Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of sculptures of Ludwig van Beethoven/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by PresN via FACBot (talk) 00:28, 24 April 2021 (UTC).

List of sculptures of Ludwig van Beethoven

 * Nominator(s): Aza24 (talk) 02:25, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

It may seem like a niche list to work on, but it has a purpose, or at least had one. Beethoven's 250th anniversary was last year and I was trying to get this as the TFL (for 17 December) but only got as far as a DYK... Oh well. Anyways, Beethoven's central status in the history of Western classical music has made him the subject of a lot of monuments. And I mean a lot—so this is a dynamic list; regardless, I'm confident I have entries for the most important and well-known monuments. Another point of interest might be the 45 or so busts by Antoine Bourdelle; I opted to limit them in a separate list as to not overwhelm the main list with entries by them. The list should be fully sortable. Thanks in advanced to any who review. Aza24 (talk) 02:25, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

Reywas92Talk 03:35, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Dynamic list template should go before the list, not at the top of the page
 * I think a more appropriate title would be List of sculptures of Ludwig van Beethoven. Like the Beethoven House has eight sculptures of him, but they aren't all individually monuments. "Monument" is not necessarily a synonym for "three-dimensional artwork of a person".
 * The "Type" category isn't that clear: all of these are sculptures, including the busts and statues, so there shouldn't necessarily just be a subset of them called sculptures. E.g. it seems to me the one at Plaza Lavalle looks like it would be a relief, and at Alter Zoll is a statue. I guess some of them aren't as categorizable but this needs some work.
 * "arist" typo
 * " supposably" is not a word
 * Three links of types are actually links to the specific artwork. This is not expected and should perhaps be linked in the location instead.
 * I don't mind the splitting of the Bourdelle works (which are likewise generic artworks and not monuments per se), but seven out of "at least 45" is very incomplete. Although generally it may be hard to say for sure "this list is complete" and that's permissible, this seems quite inadequate for an FL. Unless it's it's redefined to be specially "monuments" and not just any old sculptures, which would remove several in the main list too, this section should be more comprehensive.
 * I take pause at the Unexecuted monuments. For example the Friedrich von Amerling and Drake ones were just an alternate proposal to the one by Hähnel that was chosen. Surely many of the other monuments went through multiple design proposals too, so this also suggests a greater degree of incompleteness. They should be included at Beethoven Monument but I'm not so sure about here.
 * many thanks for your comments. I've addressed your minor ones (though I will note that supposably is a word—but certainly not the right one, in this case).
 * I will ponder over the unexecuted monuments suggestion, though most of these are important enough (e.g. they have some history behind them, perhaps I add some notes to each of them?) that I would advocate their inclusion.
 * Yes notes are nice
 * For the Bourdelle works I actually forgot that I only had 7 (they're hard to find, as there's not list of them anywhere I could find) so I will surely add plenty more when I have time.
 * As for the other two points (type & article name) you seem to be stumbling onto two problems I've pondered over myself, but struggled to find a satisfactory conclusion, so maybe we can help each other here:
 * For type, my goal here is primarily to be able to sort busts, reliefs and (probably) statues; as you say some are ambiguous, so I've opted for the equally ambiguous "sculpture", any advice here would be appreciated, but I'm really not sure if there is going to be a perfect way to go about this.
 * Maybe whatever can't fit into the other categories would be "other sculpture"?
 * The name used to be List of statuary of Ludwig von Beethoven but I moved it. I would disagree with your interpretation of the word "monument"—OED says it is a "A statue, building, or other structure erected to commemorate a famous or notable person or event." which seems to cover the content... I'm not opposed to changing it to "sculptures" should that be a more direct title, but I would aim for keeping the reliefs. Busts and Statues are surely sculptures; our relief article says it's a "sculptural technique" so I am left unsure. - Aza24 (talk) 04:56, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Right, statues with pedestals and plaques or other public commemoration would be a monument, but the regular sculptures and depictions don't quite fit that, like not every sculpture in a museum is a monument. Yes, reliefs are definitely sculptures to be included.
 * An additional comment would be that unknown artists don't need gray backgrounds. Reywas92Talk 19:28, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
 * , sorry for my untimely update. I believe I've addressed all of your comments now; I pondered over adding notes, but decided such information would be better for the artist's articles, and it looks odd to have notes for the unexecuted, but not the executed. They're all included in the lead anyways. Aza24 (talk) 00:57, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I concur with the reviewer below that the flags aren't really necessary, otherwise support Reywas92Talk 05:27, 12 April 2021 (UTC)


