Wikipedia:Files for discussion/2024 July 14

 &lt; July 13 July 15 &gt;

File:Shooting of Donald Trump.webp

 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more files. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the file's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the discussion was: Keep the image for Trump raised-fist photographs but remove from Attempted assassination of Donald Trump article.

As with most Trump related RFCs lately, this had significant participation from editors, including many new accounts. Please note that consensus on Wikipedia is not a majority vote. Of the ~200 !votes in the discussion, many wanted to Keep but did not elaborate why/preferred based on political reasons/had other reasons not based on Wikipedia policies. Those were discarded at large; still, more editors preferred keeping than deletion.

The primary policy here was Image use policy and Non-free content criteria. Wikipedia has strict guidelines for fair use and all 10 points of NFCC should be met, even if the legal requirements are otherwise followed. In particular, NFCC#1 (No free equivalent), NFCC#2 (Respect for commercial opportunities) and NFCC#8 (Contextual significance) were most heavily argued.

Many editors pointed out that NFCC would not be met for Attempted assassination of Donald Trump, as free alternatives may exist. Multiple editors preferred keeping the image but only for its own article, per NFCC#8. Since the discussion started, Trump raised fist photographs was made (and kept in AFD), for which NFCC#1 would also be true. Multiple !votes were later changed to that effect.

As such, the image now meets all criteria for being kept, but only for the photographs article. There is consensus against also using it in the main article.

Soni (talk) 15:32, 20 July 2024 (UTC)


 * File:Shooting of Donald Trump.webp ([ delete] | talk | [ history] | links | [ logs]) &#x20;– uploaded by Bremps ( [ notify] | contribs | uploads | upload log).

Note to newcomers: This discussion centers around whether this image aligns with the Wikipedia's WP:Image use policy, with particular focus on the WP:Non-free content criteria, or NFCC. This image is a copyrighted work of Evan Vucci, who has not licensed the work under a free license. It is legally prohibited to redistribute this file without the author's permission. NFCC sets out a criteria for how these copyrighted works can be used in Wikipedia, under the US doctrine of fair use, which allows copyrighted works to be redistributed without permission in some contexts. This is not a discussion on how significant or iconic the photo is, but rather how it satisfies NFCC. Comments unsupported by policy will be given less weight by the closer of this discussion. Ca talk to me!  11:19, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

Update: the nomination statement is now outdated. The article Trump raised fist photographs now exists, albeit currently nominated for deletion (the article was kept), as well as a section in the main article:. Ca talk to me!  02:22, 15 July 2024 (UTC) Updated 16:07, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

Unfortunately I don't think that this file can be justified as fair use. The photo is not strictly necessary to understand the subject of the article, and the photo itself is never discussed in the article. If the article were about the photograph itself it would be justifiable, but this is not the case. Di (they-them) (talk) 00:32, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep the image very clearly articulates information clear than any word can. It also adequately summarizes the events of the shooting, with the bloody trump being whisked away. The subject of the image, the assassination attempt against trump, is the entire subject of the article. Scu ba (talk) 00:34, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I also think the image must be kept. Just as the image of the JFK assassination of the limousine speeding away from dealy plaza. These are important historical images,that MUST BE shared worldwide. IMO this image should be available for educational and research purposes to anyone, who needs it 95.87.241.233 (talk) 10:50, 18 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Non-free historic image usually requires sourced commentary on the image itself, not what it illustrates. WP:UUI#7. —Cryptic 00:35, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Delete I think this image will be in the public domain in the future like those used in Attempted assassination of Ronald Reagan. However, it is not as of now.
 * As aside, I implore Evan Vucci to release the photo into the Donald J. Trump Presidential Library. ReidLark1n (talk) 15:44, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Delete Showing Evan Vucci's copyrighted image in a cropped and low-resolution format does not satisfy WP:NFCC because the original image's market role is replaced by any unlicensed edit that still retains the photographer's unique capture of Trump's bloodied face in front of the US flag. BluePenguin18 🐧  ( 💬 ) 00:38, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * AP is government funded, he is apart of AP Gonzafer001 (talk) 06:02, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * AP is not a government organization. They are a not-for-profit organization.  That means that the public domain exemption does not apply.  --Super Goku V (talk) 07:10, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I think you need to explain this further BluePenguin18. I personally feel that WP:NFCC is hardly intelligible as written. I'm not disagreeing with you but I think your point is the linchpin of why this should be deleted so it needs to be fleshed out more. ReidLark1n (talk) 15:38, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * As the above banner notes, the early comments (mine included) have become outdated because the photo has been repurposed for legitimate commentary purposes, as opposed to simply illustrating the event's article. I am conflicted as to whether Trump raised fist photographs actually satisfies the WP:10YEARTEST, but it has survived a nomination for deletion with overwhelming support, so if that commentary article is staying up, then the image seems satisfactory under the NFCC. BluePenguin18 🐧  ( 💬 ) 17:23, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep, a historical image. This is similar to Raising the Flag on Iwo Jima and Raising the Flag at Ground Zero. LuxembourgLover (talk) 00:39, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * There's a fundamental difference in the situations. Those "raising the flag" pages are about the photographs in question, so the photographs are necessary to better understand the article. There is no page about "Evan Vucci's photograph of Donald Trump". Di (they-them) (talk) 00:44, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Actually, there is.  The C of E God Save the King!  ( talk ) 08:14, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * We have articles for Barack Obama "Hope" poster, I think this picture could get it's own article. its one of the clearest pictures of an assassination attempt aftermath. LuxembourgLover (talk) 16:26, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * This is a wholly fanciful argument that does not jibe with WP:NFCC. It is beyond laughable to think you can declare something "historical" mere hours after the fact. Zaathras (talk) 00:45, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * The'fact' is you used jibe in a statement about the perceived lack of something 'historical' in the attempted assassination of a world leader. 174.29.184.14 (talk) 18:40, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * "Former world leader" current felon. 199.168.95.151 (talk) 09:42, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Neither of these examples are compelling. The former is in the public domain and the latter is only used in articles discussing the photo itself, rather than the articles on the September 11 attacks or New York City's recovery. BluePenguin18 🐧  ( 💬 ) 00:46, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * It's definitely a historical image. This was the first assassination attempt on an American president in over 40 years. You might not consider it history because it happened a couple of hours ago, but everything was "mere hours" ago at some point. USA1855 (talk) 01:01, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * the first assassination attempt on an American president in over 40 years. There have been over 20 in 40 years. Hyperbole is not a reason to keep a non-free image. Zaathras (talk) 01:06, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * His argument is indeed flawed in its wording, but, @Zaathras, I do want to hear when (at least) two people were killed and when something actually hit a President. Please do cite when something other than a plot happened. Not an actual attempt. Something actually serious, like this. BarntToust (talk) 01:25, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * How would that contribute to discussing if the image is fair use or not. (If you want the list, read List of United States presidential assassination attempts and plots.)  --Super Goku V (talk) 07:13, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I agree completely. It is ludicrous to think that this iconic and historical image should be deleted. Wikipedia would become a laughingstock. This image is shared millions of times all over the world. There is no way to stop. Brianahier (talk) 11:23, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Yeah I think opposition comes more from historical biases rather then anything else.
