Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/Supernatural (season 1)/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was not promoted by Dabomb87 22:53, 1 October 2009.

Supernatural (season 1)
I would like to withdraw my nomination for this, as it now qualifies as an article rather than a list. Ophois (talk) 16:51, 30 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Nominator(s): Ophois (talk) 23:17, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured list because I feel it now meets the criteria for a featured list. Ophois (talk) 23:17, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Comment Why is there no production section? Recently promoted FLs, such as Seinfeld (season 2), and Desperate Housewives (season 1), have them. Dabomb87 (talk) 00:22, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
 * It's listed as "Crew", as I based the article on the season articles of Lost, such as Lost (season 2). Ophois (talk) 01:10, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
 * But is there no info about the filming, how the settings were determined, the scriptwriting etc? Dabomb87 (talk) 01:16, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Do any lists? Looking through them such as for Veronica Mars, Lost, The Office, 30 Rock, that really isn't included in any of them, save for a couple lines here and there. Ophois (talk) 01:27, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I mean, if it's required, then I'll try and find some stuff on it, but it doesn't seem to be judging by other articles. That said, I will look into it. I should have some stuff that can be added. Ophois (talk) 01:30, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Most of those lists were promoted a while ago and don't necessarily meet current FL standards. Those which I mentioned originally are better examples. Dabomb87 (talk) 01:35, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Highlander: The Series (season 2) is also a good example. Dabomb87 (talk) 01:35, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Okay, I added in more production details.Ophois (talk) 02:09, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I'll take a more detailed look at the article when I have time (which may not be anytime soon). Dabomb87 (talk) 02:21, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Dabomb, as I pointed out in my comment below, what you are asking for is something that would turn this list into an article. The reason most season pages are "lists" and not "articles" is because 90% of their information is lists of information in prose form. The "Production" is typically (1) repetition from the main page (2) a list of the crew members who worked on the season (3) a list of the filming locations (maybe). If you start getting into how the season was truly produced (writing, filming, SFX if applicable) then you're getting into "article" territory because you're turning the page into primarily true prose information.   BIGNOLE     (Contact me)  19:16, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