 * Happy to Support. ~ HAL  333  21:46, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

Comments by Ham II

 * I like the change of title to "List of sculptures of Ludwig van Beethoven", which better reflects the scope.
 * Presumably Karlsbad would be a more appropriate name for Karlovy Vary in 1929?
 * Changed
 * "A large number of busts reside in the Beethoven House" – MOS:ART advises against "currently resides in", and I think this is a bit too close to that. Possibly change it to something like "There is a collection of busts of the composer in the Beethoven House"?
 * Good catch, adjusted this
 * There are more public sculptures, including architectural sculpture, here – I count twelve sculptures there which aren't in this list. de:Liste der Beethoven-Denkmäler has works in the Pasqualati House, the Walhalla, Cuxhaven, Hradec nad Moravicí and Teplice which aren't here. The Royal Philharmonic Society in London has this bust by Johann Nepomuk Schaller, and its many contemporary copies are covered here. Also in London, the Royal Academy of Music has this marble bust by Hähnel (as well as one of the plaster copies of the Schaller). Have you looked for sources for everything in c:Category:Sculptures of Ludwig van Beethoven and its subcategories?
 * Thanks for these, I'll add them and give you an update when I do, I had already gone through the German list and added all I could find sources for. Aza24 (talk) 02:02, 24 March 2021 (UTC)
 * After a bit of digging I've found a source for the Walhalla bust: search for "Kat. Nr. 13" in this doctoral dissertation. The attribution seems to be Arnold Hermann Lossow after Anton Dietrich. Here are some more: La Scala, Milan; GAM, Turin – which is a cast of this sculpture in Milan; a Bourdelle in Bonn; Beijing; a full-length photo of Beethoven in the Wind in the Musée Bourdelle. Ham II (talk) 20:39, 24 March 2021 (UTC)
 * There should be more specific locations for Fernkorn's bust and Klinger's sculptures in Vienna and Leipzig.
 * Done
 * The majority of authority control files on Wikidata refer to Jacques de Braekeleer with a lowercase "d" and, where the sorting of his name is indicated, sort it as "Braekelaer, Jacques de": Union List of Artist Names, Allgemeines Künstlerlexikon Online, Benezit Dictionary of Artists, Christie's. I should note that both the Dutch-language files (RKD and Inventaris), like the Dutch Wikipedia article you've linked to, do have "Jacques D e Braekeeler", but "Jacques d e Braekeleer", sorted under "B", seems to be the majority English-language usage.
 * Agreed and fixed
 * There's an online source for another Bourdelle here. This seems to be the book that covers all Bourdelle's works on the theme of Beethoven. This seems to be the current catalogue raisonné for the artist, and this seems to be the most recent one in English – in case either of these books is easier to get hold of than the first. I appreciate that these would be very difficult to check at the moment. Is every relevant sculpture currently at List of works by Antoine Bourdelle covered here?
 * I looked around for a catalogue raisonné as well, but found them not easily available. I've added the one you found and yes I had gone through the works list. Aza24 (talk) 02:02, 24 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Is there anything to be said (in the lede, not the list itself) about mass-produced busts of Beethoven? They do seem to be "iconic", and they certainly come up a lot in pop culture: 1, 2, 3. Ham II (talk) 10:21, 20 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Sorry for the delay, I looked in a book about Beethoven sculpture and couldn't find anything about the pop culture appearances. I think I've addressed your other comments though, and added the appropriate works. Aza24 (talk) 07:03, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
 * If reliable sources don't cover this, that's fair enough. I've never looked into Beethoven's reception history before (art history is my field), but I am struck by the popularity of plaster busts of the composer. I still count nine works on vanderkrogt.net that are missing here: at the Alte Oper, Frankfurt; the Grand Théâtre de Genève; the Conservatoire de Musique de Genève; Graz; the Staatsoper Hannover; the Frieze of Parnassus on the Albert Memorial, London; Nuremberg; the Latvian National Museum of Art; and Uffenheim. I've added the Walhalla bust. Ham II (talk) 06:42, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Just for the record, I moved this page to correspond with how the main page got renamed after being nominated for FL. Putting a placeholder comment here for now since I intend to assess the images among other things. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 19:05, 22 March 2021 (UTC)

