New York Times . So for New York Times refs, no publisher, just a Wikilink for the website. Ok. Done Shearonink (talk) 15:45, 23 July 2020 (UTC)


 * Done Shearonink (talk) 15:45, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
 * It should be like that.  CAPTAIN MEDUSA   talk  11:57, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I went through and checked all the website='s, etc. - think I caught all the errant .com's, the .de's, the nl's, etc. - they should be all gone at this point. I hope. Shearonink (talk) 15:45, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I went through and checked all the website='s, etc. - think I caught all the errant .com's, the .de's, the nl's, etc. - they should be all gone at this point. I hope. Shearonink (talk) 15:45, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

Further comments from ChrisTheDude

 * I would merge the last two paragraphs of the lead, both of which are only two sentences
 * Done Shearonink (talk) 18:37, 18 July 2020 (UTC)


 * Bert Harris's entry amusingly says he was participating in a face :-)
 * Done F & R are so close together...operator error please proceed... Shearonink (talk) 18:37, 18 July 2020 (UTC)


 * "in which also his brother Marcel participated" => "in which his brother Marcel also participated"
 * Done Shearonink (talk) 18:37, 18 July 2020 (UTC)


 * "Olympia track Berlin" => "Olympia track, Berlin"
 * Done Shearonink (talk) 18:37, 18 July 2020 (UTC)


 * Raul Motos entry has a stray <
 * Done Shearonink (talk) 18:37, 18 July 2020 (UTC)


 * Tom Simpson entry should have a comma after hospital, not a full stop
 * Done Shearonink (talk) 18:37, 18 July 2020 (UTC)


 * "Goffin crashes and, after spending six days in a coma, dies from his injuries" - randomly written in the present tense when everything else is in the past tense
 * Done Shearonink (talk) 18:37, 18 July 2020 (UTC)


 * There's a random mixture of "Road cyclist" and "road cyclist" in the competitive status column - be consistent
 * Will get to that and the rest in another pass. Life is interfering with my Wikipedia-ing atm. Shearonink (talk) 18:37, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Done. Shearonink (talk) 03:55, 19 July 2020 (UTC)


 * In the Ben Sonntag entry, 2 should be written as a word
 * Done Shearonink (talk) 19:07, 18 July 2020 (UTC)


 * Note 9 - "See "Opgevouwen op zijn fietsje de dood tegemoet" (Folded to death on his bike)." - what is this? A book?  A newspaper article?  Something else entirely?
 * It is a reference in the List, Reference # 69. I thought it was important to mention that the date of the accident/death varies in different sources. Perhaps it could be rendered more elegantly, but I did the best I could with what I was able to find. Shearonink (talk) 03:55, 19 July 2020 (UTC)
 * If it's a reference then make it a proper reference at that point in the list -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:21, 22 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I deleted that Note. That reference exists further on and is the only one I could find that had a different date. If readers read that source then they'll see there's a discrepancy but I doubt anyone cares but me. Shearonink (talk) 10:48, 22 July 2020 (UTC)


 * Note 14 is missing a space in "Motorcyclist(Volume 71)" and also in "of a 'A Thousand Laps'(150 km)"
 * Done for Motorcyclist - It's not [Title](Volume)? Ok, if you say so. Seems to fit for the Thousand Laps. Shearonink (talk) 19:07, 18 July 2020 (UTC)


 * Note 16 should have 2 written as a word
 * Done Shearonink (talk) 19:07, 18 July 2020 (UTC)


 * I don't think note 25 is needed personally. If it is kept then "As the template at the beginning of the List says "This is a dynamic list and may never be able to satisfy particular standards for completeness. You can help by expanding it with reliably sourced entries."" definitely needs to go, reiterating what the template says is not appropriate at all.
 * The only reason I put this Note in is because editors are bringing it up from time to time and the gap has come up in the FLCs, you know...along the lines of "Why is there a gap?!? I'd like to forestall any future drive-by editing or Commenting that Stuff Must Be Missing Because of The Gap. Have adjusted it a bit - see what you think. Shearonink (talk) 19:07, 18 July 2020 (UTC)