General comment
 * 1) Each episode's summary needs a 3X expansion. A summary should be at least a four lines paragraph. Please increase the summaries of each episode.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 16:29, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Ok, I'll try to expand them. However, a lot of them are self-enclosed episodes, so it will be hard to expand them beyond a couple lines.Ophois (talk) 18:36, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
 * The episode summaries have now all been expanded. Ophois (talk) 01:06, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Content
 * 1) "American Viewers" Just "Viewers"--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 05:51, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Done. Ophois (talk) 14:34, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
 * 1) "Directed by" Director--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 05:51, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Done. Ophois (talk) 14:34, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
 * 1) "Written by" Writer(s)--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 05:51, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Done. Ophois (talk) 14:34, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
 * 1) "overall series, with "Episode #" referring to ".....while.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 05:51, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Done. Ophois (talk) 14:34, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
 * 1) The lead has to have two to three paragraphs, Lead, expand the lead.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 05:51, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
 * DoneOphois (talk) 15:26, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
 * 1) Try to expand each paragraph in the Cast section.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 05:51, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Done. Ophois (talk) 14:34, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
 * References
 * 1) You need to reference the data in the tables of the DVD release.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 05:51, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Done. Ophois (talk) 14:34, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
 * 1) Reference the last paragraph in the production section and the last sentence in the first paragraph.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 05:51, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
 * How would I reference that? Cite the episode? Ophois (talk) 12:44, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
 * 1) Reference the Cast section--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 05:51, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Done. Ophois (talk) 14:34, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
 * 1) Split Australia from United States like Desperate_Housewives_(season_1)--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 05:51, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Do you mean Canada? Ophois (talk) 12:13, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Assuming that is what you meant, done. Ophois (talk) 14:34, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
 * 1) Reference the Lead.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 05:51, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
 * DoneOphois (talk) 15:26, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Other comments
 * 1) Some episode summaries include production information, this should be moved to the production section since its not the summary.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 23:34, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Done. Ophois (talk) 23:59, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
 * IMO, the Reception section shouldn't have subsections because of its shortness.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 10:33, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Done. Ophois (talk) 12:39, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * 1) Please expand the lead with one more paragraph because there's more than 10,000 characters of prose, not including the list.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 10:33, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Done. Ophois (talk) 12:39, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * 1) There are some cite errors.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 12:50, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Done. Ophois (talk) 13:04, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * 1) You used "Knight, Nicholas, (Season 1 Companion)" as a reference please add General to the References section and add details about this book, its ISBN, publisher, publication date and so on.
 * Done. Ophois (talk) 13:26, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * 1) Fix the title of the "Supernatural - Season 1 Part 1 DVD " reference. Remove DVD and 2005 from the title and have in date and format.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 12:56, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * That is a cite of a webpage with that as its title, not citing the specific DVD. I changed the brackets to parentheses to fix the ref format. Ophois (talk) 13:03, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * 1) Don't make anything bold in the lead.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 15:50, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Other articles do, including the ones that you recommended me to base this article off of. Ophois (talk) 16:29, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * 1) "began airing" commenced, premiered--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 15:50, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Done Ophois (talk) 16:29, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * 1) "his is the only season to air on the WB television network, with all subsequent seasons airing on the CW television network, a joint venture of the WB and UPN." have that after the quick summary of the season.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 15:50, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Done Ophois (talk) 16:29, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * 1) "demon that killed" "who killed" might be better...--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 15:50, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Done Ophois (talk) 16:29, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * 1) "hunting things" what things?--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 15:50, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Done Ophois (talk) 16:29, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * 1) "Tuesdays at 9:00 pm" what time? UTC, eastern time?--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 15:50, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Done Ophois (talk) 16:48, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * 1) "In the United Kingdom, the season aired on ITV,[4] and was broadcast in Canada on CITY-TV[5] and in Australia on Network Ten.[6]" An introductory sentence about these being syndications would be nice. This should be after the reception information, imo.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 15:50, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Done Ophois (talk) 16:29, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * 1) "The season is also available through digital retailers such as Apple's iTunes Store.." Maybe have Digital distribution somewhere in the sentence?--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 15:50, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Done Ophois (talk) 16:48, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * 1) Wikilink Eric Kripke, Robert Singer, David Nutter and the rest of the staff. There is no shame in having some redlinks. Maybe someone would create relevant articles when seeing a red link.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 15:50, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Done. Ophois (talk) 16:51, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * 1) Please explain "self-enclosed"--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 15:50, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Done. Ophois (talk) 17:02, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * 1) Carefully read the list and the prose for grammatical, spelling or structural problems please...--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 15:50, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Done. Ophois (talk) 17:44, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * 1) "with the season averaging about 3.81 American viewers." This isn't related to the sentence before it.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 17:47, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Done. Ophois (talk) 18:01, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * 1) "among them being two" no need for "being"--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 17:47, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Done. Ophois (talk) 18:01, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * 1) "airing in the United Kingdom on ITV,[9] in Canada on CITY-TV,[10] and in Australia on Network Ten." I think "in" should only be before UK--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 17:47, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I think that grammatically it is currently correct. Ophois (talk) 18:01, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * 1) "The staff writers were Kripke, story editors Sera Gamble and Raelle Tucker, and co-executive producer John Shiban, with Cathryn Humphris serving as writers' assistant." fix the structure.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 17:47, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * What's wrong with the structure? Ophois (talk) 17:55, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * 1) "The regular directors throughout the season were Nutter, Singer, co-executive producer Kim Manners, Peter Ellis, and Phil Sgriccia." So did the co-executive producers also directing?--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 17:47, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes. Ophois (talk) 17:55, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * 1) Wikilink incidental music--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 17:47, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Done. Ophois (talk) 18:01, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * 1) "With the first ten episodes being all self-enclosed," maybe "with" could be removed "The first ten episodes of the Season are self-enclosed"--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 17:47, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Done. Ophois (talk) 18:01, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * 1) Wikilink antagonist --Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 17:47, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Done. Ophois (talk) 18:01, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * 1) Type out CGI and wikilink it--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 17:47, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Done. Ophois (talk) 18:01, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * 1) "As well, the titular villain in " no need for "As well"--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 17:47, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Done. Ophois (talk) 18:01, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * 1) The last paragraph of the Production section is a fork of Supernatural_(TV_series)--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 17:47, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * What do you mean? Ophois (talk) 18:01, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * It's a copy of the paragraph. I meant the one before the last paragraph.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 18:32, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Only the first two sentences are the same. Ophois (talk) 18:51, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Paraphrase the sentences to not read as the same.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 19:00, 27 September 2009 (UTC)


