Wikipedia:Featured picture candidates/delist/Image:World Map 1689.JPG

World map

 * Reason:During the nomination no one seems to have remarked that there are stitching errors all over the place. Latitude and longitude lines break at a number of points, for example, and text as well (look in the Caribbean for examples of text too). Then there's the lack of an extended caption. I was trying to schedule this for POTD and I had nothing to say beyond, "World map produced in 1689." What's with all the artwork? Is there any significance to it? Who is Van Schagen? To top it all off, there's no source listed beyond "Scanned copy". Was it published in a book? Does the uploader have a physical copy of it? What's the deal?
 * Nominator:  howcheng  {chat}
 * UPDATE: The Commons uploader supplied the source. And I did some due diligence (aka Google search) to find some more information about the map. Found (in Dutch),  which gives us some info about the mapmaker (including his first name, Gerard), and a JSTOR article  which is only available to members. So that's a little more context, but to me, the stitching errors are still unforgivable.  howcheng   {chat} 16:36, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I'll give the sources a read tomorrow (I might be able to access the JSTOR one then too). - Mgm|(talk) 10:08, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

"A world map is a map of the surface of the Earth, which may be made using any of a number of different map projections. Maps of the world are often either 'political' or 'physical'. The most important purpose of the political map is to show territorial borders; the purpose of the physical map is to show features of geography such as mountains, soil type or land use. Geological maps show not only the physical surface, but characteristics of the underlying rock, fault lines, and subsurface structures."Bewareofdog 23:38, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Delist &mdash;  howcheng  {chat} 17:26, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Delist as per nom, specifically lack of source info. 72.142.233.98 23:48, 7 June 2007 (Forgot to sign in: Matt Deres 23:49, 7 June 2007 (UTC)) (UTC)
 * Delist per nom. The stitching errors might be overlook-able, but the lack of information is not.--HereToHelp 15:15, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep Why dont you put this as the caption
 * The problem with this is that it doesn't talk about the image itself. I used to write captions like this when I first started doing the POTD last year and I got a lot of complaints about them. People want to know about the specific images, not about the article that the image can be found in.  howcheng  {chat} 00:13, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

So people want to know more about an image amd not the article it is in?Bewareofdog 20:36, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Exactly. That's one of the reasons we have criterion 8. If we don't know anything about the image, how can we know that it's encyclopedic? If you're going to point to POTD blurbs about animals and people portraits that don't discuss the specific image, don't bother -- for those, there usually isn't much more to say than, "A male doohickey bird", but when I can say something specific about the image, I do. In this case, if I go with this caption, I guarantee you people will complain.  howcheng  {chat} 20:59, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Can't you at least try ?Bewareofdog 01:22, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I did. When I couldn't come up with anything that worked well, I brought it here and even did some research that was sorely lacking. Mgm is going to see what else he can find in the Dutch source page I found as well as in the JSTOR article. But still, how did nobody notice the glaring stitching errors in the file? Those by themselves should be enough to delist this.  howcheng  {chat} 02:29, 13 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Comment. The image is indeed encyclopedic, and it must be able to fix these errors (any defects also appearing on the original image should not be changed), and technical errors on maps from this time are common. The map is interesting in so far as it shows several geographical misconceptions that were only corrected later: It shows southern Greenland and California as islands (neither of them are). The Californian example is well known from other maps, so the misconception must have been widespread. It shows a region of Canada as "Nova Dania" (New Denmark) a name I've never seen before although I'm both Danish and a history student. However, the name makes perfect sense as a Dano-Norwegian explorer around 1620, en:Jens Munk, led an expedition that tried to find a sea way to Asia but never made it further than the great bays of Canada. I just checked the English Wikipedia's article about him and it does indeed refer to him naming a territory "New Denmark". It also features the first names for Australia and Tasmania: respectively "New Holland" and "Van Diemen's Land". The lack of detail to some regions (e.g. Alaska and the Canadian North West) illustrate the imperfect European knowledge of the world during the Age of Englightenment. It also illustrates that the cartographer recognized that the Earth is round. Two isolated islands near the Equator are also interesting, as they could be an indication that Hawaii was known in Europe before the arrival of James Cook. The crown worn by Poseidon on the top left part of the image is an illustration of the heraldic concept of an "antique crown" which e.g. features in a few prominent coats of arms in Danish heraldry. It is also interesting how relatively accurate it is. Just a few noteworthy details that off the top of my head. Valentinian T / C 20:15, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
 * All of what you say may be true, but it's all original research by you. Cite references about this map or this mapmaker and what he knew or didn't know and the encyclopedicness goes way way up. Without references, it's all conjecture.  howcheng  {chat} 21:02, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Your post seems to be so far from WP:AGF, that I don't see any reason to contribute further to this thread, since I don't jump through hoops just to amuse others. All of this can be picked up quite readily from any half-decent book on the history of geography, and should be basic knowledge by any would-be student of history or geography. But here are a few hints just for the fun of it. Jens Munk: the Danish title of the book is "Efterretning af Navigationen og Reisen til det Nye Danmark af Styrmand Jens Munk" which means "Recollection of the Navigation and Travel to the New Denmark by Pilot Jens Munk". California: here is one tiny link, just for the amusement of it: . You might also be interested in Island of California, Van Diemen's Land, and New Holland (Australia) which also seem appropriate, and the details about Australia are common knowledge in any decent book about the history of that country. The cartographer here might be completely irrelvant, but the thing the map shows aren't. If you can find another 17th century world map of a similar quality, be my guest. Valentinian T / C 21:20, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
 * AGF directs me to assume that you are working towards betterment of the encyclopedia, which I believe you are doing, and I certainly didn't mean any offense, so please accept my apologies for not being clearer with my words. However, FPs are about the images and what they represent and how they are used in the articles. As it stands, this image isn't being used beyond an example of a world map from 1689. Being a Californian, I am well aware of the Island of California misconception, but you stated, "the misconception must have been widespread," which is conjecture. Similarly, you said two islands in the Pacific "could be an indication that Hawaii was known in Europe" -- again, conjecture. The "antique crown" concept -- how common was this? Is this included in many of Van Schagen's maps? These kinds of details are vital to determining the encyclopedicness of the map. I think accuracy and verifiability are Good Things, and I don't understand why anyone is opposed to my insisting on this information.  howcheng  {chat} 21:41, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