 * The presidencies are defining history, and campaigns are the things that decide presidencies. For example something as seemingly insignificant as Dean scream has its own dedicated Wikipedia article. Why? Because it tanked him in the polls and deprived him of shot at presidency possibly changing course of history, and without a doubt changing power balance in DNC.
 * This photo will be signifier of a moment in which potential next president escaped with his life. It is historic, and even more if Trump wins presidency. People want it deleted, not because it is not, but because of personal antipathy. It makes him look really good with fist in the air, triumphantly standing after surviving assassination attempt by inches. Moderators want it deleted to not promote positive image of Trump in eyes of potential readers, not because lack of educational value. 2A02:A319:20A9:6E00:4D35:1D80:CF18:22E6 (talk) 14:52, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * If you actually read what people are actually saying, they want it deleted because it violates our strict policy on Fair Use images, not anything against Trump. See WP:NFCC. TheWikiToby (talk) 23:41, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia is already a laughing stock. Also the author of this proposal has pronouns on its page. I think it's pretty obvious what's going on here. 178.222.30.152 (talk) 07:47, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Now that's a big brain thought "user has pronouns, ergo their opinion is invalid". 199.168.95.151 (talk) 09:44, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * That's not what I said. I was implying it's a politically motivated proposal. People can have different political opinions, and that's entirely valid. The problem is that these political opinions are influencing a discussion that they shouldn't in this case, since the conversation is presented as one about copyright concerns. I'm arguing that it's falsely presented as such. That is of course my speculation, but I doubt I'm alone in speculating that someone with pronouns will have a problem with a photograph that makes Trump look good. Hope that clears up my thinking there. 178.222.8.107 (talk) 13:17, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Delete - find a similar image that does not violate WP:NFCC as well as the copyright of the photographer who owns the image and deserves to have his rights protected. ProfessorKaiFlai (talk) 02:53, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep. Is there another photo that has been as widely used in the reporting of the event? If not then it can't be replaced. Helpingtoclarify (talk) 03:23, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep the image. According to Section 107, fair use covers "...purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research".  This is clearly news reporting.  The article mentions that Trump pumped his first in the air and the photo complements this by showing a visual image of that action.  Also if the use here is for a non-commercial, educational purpose, this should be fair use. 2601:248:5283:F2E0:B194:7890:66B6:DEA6 (talk) 03:41, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the input; While Fair Use legally might cover Wikipedia, our policies are actually much more strict than usual. See WP:FAIRUSE.
 * The stated mission of the Wikimedia Foundation, which supports Wikipedia servers and software, is "to empower and engage people around the world to collect and develop educational content under a free license or in the public domain, and to disseminate it effectively and globally." [...] Being generous to the world sometimes means being hard on ourselves. Please understand that these rules are not arbitrary; they are central to our mission. TheWikiToby (talk) 03:51, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * By "more strict than usual". You mean "have higher standards than most Internet sources for information." Right?
 * Also, I don't see how the use of this image isn't empowering knowledge.
 * If it is Fair Use, by the standards you read off to us, it is fair game. Since, it is used in an educational way.
 * I haven't read the Source you provided though. My apologies if the bulk of your argument is there. But your main argument/evidence should be here so we don't have to click away or lose our progress commenting by checking it out.
 * HelloHamburger (talk) 07:19, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Probably might not have made it clear enough, but the text is taken from WP:FAIRUSE. Also, I'm not entirely sure how my "main argument/evidence should be here so we don't have to click away or lose our progress commenting by checking it out" since I took the quote directly from WP:FAIRUSE. How else am I supposed to do it? TheWikiToby (talk) 16:18, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Delete: It's a copyrighted image that isn't needed to understand the article, plain and simple. It's nicely framed shot, but it isn't required for the understanding of the article. The blood is barely even visible and it doesn't even display the actual shooting. There is no reason to infringe upon the rights of the photographer in this sense.  ULPS ( talk •  contribs ) 05:48, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I concurProfessorKaiFlai (talk) 00:15, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I agree wholeheartedly. There does not seem to be any justification for why this image needs to be included without the copyright holder’s consent. Zorra31P (talk) 05:49, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I concur ProfessorKaiFlai (talk) 00:15, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep: Per @LuxembourgLover. This iconic photo regards not just a famous politician but a former US president and current re-election candidate. GreatLeader1945  TALK  11:38, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * A photo being iconic is not a valid reason to keep it per WP:NFCC. Is it cool looking? Sure, but it doesn't aid any understanding about the assasination attempt, the article subject. If the article was about the photo itself, sure. But it's not.  ULPS ( talk •  contribs ) 12:41, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * @ULPS Wrong. Again, read carefully the arguments made by the aforementioned user. GreatLeader1945  TALK  21:22, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Except the assassination page isn't about the photograph. Considering there is now a page about the photograph itself, I'm fine keeping it for use on that page, because it is obviously needed there. Not needed on the attempted assassination page IMO.  ULPS ( talk •  contribs ) 21:26, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom. Dennis C. Abrams (talk) 13:11, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep. WP:NFCC #2 is clearly met, since a cropped low-res version is not going to infringe on Vucci's commercial interests in any way whatsoever. No company that would otherwise have bought the rights to the image from Vucci is going to instead opt for the little 280x280 one we have here. MrThe1And0nly (talk) 14:08, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * WP:NFCC2 deals with minimizing Wikipedia's unauthorized use, not minimizing additional unauthorized use by third-parties copying from Wikipedia, which we already pursue by not hosting such content on Wikimedia Commons. While it is true that Wikipedia never pays to license content, NFCC #2 deals with whether our use conflicts with the original work's commercial use BluePenguin18 🐧  ( 💬 ) 17:33, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep. This photo is already iconic, it's the most widely viewed image of the event across social media and the news. It seems a near certainty it will win the Pulitzer prize given the significance of the event, the image of Trump showing a gunshot wound, raising his fist in defiance, mouth open shouting, surrounded by secret service, with the American flag in the background. This photograph was used across the media, including the front cover of TIME magazine. 31.205.7.56 (talk) 15:26, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep The photo easily passes NFCC. There are no free versions that could be substituted. Speculation that one might exist in the future is irrelevant. Wait until there is one. The photo is central to the event, and should be the first one. It conveys what words cannot. It does not negatively impact the photographers commercial interests. Amthisguy (talk) 17:05, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep, only for Trump raised-fist photographs article, non free use is justifiable there because of the media coverage, and image-related article. Mhatopzz (talk) 17:50, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep. This is an extremely important photo. It puts a vidid and descriptive image to a key detail about the event: the immediate reaction of Trump to being shot in the ear. This is THE photo that all major RS including NYT and CNN used in their reporting of the event as well. The arguments that the photo is not about the event itself are self-evidently false and nonsensical. I probably don't need to illustrate how ridiculous it would be to take that to its logical conclusion. Sysiphis (talk) 18:53, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Delete -  water?(talk | contribs)
 *   water?(talk | contribs) 04:17, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep: Falls under fair use as being needed for a subject of teaching/education/research, which are primary purposes of Wikipedia. natemup (talk) 15:27, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Yes, I'm sure a "they/them" has no vested interest in removing a photograph showing Trump in a positive light. It's THE photo of the event. Anyone who says it should be deleted is doing so for purely political reasons. 2A00:23C8:1F04:3801:EC6A:575C:8C45:A5FE (talk) 21:24, 19 July 2024 (UTC)