 * 1) Read Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Television--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 19:00, 27 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Comment - Based on the type of production info on this season page, why is it still listed as a "list" and not an article. Obviously, it would need some expansion to be "comprehensive" enough for FA, but the type of production info on the page is about the production of episodes (whereas with list pages like Desperate Housewives and Lost all you're really getting is a list of producers for the show). Based on the production that is being added, it doesn't seem appropriate to call this a "list" any longer. Also, why are the episodes last? This is a season page, and you'd think that something that is more connected to the season (i.e. the episodes) would be first. I've never understood the tendency to put those last on these season pages. Film pages don't do that, and I don't believe that the episode articles do that either (at least not the ones I've seen).   BIGNOLE     (Contact me)  19:12, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * When it was nominated it wasn't that long. Most of the featured season list are structured that the Episode list comes before the DVD release after Cast, Production and Reception. I guess the rest of seasons followed. Maybe if WikiProject_Television/Style_guidelines had articles/list it would be seen as a guideline and practiced throughout the Seasons articles/lists. IMO the current production, Cast, Reception, Episodes arrangement is better because the Episodes list is really long and in lists general info should be before the main list. I think if the production section of this article gets expanded it can be nominated as featured article.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 19:27, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Ah, but WP:MOSTV lists it in a different order. The fact that the "list is long" shouldn't negate the fact that the article is about those episodes. Plot information is supposed to provide context to the real world information. If the plot comes after the real world information, then you have no context. You'd force people to have to read your production info, have no idea what the episode in question is about, and then have to wait till the end just to find out. Whereas, if it's first, it's already there to read. If they don't want to read it, we have a table of contents that will zip them right past it. But organizationally, putting the plot info last is actually wrong. It's like trying to explain what an omelet is before you've explain what an egg is.   BIGNOLE     (Contact me)  19:48, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I guess you're right. All of the season articles/lists should be changed to have the plot/episode list first. --Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 20:08, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Since the production section has expanded already, I think it would be better to have them in subsections. Ophois (talk) 20:10, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes. It would be better if it would have subsections. It needs however more expansions from Supernatural (TV Series).--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 20:13, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I plan on soon creating an article for the pilot episode, so any non-series specific info in the main article would go to that page, IMO. What else would there be to include? Ophois (talk) 20:24, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Supernatural_(TV_series) has some info about Season one episode Dead in the Water. If you could find more info about specific music of episodes would be nice.


 * You've added a Music section with a list of Rock songs used in the Season, which is pretty good. What's the reference used for the songs? And is there any production notes for this.
 * Yeah, it's from the companion guide. I don't really have many production notes for the songs, although I will look for them. There is a lot of info about the score, though, which I'm adding now. Ophois (talk) 21:01, 27 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Comparing with Smallville (season 1) the book reference can have all the information ISBN and so on in the first used reference and doesn't need to have a general subsection of References.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 20:59, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * You need to be careful with that music subsection. Per "Things to avoid", a simple listing of the featured music is discouraged. The only need to list a specific song for an episode (or the season) is when you have commentary to back it up. Otherwise, it's just an indiscriminate list. For instance, providing commentary on why AC/DC was chosen for the pilot. IMDb already keeps those extensive lists for us. Also, music should be part of the production section, since it's part of the process of making an episode.   BIGNOLE     (Contact me)  21:19, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * There are are articles with lists of just songs. The Guitar Hero franchise has featured lists that merely contain the songs in the game.Ophois (talk) 21:23, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Not saying that I agree with that type of page, but that's an entire page just about those songs and it's also and completely different WikiProject. For Guitar Hero, you're talking about a game whose sole purpose is about those featured songs. That isn't the case with TV shows (unless you're talking about Remember The Lyrics, or whatever it's called). It was decided awhile ago that listing "featured songs" on TV related sources had no real encyclopedic purpose, unless there was commentary on why those specific songs were picked.   BIGNOLE     (Contact me)  21:35, 27 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I think the list turned into an article that is actually well written and is just a bit shy of Featured quality. I suggest you do a peer review in which case I can continue reviewing the article, getting it ready for FAC. You have a lot of resources available to fill the comprehensiveness criteria of the FA. This includes information about the music production of Faith episode and general info about music in the Season. You seem to have access to two companion books which give a lot of detail regarding the Season production.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 21:58, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, peer review sounds good. Thanks. Ophois (talk) 22:01, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * What else do you think it needs? Ophois (talk) 22:07, 27 September 2009 (UTC)