 * Note 27 has two full stops at the end, and "(See German Wikipedia article: Edouard Taylor)" is not appropriate, as what seems to be going on here is that you are using another Wikipedia article as a source, which is not permitted.
 * I am not using that German Wikipedia article as a source, I am pointing interested readers to it as a See Also - that isn't clear from the "See German Wikipedia" phrase? I couldn't figure out any other way to let English Wikipedia readers know that the German Wikipedia has an article on the man. I can delete that complete "See..." phrase if it is truly needful. Shearonink (talk) 19:07, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
 * It should be deleted -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:21, 22 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Seems a shame to not let readers know that there is an article in another Wikipedia about the man but ok - deleted the link from the List. Also deleted any references to tuberculosis since the German Wikipedia article is the only mention online that I could find about that specific illness. So I guess it's not clear exactly how Edouard Taylor died, and he is mentioned in Andrew Ritchie's Early Bicycles and the Quest for Speed: A History, 1868-1903, in a list of cycling-accident deaths along with Elkes, Gornemann, Kaser, Dangla, et al. Shearonink (talk) 10:48, 22 July 2020 (UTC)


 * Ref 47 - ""Walter Rutt quote (undated cutting)". Journal, Fellowship of Cycling Old-Timers.. From Jimmy Michael" - what is this?
 * What is says it is. An undated cutting that is referenced in the Jimmy Michael article:
 * Walter Rutt, the world sprint champion in 1913, said Michael began drinking because of an "everlasting headache" which followed his fall at Berlin.." Shearonink (talk) 19:07, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
 * The full and correctly formatted reference needs to be in this article. Essentially at the moment you are saying "there's a reference for that but you need to go and look in another article for it", which isn't permitted -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:21, 22 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't have access to this undated cutting that was republished in a past edition of the "Fellowship of Cycling Old Timers'" magazine so it's been deleted. Shearonink (talk) 10:48, 22 July 2020 (UTC)


 * Refs 206, 280 and 296 do not list what the work/publisher is
 * Done Shearonink (talk) 03:55, 19 July 2020 (UTC)


 * Ref 241 has a broken parameter
 * Done Shearonink (talk) 19:07, 18 July 2020 (UTC)


 * Think that's it on the latest pass -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 16:47, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
 * - Thanks for all your attention to the List. It has been such a massive undertaking and in the early days, especially, had attention from many different quarters - bits have obviously escaped me since I have become so familiar with the subjects & sources. Will continue on later this weekend. Hope it's ok that I adjusted your punctuation/code for this section to be a sub-header instead, it helps me keep my responses clear. Shearonink (talk) 18:37, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Taking a break, I'm sure there will be more. Goodnight, Shearonink (talk) 03:55, 19 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Any more passes? Stuff that needs to be fixed? Is everything ok? Thanks, Shearonink (talk) 06:15, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I fixed a few typos, removed a lot of unnecessary full stops and made a couple of other tweaks. Now OK to support -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 19:10, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Those full stops cause me so much grief! Sorry there were so many of them, thank you for fixing them all - Muchly appreciated. Shearonink (talk) 21:38, 4 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Support.  CAPTAIN MEDUSA   talk  12:42, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your review-comments and for helping me to improve this List. Shearonink (talk) 20:22, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

Source review - Pass
Wow this is some list, good work so far! This source review will likely take some time, so I may do it in chunks. Aza24 (talk) 07:09, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Ref 1 needs an ISBN 13 (use the converter)
 * Done Shearonink (talk) 07:22, 14 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Yale University Press, Cyclingnews.com , University of California Press , American Journal of Sports Medicine , The Argus , BBC , Taylor & Francis , New York World , Random House , The Telegraph , The Age and The Independent need links
 * Done. Shearonink (talk) 18:26, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Cyclingnews.com - Done. Shearonink (talk) 15:55, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Yale U Press - Done. Shearonink (talk) 15:55, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
 * University of California Press - Done. Shearonink (talk) 18:26, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
 * American Journal of Sports Med - Done. Shearonink (talk) 18:26, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
 * The Argus - Done. Shearonink (talk) 18:26, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
 * BBC - Done. Shearonink (talk) 18:26, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Taylor & Francis - Done. Shearonink (talk) 18:26, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
 * The World/New York World - Done. But a word...The newspaper was technically called The World on its masthead. Shearonink (talk) 18:26, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Random House - Done. Shearonink (talk) 18:26, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
 * The Telegraph - Done. Shearonink (talk) 18:26, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
 * The Age - Done. Shearonink (talk) 18:26, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
 * The Independent - Done. Shearonink (talk) 18:26, 14 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Why California Digital Newspaper Collection/University of California Riverside listed twice in ref 19?
 * Because the website & the publisher seemed to me to be one and the same. The original newspaper was The San Francisco Call but that is not the exact source that is available online for verifiability. What to do... Shearonink (talk) 07:22, 14 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Publisher for ref 36? (Horman 2011)
 * Done Shearonink (talk) 19:00, 14 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Ref 42 is formatted differently then 19, although I think they have the same publishers
 * Done They have been brought into agreement with each other. Shearonink (talk) 07:22, 14 August 2020 (UTC)