 * I agree, I feel like people are biased against trump and are just claiming Non-free content, I mean the picture has its own article. Trump raised fist photographs. I still think this is like Raising the Flag on Iwo Jima or Raising the Flag at Ground Zero, it’s a powerful moment weather you like him or not.
 * I don’t love trump, I don’t hate trump, but this is a historic picture. LuxembourgLover (talk) 00:31, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * When the nomination was made the article did not exist and there was nothing in any article about this photo. Ca talk to me!  02:17, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Yes, but the problem is that, it will be difficult to illustrate articles related to either this photo or this particular event. Why can't Wikipedia wait a little longer to use copyright free images that I believe will be available soon? Mhatopzz (talk) 03:36, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep per LuxembourgLover (Discuss 0nshore's contributions!!!) 00:41, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep. Well-justified in its description (no low-resolution free-use images of this event exist) and the image captures the unparalleled significance of the moment very fittingly for the article. The image from the murder of Lee Harvey Oswald comes to mind as a good analogy -- alternatives may exist, but the historic angle and context of that one image is undeniable. HandIsNotNookls (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 00:41, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * HandIsNotNookls: (That image is actually in the public domain for failure to renew, but I agree with your general point.) TE(æ)A,ea. (talk) 00:42, 14 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Keep. This image is more historically important than many of the other images I see listed with "Non-free historic image". In addition, the spontaneous reaction was not staged, so the photographer has very little copyright interest in the photograph. TE(æ)A,ea. (talk) 00:41, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * First, the existence of other copyright violations is not an argument for further wrongdoing. It is an impetus to propose deletion of those rule-breakers. Second, photographers are not denied a copyright interest in their creations simply because the results were spontaneous. BluePenguin18 🐧  ( 💬 ) 00:49, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * BluePenguin18 🐧 : No, I think those are justified; it is just that this is more justified than those cases. I presume you haven't read the law? Photography, at its course, is mechanical, not creative; so, for a photograph to be copyrighted, some creative work—known as "authorship"—must occur before the photograph is taken. The main appeal of this photograph—most of what strikes the viewer as copyrightable—owes its origin not to the photographer's choices of angle, camera settings, &c., but to the staging of the rally podium and Trump's action in raising his fist. TE(æ)A,ea. (talk) 01:05, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Speaking as a law student, this is incorrect. This image qualifies for copyright protection because it is fixed to the medium of a photograph, authored by the human Evan Vucci, is in a copyrightable subject matter of a pictoral work, and showcases originality in its presentation (US Copyright Office). Accepting that the image is under copyright, US law makes no free use exception on the basis that the work's main appeal was not purposeful by its creator. BluePenguin18 🐧  ( 💬 ) 01:15, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * BluePenguin18 🐧 : You have misunderstood my statement. You have also not explained the basis of your belief that the work has copyrightable subject matter, or the extent of that protection. That is what my response was addressing. As to that hyper-link, I have already read it, and have read more particularly court cases which address the topic. My comment on "appeal" was directed to originality—much of what could be identified as "original" in the image, its "appeal," does not originate in the photographer's creative processes and cannot thereby be attributed to him through the copyright law.~ TE(æ)A,ea. (talk) 02:01, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * That US Copyright Office document links to a glossary noting that Star Athletica v. Varsity Brands, 137 S. Ct. 1002 (2017) recognized that photographs qualify as a copyrightable subject matter. If you are truly aware of any court cases that limit copyright protection on the basis that the work's main appeal was not purposeful by its creator, please cite them. BluePenguin18 🐧  ( 💬 ) 02:10, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Delete, the image seems to have potential for commercial use & can easily be replaced by a CC image (once one is taken/found). The photograph may be historically relevant, but fair use on Wikipedia seems to be a bit of a stretch. Jan-Janko (talk) 00:42, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Changing my vote to Keep as a new page was created about the photograph(s). jan Janko  ( talk ) 17:56, 15 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Keep. This is the most notable image and is shown throughout the media (or different variations of Trump raising his fist) so it is most informative to readers and the most relevant image to display in the infobox. Bill Williams 00:44, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Being notable and relevant is not the same as being justified under NFCC. Di (they-them) (talk) 00:45, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * "or different variations of Trump raising his fist" – so it's highly likely that a free alternative exists or could be created (WP:NFCC #1). Adabow (talk) 00:57, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Delete One does not need to see an image like this (that is now being used to show "he's a tough guy" on social media) to understand the subject matter. Non-free media of various kinds can be used instead, or something may be released down the road Zaathras (talk) 00:45, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I do have to ask, in the context of a shooting, is a strong-looking image bad or unnecessary? No. Also, I'm sure analysis of the image probably will happen, but "they are using it" isn't a good argument imo. BarntToust (talk) 01:12, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * What "non-free media"? Marcus Markup (talk) 01:25, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * This is essentially the image of the event. If I were asked to choose an image to summarize the event, I'd choose this. It doesn't matter what some people on social media are using it for. This image certainly does help in understanding the event. It shows Trump's shot ear and him being escorted. Coulomb1 (talk) 04:56, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * You are showing clear bias and it's pretty obvious you want the picture removed because of the effect that you perceive it having in the public - an effect you clearly do not like. The picture should stay because of its historical significance, regardless of how you feel about it or the ways you think someone on social media might be using it. I don't even see how that's relevant or why you even mentioned it, other than to demonstrate your bias. 178.222.30.152 (talk) 10:54, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Thank you. Exactly 24.228.50.143 (talk) 20:19, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Yeah - exactly what I've spoken of in previous comment. Zathraas wants it deleted, because it shows image of Trump as a 'though guy' rather then lack of educational substance. Disingenuous reasoning, that should be dismissed. 2A02:A319:20A9:6E00:4D35:1D80:CF18:22E6 (talk) 14:55, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Delete: It's an amazing photograph, artistically speaking (and kudos to the photographer), but it's still Evan Vucci's copyrighted image. As such, unless we can get a better, non-copyrighted image, I don't think we can keep it, per BluePenguin18 and Di. Better to not have a photograph. &mdash; Javert2113 (Siarad.&#124;&#164;) 00:45, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Delete Fails #1 in that a free image depicting the event could easily be made available at any point soon. Fails #2 in that it's clearly a popular image of a current event and the wire photographer will be selling it to newspapers around the world for Sunday/Monday papers. Fails #5 and #8 in not adding to encyclopedic understanding of the event as of present. Also fails #8 if the premise is that it's an historic image: the event happened like two hours ago and we can't be certain what happened. Significance cannot possibly have been established. Kingsif (talk) 00:45, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep with caveats Now that we have Trump raised fist photographs, I am satisfied #1 is met insofar as this photo is the main photo that is the topic of its own article. If that article exists, then #5 and #8 are also met by default, and I believe these are linked with the notability of that new article; if that article exists, those crit are met, and if the article gets deleted, the image will be, too. As for #2, we are now seeing the photograph drop out of the news cycle, and +24 hours later, can expect that it will have been sold to every outlet that wants it, who will reuse their licensed copies. However, I am still not satisfied that #1 and #8 are met for use at article Attempted assassination of Donald Trump, and so the photo should not be used there. I am also not currently satisfied with #10 for use at Trump raised fist photographs, but these caveats can be addressed by the uploader 1. this cropped version is obviously not representative of the full photo that is the subject of the article. A low-res version of the full original would need to be the file photo. 2. I am, like Cryptic, not convinced that the original publication location was Business Insider. AP likely put it in their stock library first but, failing a definitive "original publication", it is reasonable to use author publication of their own work as "immediate source" by itself: Vucci's Twitter/X post with the photo could be used for this. Kingsif (talk) 01:55, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * ...Attempted assassination of Donald Trump, and so the photo should not be used there. As long as editors fill out the "Non-free media rationale" for the image, I don't see why not (and I do believe the image meets #1 and #8 for the attempted assassination article). See File:Will Smith slaps Chris Rock.jpg for example, a non-free image that is being used on both the main article Chris Rock–Will Smith slapping incident and the secondary article 94th Academy Awards. Some1 (talk) 02:21, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Because the main discussion of the photograph in itself is at the Trump raised fist photographs article; if there is condensed discussion of the photograph as a photo at the Attempted assassination of Donald Trump article, it should be linking to the Trump raised fist photographs article and the visual representation does not need to be duplicated. See, for example, List of photographs considered the most important, where most/all of those photographs have a case for encyclopedic importance and include some encyclopedic discussion, but the photos themselves are not included if they are not free. There's either an external link or a link to the article for the photo. The Chris Rock/Will Smith example is not a comparison and frankly I do not think it meets NFCC for either article it features in: the photo there is not being discussed as a work of photography, but is used as visual representation of an event. IMHO it definitely shouldn't be in the 94th Academy Awards article, and there could be debate over whether an image is needed/the best way in the Chris Rock–Will Smith slapping incident, or if, e.g. an external link to a video clip would better serve the reader. Kingsif (talk) 03:56, 16 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Comment Vucci is a photographer at AP, so the image is not acceptable as fair use as a press agency photograph  unless the photo itself is the subject of sourced commentary in the article, as noted at Non-free content. Hemiauchenia (talk) 00:46, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * That actually makes it a speedy - WP:F7b. I'm not about to be the admin to push the button, though. —Cryptic 01:02, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Speedy delete. WP:NFCC EDIT: I change my vote, considering there is an article about it. KEEP  — 48JCL 00:53, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * ...that might have merits for use? Not seeing any complex argument from 48JCL here. BarntToust (talk) 02:33, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep. President Trump lives! KEMBMB61 (talk) 02:52, 14 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Delete per arguments above - it's too soon to be sure that free media will not be available, and I don't think the photo is strictly necessary to significantly increase understanding about the topic. As such, fair use shouldn't be claimed. Gazamp (talk) 00:55, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Delete - copyrighted image, political propaganda. LucasR muteacc (talk) 00:56, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Propaganda implies bias. There is no inherent bias in a picture caught in the moment. 68.201.235.85 (talk) 08:36, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Exactly. A photo, by itself, cannot be "propaganda".  It is how a thing is USED that makes it "propaganda".  So much WP:IDONTLIKEIT going on in this FFD. Marcus Markup (talk) 20:47, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I don't exactly understand how an image that could be considered to be propaganda is a policy based decision to delete it. TheWikiToby (talk) 23:46, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * You are awfully biased here trying to claim it a propaganda SIridiuM28 (talk) 04:14, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep. This seems to me like a unique photo of a historic event, which happened over the course of a couple minutes, and of which it is now permanently possible to find a replacement photo. Like, how are we supposed to go take a freely licensed replacement photo of an assassination attempt, send a second assassin? I have looked over WP:NFCC and I don't really see anything to indicate this is an unacceptable piccy. If there really is something in there specifically proscribing this, let me know and I will change to delete, but for now I am in favor of keeping it. jp×<b style="color: #029D74">g</b>🗯️</b> 00:56, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Noting that the article now says: An image of a bloodied Trump pumping his fist in the air taken by Evan Gucci of the Associated Press was spread on social media shortly afterwards. Nico Hines of The Daily Beast called it "one of the most iconic photos in American history". Another image, as reported by Axios, taken by Anna Moneymaker, was spread by his prominent political allies as a rallying symbol."
 * This seems pretty straightforwardly within the remit of WP:NFCC. <b style="font-family: monospace; color:#E35BD8"><b style="color:#029D74">jp</b>×<b style="color: #029D74">g</b>🗯️</b> 02:06, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * For which image? The Gucci one or the Moneymaker one? The Daily Beast has a different angle captured by Brendan McDermid. I think it's far too early to tell which, if any, of these are historic enough to meet WP:NFC. Adabow (talk) 02:10, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Perhaps if we were using it by that commentary. That does not, however, justify its current use as an infobox image. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 07:33, 14 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Delete There were tens of thousands of people at the rally, so it is possible, even likely, that a free equivalent exists or could be created (fails NFCC 1). A very recent event and us hosting this doesn't respect the commercial value of the image (fails NFCC 2). I also don't think it meets NFCC 8 (contextual significance) in the way that it's currently being used (infobox, describing Secret Service escorting Trump away). Adabow (talk) 00:57, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Delete copyrighted image at event with many attendees, likely another acceptable photo of the event will be uploaded to commons in the near future. LegalSmeagolian (talk) 01:00, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep This is a unique photo of a historical event, as recognized by Politico and the The Daily Beast, and the fist in air was highlighted by virtually every media organization, though they didn't specifically mention the photo. Personisinsterest (talk) 01:02, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * CNN used the image as the main one in a gallery article . New York Post included the image in a series of them taken by AP, highlighted in the article.
 * Now recognized by Axios. Personisinsterest (talk) 01:06, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Strong Keep this is a historic image. Please, quit with the "what ifs", we're not just trying to illustrate the article with random photos that happen to maybe be taken, maybe be uploaded feely, maybe exist, probably not be as good as this. This has merit in the sense of being a sort of iconic photo. see Personisinsterest and their argument for it. it's unique. BarntToust (talk) 01:07, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Uniqueness doesn’t establish fair use. If anything, it argues against it, as a unique photo has a larger market value, will will be more impacted by it being illegally hosted on Wikipedia Timtjtim (talk) 16:20, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Picture posted by Don Jr, noted by many orgs. and more. Personisinsterest (talk) 01:10, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Your citations to various news sources reporting on the photo's significance would only justify its use on an article about the photo itself. Under Wikipedia's non-free use policy, this copyrighted image cannot be used simply to illustrate the broader event. BluePenguin18 🐧  ( 💬 ) 01:18, 14 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Keep while only hours after the incident, RS have already described the photo as -at least- very important. Hard to imagine the photo not making headlines globally tomorrow, too. Juxlos (talk) 01:10, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Hard to imagine the photo not making headlines globally tomorrow, too - that's more of a reason to delete. Commercial value of a current image. Can't claim fair use. Kingsif (talk) 01:21, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * That's why we can't host it here without licensing it from the photographer. Nosferattus (talk) 01:28, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep it explains an aftermath of the shots fired. Cwater1 (talk) 01:12, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * This is not a valid argument to keep. We are discussing the fair use of the image. Natg 19 (talk) 01:15, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

