Wikipedia:Featured picture candidates/Wolf Point, Chicago

Wolf Point, Chicago
Voting period ends on 25 Jul 2010 at 22:20:41 (UTC)
 * Reason:This is a high EV image that was suspended (see Featured picture candidates/Chicago River at night) when it was realized that its highest EV uses were redlinks.
 * Articles in which this image appears:Wolf Point, Chicago 350 West Mart Center Chicago River Merchandise Mart 300 North LaSalle 333 Wacker Drive Kinzie Street railroad bridge
 * FP category for this image:Featured pictures/Places/Urban
 * Creator:Flickr user Mike Boehmer

/TonyTheTiger|C]]/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 22:20, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Support as nominator --TonyTheTiger (T/[[Special:Contributions
 * My oppose reasons were technical, so nothing has changed for me since a few days ago when to image was last nominated. Sorry. --Dschwen 00:56, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Oppose as flickr Kitsch and on EV grounds, marginal EV on any individual article since it's a night shot and not of any specific building. — raeky ( talk 02:26, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
 * O.K., I am going to continue to pretend to not see what is going on and ask a foolish question. Has there ever been an argument on FP that night broad Panos of important subjects have less EV because they do not highlight a specific subject or is that an argument you just create for my noms. (assuming this is considered an important subject).--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 15:42, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I just feel that the night scene combined with the poorly done HDR makes it not FP worthy. — raeky ( talk 16:17, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Support While it has a little bit of digital noise in the lower left-hand corner of the water (which can be fixed) it is clearly a truly stunning image. It illustrates a multi-bulding area (Wolf Point) in a way I had not imagined (having taken a boat tour there during the day). Being a time exposure, one can even see some of the brighter stars above the sky, like one might be able to do with the naked, night-adapted eye. I can’t see any stitching seams—even in the water (which is a neat trick). I’m sure very many of our I.P. visitors (who we’re all creating content for) will really stop and stare at this one. I can’t wait to see the traffic stats on Wolf Point the day after this appears on the Main Page. Greg L (talk) 02:52, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Oppose - stunning image, but oppose per Raeky. -- Jack ?! 03:10, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Oppose poss strong oppose... I hate glare from lights in night shots... Over-exposure I think it is but not 100% sure... but the blue lights at Left top and left centre, and the orange lights along centre line to far right centre are all very distracting due to their glare... And the top of the buildings at far left and 3rd in from right (inc cut off building) are lacking in detail due to light levels... It's a great picture, just not worthy of an FP for me sorry... Oh and while I'm here can I just say the EV is useless for the named buildings in this shot... as a non-chicagoean this picture doesn't give me any clue about the buildings you have placed this into... Each listed building could be any of about a dozen in this shot, so saying this pic is high in EV for each article is not right in my opinion... For example if I wanted to find a picture of for example 300 North LaSalle this picture would not help me in the slightest, and that's kinda against the idea of an encyclopedia for me... Gazhiley (talk) 23:57, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
 * No one said it was high EV in each article. It is only high EV in the first two.  It is like any pano of a variety of encyclopedic subjects.  It not high EV for all of them.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 00:17, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
 * It's quoted in the introduction as a "high EV image" and listed as in 7 articles... So therefore one would naturally assume it was high EV for all... If it has only got EV for two, then why nom it for 7? Just nom it for the two it has EV for...  And my point still remains...  if I wanted to see what the Wolf Point, Chicago or the 350 West Mart Center (the first two in the list that you says it has high EV for) looked like this image is useless as it could be any part of this picture... How do I know from this which building 350 West Mart Center is?! Plus I still don't like the glare from the lights... Gazhiley (talk) 10:39, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
 * 7 articles are listed in "Articles in which this image apppears" not "Articles in which this is a high EV image".--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 13:19, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
 * But this is my point - it shouldn't be listed in those articles as it has no EV for them... Matthewedwards has re-iterated this below as well... Gazhiley (talk) 10:46, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Dear right hand, I have fixed the WP:CAPTIONs. Get off it. signed the left hand.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 13:19, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
