Wikipedia:Featured picture candidates/4th FW Strike Eagles assist shuttle launch

The last flight of the space shuttle Atlantis
Voting period ends on 7 Aug 2010 at 14:27:52 (UTC)
 * Reason:An amazing view of a space shuttle launch, and historic launch (last launch of the shuttle Atlantis).
 * Articles in which this image appears:STS-132
 * FP category for this image:Aeronautics and aviation/Military
 * Creator:Capt. John Peltier, USAF


 * Support as nominator --— raeky  T  14:27, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment: Visually impressive image, but I'm not convinced about the EV. What's it actually illustrating? J Milburn (talk) 14:36, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Two things, the launch from a unique prospective and the military escort to clear the airway around the launch. — raeky  T  14:38, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Image quality is rather poor (unsharp, blown highlights, tilted bigtime). You cannot see the shuttle, just a column of smoke, and the F-15 looks like included in the picture for show effect only. Overall very snapshotty. --Dschwen 15:37, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
 * You sure that's not a bad faith pointy !vote based on comments on some of your photos? It is a FP on two other projects. — raeky  T  15:48, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes I am. I am capable of separating those things, are you? --Dschwen 18:15, 29 July 2010 (UTC) P.S.: I noticed the nom on commons but didn't bother voting as it would have made a difference anymore. For me this is a perfect candidate for Valued Picture. The subject matter is unique, but the technical quality is just not there. All the excuses I heard here so far don't change this. --Dschwen 18:23, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Suppose I was wrong, but it did seem a little harsh for the photograph. Maybe it's not FP quality, we'll see. It is a unique view on a unique event though. — raeky  T  20:04, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
 * To add, this is anything but a "snapshot" the shuttle is traveling at extreme velocities at that point, so there would only be a second or two to get that picture before its to high to make a picture like that, and that combined with taking the photo through the canopy of the neighboring jet traveling at high speed is anything but a casual snapshot. The tilt is an artistic choice, and there is no rule that all photographs have to be exact level with the horizon! It's sufficiently sharp for an image taken under such circumstances and through the canopy of a jet and at 3.6mp it can be downsampled to solve any minor focus issues it has. Any blown highlight is in the pure white smoke trail, which obviously being pure white in the sun isn't going to show lots of detail. Obviously you can't see the shuttle from this height and distance, that's not the point of this photograph. The F-15 isn't just there for show, it's there to secure the airspace to protect to spacecraft. — raeky  T  16:26, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
 * there would only be a second or two to get that picture, well, yes, that is probably why it comes out as a snapshot. Duh! In second or two you cannot make big artistic decisions, you cannot carefully chose composition and setup. --Dschwen 18:17, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Thats where talent, experience and a bit of luck comes to play. — raeky  T  18:52, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Neutral This was probably shot through the canopy of an F-15 fighter at 500 knots so we have to take our hats off and hold them humbly in our hands as we forgive the poor pilot wearing an oxygen mask while s/he took the photo. A quick look at the histogram shows there are actually no blown highlights. Given the technical challenges here, I think we can attribute the fact that the plane is at something like 20,000 feet and is capturing a two-mile-long exhaust trail as lending what might seem “snapshotty” (i.e. far away). It illustrates “Rocket liftoff from an aerial view” perfectly well; that’s the EV part. The quality is certainly passable. The main issue here (for me) is this: is the “image eye-catching to the point where users will want to read its accompanying article.” I saw this earlier and thought “I’m not so sure.” Greg L (talk) 16:48, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
 * the histogram shows there are actually no blown highlights, ok, no offense, but then you probably do not know how to make a connection between the histogram and blown highlights, because there are obviously there. There is visible clipping. If in postprocessing the clipped regions were mapped from #ffffff to a slightly darker shade that does not change the fact that the highlights are blown. --Dschwen 18:20, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, you are correct. In this instance, multiple trips to Photoshop by different people resulted in blown highlights without the histogram in the final version piling up data in a spike along the right-hand edge. The white smoke is indeed blown out. Silver-based film used to be able to shoot really wide dynamic range. I see so many digital photos nowadays where, to prevent the God-forsaken “blown highlights,” the overall picture is adjusted too dark. This image has the brightness adjusted so it “looks right.” That’s all we really need until digital cameras improve. The fighter jet doesn’t look way too dark so it doesn’t surprise me that white smoke in the same image no longer has detail. Do *I* need to see detail in white smoke? No. And the work around would be exposure-bracketed HDR, as used here on “Chicago Theater”. That doesn’t work on moving subjects like hockey players on ice and space shuttles traveling at hypersonic speeds when shot from a fighter jet. Greg L (talk) 18:41, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