— Urro[ talk ] [ edits ] ⋮ 23:35, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Delete per others. Historic is quite a stretch, as this event happened only a few hours ago. Natg 19 (talk) 01:15, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I am going to go out on a limb here and say that, contrariwise, some guy shooting the President of the United States is an exceptionally notable phenomenon that does not in fact happen very often. I mean, I don't know, maybe in 2027 they will start doing it every ten days, and that'll be the new political tradition, but for the last few hundred years this has not been the general practice. <b style="font-family: monospace; color:#E35BD8"><b style="color:#029D74">jp</b>×<b style="color: #029D74">g</b>🗯️</b> 01:51, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * The claim is not that the event is not historic (obviously it is, we have an entire article about it). To meet the criteria for non-free content, the image must not be possible to be replaced by free content - i.e. if the image itself was the topic of an article. Adabow (talk) 01:55, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * The claim that this comment was replying to actually was trying to claim that the event was not historic. 2601:246:CD00:6D0:B97E:F937:AF76:D2B8 (talk) 00:46, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Noting that the article now says: An image of a bloodied Trump pumping his fist in the air taken by Evan Gucci of the Associated Press was spread on social media shortly afterwards. Nico Hines of The Daily Beast called it "one of the most iconic photos in American history". Another image, as reported by Axios, taken by Anna Moneymaker, was spread by his prominent political allies as a rallying symbol." <b style="font-family: monospace; color:#E35BD8"><b style="color:#029D74">jp</b>×<b style="color: #029D74">g</b>🗯️</b> 02:04, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * This actually proves others' points relating to fair use, that there are other photos out there, and thus this individual photo cannot meet NFCC as a unique photo that we must use. Natg 19 (talk) 07:18, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Former POTUS btw, y'all acting like he's currently president are showing your bias. 199.168.95.151 (talk) 09:51, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * and 9/11 happened a few hours ago at some point, when does it become history? when you, o great wizard, deem it so? 65.131.195.155 (talk) 00:45, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Delete A lot of the comments here point out that this is a historically important image. While I don't disagree that it's important, that doesn't mean it satisfies NFCC. However, I don't agree that it's historically significant in such a way that this specific non-free photo must be the true one and only photo we use. As other editors have noted, there are many different photos of the incident (taken at different angles, photographers, etc). The incident is extremely recent, and considering how many attendees there were, it's not implausible to think that a free equivalent may exist. Just because it hasn't turned up ~4 hours(!) after it could have been taken does not mean it doesn't exist outright (NFCC 1). WhoAteMyButter  (🌷talk│🌻contribs) 01:20, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Delete: the image is iconic for sure, but it is not compliant with the fair use. Read the banner: "Use of historic images from press agencies must only be of a transformative nature, when the image itself is the subject of commentary rather than the event it depicts" --RicoRico (talk) 01:22, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Delete - This image has significant commercial value and is not strictly necessary to understand anything discussed in the article, thus it fails to meet fair use rationale. Whether or not it is "historic" is irrelevant. Nosferattus (talk) 01:23, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Just added some text about it. Personisinsterest (talk) 01:39, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Where? I'm not seeing it.  (If it's the one-liner in Evan Vucci's article, that wouldn't be sufficient, even if we were talking about putting the image there instead.) —Cryptic 01:44, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Responses: other. Personisinsterest (talk) 01:47, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * It is actually very relevant.
 * See
 * https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Non-free_historic_image 2A01:4B00:BB07:B300:9E1:8685:3BEA:B71E (talk) 16:29, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Delete per others. – The Sharpest Lives (💬•✏️•ℹ️) (ping me!) 01:26, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Comment It is worth noting that no free images have at this point been released. Personisinsterest (talk) 01:28, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Comment I only support temporary use of the photo until a copyright-free version of it are released or uploaded, then change the image. Mhatopzz (talk) 01:53, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep at least until some other photo emerges that is (1) closer in time to the moment of shooting, (2) generally representative of the situation, and (3) high enough resolution to be of value to the viewer. Please let me know if someone knows of a better photo based on these criteria.
 * If it's not covered under fair use, can't the photographer give permission? 204.237.0.170 (talk) 02:01, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Speedy delete, copyright image that is infringing on photographer's possible opportunities and simple illustrating the article, not being used in an acceptable context. 🌸wasianpower🌸 (talk • contribs) 02:34, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Strongly keep This is the photo of the event. It's already spread like wildfire and describes a lot of what happened. Pickle Mon (talk) 02:47, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Delete It's unclear on the source of the image and it's currentely being used for political uses on twitter, i feel it should be an image right before shots were fired to keep it consistent with other presidential assasination articles and it provides a clearer view NoKNoC (talk) 02:50, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * To not use this image does not make sense as it has high relevance to the actual shooting. It should be kept as is. 2603:3020:1D28:0:A102:898D:4162:35B0 (talk) 03:18, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Strongest keep possible. This is objectively the most notable picture of this event. When people see this, this is the image people think of. If this image gets deleted, it would be a horrible disservice to Wikipedia. Skirjamak (talk) 03:22, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Speedy delete as per wasianpower and especially NATG 19, doesn't add to the article and not historic at all. Maybe a reeval soon?
 * Sharrdx (talk) 03:31, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Delete - per reasons listed above. Just because a photo is notable does not mean we can undermine Wikipedia's adherence to copyright law. It also does nothing to help the reader understand the article better.
 * The diagram in this article showing where the shooter was located is a perfect example of a useful image, albeit not copyrighted. Ayyydoc (talk) 03:32, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep, per above arguments
 * Madeinlondon2023 (talk) 03:34, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep — This image is likely to become one of cultural and/or historical significance. 2603:6081:893A:610B:D4CE:7D69:3DEE:CDAD (talk) 03:37, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep. This image is clearly of great historical significance. It should not be removed or replaced. 2601:602:8C81:C690:D091:DD6D:9C3F:4D8F (talk) 04:17, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep - Image will be generation defining 2600:1700:8528:F60:367D:E8A6:D501:A28F (talk) 04:24, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Strong keep. This is the photo that summarizes the event. If you were to choose a photo to summarize the event, it would be this one. Photos are meant to aid the reader in understanding the article further, and this image very well does this. Coulomb1 (talk) 04:52, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep - This image has been spread everywhere among news articles and social media, and already is and will be to a further extent one of great cultural and historical significance and recognizability. The image itself is subject to commentary as it singlehandedly improved Trump's image and perceived character. KyleSirTalksAlot (talk) 04:57, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Delete, its a cool image but its not fair use MildLoser (talk) 05:17, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Delete per others
 * LittleMAHER1 (talk) 05:40, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Delete Copyrighted image, the image is not the subject matter itself, enough said. If we can find a non-copyrighted image, then use that, if not, no image is necessary.Real tlhingan (talk) 05:55, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep 2600:1700:103C:3410:C815:6813:7DA:9704 (talk) 06:05, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep Iconic and remarkable image of defiance in the face of lethal political violence. Userino (talk) 06:53, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Tentative keep. Supposing that some visual becomes emblematic of this event in the public consciousness, there should absolutely be a corresponding photo present in the article. Of that much I am certain.
 * It seems that the moment this photo captured has become emblematic of the event itself, being featured in numerous articles and publications. Only time can give us absolute certainty, but this is a fair bet to make. As such, if this moment becomes ingrained in our collective psyches as representative of the event, then a free, equivalent photo should absolutely be included in the article if one exists.
 * Should this copyrighted photo itself become the defining photo, then that absolutely justifies its usage. However, only after some time passes will we know with certainty. I withold final judgement until then, and I believe that that should hold true for the rest of us.
 * Until and unless some amount of time has passed and we can clearly see that no, this moment did not in fact come to be emblematic of the event, I think we must absolutely keep either it, or an equivalent, in the article. I think that this is a fair and balanced take on the matter. Hanoi89computerlover (talk) 07:02, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Bold DecafPotato (talk) 07:17, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep This is a historical photo that features Trump's iconic fist symbol after the attack. Similar to the photo of Reagan right before his assassination attempt GodzillamanRor (talk) 07:20, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Delete, at least as currently used. In the infobox, it is not being used to explain discussion of the photo; it is being used for its content rather than for its historicity. There is at least an arguable case of having a small version of it near the discussion of the photo itself, but the infobox is totally outside the flow of the article. All the argument that it illustrates the event well is but-I-like-it argumentation, which does not address the copyright concern. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 07:38, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * This photo is going down in American history, it'll be talked about forever in political science classes and the photographer will probably receive a pulitzer for it..keep! 68.10.108.140 (talk) 08:04, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep Photo looks hard af 49.188.176.117 (talk) 08:19, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep and wait until a satisfactory substitute is found. Doubtful we'd be able to find one though. Ronan.Iroha (talk) 09:27, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I simply have to disagree. The photo shows a scene of the incident, which makes it absolutely justified in my point of view. 2A02:FF0:331C:C3DD:440:A65D:8F78:4267 (talk) 09:32, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 *  Keep
 * This is an image that, according to the "public image of trump" section, does indeed affect the "public image of trump". TheYeetedMeme (talk) 14:46, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep Given the current status of online circulation of this picture, it almost certainly falls under the category of "fair use". Normchou   💬 18:32, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Delete and wait until a CC image becomes available, per previous replies. I will agree as to its artistic/historic merit, though. Jarrod Baniqued (he/him) (talk) 19:12, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep, until we can find a better photo within our usage rights; this iconic image would likely be our best option. Microplastic Consumer (talk) 19:26, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep The photo itself (not just the event it depicts) is important, having been called a "history-changing photo", a "legendary American photograph", "undeniably one of the great compositions in U.S. photographic history" . It deserves its own article. But since for now it doesn't have its own article, and is instead dealt with as a section within Attempted assassination of Donald Trump, the fair use inclusion of the photo also has to be in that article. Note that it is not there to illustrate the assasination attempt, but to illustrate the photo itself as a topic. Angbor (talk) 19:34, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep Satisfies NFCC due to being irreplaceable Aaron Liu  (talk) 23:14, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Delete. However there is a non-zero chance that the photo itself may prove itself deserving of an article, at which point it would be fine to have there. PARAKANYAA (talk) 23:31, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Delete per arguments above (disregarding those mentioning "political bias", as I do not see any merit to these). Await Creative Commons photograph.
 * Keep. This is a historical picture. It is already widely shared around the world, so I don’t know why Wikipedia wouldn’t want to keep it. FaChol (talk) 00:56, 15 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Keep The image is so iconic, its explanatory power is equal to 10 paragraphs. It is very important for the article. Mstf221 (talk) 09:43, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep as the image itself is extensively discussed on the article. This is more subjective, but the article feels incomplete without the picture. Collorizador (talk) 10:36, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep for now per others JSwift49 10:37, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Comment  I believe there could be an ulterior motive behind this proposal, concealed beneath a veil of copyright concern. 178.222.30.152 (talk) 10:46, 14 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Keep - the iconic image adds depth to the article. Very purposeful. TheMovieGuy (talk) 03:48, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