Now getting into the content:

I vastly underestimated how many images would be featured here (61 uploads and 9 external links, giving a grand total of 70). It's by far the most I've ever seen used in one Wikipedia article! While there's some work to do here, I believe you can get it up to par. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 01:22, 23 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Using File:Beethoven bust statue by Hagen.jpg twice feels repetitive. On another note, it's free of copyright.
 * It's mainly because it's a featured image on the English WP
 * I noticed this, but still only recommend using pictures once within a page SNUGGUMS (talk</b> / <b style="color:#009900">edits</b>) 15:01, 24 March 2021 (UTC)
 * I have no qualms with File:Jacques De Braekeleer, De componist Ludwig von Beethoven- Le compositeur Ludwig von Beethoven, KBS-FRB.jpg, File:Loc-beethoven-highsmith.jpg, File:Max Klinger, Beethoven, Museum of Fine Arts, Boston.jpg, File:Model for a Beethoven Monument by Gustav Blaeser.jpg, File:Draft for a Beethoven monument by Friedrich von Amerling.jpg, File:Draft for a Beethoven monument by Friedrich Drake.jpg, File:Draft for a Beethoven monument by Emil Eugen Sachse.jpg, or File:Fidus - Entwurf für einen Beethoven-Tempel, 1903.jpg.
 * When there isn't any evidence to the contrary, I see no good reason to doubt that File:Beethoven by Franz Klein 1812 Wien SAM.jpg, File:Beethoven monument bonn muensterplatz 2008.jpg, File:Medallons façana del Liceu - 03 Ludwig van Beethoven.JPG, File:Beethovenruhe.jpg, File:Beethoven monument, Vienna (1).jpg, File:Central Park NYC - Beethoven statue by Henry Baerer - IMG 5719.JPG, File:Bonnbeethovenhaus1.jpg, File:Brooklyn Prospect Park Beethoven 02.JPG, File:Statue of Beethoven (courtyard of San Pietro a Maiella, Naples).jpg, File:Z(946)BeethovensteinHelental20111113.jpg, File:Beethcian.jpg, File:Beethfix.jpg, File:Leipzig, Museum der bildenden Künste, Max Klinger, Beethovenskulptur.JPG, File:Berlin, Tiergarten, Grosser Tiergarten, Beethoven-Haydn-Mozart-Denkmal, Siemering, 1904.jpg, File:Aronsons Beethoven-Büste.jpg, File:Klinger Beethoven2.jpg, File:Wienbeethovenp2.jpg, File:Beethoven by Henry Baerer - Golden Gate Park, San Francisco, CA - DSC05243.JPG, File:BEETHOVEN Parque Independencia1.jpg, File:Beethhüsgen.jpg, File:Monumento a Beethoven en la Alameda Central, Ciudad de México.jpg, File:GuentherZ 2010-07-10 0101 Wien03 Ungargasse5 Gedenktafel Ludwig van Beethoven.jpg, File:Prague - Ludwig van Beethoven.jpg, File:Bust of Beethoven, Sauerhof 02.jpg, File:Beethoven-szobor, Martonvásár.JPG, File:Karlovy Vary socha Beethovena listopad 2018 (2).jpg, File:János Horvay - Beethoven - 1932 (1).jpg, File:Statue of Beethoven in Pershing Square in Downtown Los Angeles (DTLA) 17.jpg, File:Rostock Beethoven.jpg, File:2013-09-02 Beethoven-Denkmal nördlich des Restaurants Rheinaue, Ludwig-Erhard-Allee 20, Bonn-Hochkreuz IMG 0878.jpg, File:Memorial a Beethoven.JPG, File:Beethovenmerz.jpg, File:Beethoven-Denkmal, Frankfurt.jpg, File:BEETBG.jpg, File:Beethoven monument 02 by Matija Vuković, Baden.jpg, File:Beethoven portré a XII kerületi Beethoven utca 2.JPG, File:Hlohovec Ludwig Van Beethoven.JPG, File:Ludwig van Beethoven posąg.jpg, File:Estatua de Beethoven, Madrid.JPG, File:BEETHovenLAS.jpg, File:BEETHON.jpg, File:140712 Michinoeki Daiku no sato Naruto Tokushima pref Beethoven.jpg, File:Beethovenhaus-innenhof-03.jpg, File:Beethoven monument, Vienna 06, by Markus Lüpertz.jpg, File:180731 Martonvásár (15) Beethoven és a halhatatlan kedves Nagy János.jpg, File:Musée Ingres-Bourdelle - Beethoven aux grands cheveux 1891 - Platre - Antoine Bourdelle.jpg, File:Musée Ingres-Bourdelle - Buste de Beethoven, après 1902 - Platre - Antoine Bourdelle MI 97.5.1.jpg, File:Antoine Bourdelle-Beethoven (1).jpg, File:MuMA - Bourdelle - Beethoven.JPG, File:2009-09-20-bonn-beethovenhalle-innenansicht-grosses-foyer-beethovenbüste-bourdelle-01.jpg, and File:Musée Ingres-Bourdelle - Beethoven - tête aux raisins (Chapiteau), 1924-25 - Bronze - Antoine Bourdelle MI 85.1.1.jpg are in fact the uploaders' own work
 * Apologies, I'm a bit confused. Are you saying that these images are fine, or that I need to add different licensing or something? Aza24 (talk) 04:27, 24 March 2021 (UTC)
 * I meant that they're good to go :) <b style="color:#009900">SNUGGUMS</b> (<b style="color:#009900">talk</b> / <b style="color:#009900">edits</b>) 15:01, 24 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Are there no uploads available for these pieces: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9?
 * I'll look into these and get back to you Aza24 (talk) 04:27, 24 March 2021 (UTC)
