Wikipedia:Featured picture candidates/Mongolian woman condemned to die of starvation

Mongolian woman condemned to die of starvation
Voting period ends on 26 Nov 2012 at 09:56:27 (UTC)
 * Reason: This unique historic photograph depicts a harrowing scene in which a woman is held captive in a wooden crate and left to die of starvation. It is both a mesmerizing illustration of not-so-distant history and a fine example of early color photography.
 * Articles in which this image appears:Starvation, Capital punishment in Mongolia, Immurement
 * FP category for this image:Featured pictures/History/Others
 * Creator:M. Stéphane Passet (1875-?) on behalf of Albert Kahn (1860-1940), retouched and uploaded by CMBJ


 * Support as nominator —  C M B J   09:56, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Support, the colors seem to be true, although slightly enhanced compared to original. Brandmeistertalk  13:11, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
 * comment Do we have a solid source that this actually depicts what it claims to depict?©Geni 17:45, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
 * I imagine its publication in the National Geographic includes a description of what is shown. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 17:52, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Since Geni raised this point, I went ahead and looked around for further information and found that there has been speculation about the photograph (e.g., here, here, here, and here) since I originally uploaded it in 2010. The proposed caption is based directly on National Geographic 41(5) and I am not presently aware of any additional authoritative commentary beyond Okuefuna's apparent conjecture in The Dawn of the Color Photograph. —  C M B J   13:08, 18 November 2012 (UTC)
 * I was on the look out for sources I could use to ameliorate the articles following the concerns below. They are few, but this is one. However, it really does pour doubt on this photograph showing a starvation (if you google "Mongolia Starvation Punishment" then I haven't found one describing starvation in this matter) - the passage from the linked book ("sometimes criminals were put in wooden boxes...") makes it sound like an internment rather than a death sentence. It's discussed alongside other physical punishments, and the paragraph finishes "lay there 2-3 months without being able to move". That, I think, refers to another form of punishment. The fact remains that any reference to the person actually dying is conspicuously absent. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 11:28, 19 November 2012 (UTC)
 * I've come up with this (CHAPTER XV), this, this, and this. I'll follow up later today or tomorrow. —  C M B J   14:38, 19 November 2012 (UTC)
 * I've had a look and those very much suggest it's a form of prison. e.g. "... the prisoners allowed to come out except for execution or – rarely  – to be set free. The majority are in for life sentences." which suggests they are fed and watered. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 16:52, 19 November 2012 (UTC)
 * It appears that all of these books (excepting the last) describe a specific state dungeon in Urga. I'll continue looking for further details about the practice elsewhere in Mongolia; particularly as it relates to solitary outdoor placement in the plains/desert. —  C M B J   00:07, 20 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Conditional Support : there are fewer better examples of historical, unique images. Somewhat fortunately, this is one. However from a licensing perspective it needs a PD-Art tag; a declaration in respect of the retouchings (that is, your contribution - in the US you wouldn't have a right to one, but elsewhere maybe). Also it would be worth clarifying PD-US to PD-1923 (because this makes clear the country of origin isn't important). Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 17:52, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Weak oppose: Updated per below, too many doubts about what is depicted to accurately assess the image. If it is just a prison, then contribution to "immurement" is zero, and "capital punishment in Mongolia" small. That's not to say the caption is wrong, it just needs further investigation. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 22:14, 25 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Oppose. There is nothing about this method in the article. It's really not adding anything. Please remember that we are judging the use of images in articles, not merely the image itself. J Milburn (talk) 16:45, 18 November 2012 (UTC)
 * I think the image provides an example of Capital punishment in Mongolia and Immurement. I am no stranger to an argument that says that an image could contribute, but doesn't yet, but I do feel in this case that the relation between the image and the subjects of those two articles is strong enough that it adds considerably even without extensive discussion. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 17:48, 18 November 2012 (UTC)
 * It's certainly adding more to the article on immurement than the one on capital punishment in Mongolia. J Milburn (talk) 18:45, 18 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Oppose per J Milburn. Armbrust The Homonculus 20:43, 18 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Support Huge impact makes for high EV IMO. -- King of &hearts;   &diams;   &clubs;  &spades; 04:27, 22 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Support per King of Hearts. Tomer T (talk) 18:40, 22 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose also going to have to agree with J Milburn. — raeky  t  08:01, 24 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Support - As a photograph this is quite striking, even if its technical aspects are up to the bar set by some early B&W photographs we've seen here. This should have more information about it in the articles, but its use in immurement is high enough EV for me. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 01:33, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Immurement states that it's being walled up inside a building or structure, nothing about some wooden box with locks and hinges. How does this have much EV for that article? — raeky  t  03:16, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment: I don't see how this photograph has EV until we know what it shows. It's a bit like a butterfly we haven't identified - it could go in a broad article but for FP we want it tied down and contributing to something more specific. I suggest CMBJ relists if/when he or she can confirm whether this is a method of death, i.e. immurement, or one of imprisonment. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 09:52, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
 * The original caption says she was meant to die. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 11:49, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
 * I think I have substantiated enough of a case above to suggest that may be incorrect. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 11:59, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
 * If you think it's incorrect, than why do you still support the image. Armbrust The Homonculus 19:21, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Good point, updated.

--Julia\talk 20:09, 26 November 2012 (UTC)