"Delete, WP:F7. (CC) Tb hotch ™ 01:27, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep -- this image is clearly justified under fair use rationale; there is no similar free image. -- Rockstone  Send me a message!  01:32, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Incorrect, they exist. (CC) Tb hotch ™ 01:37, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Where? - Sebbog13 (talk) 02:11, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * "there is no similar free image"—It's too early to say that. There were reported to be 50,000 people attending. WP:NFCC states "Non-free content is used only where no free equivalent is available, or could be created, that would serve the same encyclopedic purpose." It's highly likely that there is another photo of the event which is free or could be made free by the owner. Adabow (talk) 01:37, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Users claiming this is an historic image: the only way this is going to get kept is if somebody adds sourced commentary about the image itself to the article; it wouldn't matter if there were a thousand bolded keeps in a row here. Policy's as unambiguous as it gets on this point. —Cryptic 01:34, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Not a valid reason to keep. (CC) Tb hotch ™ 01:37, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Nevermind, I re-read it. (CC) Tb hotch ™ 01:40, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * It has to be noted, this doesn't just mean commentary about "Trump was photo'd with his fist raised", it would have to be about this exact photo at this point in time, need RS's talking about Evan Vucci's Trump photo. Because it's still eminently possible there's a photographer out there who took one of the many similar images and could release it as Creative Commons. Kingsif (talk) 01:38, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * There’s an entire subsection about this exact photo. Aaron Liu  (talk) 23:16, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Delete this is not covered under fair use Victor Grigas (talk) 01:34, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Delete, reluctantly. While it's probably the best image for this article, it has pretty clear commercial value. Also relevant is that the article isn't about the image itself. The big ugly alien  ( talk ) 01:41, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Comment I don't think WP:F7b applies here; is sourced commentary on the photo itself in the article ("An image of a bloodied Trump pumping his fist in the air taken by Evan Gucci of the Associated Press was spread on social media shortly afterwards"). It's not being used to say much, but that seems to keep it out of speedy territory.  Dylnuge  (Talk • Edits) 01:50, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Yo, got some new commentary in the article on it. Check it out in aftermath, it'll develop BarntToust (talk) 01:54, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * It has to have sourced commentary in our article. Personisinsterest did add a statement to that effect, but it was removed within three minutes.  In any case, it was awfully skimpy, and would at most support putting the image in that section, not in the infobox. —Cryptic 01:55, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Hey, look, Politico and The Daily Beast, they reported on that. Axios showed a similar image too! BarntToust (talk) 02:04, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * The quote in my comment is from our article (or at least what was in it when I made the comment). The article is changing quickly, but it seems relatively stable that the photo is commented on in the article itself and said commentary has been sourced. That strikes me as being ineligible for deletion under F7b, unless I'm missing something. Dylnuge  (Talk • Edits) 02:22, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * It's worth noting that the very first example they give (Rich McCormick tweet) is not this image but a similar one. That illustrates that it's the event that's significant, not this photo. Adabow (talk) 02:04, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep. This clearly falls under fair use as a historical image. Rreagan007 (talk) 01:54, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Delete unless there is an article on this particular photograph, somehow. Bedivere (talk) 02:10, 14 July 2024 (UTC) Keep as the use on the article about the photograph itself is appropriate. Remove from the assassination attempt article. --Bedivere (talk) 05:23, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep Not only is it a historical image, the article now includes commentary about the photo itself. Skyshifter   talk  02:10, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * This is also good commentary. Personisinsterest (talk) 02:12, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Yeah, the is there COMENTARY? argument is being satisfied, so that can no longer be realistically used as a definitive reason against, also, do wait for more commentary, surely more will come. BarntToust (talk) 02:15, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Yes. This meets multiple requirements now: Historic image, no free equivalent, commentary on it Personisinsterest (talk) 02:18, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * The cle notes that a different photo is being used by his allies. Thus, it may be the one that becomes iconic instead. It's simply too early to tell. --  i Zanimum (talk) 02:29, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * No, it shows a different photo but this is the one that is being spread Personisinsterest (talk) 02:32, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * How is leaving out this image detrimental to the understanding of the article, @Skyshifter. Answering that question is critical to this picture being used. Nfitz (talk) 02:33, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Question: Are there any freely licensed photographs of this shooting? The photo of Trump with his fist up is somewhat iconic at the moment, and we could use non-free images if no free ones exist (we can't exactly make free ones exist if they don't, since this event already occurred). But I do wonder: is it truly necessary to use a photo like that here? Is it irreplaceable? — Red-tailed hawk  (nest) 02:18, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * No. Trump's supporters may not even know what a Creative Commons license is. It takes a special kind of not-normal, "nerd" (not used derogatorily, only factually) type of person to understand those things, and the general populous, like most of the attendees, probably doesn't understand those concepts. And only the few in the front rows could be able to take good pics. Don't count on it. BarntToust (talk) 02:31, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Saying "Trump Supporters" instead of "the general public" can be construed as an attack on that group, especially when referring to things they allegedly do not know. Reads like "Those stupid DRUMPFKINS don't know bout the Creative Commons, those rural morons!". Perhaps you could consider better phrasing for your comment, such as "general public", "non-registered users", "non-Wikipedians" etc. WP:Etiquette point 4. 86.180.196.148 (talk) 03:55, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * The user goes on to say "the general populous, like most of the attendees, probably doesn't understand those concepts", and the phrasing used was "Trump's supporters", which is a subtle difference but is a factual descriptor of who was at the event. RadioAlloy (talk) 04:10, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Very specious reasoning to declare that "Trump supporter" is a factual descriptor of all attendees. Can you provide a source that everyone in attendance was a Trump supporter, including all members of the media? Seems a big stretch to suggest that no Independents, Democrats or Undecideds were there. (EDIT: missing word) 86.180.196.148 (talk) 04:17, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry but only trump supporters go to trump rallies. Let's be honest for a second, the man is divisive and the only people that go to his rallies are his die hard supporters. Anyone remotely leaning demo wouldn't be caught dead at a cult meeting.
 * I think it's safe to say all attending as spectators were supporters of Trump. 199.168.95.151 (talk) 09:58, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I don't believe the argument of 'no free image could exist because all the photographers probably don't know about Commons' would satisfy NFCC. WhoAteMyButter  (🌷talk│🌻contribs) 03:00, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * in fact it's just a bad fallacy. Bedivere (talk) 03:30, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I do wonder if the Secret Service has some footage of the event. That would be in the public domain. — Red-tailed hawk  (nest) 03:51, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Probably too busy (poorly) protecting the candidate for that to happen.  Bremps  ...  19:18, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I'm referring to people, not the photographers there in this case.. We needn't rely on potential for someone to decide, "well, I somehow managed to snap a pic in juuuuust the right moment here, let me release it from my ownership forever". It's a big thing, letting people at unrestricted use of a photo.