 * I looked through them all and I don't think any are available. Since they're 3d objects, pictures of them have to be out of copyright, not just the object, so almost all the ones online aren't usable. Some had licenses on the websites, but they don't seem to be ones that are compatible with commons. Aza24 (talk) 03:17, 25 March 2021 (UTC)
 * It isn't ideal how File:Ludwig van Beethoven Monument, Lincoln Park, Chicago, early 20th century (NBY 948).jpg blends somewhat into the background. You should opt for something with better lighting.
 * Unfortunately, there probably isn't a way around this—the bust hasn't been seen since 1970. I'm assuming these would be impermissible to upload? Aza24 (talk) 04:27, 24 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Looks copyrighted from what I can tell. Don't risk trying to post any of those on commons. Perhaps you could instead use one of them as an external link (similar to the 9 others used) in place of the one with subpar lighting, or adjust the brightness of the currently used upload. <b style="color:#009900">SNUGGUMS</b> (<b style="color:#009900">talk</b> / <b style="color:#009900">edits</b>) 15:01, 24 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Indeed, I've left a request at Graphics Lab/Photography workshop Aza24 (talk) 03:17, 25 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Update, the image has been updated; thoughts on the changes? Aza24 (talk) 10:03, 25 March 2021 (UTC)
 * You appear to be missing something for Ernst Barlach under "Unexecuted sculptures"
 * Sorted Aza24 (talk) 04:27, 24 March 2021 (UTC)
 * File:Draft for a Beethoven monument by Ernst Barlach.jpg has no issues at all <b style="color:#009900">SNUGGUMS</b> (<b style="color:#009900">talk</b> / <b style="color:#009900">edits</b>) 15:01, 24 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Four digits are preferred for years over two as more complete and professional looking
 * Done Aza24 (talk) 04:27, 24 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Are any of the red links likely to warrant their own pages anytime soon? If not, then unlink them.
 * Fair point, have unlinked red ones, though I've kept the ill links (which create a redlink through the template) Aza24 (talk) 04:27, 24 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Meaning the ones that have articles in other languages? Fine by me. <b style="color:#009900">SNUGGUMS</b> (<b style="color:#009900">talk</b> / <b style="color:#009900">edits</b>) 15:01, 24 March 2021 (UTC)
 * No need for the "internet.beethoven.de" bits within citations; they're redundant when you already have Beethoven House listed
 * Similarly, just use Classic FM without the "classicfm.com", CARLI Digital Collections Home without "collections.carli.illinois.edu", Scala Archives without "scalarchives.com", etc.
 * For these two, if its OK with you I'd rather keep them, for consistency's sake with the situation as a whole (i.e. having "website" and "publisher" for all non-news refs)
 * Perhaps I should've been more explicit: I was saying all situations of "(insert publication)" and "(insert publication.com)" should just name the publication title in a non-URL format. <b style="color:#009900">SNUGGUMS</b> (<b style="color:#009900">talk</b> / <b style="color:#009900">edits</b>) 15:01, 24 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Done now, I think Aza24 (talk) 03:17, 25 March 2021 (UTC)
 * We're closer now. I'd also remove the instances of "collections.carli.illinois.edu", "necmusic.edu", "statues.vanderkrogt.net", and "ohara.or.jp" when already respectively covered by the use of CARLI Digital Collections Home, New England Conservatory of Music, "Statues – Hither & Thither", and Ohara Museum of Art. There's also still a few "beethoven.de" bits that aren't needed since Beethoven House covers them. <b style="color:#009900">SNUGGUMS</b> (<b style="color:#009900">talk</b> / <b style="color:#009900">edits</b>) 03:30, 25 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Indeed, I've removed these. Aza24 (talk) 10:03, 25 March 2021 (UTC)
 * "Grove Music Online" → The New Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians
 * They're different things, the The New Grove is a published series of books, I was using the online version
 * In that case, never mind <b style="color:#009900">SNUGGUMS</b> (<b style="color:#009900">talk</b> / <b style="color:#009900">edits</b>) 15:01, 24 March 2021 (UTC)
 * The most I can recall of the top of my head is List of drawings by Vincent van Gogh... be weary! Aza24 (talk) 04:27, 24 March 2021 (UTC)
 * This is a walk in the park compared to that other list (over 500 images) O_O! Anyway, I've responded to other points above. <b style="color:#009900">SNUGGUMS</b> (<b style="color:#009900">talk</b> / <b style="color:#009900">edits</b>) 15:01, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