 * What makes 43 a reliable source?
 * Babylon Wales is a blog that was published 2006-2014, written by Anthony Brockway a writer who has also been published in other venues/magazines - Planet Magazine/planetmagazine.org.uk, New Welsh Review/https://newwelshreview.com/, etc. This particular ref gives the details on the poster of Jimmy Michael that was drawn by Toulouse-Lautrec. Shearonink (talk) 07:22, 14 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Mangan ref 45 should have "pp. 130–131" not "p.130, 131"
 * Done Shearonink (talk) 07:22, 14 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Ref 26 should have a space between the p. and 127 – that is the standard at least
 * Done Looks a little weird but done. Shearonink (talk) 07:22, 14 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Ref 47 McKay needs a publisher
 * Done. Shearonink (talk) 19:00, 14 August 2020 (UTC)


 * What makes ref 53 reliable?
 * It is true that www.cycling4fans.de was started in 2001 as a cycling fan site but has since developed into a cycling archives/history resource. Any possible submissions are vetted by the editorial staff. This particular column is about Willy Schmitter, a cyclist who died in 1905 and the cyclingfans article cites as its source the 1906 edition of the Sport-Album der Radwelt, 4th year. Information about early cyclists is very difficult to get at, the Sports-Album is often the only remaining source of information and so far as I can tell is probably only available in the stacks of research libraries in Germany. In my opinion it is reliable. Shearonink (talk) 07:22, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
 * PS - The site is used extensively throughout WIkipedia. Shearonink (talk) 20:32, 15 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Publisher for ref 58
 * Done. Boy THAT was hard to find...it's not printed on any copy I could find but I found a publisher cited elsewhere on the Internet Archive. Shearonink (talk) 19:08, 14 August 2020 (UTC)


 * The Sport-Album der Rad-Welt citations are inconsistent, for example:
 * Ref 59 "Sport-Album der Rad-Welt, Vol. 6/1907..."
 * Ref 63 "Sport-Album der Rad-Welt, vol. 7, 1908..."
 * Ref 69 "Sport-Album der Rad-Welt, Vol. 8/1909..."
 * I would recommend capitalizing to "Vol" and using the format of ref 63, like: "Sport-Album der Rad-Welt, Vol. 7, 1908..." for all of them.
 * Done They have all been brought into agreement with each other. Shearonink (talk) 07:32, 14 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Ref 70 and 72 missing publisher
 * Done Ref #70 & #72 - added publisher/s. Shearonink (talk) 16:21, 15 August 2020 (UTC)


 * What does "page 56+" mean in ref 79?
 * I don't know. That is a ref that was added by another editor who has access to the archives/stacks at a major library in Germany. I have an inquiry into them now - I'll let you know when I know. Shearonink (talk) 05:38, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Deleted the + symbol. That was supposed to be just "56" by itself. Shearonink (talk) 16:21, 15 August 2020 (UTC)


 * What does "f. Frankfort." mean in ref 12?
 * Das Stahlrad was a major German cycling magazine but I am not sure what "f. Frankfort" is supposed to mean. Am checking. Shearonink (talk) 05:38, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Using f. in a reference is a common German shorthand way of stating "and the following (pages)" but since I do not have Das Stahlrad in front of me (found out it means "The Steelbike") to see how many the following page/s are, that ref will be rendered without the f. Shearonink (talk) 16:21, 15 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Ref 89 should be pp. 66–67 (make sure its an em – dash)
 * Done - Shearonink (talk) 05:38, 15 August 2020 (UTC)