 * That's very innapropriate and inflamatory language Tony and I'd appreciate it if you didn't use such a tone. I'm merely pointing out my objections. Personally I don't care what you have done to WP:CAPTIONs I still don't agree that this picture belongs on most of the articles due to lack of EV. I'm allowed to voice my opinions without receiving such attitude in return as far as I'm aware... Gazhiley (talk) 13:46, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I have said time and time again that you picture guys (The left hand) are the only reviewers who prefer not to have medium and low EV images added to the articles. All other review processes (The right hand, i.e, FAC, GAC, FLC, PR, etc.) prefer images of this type to be added.  Which articles do you feel would be improved by its removal?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 14:25, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
 * All of them except Wolf Point, Chicago and Chicago River. It has no EV in articles on individual buildings because the image doesn't help identify the individual buildings or bridge, even with the best written captions. I can only identify the buildings and bridge because the articles have other images of them, and for that reason, this image is useless in those articles. I think you've misunderstood both hands. I think the "left hand" does appreciate medium and low EV images in articles, because they still offer some EV; they just don't nominate them at FPC because they're not high EV. When images provide high EV in one article but little in another, the "left hand" simply doesn't list it under "Articles in which this image appears". What that sentence really means, and there could be an argument to change the wording, is, "Articles in which this image appears [and provides high EV]". The "right hand" appreciates medium and low EV images in articles, too, as long as they provide some EV. I've written plenty of FAs and FLs and reviewed many more, and I was the FL director for over a year. If you nominated any of the articles you've listed this image in at FAC or FLC, I would question the image's EV. You got Inauguration of Barack Obama listed at FA. Miley Cyrus sang at the Kid's Ball, and George Lopez did some standup, but you wouldn't slap image of them in there just because we happen to have pictures of them available. FA, FL and GA require the article stays on topic and is relevant, and this applies equally to the pictures used as well as prose. Matthewedwards :  Chat  15:07, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Couldn't have put it better myself Matthewedwards... Oh and btw Tony it was more the "Get off it" rather than the hand bit I objected to... Gazhiley (talk) 15:24, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I shouldn't have to say, that I have done enough WP:GAs to know what reviewers want since I may have the most on WP. An article like Inauguration of Barack Obama has an abundance of exactly on point images so we don't need tangential images. That is not what most of the articles we are discussing here are like.  Look at my next WP:GAC (1997 Michigan Wolverines football team).  I am not going to find a bunch of images of that team playing.  I am going to have to put in a bunch of low EV images. A bunch of images you pictures you guys would say have no relevance.  Stuff like pictures of the stadium and players a decade later will be pretty much the only choices I have.  Reviewers will be happy to see these images because we have nothing else.  Lets look at an article like Kinzie Street railroad bridge that you think would be better off without the image.  The main author of the article who has nominated it at WP:GAC has deciced to move the image it into the main text.  Obviously, people who know the GAC process understand how less than perfect images help an article.  Removing it from 350 West Mart Center would border on idiotic. It is not the best we can hope for, but it is not degrading the article.  In many of its other placements, it is sort of decorative, but does not have a negative impact on any of the articles.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 18:33, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I know the GAC process perfectly and have experienced it many times. I do not understand how images that don't help the reader, help the article. Removing it from the West Mart Center makes perfect sense because the image does not help a reader identify that building. Only an idiot wouldn't be able to see that. And on that point, I think I'll stop. There's just no helping you. Matthewedwards : Chat  20:03, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I am going to assume for a second that you can see by the picture that anyone familiar with the neighborhood would know what building we are talking about by having this image at 350 West Mart Center. If you are going to pretend it would not help the reader know the location of the building, I might as well ignore you. Sure the reader can not look and see if the building is limestone, granite or brick, but the reader can see "Oh it is that building at Wolf Point."  That helps many readers who know what they are looking at.  Night images are not uncommon on WP. this is one that is in a lot of Chicago articles.  This recent FA is another.  There are a bunch of others.  Clearly, you can not see many of the architectural features, but purging WP of night images is not really that sensible.  If we get a good daytime image, we can move this down in the article.  Without a good replacement, I see no reason not to have an image that clearly represents the location of a building.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 21:41, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