Following the image improvement and ref adjustments, I give my support for the nomination and media review passes. While I would also prefer not to use an image multiple times here, that's not enough to keep me from saying it's ready to become FL. <b style="color:#009900">SNUGGUMS</b> (<b style="color:#009900">talk</b> / <b style="color:#009900">edits</b>) 12:46, 25 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Many thanks! Aza24 (talk) 01:35, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

Comments from Gerda
Impressive list! Only very minor things:
 * In the introduction, we have two Vienna in a row.
 * Sorted
 * I don't care about the little flags, especially since at Beethoven's (and some artists') time, these flags didn't yet exist.
 * My rationale is that the location column might be confusing otherwise when sorted. Usually when columns are sorted, one expects to see a clear group of items, but since these are sorted by country (and the specific location or city is put first) I was concerned that this might not be obvious enough without the flags. Maybe this makes sense? Otherwise, if you still disagree, I'm open to removing.
 * Well, we are used to sorting by year having a date fist, and by surname, having a given name first. You could also explain the sort. For me, the little flags are both sometimes wrong in history, and always a little coloured distraction from the artwork, but that may be just me.
 * How about "Liszt and Brahms"?
 * Done
 * I wonder if we could have a link from the introduction to the monument in the table, instead to other articles, which could be reserved to the table entries. Just an idea. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:21, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
 * It's tempting... but I'd rather not complicate the table anymore, if that's okay...?
 * I'll tempt you further by doing it for one. It won't change the table appearance, so be only additional bits in edit mode.
 * I did it for the first. If that doesn't tempt you enough consider how great it will to link to a position in the table from elsewhere, especially for sculptures without an article, for which you can make easy redirects, such as List of sculptures of Ludwig van Beethoven. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:35, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
 * ... or easier Beethoven sculptures --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:39, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I think I'll adapt it, great idea! I need to get of WP now but will do so in tomorrow and let you know. Aza24 (talk) 07:42, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I've responded above, many thanks for your (as usual) helpful comments. Aza24 (talk) 07:10, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank you! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:24, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Support excellent list, as it is, and sure can get even better ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:00, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

I made one little fix which it was easier to just do than to point out here, and am more than happy to support -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:53, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment

Source review passed; promoted. -- Pres N  22:41, 23 April 2021 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.