 * No, the work around would be slightly underexposing, capturing as a RAW file and lifting the shadows in postprocessing. Furthermore the photographer should have chosen a slightly more open aperture. f/16 is diffraction limited, and it shows! At f/11 for example the exposure time would have been way shorter than 1/200s which for the 70mm focal length in a roaring fighter plane seems to have been a bit too long as well. Anyhow the image most certainly is a crop of a tiny region of the 20MP full frame image. As such the framing and tilt can be assumed to be all fully intentional. --Dschwen 18:52, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Underexposing with a digital camera? That would result in the dreaded “Oppose Digital noise in the shadows.” Greg L (talk) 18:56, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
 * No, that should not happen ISO100 or ISO50, and you'd only underexpose by half a stop or so. Plus if you use the correct focal length and not crop the shit out of your 20MP fullframe image you still have plenty of room for editing. It all boils down to this: the image, while having a compelling subject matter, has major technical flaws which could have been prevented at time of photography. FP no, VP yes. --Dschwen 19:13, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Those darned military photographers. It’s like “Good enough for government work” and they just leave it at that. I can see you know your way around digital photography and would have produced better had you been in the back seat of the F15. I still use my 645 (120 & 220 roll film) Mamiya and hand-held light meter. If I use a digital camera, it’s just my wife’s point & shoot. I’m not going to spring for an SLR digital until it can shoot a 16 × 20 and do it razor-sharp. Greg L (talk) 19:28, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Just to clarify, because i cannot let your insinuation stand: I do not claim that I would have produced better had [I] been in the back seat of the F15. And I hope we are not making this the prerequisite for voting oppose on FPC. There is a nice german saying: You don't have to be a cow to judge the taste of milk. I'm pointing out what (in my opinion) could have been done better (maybe by me, who knows. Maybe you can sponsor me for a little ride on a F-15 ;-) ). --Dschwen 19:43, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
 * You took that as an insinuation and as a back-handed complement. I meant it as a pure complement. I have no doubt you would have done a better job. It is clear to me that if you had been in the back seat of that F15, you would have fallen back on tried & true practices. You don’t understand me yet. I do not use wiki-speak to insult. That phenomenon of hiding insult behind a flimsy facade of disingenuous sweet-talk is bull crap and I will never succumb to the culture that fosters that sort of behavior. I say what I mean (unless I am employing humor, which is usually obvious enough except for the humor-challenged). I admire and respect your knowledge of digital photography. Greg L (talk) 19:55, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Ok, fair enough. Thanks I guess. Alrighty then, looks like we have thoroughly spammed this nomination with pleasant conversation ;-). Moving on to the next nomination :-D. --Dschwen 20:01, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
 * For about $42,000 you can get a 60 MP Hasselblad H4D-60. That work? — raeky  T  19:39, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes. Just about right. Who do I have to mug? I was going to add that there are some camera-backs that cost as much as cars right now that can pull this off. I figure I’ll need about 25 MP to just barely get the same quality as my Mamiya. What’s that… another two years before “prosumer”-grade cameras (affordable) are there? Digital is nice because you know what you’re gonna get within seconds—before you tear down the studio lights or leave the limestone cave, or whatever. Silver is a blast because you gotta run all over with the light meter and really think through the light & shadow if you want to be happy two days later when the proofs come back. If it ain’t difficult, it ain’t a true blast; it’s merely enjoyable. Greg L (talk) 19:50, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Depends on what your level of "affordable" is, best Canon now is 21.1mp (cheaper one is the EOS 5D Mark II, $2,500 body, and more expensive is EOS-1Ds Mark III at $6,100 body) and for Nikon it's D3x which is 24.5mp and the body is $7,400. — raeky  T  19:57, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I paid $1100 for my Mamiya in 1980. The equivalent of that in today’s dollars: that’s what I would call “affordable”. I suspect that is under seven grand. Greg L (talk) 20:04, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
 * squeeze Yep, it equals to about $2900 . --Dschwen 21:18, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the inflation calc. I got it bookmarked. Greg L (talk) 05:06, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
