Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/Michael Jackson videography/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by Matthewedwards 01:50, 24 August 2009.

Michael Jackson videography

 * Nominator(s):  Pyrrhus  16 18:50, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured list because I believe it now meets the FL criteria, having had a helpful peer review from User:Finetooth.  Pyrrhus  16 18:50, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Support, all issues resolved. Dabomb87 (talk) 15:46, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Sources look good. Dabomb87 (talk) 15:46, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Ref 64, there's a double period after the author's name.
 * Spell out all abbreviations in the publishers. Dabomb87 (talk) 22:07, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Done. Thank you for your comments. :)  Pyrrhus  16 17:30, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Note FLC is currently short of reviewers; please consider reviewing one or more on the nomination list if you have not already (this message is being posted to all running FLCs). Dabomb87 (talk) 23:23, 14 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Comments from Truco
 * General
 * Dabs, external links, and alt text all check out fine.
 * Lead
 * In the early 1980s, Jackson became a dominant figure in popular culture and the first African-American entertainer to amass a strong crossover following on Music Television (MTV). -- 1)Is the dash really needed in African American? I don't think so. 2)I don't quite understand that to amass a strong crossover following on Music Television (MTV) [mainly the following on MTV part]
 * 1) Removed the dash. 2) I've reworded to have a strong crossover fanbase on Music Television (MTV). Hopefully that makes it more clear.  Pyrrhus  16 13:37, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Music videos
 * When Walter Yetnikoff, the president of Jackson's record label, CBS, approached MTV chiefs to play the "Billie Jean" video in the early 1980s, they initially refused, feeling that black music wasn't "rock" enough. -- The CBS part stands out, what do you mean by it?
 * I've removed the comma preceeding CBS and placed the company in brackets, to make it clear that CBS were his record label.  Pyrrhus  16 13:37, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Much clearer now, however, the CBS link goes to the Columbia Broadcasting System. I don't believe that's the record label, or is it?-- T ru  c o   503 16:32, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for spotting that. I've changed it to CBS Records and pipe linked it to Columbia Records (what the company is now known as). They are a different label to the other CBS Records, founded in 2006.  Pyrrhus  16 16:51, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Since you link the other ones, link to Billie Jean
 * Done.  Pyrrhus  16 13:37, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
 * directed by Spike Lee.[13] Rupert Wainwright directed the "HIStory Teaser", a promotional trailer for Jackson's HIStory album. The teaser, filmed in Hungary, showed Jackson marching with soldiers dressed in red. -- Unlink Hungary, per WP:OVERLINK
 * Done.  Pyrrhus  16 13:37, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
 * In 1996, the $7 million "Scream" won a Grammy for Best Music Video, Short Form, and shortly afterward Guinness World Records listed it as the most expensive music video ever made. -- Link to United States dollar
 * Done.  Pyrrhus  16 13:37, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Everything else checks out fine, excellent work.-- T ru  c o   503 01:52, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Thank you. :)  Pyrrhus  16 13:37, 15 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Support -- Previous issues resolved/clarified; list now meets WP:WIAFL, and I'm pretty sure TRM's comments will be addressed below.-- T ru  c o   503 18:43, 15 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Oppose
 * ""Beat It", "Billie Jean" and Thriller" - why are the first two non-italics and in quotes and the last in italics without quotes?
 * The format was copied from the main Michael Jackson article. As the wikilinks for "Billie Jean" and "Beat It" were to the song articles, they are in quotes. Thriller was italicised because it links to the article on the film as opposed to the song. I've changed it to quotation marks for consistency.  Pyrrhus  16 19:16, 15 August 2009 (UTC)


 * "credited for transforming the music video into an art form and a promotional tool" by whom? Where's the reference for this please?
 * Now cited.  Pyrrhus  16 19:16, 15 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Same comment for the next couple of claims - "new channel to fame", "made an enduring staple", "drew controversy"..
 * Now cited, apart from the last one. I changed it to the weaker word criticism. The criticism is referenced throughout the music video section.  Pyrrhus  16 19:16, 15 August 2009 (UTC)


 * "awarded Guinness World Records." why?
 * Done.  Pyrrhus  16 19:16, 15 August 2009 (UTC)


 * "of the entertainer's other " - "of Jackson's other" is fine.
 * Done.  Pyrrhus  16 19:16, 15 August 2009 (UTC)


 * "of the actor's feature" ditto.
 * Done.  Pyrrhus  16 19:16, 15 August 2009 (UTC)


 * suggestive lyrics. [5] - remove space before cite.
 * Done.  Pyrrhus  16 19:16, 15 August 2009 (UTC)