 * Yeah, I should've referred to the minority of people who are there not for the obvious reason to rally at a rally along with everyone for a catch-all term. It does sound bad when taken out of context. I do have to admit, I really don't trust that most people in a given situation, regardless of political affiliation or any other unrelated aspect of their persons, would be familiar with the process, or even understand commons as a system. It's not an insult to them, it's just not expecting them to be familiar with things that most are not. Or simply be aware of such a system. If that were so and everyone was familiar with Commons, we'd have a new infobox picture of Ryan Reynolds every time he and Blake Lively go out to eat. That is, if someone could get a good pic of him. It's an extended metaphor. It does seem bad when taken the wrong way, but I'd like to assure you that it's really not what I intend. I don't want to expect anything that has many possible roadblocks. BarntToust (talk) 04:31, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Delete: Fails WP:NFCCP. It is impossible to know if there is a non-free equivalent right now. Somebody else could have been close enough to take a picture of Trump, and it is possible that a person may release one under a compatible license in the near future. Also fails #2 because the photographer is certainly seeking to sell this picture. If reliable sources begin to write about this particular image, then it might be appropriate to use the image in the context of that description; per #8 it certainly shouldn't be in the infobox, divorced from that discussion. voorts (talk/contributions) 02:21, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I see the image has been moved below, obviating the concerns about commentary on the image. Howeer, this still fails NFCCP 2, so I am still in favor of deleting. voorts (talk/contributions) 16:36, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep per above. <span style="font-family:Oswald, sans-serif;text-shadow:1px 1px 1px #69b3e7;color:#fd0;"> True CRaysball  | <sup style="color:#041e42;">#RaysUp  02:29, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Speedy Delete - clearly violates image policy. Its way too soon to conclude that there isn't a free alternative. Surely, given this hasn't even been published in newspapers yet, it may be impacting the market value of the image. If used, surely it should be much lower resolution. I don't see how it helps the understanding of the event; there's no context to the blood. How is leaving out this image detrimental to the understanding of the article? Nfitz (talk) 02:31, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Please look at commentary of the image. More surely to come. BarntToust (talk) 02:34, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * None of that is in the infobox so not really rellivant.©Geni (talk) 02:44, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Put the commentary in the infobox. WP:BEBOLD BarntToust (talk) 02:48, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * In that case the image needs to be moved out of the infobox and to the relevant section of the article. There's no rationale for it being in the infobox. 🌸wasianpower🌸 (talk • contribs) 02:45, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * | The New Yorker, | Politico, | The Daily Beast have specifically reported thoroughly on the photo now. Dare I say a criteria for keeping has been fulfilled, and a reason for deletion is gone? BarntToust (talk) 02:47, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Nope. Still an AP image primarily being used to illustrate the event rather than being used for commentary on the image.©Geni (talk) 02:49, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Read the commentary, please. It's there, making the image relevant. Maybe put photo down there? Put commentary summary of it up there? BarntToust (talk) 02:51, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Delete, this is some photographer's greatest work of their life, and not to be used without compensation. This is not a blurry album cover type of fair use. Abductive  (reasoning) 02:46, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * What? Okay, that is your opinion and not very relevant to its purpose, which has been defined above. Please keep such out of rationale for deletion. BarntToust (talk) 02:50, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * The 4th pillar of fair use is "the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work." so very relevant.©Geni (talk) 02:53, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * The non-free use rationale relies on the image being cropped and low-resolution, but Abductive is emphasizing that this image has a high commercial value that is infringed by Wikipedia's unlicensed usage. The "purpose" of using this image to illustrate the event is insufficient because the article successfully explains the event without relying on the photo. Even the newly added commentary on politicians posting raised fist images is an insufficient justification because some are posting photos other than Vucci's, so we do not need to infringe on this specific image to illustrate that commentary either. BluePenguin18 🐧  ( 💬 ) 02:59, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * This logic could be used to delete the Tank Man photo or the painting Guernica. Not saying that you do support that position, but following that chain of logic would lead to that sort of thing.  Bremps  ...  03:12, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * The difference is that those images are used on pages about the images themselves, so they are necessary for understanding the subject. This is not the case with the shooting. Di (they-them) (talk) 03:14, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Tank Man is about the man, not the photo. Shankar Sivarajan (talk) 04:59, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * …who became known because of the photo, but the relationship to #2 is different anyway, point is moot. Kingsif (talk) 15:43, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * It's literally criteria #2: respect for commercial opportunities. It's a current photo, so a very relevant concern. Kingsif (talk) 03:15, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * And so we should have deleted them, before they'd even been printed in the newspapers (for tank man at least). Nfitz (talk) 03:20, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Delete This image is absolutely not necessary for a full comprehension of the text, and as such should be deleted. Des Vallee (talk) 02:52, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep historical photo Bedrockbob (talk) 02:56, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * | The New Yorker says it's historic, so that buttresses the case for its existence. BarntToust (talk) 03:07, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * An OpEd in an unreliable source. So, wrong and wrong. Zaathras (talk) 03:08, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * The New Yorker? It is a legitimate website. and, Really? Op-ed is not the word for writers' opinions. That's what commentary IS, Zaathras. Please understand this. BarntToust (talk) 03:21, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I mean, commentary on stuff like that IS NOT what you are making it out to be, @Zaathras. It's valued input on the significance of an image. I think you've got the New York Post and The New Yorker confused. BarntToust (talk) 03:23, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * The New Yorker: per the page, "Although its reviews and events listings often focused on the cultural life of New York City, The New Yorker gained a reputation for publishing serious fiction, essays, and journalism for a national and international audience, featuring works by notable authors such as Truman Capote, Vladimir Nabokov, and Alice Munro." also, "It is well known for its illustrated and often topical covers, such as View of the World from 9th Avenue, its commentaries on popular culture and eccentric American culture, its attention to modern fiction by the inclusion of short stories and literary reviews, its rigorous fact checking and copy editing, " et. al.
 * You are confused. BarntToust (talk) 03:26, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * This appears to be a reliable website. You are wrong on saying it's unreliable. BarntToust (talk) 03:28, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * User:BarntToust, I'm pretty sure Zaathras is replying to a user sharing an op-ed from NewsBreak, which is listed as an unreliable source at WP:RS/P. They weren't replying to you about the New Yorker. Also, just a friendly suggestion, be mindful of when you may be leaving an excessive number of messages like this, as this could be perceived as WP:BLUDGEONING. <b style="font-family:Trebuchet MS"><b style="background-color:#07d;color:#FFF"> Vanilla </b><b style="background-color:#749;color:#FFF"> Wizard </b></b> 💙 03:49, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Oh okay, I didn't realize. Apologies for any ill feelings, @Zaathras, but I simply wished to be proactive in this, and my points do stand. Also, I take the linked essay from @Vanilla Wizard as an essay, not my binding duty, and I plan on (albeit respectfully) continuing my dialogue for however long this continues. I saw that Zaathra posted their words directly under my New Yorker source, and I apologize for going at it under a perhaps unfortunate and misunderstood context. I'll be more pragmatic in my edits from here on out. Thanks, Vanilla, for speaking with me. Have a good one all! BarntToust (talk) 03:54, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * It's not even the same image - most obviously, in the image in the The New Yorker piece, Trump's mouth is closed and the female agent's head is higher. (It's not even quite the same image as in the Politico article - we should be using an uncropped, though still reduced, version, if at all.) —Cryptic 03:28, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Yeah, Vucci's work is the best here, and the subject of legitimate critical commentary. So, a Vucci image could probably illustrate it best, in the illustration of such commentary and notability. BarntToust (talk) 03:30, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep - this is most certainly going to be the image that defines this particular event, for sure 03:42, 14 July 2024 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Claire 26 (talk • contribs)
 * Delete - there would only be a valid fair use rationale if there were an article on the image itself. But using a copyrighted image in the manner it was originally intended, that is to illustrate material about what the image is of and not to discuss the image itseld, when that copyrighted image is at the height of its commercial utility is a violation of our fair use criteria and the photographer's and/or agencies right to market and profit from that image. This is a blatant fail of NFCC #2. It may well be valid under US law for fair use, but our NFCC is considerably more strict than that. nableezy  - 03:42, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep and close — Commentary has been provided about this image. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 03:46, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Commentary was necessary to keep the image from being deleted immediately, but it's not by itself sufficient. Every non-free image has to meet every one of the WP:non-free content criteria, and I've still got grave concerns about #2 and #8, and lesser ones about #1 and #10 (it's not at all clear, for example, that it was first published by Business Insider). —Cryptic 03:52, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep - this is an historic image that cannot be recreated since the event has passed. It provides significant aid to the reader by illustrating the nature of Trump's injuries and his reaction to them. <b style="color: #E2062C ;"> R. G. Checkers</b><b style="color: #000000;"> talk</b> 03:49, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Yeah! most efficient image to use to cover many aspects of the situation. BarntToust (talk) 03:59, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Delete: from the template itself (Non-free historic image): Use of historic images from press agencies must only be of a transformative nature, when the image itself is the subject of commentary rather than the event it depicts (which is the original market role, and is not allowed per policy). The actual use of this non-free image is in the article about the event itself, not in an article about the image itself. JWilz12345 (Talk|Contrib's.) 03:54, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Have you seen the commentary? It's in the article. BarntToust (talk) 03:56, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * @BarntToust read the template content. The use should be on an article or a section about the image itself, not the event. It is what is written in the template. Again: "Use of historic images from press agencies must only be of a transformative nature, when the image itself is the subject of commentary rather than the event it depicts (which is the original market role, and is not allowed per policy). JWilz12345 (Talk|Contrib's.) 04:01, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Okay, so the usage of non-free rationale should apply for this one, if the template is not valid in the context of an image in an article. BarntToust (talk) 04:06, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * From the boilerplate notice on the template: Please remember that the non-free content criteria require that non-free images on Wikipedia must not "[be] used in a manner that is likely to replace the original market role of the original copyrighted media." Use of historic images from press agencies must only be of a transformative nature, when the image itself is the subject of commentary rather than the event it depicts (which is the original market role, and is not allowed per policy). As used in the article about the event itself, this is certainly a breach of this restricted use condition. JWilz12345 (Talk|Contrib's.) 04:03, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * The market role can be mitigated by reduction of its size to the point in the uncanny valley where it's illustrative but not usable outside of the context. BarntToust (talk) 04:08, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * @BarntToust the image is right again in the infobox, which clearly shows the purpose of illustrating the event: a breach of the conditions imposed by the template stating that it should only be used when it is the subject of a commentary, not a subject of the event. JWilz12345 (Talk|Contrib's.) 07:23, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * New comment: a new article on the Evan Vucci images themselves – Trump raised fist photographs – has been created. While use in the article now complies with the rules stated at Non-free historic image (my opinion), the fate of the image now rests on the closure of the article deletion nomination itself. JWilz12345 (Talk|Contrib's.) 01:41, 15 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Keep - I'd argue it counts as a historic image, considering how widespread it currently is and how many people associate this event with this image and Trump's reaction. Justrz (talk) 03:57, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep - This is one of the most iconic pictures of the incident. Nuke (talk) 04:17, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Delete' WP:COPYVIO. It's a recent image and the keep !votes calling it "historic" seem odd. There are fair use alternatives that are already emerging. Jontesta (talk) 04:25, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * What's odd about calling it historic? —  That Coptic Guy ping me! (talk) (contribs) 04:27, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Perhaps the answer will be revealed if you re-read my historic comment from 20 minutes ago. Jontesta (talk) 04:45, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * @Jontesta Your comment didn't involve a US President being shot or two people getting killed. Please keep the sass down to acceptable levels. (I think you're a masterclass at it though, notwithstanding this discussion.) BarntToust (talk) 04:57, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * My tone is one of confusion. There are multiple photos of this incident and we should prefer one that is fair use. Jontesta (talk) 05:00, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * This literally is fair use, though -- see WP:NFCC. <b style="font-family: monospace; color:#E35BD8"><b style="color:#029D74">jp</b>×<b style="color: #029D74">g</b>🗯️</b> 06:06, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Former US President? Presidential candidate? Calling him POTUS is disingenuous. 199.168.95.151 (talk) 10:05, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * nobody said he was potus, they said he was a president. you're using an awful big word there, 199. 2600:2B00:9639:F100:282D:933B:D824:B63 (talk) 17:42, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * What alternatives? Where? Whose? We need a link to commons or Flickr or something. BarntToust (talk) 04:51, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * This is fair use. Cremastra (talk) 22:15, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Question Are we able to contact the Copyright-holder for permission to use this image?  Lord ' serious ' pig  04:28, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * The Associated Press owns the copyright. Hell would freeze over before they give the image to us for free. Luckily for us, that's why fair-use is enshrined in U.S. law.  Bremps  ...  08:22, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * In order for fair use to apply for our purposes and according to Wikipedia guidelines there cannot exist any other photo that would depict the event that is available via the commons. Thousands of people were at this event, it is probably best to wait for someone to upload their personal photo to commons. LegalSmeagolian (talk) 13:14, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Yes, there is nothing more unlikely than that. The only reason why these companies were established is to make cash, not to create a free press (content) or so --PantheraLeo1359531 (talk) 12:12, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Delete WP:COPYVIO. Historic or not (of course, it certainly is), we have guidelines to adhere to right now as a community, and I think this fact should take precedence - there are fair use images already out that depict the situation just as completely and wholly as this. DualDoppler (talk) 04:50, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * How would another image of the same event be fair use but this one not? Huh? Endwise (talk) 06:19, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I think Dual Doppler meant creative commons images. LegalSmeagolian (talk) 13:15, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Delete, on copyright grounds, per arguments by DualDoppler. If the photographer releases the image under a Creative Commons license, then it can be kept and moved to Commons. - Mardus /talk 05:08, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Delete Copyright is copyright and Wikipedia legally needs to comply with it. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 05:22, 14 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Man, let me tell you about this cool thing called fair use.  Bremps  ...  08:23, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep Like him or not, this image is going to be iconic - numerous sources are already calling this a historic image and that is not going to change. It should be removed from the infobox, and then replaced with a free image when one becomes available, but § Effects on Trump's public image describes the image and its impact and can justifiably be used there. --Lewis Hulbert (talk) 05:30, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Revoking this and changing to a Strong Keep as per the image now being included in the Trump raised-fist photographs article, which was SNOW kept at AfD. There is no way to use a free image in place of this on the article discussing the image itself. --Lewis Hulbert (talk) 15:39, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep I see no logical or encyclopedic reason to remove the image. This image is the one most commonly used by the media and by those in social media as the means by which the event is most recognizable and understood. It is not that much different from the one most commonly associated with the attempt on Ronald Reagan's life, and is currently used on Wikipedia for the article covering said attempt. Given its wide circulation throughout the media, there is little basis to state that this image shouldn't be used because of copyright. As has been said before, this is a historic image and that alone should merit its keeping on the article. Vivaporius (talk) 05:31, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Strong keep - as we have other copyrighted historic images that aren’t in articles discussing the image. This will very likely become an iconic image. So I think it’ll qualify as fair use. West Virginia WXeditor (talk) 05:40, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * It also, correct me if I’m wrong but it seems to satisfy all or most of the NFCC criteria. It’s definitely of an encyclopedic nature. West Virginia WXeditor (talk) 20:49, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * We have other (nonfree) historic images like of the fall of the Soviet Union for instance. West Virginia WXeditor (talk) 20:51, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I don’t see anything in the NFCC criteria that this obviously fails. I think it may be borderline on #8, but that’s about it. West Virginia WXeditor (talk) 20:53, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Now if for some uncanny reason someone finds a free image showing this; then I’d be inclined to support deletion. But until then, you can throw me #8, #2, #5, or whatever other criteria you want to throw at me, but unless someone can actually replace this with a free one, or show me where there would be an obvious violation; I’m not backing down from my opinion and won’t be persuaded to support deletion. Thank you. West Virginia WXeditor (talk) 20:58, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * And ps. The person below this forgot to sign. Starting to wonder if SineBot is down. West Virginia WXeditor (talk) 20:59, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * It's already been circulating in some of the largest media outlets out there like CNN who say as much too. From CNN: 'The images will stand in history and enrich Trump’s mythology just as surely as the picture of his mug shot in at Atlanta jail and the footage of his return to the White House in 2020 after beating a serious Covid-19 infection.' —"Attack on Trump reopens a chilling chapter in American politics"
 * Strong keep per LuxembourgLover, Coulomb1, Personisinsterest, and others. - AndreyKva (talk) 05:42, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep I don't think any organization really owns the copyright of the image, its historic, and is commonly used on the internet. Dose any organization own the copyright to the image? if so which one.Zyxrq (talk) 05:41, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Evan Vucci owns the copyright of the image. Common use alone does not satisfy NFCC. WhoAteMyButter  (🌷talk│🌻contribs)