 * It generally needs expansions in the production and cast sections. In the cast it needs: How the characters developed and why these actors were chosen for the specific role. The production section's subsections need expansions, you are detailing 22 episodes... Info about writing, mythology, filming locations and music of key episodes needs adding. Were there any visual effects used in the episodes? Special filming techniques of key episodes... Comprehensiveness means all the info available and accessible about the season should be in the article.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 22:20, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment - I was looking over the article (looking good btw), and I saw the "Cast" section. From what I can see, it appears to just regurgitate plot info about the characters. Unless there is some casting info to put in there (in which case it should probably be under "Production") I think it should probably be removed. You can put the actors' names next to their characters in their first appearance in the episode section, or just identify them all in the lead.   BIGNOLE     (Contact me)  14:44, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I was thinking of including some paraphrased casting information from the main article. Ophois (talk) 14:49, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
 * If you think that article needs it, then go for it. Right now, the section as it stands isn't really needed because it doesn't have any real information that isn't already in the episode section (or should be there).   BIGNOLE     (Contact me)  16:08, 28 September 2009 (UTC)


 * IMDB is not generally considered a reliable source. Dabomb87 (talk) 22:34, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
 * That's the closest thing to a reliable source I could find for that.Ophois (talk) 00:06, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Other than finishing off the score and cast section, I think the article has been expanded as far as it can. Ophois (talk) 00:06, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
 * IMDb cannot be cited as a reliable source. The only time it's ever acceptable is when someone points to it. I don't mean someone saying, "I read on IMDB", but for instance the Golden Reel Awards website will point to IMDb's award lists for their awards because they don't keep a comprehensive list of archive awards. Other than that, it's not to be used.   BIGNOLE     (Contact me)  00:46, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
 * You know of any websites that list the nominations for Teen Choice Awards?Ophois (talk) 00:56, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I'd look at the Smallville pages for the years that you need, because it typically get nominated/wins Teen Choice Awards each year.   BIGNOLE     (Contact me)  01:02, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
 * The one for 2006 only links to the winners.Ophois (talk) 01:11, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

I assume that means they didn't win anything in 2006. I'll see if I can find you a 2006 nomination link.  BIGNOLE     (Contact me)  03:13, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I found this link. It's a translated webpage where they talk about the 2006 Teen Choice Awards. I see that Supernatural was nominated.   BIGNOLE     (Contact me)  03:21, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
 * That's perfect. Thanks. Ophois (talk) 10:15, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
 * You mind looking over the writing and effects sections?Ophois (talk) 11:30, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I'll take a look when I get a chance, but I think the whole article needs a thorough copy edit that will take some time. A couple of other things: Why include the "story by" in the writing credits. Those credits are largely irrelevant because they didn't actually "write" the episode just came up with the story. Also, I don't think we need the "series" number for season 1 given that it's season one and the season number is the series number.   BIGNOLE     (Contact me)  14:23, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, the companion guide lists people who came up with the story as "writer". As for the numbering, yeah, I guess it's fine if the numbers are removed. Ophois (talk) 22:08, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I think the "Crew" section is probably okay to be removed. Unless these people are restricted to just this season, chances are they are just the people that have always run the show (i.e. it's something that would probably be identical on every season page, with minor changes here and then when someone new comes in). We don't need a list of the executive producers, and the writers and directors are all listed in the episode table. If anyone important is listed there then they'll probably be mentioned somewhere else in the article.   BIGNOLE     (Contact me)  23:09, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Quick comment: What is the purpose of the "Legend" section of the episode table? The plot section already identifies the legend, so it seems redundant to list it all by itself there.  BIGNOLE     (Contact me)  15:09, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
 * It makes it easier for browsing, and other articles like the Lost episodes use a similar format. Ophois (talk) 15:45, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Browsing what? If you don't have any idea what the show is about then you won't understand the format. I don't know what Lost does it either. It's redundant to the plot section. Also, how does it make it easier to browse? The legend list isn't in the table of contents, so it isn't like you can see a name and zip right to the plot section it appears in. Given that all the legends are identified and linked in the plot, they tend to stand out already.   BIGNOLE     (Contact me)  15:52, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
 * True. I guess they can be removed, and just link the stuff within the plot section.Ophois (talk) 15:55, 30 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Okay. Article is pretty much finished content-wise.Ophois (talk) 15:50, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Well there is information from http://www.mania.com/supernatural-music-christopher-lennertz_article_51827.html that isn't in the article, like the music of "Faith".--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 16:00, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Okay, I added in more stuff from it. Ophois (talk) 16:26, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Ophois should probably go ahead and denominated this FLC, as we've been carrying on here instead of on the article talk page like we should have (given that it seems agreed that we move this to full "article" status to get it read for an FAC.   BIGNOLE     (Contact me)  16:05, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Do I just delete it from the list?Ophois (talk) 16:16, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
 * No, an Admin takes care of the actual process. What you need to do is put a note at the top of the page requesting that the process by closed--that you are withdrawing the nomination--as the page no longer reflects that of a "list" but an "article".   BIGNOLE     (Contact me)  16:49, 30 September 2009 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.