 * black artists. [6][7] - ditto.
 * Done.  Pyrrhus  16 19:16, 15 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Why have a section 1.1 when there's no 1.2?
 * Removed heading.  Pyrrhus  16 19:16, 15 August 2009 (UTC)


 * "was considered too violent, and was later replaced with a music video set in Brazil" a little odd for me. It implies that a video set in Brazil wouldn't be too violent.
 * Added different before music video.  Pyrrhus  16 19:16, 15 August 2009 (UTC)


 * "recognised" this is BritEng spelling, while the rest of the article appears to be USEng.
 * Done.  Pyrrhus  16 19:16, 15 August 2009 (UTC)


 * "the most successful music video" can you quantify what you mean by "successful" here?
 * I don't really know what the Guinness World Records definition of "success" is. I wouldn't really like to speculate on it.  Pyrrhus  16 19:16, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Okay, so provide a directly referenced quotation please, as this will clearly remain ambiguous. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:35, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
 * The phrase is now inside quotation marks.  Pyrrhus  16 12:47, 16 August 2009 (UTC)


 * " the innovative music video " - who said it was innovative? Is that just your opinion?
 * Removed innovative.  Pyrrhus  16 19:16, 15 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Certainly not sure I see the point of a single entry table for the Television appearances section.
 * Removed.  Pyrrhus  16 19:16, 15 August 2009 (UTC)


 * "Jackson has released..." implies he is still alive?
 * Removed has.  Pyrrhus  16 19:16, 15 August 2009 (UTC)


 * DVDs section - the table is quite messy for me. Do you really need to repeat the IFPI, ARIA etc when each one could be covered by a suitable column heading?
 * Removed abbreviations from the table as they are not really needed.  Pyrrhus  16 19:16, 15 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Ref 10 - 2 not 02...
 * Done.  Pyrrhus  16 19:16, 15 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Shouldn't the ten-digit ISBN fields be consistent with hyphenation?
 * They are now all consistent.  Pyrrhus  16 19:16, 15 August 2009 (UTC)


 * The Rambling Man (talk) 18:09, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your comments.  Pyrrhus  16 19:16, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Support Happy to say this list is looking very good. All of my concerns have been addressed, so I'm happy to support. Drewcifer (talk) 16:44, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

 Weak Oppose  Certainly a decent list, but I have a few problems with it so far:
 * The DVD table is a mess. Specifically, the way it is formatted is way too wide, so it gets squeezed uncomfortably.  And the reason this happens is because each county is given its own column, much like chart positions in discographies.  Instead, I would suggest taking a cue from the same discographies, and modeling the certifications after the way it's done in discographies (see Nine Inch Nails discography for an example of what I mean.)  You'd save some horizontal space since you can ignore countries where the DVD hasn't charted, and instead list things vertically.  I would also recommend following a similar column header format as discographies, which would eliminate the need for sales figures (which are wrong anyways, since certifications are based on units shipped, not sold, but that point is moot if you remove them).
 * Thanks. I've changed the format of the table.  Pyrrhus  16 14:16, 16 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Secondly, some of the refs provided are problematic. Try clicking on any of the CRIA ones to see what I mean.  Also, many of them are in foreign languages, so use the "language" parameter to the cite web templates.
 * Added the language parameter to all foreign sources.  Pyrrhus  16 14:16, 16 August 2009 (UTC)


 * AllMusic Guide is now Allmusic, published by Macrovision.
 * Changed to "Allmusic".  Pyrrhus  16 14:16, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

Now for some more meta-questions:
 * Thank you for your comments and suggestions. :)  Pyrrhus  16 14:16, 16 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Some of the references still lead to a search page (like the CRIA ref). Provide a description of how to find the information you're referencing, such as "User must search for "Michael Jackson" or some other instructions they need to know.
 * Added description to refs.  Pyrrhus  16 13:51, 17 August 2009 (UTC)


 * The long list of certifying bodies in the prose of the DVD section is completely unnecessary, especially if they're wikilinked in the table like I suggested above.
 * Removed.  Pyrrhus  16 14:16, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Looks like they've been put back. Drewcifer (talk) 04:58, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Removed again.  Pyrrhus  16 14:38, 17 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Use the multiplication sign (×) not an x for multi-platinum certifications.
 * Done.  Pyrrhus  16 13:51, 17 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Why the link to the Dome Project? It's just a redirect to Jackson's last tour, not sure how that applies. Drewcifer (talk) 04:58, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Removed. It had previously been an article on an unreleased Jackson music video.  Pyrrhus  16 13:51, 17 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Why all the prose? This is a list, therefore, any prose should be in relation to the list as a whole.  Or in other words, prose should only be provided if an explanation is necessary to fit a particular list item into the context of the other items.  So, then, why so many unnecessary details?  Why do we care that Michael watched videos of gazelles to prepare for the role of the Scarecrow?  This is information clearly more suited to the article for The Wiz.  And I would argue that at least half of the prose here fits under the same category.
 * I've trimmed some of the prose. Would you like more taken off?  Pyrrhus  16 14:16, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