 * What is ref 93 from?
 * Illustrierter Radrenn-Sport was a weekly cycling magazine publishedfrom 1921 to 1935. I have filled it out with whatever information I could find, I do not have direct access to these volumes. Shearonink (talk) 05:38, 15 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Ref 97 "See Rennbahn Oerlikon – 100 Jahre Faszination Radsport by Peter Schnyder, Page 150" you need a publisher and ISBN or something. You already have another ref for this entry so I wonder if this one is even necessary. (if you do remove it I would do so after going through this batch of comments so when I refer to a reference it is the same one, if that makes sense)
 * Done. Fixed. Shearonink (talk) 16:21, 15 August 2020 (UTC)


 * What is Ref 99 ""Kruger". Illustrated Cycling. July 24, 1931." can I get an author or access date or link or anything?
 * Well, again, the problem is that this is a reference in a different language published before ISBNs were established. I added the ref myself in 2012, but I think the information was quoted in another reference complete with attribution. Illustrierter Radrenn-Sport (or "Illustrated Cycling") was a German cycling magazine published from 1921 until 1935 and is used as a reference in a handful or articles about historic cycling in the English Wikipedia and extensively so in the German Wikipedia see this and this. There's even an article about it in the German Wikipedia, see de:Illustrierter Radrenn-Sport. One thing to be aware of is that the magazine's title is rendered in two different forms, as Illustrierter Radrennsport and as Illustrierter Radrenn-Sport. Shearonink (talk) 16:37, 16 August 2020 (UTC)


 * can ref 103 get an ISBN OCLC or something?
 * The book doesn't have an ISBN since it was published in 1950 and apparently never had a second or third printing - ISBNs only came into use after 1970. I filled out the reference as much as I could - hopefully that will be enogh.


 * Why does ref 108 say "1936 edition" and ref 109 simply says "1937"?
 * Done. Fixed. Shearonink (talk) 16:21, 15 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Why does ref 112 say "Melbourne, Victoria. December 10, 1938. p. 4 Edition: Edition1." isn't "Melbourne, Victoria. December 10, 1938. p. 4 Edition: 1." enough?
 * Done It did look somewhat odd but that is one of the citation forms put forth at the source and that is how it is rendered elsewhere. I take the preciseness of the Edition to mean to mean that there could be more than one edition of a paper put out in a day - the morning edition (Edition 1) and the evening edition (Edition 2). I've adjusted it now Shearonink (talk) 04:13, 16 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Is the ISBN for ref 113 (Brisson, Jean-Pascal) correct? 979 is unusual, not even sure it's possible
 * Done Fixed. Shearonink (talk) 16:21, 15 August 2020 (UTC)


 * What makes ref 118 reliable?
 * Refs 94, 118, and 129 are all sourced from Mémoire du Cyclisme, a database of cycling news & history that has been around since 1997. It has an editorial staff and, though it does have fan forums, the information presented to the public in article-form is overseen and vetted by that editorial staff. It is cited by other references as a source - Cycling Ranking, Taylor & Francis books. The site itself is cited over 2000 times in different Wikipedia articles about cycling. Shearonink (talk) 16:21, 15 August 2020 (UTC)


 * ISBN for 127?
 * Done. Shearonink (talk) 20:32, 15 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Publisher for 129?
 * Done Also, see the above comment about this ref. Shearonink (talk) 16:21, 15 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Publisher/website/work for 140?
 * Done. Shearonink (talk) 16:21, 15 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Publisher for 142?
 * 142 is proving to be problematic, I'll probably have to delete it later. Shearonink (talk) 16:21, 15 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Got to ref 155, more later Aza24 (talk) 08:17, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks for looking over the sources up to 155. Only 145 to go...eek! Shearonink (talk) 04:13, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your diligent work and responses so far, I recognize this can be a tedious process, especially with this many references. Looking through the above everything seems to be addressed and I'm happy with the reliability explanations. The only suggestion I would make before going through the rest is that I've heard of a guideline for when the website and publisher are the same, or closely related you don't need both (e.g. having California Digital Newspaper Collection at University of California Riverside twice) usually I see this with people avoiding |website=New York Times |publisher=New York Times Company, but either way is fine, just thought I'd bring it to your attention. Going through the rest now, 145 more... "eek" indeed :) Aza24 (talk) 22:35, 16 August 2020 (UTC)


 * A "|language = italian" for ref 154 would be nice
 * Done. Shearonink (talk) 01:05, 17 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Date, publisher and "|language = french" for ref 159
 * Done. Shearonink (talk) 01:05, 17 August 2020 (UTC)


 * publisher for ref 160?
 * Done. Shearonink (talk) 01:05, 17 August 2020 (UTC)


