Wikipedia:Featured picture candidates/Vernon and Irene Castle

Vernon and Irene Castle

 * Reason:One of the most important couples of twentieth century ballroom dancing: before there was Fred Astaire and Ginger Rogers, there was Vernon and Irene Castle. One measure of how well a couple dances is how close their bodies are.  From the toe to the hip they practically touch.  A large file with good photographic composition--it appears that the edges of the negative were painted, so I preserved that effect.  Unrestored version at Image:Vernon and Irene Castle.jpg.
 * Articles this image appears in:Ballroom dance, Vernon and Irene Castle
 * Creator:Frances Benjamin Johnston


 * Support as nominator -- Durova Charge! 01:02, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment The head poise of the gentleman is wrong. This flaw could be remedied by an appropriate caption. See Image:Ballroom dance exhibition.jpg or Image:2005 ballroom dance championships.JPG for what is the accepted modern standard. What's shown in the image *may* possibly have been acceptable historically (but I'm not aware of any hard evidence for that), but it misrepresents ballroom dancing today. In any case, it would require clarification imo. Papa Lima Whiskey (talk; todo) 09:15, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Please bear in mind the image is at the history section and includes the date in the caption. Durova Charge! 10:30, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Support A marvelous photo--perhaps not the best quality, but just look at them dancing! A truly legendary couple in the history of partner dance. I would hesitate to say that anything Vernon Castle did was "wrong" or a "flaw". Different dancers have different styles, and if a master is dancing a certain way, then it is likely because it his his style rather than because it is a mistake.  Different dances also have different traditional postures. The two photos you linked to are waltzes, whereas it is not entirely clear from this photo what sort of dance the Castles are doing. (Might it be a tango?) Calliopejen1 (talk) 05:56, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
 * The Castles were best known for the Foxtrot. I'm not sure whether it's that or some other dance, but the foxtrot article links to a video clip of a recent competition and it appears that the male dancers do tilt their heads in a similar position at some moments.  Durova Charge! 04:01, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
 * The physics of dance have been completely worked out. People in the business can tell you instantly, for example, whether a dancer has good footwork or not, and can tell you why, and, more importantly, agree with each other. The room for interpretation does not extend to technique, it is restricted to issues of timing and the size of each movement. If you're not using the physics properly, you will never achieve the look that modern judges are looking for. Foxtrot is a good guess for this picture; tango is less likely unless it is Argentine Tango, in which case, it would call into question the caption which identifies them as "ballroom dancers". Argentine Tango is not among the line-up of dances currently recognised as ballroom dances by bodies such as IDSF (see Ballroom dance for more information). In conclusion, "style" never trumps technique. If your technique is bad, your style can't be worth much. You probably need to entertain the possibility that this is not a picture of this couple actually dancing, but rather, being stationary waiting for the picture to complete. You will know this if you've ever tried to take pictures at an indoor ball, even with a modern camera. This, again, could be quite feasibly worked into the caption. Papa Lima Whiskey (talk; todo) 15:14, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Support original per Calliopejen. Strong oppose Edit 1 - I fail to see how less detail = better prints. Shoemaker&#39;s Holiday (talk) 13:13, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Support Edit 1 - I don't think we need an image that big. A down-sampled photo will do much better, both for viewing on computer and prints. --Arad (talk) 21:40, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Support Original per nom and Calliopejen Strong oppose Edit 1 pointless downsampling. Mfield (talk) 21:17, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Support Original - I totally agree with Papa Lima Whiskey that this is most likely a still posed shot. However, as an illustration of two people who were, almost a hundred years ago, ballroom dancers, in their article, I think it wouldn't matter if they were hanging from monkey bars, as the subject matter is the people, not dance technique. It's a little harder to make that argument in the history section of the Ballroom Dance article but the way it is being used there in no way implies that they are demonstrating anything specific. Instead it shows that these two people were historically important. I'd welcome a suggested better caption there from Papa Lima Whiskey. The current one certainly doesn't hold them up as examples of modern technique, and it dates them correctly and treats the photo as a portrait (it doesn't even say they are dancing) so a specific suggestion would be helpful. The only one I can think of, "Vernon and Irene Castle probably not dancing and possibly not showing modern day style in 1910" doesn't really seem to work. Not trying to be snarky here, just at a loss for what else could be said. pschemp | talk 16:52, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment All this discussion of whether their technique is "correct" strikes me as completely anachronistic. I don't know details of the history of dancesport, but the IDSF wasn't even founded until 1957 and according to Foxtrot that dance wasn't even invented until 1914. (And the Castles were the couple that popularized it!) Extreme standardization of social dance is a modern phenomenon. Calliopejen1 (talk) 18:09, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
 * And I've not said anything that contradicts your most recent statements. But I'd like to avoid giving a misleading image of ballroom dancing, as might happen if we gave insufficient weight to the historic context. Papa Lima Whiskey (talk; todo) 18:32, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I think your concern is valid, but that in the context of their current use, the historic context is already sufficiently weighted. (Though admittedly, the history of Ballroom dance section is really quite poor to begin with.) I took a stab at that caption in the ballroom dance article, so it now reads, "Vernon and Irene Castle, early ballroom dance pioneers, c.1910-1918". Not sure what else to do. Are you worried about how it will appear in the FPC listing by itself? pschemp | talk 20:04, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Papa Lima Whiskey (talk) 10:03, 10 August 2008 (UTC)