 * What about the readers who aren't familiar with the neighbourhood. There are far more readers of Wikipedia who are not, than readers who are. Of course the reader needs to know the location of the building, I just don't think this image achieves that in the best way possible, or even in one of the best ways. I like night images, I like this image. I could see it blown up to poster size and hung on a white wall of some yuppie's studio apartment, I just don't think it's good for some of the articles it's in. I haven't said to delete night images from Wikipedia. I'm really not going to continue this any longer. Clearly we're just going around in circles when there are plenty of other things on the site that need doing. :) Best, Matthewedwards :  Chat  14:54, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
 * oppose I agree with Greg that this is visually attractive and would entice readers to any articles it's attatched to in a blurb if it appeared on the main page. For that it gets 2 thumbs up. But I also agree that it is completely useless in the articles listed because there is no way for the person to properly identify each building, and the captions at the articles don't help any either. At Wolf Point, Chicago, the caption says "Night view of Wolf point [sic] (located between 350 West Mart Center and the Chicago River" Well, I don't know what 350 West Mart Center is, so it doesn't help me locate Wolf Point. It doesn't highlight what 350 West Mart Center is in that article either, because that caption says "Apparel Center sits at a juncture in the Chicago River." Great. So do a bunch of other buildings in that picture. It's a poor illustration of the Chicago River, because it's nighttime, so the river is black and just reflects all the lights, and doesn't show any detail of the actual river (take look at our FP of the River Thames). It's nice decoration for the articles it's in, but it's crap at illustrating the subjects. Matthewedwards :  Chat  22:14, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I can fix the captions and appreciate the feedback.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 23:20, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment Featured Pictures are defined as follows:Featured pictures are images that add significantly to articles, either by illustrating article content particularly well, or being eye-catching to the point where users will want to read its accompanying article.
 * I would have thought it clear that this image is eye-catching and would make our visiting readership stop and want to click that article. I’m surprised others don’t feel that way. Greg L (talk) 00:49, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Greg it is not you. It is me. There is WP:GANG of people derailing my WP:CUP picture points by pretending every image I post has no EV.  If I wanted to win the CUP I would not be spending my time here.  I could put up about 3000 points in the final round by doing DYKs if I wanted to win.  I will mostly just go about my business here on WP and whatever score I get I get.  Fortunately, for all of Sasatas fans here in the Mushroom fan club there are not enough DYKs that I am interested in doing for the CUP to win.  I could have been a contender if not judged by people trying incessantly to pick fights with me, but don't try to make any sense of the logic they use to shoot down my noms. You will go crazy if you believe that they believe what they are saying.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 04:34, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I had no idea you were in the Cup, and I don't think I've ever voted on a mushroom photo. Matthewedwards : Chat  14:54, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Tony, this has got nothing to do with the Cup- you can't even claim points for these, as you and everyone involved with the Cup knows. Your random attacks on Sasata (who is one of our best content writers and a capable photographer) just make you look sour. There's no conspiracy, there's no attempt from anyone to derail your nominations, and there's no unfair advantage that Sasata has over you. If you have a genuine complaint about the Cup, make it in the correct venue, and I will of course hear you out; please don't drag it up here. J Milburn (talk) 19:04, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
 * First of all, I have a lot of respect for Sasata, who is most likely the most productive wikipedian in the world right now (There was a time when I was and there was a then Mitchezania was). I actually made sure to recognize Sasata personally when he surpassed me at WP:FOUR.  I would put my money on him to win the CUP.  I don't have the time to be as productive as him.  I understand that I could not get credit for this image.  My point is that there is a WP:GANG saying crazy stuff to derail any FPC or VPC for which I could earn CUP points.  I don't have enough of an interest or belief in the process to pursue it any further than to say it exists.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 19:37, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I can assure you that I am not in any such gang, so far as I am aware. I don't remember you nominating any which could have gained you Cup points. J Milburn (talk) 02:25, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I am not naming names, but a lot of the shenanigans is in suddenly preferring no perspective correction now that I have learned hugin. Every architecture work I have nomed and corrected has either failed or been passed uncorrected.  The other stuff is just pretending not to understand why everywhere else on WP except the picture world would consider the pictures relevant.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 02:30, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
 * For transparency, I just thought I let everybody know that I also have been put in relation with this "gang". For my part I know is absurd, but anybody should judge for him/her-self. --Elekhh (talk) 10:36, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

--Makeemlighter (talk) 22:18, 25 July 2010 (UTC)