 * The D3x does look like a nice camera, if only that was even remotely within my range. All my existing lenses and accessories are Canon though so that sorta locks me into that model. But I do have an affinity for film photography, and I'm afraid that for the most part all the film and paper manufactures for it may be going out of business before long. My nice Canon EOS 3 hasn't been used in almost a decade now and is virutally unsellable. But I do want to outfit a nice darkroom of my own at some point in the near future. — raeky  T  20:09, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Support Yes, there are some quality issues, but how often do you see an image about (guessing) 3-7 miles long of something like this? Fighter jets don't hover, the person who managed to catch it either was very fast with their camera, which also had to be very fast to catch the rocket before it was too out of sight while also being fast enough to get the jet or privileged to have been on an nearly equally fast jet themselves. Overall it's amazing there's no blurring! And it's just so classic how the skyline and the sea line meld together so there's no horizon. -- I'ḏ ♥  One  17:15, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I think we can safely assume that the picture was not taken by a hovering photographer either but from a fighter plane as well. Thus the relative velocity between the two is important, and thus it does not matter the least bit how fast fighter jets are flying. --Dschwen 18:54, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
 * This is a tough one. I love the picture, it definitely has EV, the tilt doesn't matter, and it's sharp... I just have one problem: The jet. It distracts heavily from the focus of the image, and creates a strange contrast in size that, without a real depth of field, makes it almost appear like a tiny missile was launched at him and just missed. If the jet were not there, this would be an enthusiastic support, but with it there... I still have to say Weak support, because I know it's not really replaceable, and editing the jet out would likely be a difficult task, and could - possibly - not improve things, as otherwise the photograph is a little sparse. --Golbez (talk) 19:45, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Due to the near uniform blue behind the jet it would be rather trivial to clone out, but I don't think such an edit would be better, and I think the Jet adds something to the picture, namely the military escort and security that goes with these launches. — raeky  T  19:48, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I still cannot look at it without thinking "Tiny missile!" but yeah, the problem is, leave the jet there and it's a little distracting, get rid of it and the image becomes sparse. Damned if do, damned if don't. --Golbez (talk) 21:04, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I went ahead and created a version without the jet so you can see how it would look, and I noticed something interesting with the original file. When you select the Clone tool in Photoshop two numbered points show up over the jet, I attached a screenshot of the area. I don't know enough about Photoshop's clone tool to know exactly what these are, since I've never created points like that or know how to. Maybe someone here knows what they're for? Does this possibly mean that the jet was digitally cloned into the photograph? — raeky  T  21:34, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
 * No, Photoshop would have no way of knowing that from a JPG file. --Dschwen 21:37, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Not true, Photoshop embeds meta data into JPEG's. Those points are in the original file, load it into Photoshop yourself and look. — raeky  T  21:38, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Wow, you are right it is in the EXIF data (see comment source if you are interested). Quite a bit of cloning was done on the image. But probably just dust spots. Let's see... --Dschwen 21:53, 29 July 2010 (UTC)


 * An IP modified my file on Commons and said those two points are white balance black & white color points, they could be I guess, but I've not seen where they persist on the picture and only show up when the Clone tool is selected... hmm. — raeky  T  23:32, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Oppose for now, but open to persuasion. I'm just not seeing the EV. We have a column of smoke, and a jet. It doesn't illustrate anything in particular. It's a great image (a stunning image, in fact, to my eyes- the composition's great) but it seems to be mostly decorative. J Milburn (talk) 21:48, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Support It's a fascinating image and I can feel comfortable supporting it.  upstate NYer  01:06, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment: I admit I am still not clear as to what this image is of, but surely, judging from the article in which it is used, it should be listed under Aeronautics and aviation/Space? J Milburn (talk) 14:37, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
 * When I first listed it I thought the focus was mostly on the military escort of the shuttle launch... thats why I picked the category I did. — raeky  T  14:46, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Oppose I can't see the EV in this picture. On a side note, I strongly oppose the kind of image manipulation that involves cloning out objects. See for example Nikolai Yezhov.  P. S. Burton  (talk)  12:52, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
 * It was only done since a voter commented about he thought it would be better without the jet, it's not for voting. — raeky  T  13:18, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

--Makeemlighter (talk) 14:14, 7 August 2010 (UTC)