 * In that case, we might have gotten our wires crossed. Apology accepted. The "island of California" is a very famous blunder in the history of cartography, for the singular reason that it lasted so long. The article about this misconception dates the blunder to c. 1510, the error was widespread for c. 200 years, and this map is a good illustration of it. The other maps on Island of California aren't bad either, but this map shows an entire world view, rather than a "local map". I have no information about the Ancient Crown in other works of this artist, as I don't know him, but the version of the crown shown here is not a bad image. Why European heraldists believed that crowns had looked this way a millennium earlier is beyond me, but it can also be seen in the British tradition of heraldry. See e.g. here. What characterises this shape is the rays and the absence of any pearls or precious stones. There is another definition of it here. On the other hand, I'll probably just pick a coat of arms of one of the three historical illegitimate branches of the Danish royal family (Danneskiold-Samsøe, Danneskiold-Laurvigen and Danneskiold-Løvendal) should I need an illustration for this symbol, as the crown features in all three insignia. The Hawaii observation is merely the impression this map gives me, but the History of Hawaii page mentions that indications for an early Spanish visit to Hawaii exist, although the first thoroughly documented European visit to the islands is James Cook in the 1770s. The latter event is well described since Cook was killed there. The page here gives a little more information about this debate. I don't consider it much conjecture to notice that this map has two islands in roughly the right place, and that the map is relatively accurate in other areas. Regarding Munk, this Danish page agrees with the positioning of Dania Nova, and I'll probably do a crop of this image for an illustration of this region. But again, if you can find a better-quality map of the world according to a 17th century European, feel free. Valentinian T / C 23:12, 21 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Keep Don't see what information about the source has to do with this been a FP. The map illustrates the geographic knowledge people of the time pocessed. As per Valentinia, a caption pointing out errors/accuracies could be derived from countless other sources. -- snowolf D4  (  talk  /  @   ) 08:23, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Commons:Commons:Featured pictures is where you find pretty pictures. Featured pictures should be great pictures which have encyclopedic use. Featured picture criteria #8 states that an image requires an extended caption; cite some sources that provide information about this map or Van Schagen's maps in general and we can call this whole thing off.  howcheng  {chat} 19:00, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep Tomer T 12:51, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

(no conensus). --Peter 21:03, 28 July 2007 (UTC)