Drewcifer (talk) 09:54, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure exactly what you've taken out, but I'd still suggest taking a ton out. Most of the Stark Raving Dad section could be trimmed down considerably, as most of that is better suited in the episode's article.  Also, for instance, the sentence "Jackson's first film role was as the Scarecrow in the The Wiz".  The table already tells us that, so why bother with repeating it in a sentence?  Most of the prose in the article falls under one of these two categories: stuff that we already know from the tables, or stuff that is too specific and belongs in the film's article, not here.
 * Trimmed some more.  Pyrrhus  16 13:51, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I think I'm suggesting much more than a trim, I'm talking about removing whole sections of prose, since they're redundant. Take a look at most FLs, and very few of them have any prose at all except for the lead.  Some more examples: All the prose in the DVD section.  It tells us a few things :"Jackson released several DVDs" well we know that from the table, "some were originally released on VHS" also featured in the table, "All of Jackson's DVD releases have been certified by trading bodies such as the Recording Industry Association of America (RIAA) and the International Federation of the Phonographic Industry (IFPI)."  also in the table.  So why have any prose at all?  I would say the same for the filmography section.  It tells us almost nothing that isn't already part of the table.  And perhaps, what little there is that the prose does cover could be incorporated into the table.  You could add a director column.  Add "(cameo)" to the last two roles.  And voila, no need for any prose at all.  Mind you, I haven't even looked at the Music videos section, but I'm assuming the same things could be said about that.
 * Removed prose from both sections. Should I remove the prose from the music video section?  Pyrrhus  16 15:51, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Removed prose from music video section.  Pyrrhus  16 16:31, 18 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I think the titling the last section "DVDs" is a bit of a misnomer, especially since many of them were originally released on VHS. I'd suggest retitling it.
 * Renamed to home video releases.  Pyrrhus  16 15:51, 18 August 2009 (UTC)


 * For "Dangerous - The Short Films" and "Video Greatest Hits - HIStory", you should use an en-dash (–) not a hyphen (-). Granted, the titles of the articles being linked to use hyphens, but they shouldn't either.  So, while you're at it, I'd recommend moving both to Dangerous – The Short Films and Video Greatest Hits – HIStory. Drewcifer (talk) 19:40, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Done.  Pyrrhus  16 15:51, 18 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Why "Videography"? It seems you've interpreted "Filmography" as "stuff only shot on film lasting x amount of minutes", but that doesn't necessarily have to be the case.  Woody Allen filmography and includes television work, Spike Lee filmography includes music videos, Christopher Walken filmography includes video games.  In fact, I'd argue that videography is less-inclusive than filmography.
 * It was initially called Michael Jackson filmography, but as there were mainly music videos listed, it was suggested in the last FLC to change it to its current title.  Pyrrhus  16 14:16, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Not sure if I agree with that, but if someone else suggested it, I'll let it slide. But if anyone else has an opinion on this, I'd definitely want to hear it.

I'm glad to say this list is look very very good. I only have a few more comments:
 * The filmography ref column should be centered.
 * Done. Dabomb87 (talk) 22:04, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
 * The lead should mention the Simpsons episode.
 * Done.  Pyrrhus  16 09:03, 19 August 2009 (UTC)


 * The "DVD details" column is porrly named, since they came out in various formats. I'd recommend "Video details".
 * Done. Dabomb87 (talk) 22:04, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Along the same lines, the Formats of all of the video releases should include DVD (assuming it was released as such).
 * Done.  Pyrrhus  16 09:03, 19 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Some external links would be helpful. Such as a link to his website, his IMDB page, etc.Drewcifer (talk) 21:53, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Done; added his official website, IMDB and Allmovie. Dabomb87 (talk) 22:04, 18 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Question shouldn't #Music videos have a chart position peak column also? Nergaal (talk) 17:12, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
 * The music videos have never been released in the way that a single or an album has. I don't believe there is a chart for music videos.  Pyrrhus  16 17:18, 19 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Support per completed reviews.  iMatthew  talk   at 20:43, 22 August 2009 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.