 * link for ref 162 is broken (for me at leas)
 * I will delete #162 when the review is done. Unfortunately it looks like the site has gone dark and also something went wrong with the Wayback Machine's archiving. What a pity. Shearonink (talk) 01:05, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Done Ref#162 has been deleted. Shearonink (talk) 22:19, 17 August 2020 (UTC)


 * "|language=spanish" for ref 163?
 * Done Spanish actually. Shearonink (talk) 02:43, 17 August 2020 (UTC)


 * ref 171 needs Portuguese language marker, author and publishing date (those two look like they're at the bottom of the page)
 * Done. Shearonink (talk) 02:43, 17 August 2020 (UTC)


 * ref 172 needs date
 * Done. Shearonink (talk) 02:43, 17 August 2020 (UTC)


 * ref 173 needs author and ate
 * Done. The date was already in the ref. The author was "Agence France Presse, which is/was akin to Associated Press or United Press Syndicate, so I rendered the author as "Staff". Shearonink (talk) 03:23, 17 August 2020 (UTC)


 * looks like ref 99 has an error
 * Done. Fixed. Shearonink (talk) 02:48, 17 August 2020 (UTC)


 * date for ref 205
 * Done. Shearonink (talk) 03:23, 17 August 2020 (UTC)


 * language=italian for ref 206?
 * Done. Shearonink (talk) 03:23, 17 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Ref 214 should be Snowdon Sports and needs date
 * Done. Shearonink (talk) 03:23, 17 August 2020 (UTC)


 * 215 needs date (and maybe author – although this author name seems to be their initials so perhaps not)
 * Date is already there. I tried to get at who "JB" was, but that info is not searchable through velo-club.net's archives. I think I will leave it blank. sinceI cannot attach a name to the initials. Shearonink (talk) 15:25, 17 August 2020 (UTC)


 * ref 217 needs author
 * Done. Shearonink (talk) 15:25, 17 August 2020 (UTC)


 * ref 219 needs date, looks like in this case it's the same as the archive and retrieval one
 * Done. Shearonink (talk) 15:25, 17 August 2020 (UTC)


 * ref 229 missing author and date
 * Done Shearonink (talk) 17:10, 17 August 2020 (UTC)


 * ref 230 missing date, also looks like in this case it's the same as the archive and retrieval one
 * Done Shearonink (talk) 17:10, 17 August 2020 (UTC)


 * ref 231 missing date (quite a few cycling news ones are, refs 221, 223, 224)
 * 221Done
 * 223Done
 * 224Done
 * 231Done Shearonink (talk) 17:10, 17 August 2020 (UTC)


 * date and "language=spanish" for ref 227
 * Done. Shearonink (talk) 14:57, 17 August 2020 (UTC)


 * date for ref 241
 * Done The date was there but I did add "Staff" as author. Shearonink (talk) 14:57, 17 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Shoot! I meant to get through all of them in one swoop, got to ref 245 but I have to go... will be back in a little bit to finish up, you're so close! - Aza24 (talk) 23:13, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
 * ref 268 needs author and date
 * Done Shearonink (talk) 17:10, 17 August 2020 (UTC)


 * ref 277 wrong date?
 * Done. Shearonink (talk) 14:57, 17 August 2020 (UTC)


 * ref 291 missing author
 * Done. Actually, I had to completely overhaul that ref - the author was there but the cite form wasn't a WP-standard. Shearonink (talk) 14:57, 17 August 2020 (UTC)


 * ref 292 needs "language=spanish"
 * Done language =Italian + Staff author. Shearonink (talk) 04:40, 17 August 2020 (UTC)


 * ref 294 needs author
 * Done. Fixed Shearonink (talk) 04:40, 17 August 2020 (UTC)


 * I think that's it for me, to help with the process I'll go through more myself to try and link the remaining unlinked publishers. Aza24 (talk) 23:55, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
 * ... Done. Should be all good to go. Please at least do a spot-check of my work to make sure I didn't miss anything. Thank you for all your efforts on this review. Shearonink (talk) 17:10, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
 * good work! I spot checked some like you asked and everything looked fine. Thanks for your cooperation on this list with a lot of sources! (btw don't forget to delete 162) Pass for source review. Aza24 (talk) 21:36, 17 August 2020 (UTC)

Giants2008 ( Talk ) 22:17, 23 August 2020 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.