 * Keep This is of vast historical and encyclopedic value, and the arguments against it are remarkably disingenuous. — THORNFIELD HALL (Talk) 05:43, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Delete Does not satisfy fair use requirements. It is likely that other appropriate free images will eventually become available from among the many spectators that were filming during the event. -- <b style="color:maroon;">Tom N</b> talk/contrib 21:35, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep The image is of historical importance compared to the toppling of Saddam Hussein's statue, a major key event of the 2003 invasion of Iraq symbolizing the fall of Saddam's regime. Likewise the image portrays a key event of the 2024 United States presidential election. --CaeserKaiser (talk) 05:52, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep, since this is already being shown on multiple news websites including CNN, and is being posted everywhere online. It's the most recognizable image there can be of this event. LegendoftheGoldenAges85 of the East (talk &#124; worse talk) 05:56, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

Keep it. It is historical and iconic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.70.136.24 (talk) 06:08, 14 July 2024 (UTC) --User: MattiasLikesOxygen-- — Preceding undated comment added 06:24, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * DELETE - This image does not satisfy NFCC and the substance of the article can be conveyed just fine without it. RahelTensions (talk) 06:12, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Delete. with respect and kudos to the photographer, the photo appears to show Trump in what could easily be seen as an ostentatiously strong light, and used alone, it encompasses the events of the day very narrowly. Additionally, whether or not we have license under Wikipedia rules to use the photo in the way we are currently displaying it on the page doesn't quite seem concrete.
 * Keep. The media is calling this specific image "one of the most iconic photos in U.S. history" . It therefore cannot be replaced (NFCC#1) and is a significant aspect of this event which we would miss if we didn't include (NFCC#8). I note also that the article already contains discussion of the image, which would be significantly diminished without the image's presence. Endwise (talk) 06:28, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Delete I'm a pretty strong supporter of property rights and I am not persuaded by those on the other side of this discussion that this image meets the legal criteria for an exception to copyright protection. There are quite a few very dramatic images of yesterday's events. I am fairly sure we can find one or two that will pass legal muster and do justice to the article. -Ad Orientem (talk) 06:36, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Delete, fails WP:NFCC. —Locke Cole • t • c 06:51, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep. Very obviously a history-defining photo that falls under WP:FAIRUSE, per above; case closed (Comment/Abstain proviso: I support an explicitly free-use alternative if available, but I doubt we'll see one for some time ipso facto).-- <b style="color:DarkGoldenRod;">~Sıgehelmus♗</b><b style="color:CornflowerBlue">(Tøk)</b> 07:11, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep per Endwise: recognizable photo that illustrates the event. Cremastra (talk) 07:20, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep - Image improves the article and is of obvious historic importance. Glass Snow (talk) 07:27, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep: Image is of particular note. Besides that, we don't really have a free use image to replace it, other than those of poor quality. Keep this for now and see what happens with the licensing of the image, we have a commentary on the image located within the article anyway. Fantastic Mr. Fox (talk) 07:38, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Weak Keep, at least until another good image can be found. I've participated in a decent number of FFDs and here's my opinion. This image is definitely historic given its importance and the degree of coverage it's getting. (It wouldn't surprise me if it gets its own article after the dust settles.) I'm quite sure it's an acceptable historic image, because it's the subject of significant commentary. The only thing I'm worried about is whether this meets NFCC 2, respect for commercial usage. After all, we're using it to report the news--it's mostly not the subject of commentary. The Quirky Kitty (talk) 07:10, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * NFCC#2 is I think the most reasonable concern, but our version is low-res and the photo has already been licensed to hundreds of news outlets, so we probably aren't really hurting its commercial success? Endwise (talk) 11:55, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Delete on copyright grounds as articulated by many others. If the photographer releases the image under a Creative Commons license, then it can be kept and moved to Commons. Craig Andrew1 (talk) 07:42, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * This line of inquiry is a dead-end, AP will never freely license this. However, the image is historic enough that it's fair-use, to the point that there is significant discussion about this particular image. There is a significant loss if this image is deleted. I'm voting Keep.  Bremps  ...  08:18, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep Anyone trying to delete this is purely doing so for political reasons. 90.244.131.5 (talk) 08:15, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * As the original uploader, let's assume the best of each other here.  Bremps  ...  08:17, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Delete All the keep !votes that don't say how it meets NFCC are not worth much. It is too early to say whether it meets NFCCP 1, while 5 and 8 are borderline at best and it definately fails 2. Air<b style="color: green;">corn</b> (talk) 08:28, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep, per u:HandIsNotNookls and u:JPxG . No chance of finding a free equivalent (NFCC #1). Low-res version would not harm the author's commercial opportunities (NFCC #2). The current use is minimal (NFCC #3). Alaexis¿question? 08:29, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I think what other people advocating for deletion was concerned about was NFCC #8, about which at the time, the article lacked a major discussion on the photo(now it does imo). Ca <sup style="display:inline-flex;rotate:7deg;">talk to me!  11:01, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep. There is one problem I notice within the opposition here. Some falsely assume that this image is propaganda and hence violates NPOV. This is easily debunked that Associated Press, the last news website to ever upload Trump 'propaganda', was the uploader of the image. Hence it is not propaganda, which as a pejorative can't be used in encyclopedic discussions, but a remarkable image overused amid a fierce political season. I would argue that 'propaganda' isn't per se unencyclopedic— if we have a stunning portrait of Adolf Hitler, that's not propaganda, that's just a perfect photo to depict him. I notice that the image has an entire critical analysis section at the bottom of Aftermath, which seems to legitimize the presence of this picture. I would suggest moving the image to that part of the art. instead, so that its significance is more obvious.  Gerald WL  08:31, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * That's not the concern with the opposition, the concern is it violates copyright. LegalSmeagolian (talk) 13:17, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * A thorough look at the opposition (at least, some) indicates such. With the presence of extensive commentary, I do not consider copyright to be a hindrance to the image being present in the art., as it is in low res, and is cropped. Fair use is applicable in this case.  Gerald WL  14:34, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Immediate Delete The image is a blatant violation of copyright, and its continues use opens up the Wikimedia Foundation to legal liabilities. It does not meet the criteria for fair use. Anyone arguing that it is an iconic image should create a new article specifically about this image. Hallucegenia (talk) 08:47, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Specifically the claim for fair use fails condition WP:F7 "Non-free images or media from a commercial source (e.g. Associated Press, Getty Images), where the file itself is not the subject of sourced commentary, are considered an invalid claim of fair use and fail the strict requirements of Wikipedia:Non-free content criteria, and may be deleted immediately. Hallucegenia (talk) 09:33, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * the subject of sourced commentary - ? <b style="font-family: monospace; color:#E35BD8"><b style="color:#029D74">jp</b>×<b style="color: #029D74">g</b>🗯️</b> 10:29, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * For information, I have created a new article about this photograph, which I think qualifies for use under the fair use criteria. Photograph of Donald Trump after shooting Hallucegenia (talk) 12:08, 14 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Keep I don't see the copyright problem here, fair use is dominant in this case. Matthieu Houriet (talk) 08:50, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Update: The updated nomination statement reflects that every 10 prongs of the NFCC is met at this point, so this should be closed and reopened with actionable arguments, if anything. Matthieu Houriet (talk) 21:06, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep, given the significant coverage of the photograph, it's entirely possible that this image should get its own page, and certainly a mention on the photographer's page. Some users seem to be confusing the question of whether we should keep this image on the Attempted assassination of Donald Trump page, and whether we should delete the image altogether. Just like many copyrighted images, there's a clear fair use case for this. Whether or not we should use the image on the Attempted assassination of Donald Trump page is a different question entirely (I would personally still lean towards, 'yes, it should be used on that page') but that's its own discussion. Joe  (talk) 08:56, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep – until we can find a better-quality free replacement, this will do for now. It seems like a valid case of fair use to me. — <span style="background:#1F6295;color:white;padding:1q 5q;border-radius:10q;font-family:Franklin Gothic, Verdana">AP 499D25  (talk)  09:15, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep, without future replacement by a free image. Historical photo, importance being noted by many reliable sources, applies for fair use, and is the most representative picture of the event. So what's the problem? Super   Ψ   Dro  09:33, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * How is this "most representative" of the event? The event was a shooting. This is a moment in the aftermath. -- Zanimum (talk) 09:57, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Significantly after the event occurred no less, after the shooter was neutralized. There are images taken place during the actual attempt, which should take priority. LegalSmeagolian (talk) 13:19, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * , and what picture is possibly most representative of the event if not this one? This is an image that must be in the article. Super   Ψ   Dro  18:55, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Without a question, this must be in the article. Indiana6724 (talk) 01:29, 15 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Keep. Articles are trickling into the mainstream press with titles like Trump’s Raised Fist Will Make History — And Define His Candidacy (Politico) and "Amid the Mayhem, Trump Pumped His Fist and Revealed His Instincts" (The New York Times). Trump's reaction to the attack is notable in and of itself, and this image is an ideal means of illustrating that aspect of the event. Particularly if this ends up being a turning point in the campaign—which is certainly credible considering how other assassination attempts of political candidates has gone in the past—having this image will be a critical piece of Wikipedia's coverage of the event.
 * Now, for the policy wonks—There is clearly no way to get a free use image of this not-legally-recreatable event (NFCC #1), the photographer's commercial opportunities are clearly not being hampered by us running it since so many mainstream outlets are running the full-size image (NFCC #2), it is used once to illustrate one article (NFCC #3, #7), as stated before it has been previously published in major news sources (NFCC #4), it is encyclopedic (NFCC #5, although I contend that this site has ground the word "encyclopedic" down into such a fine paste that it has no meaning anymore, but that's what the policy asks for here), I can see no reason it would violate WP:IUP (NFCC #6), as the de facto defining image of the event it inherently increases readers' understanding of the article topic and would be detrimental to the readers' understanding (NFCC #8), NFCC #9 is not relevant to a deletion discussion, and the image description page looks up to snuff (NFCC #10). —Scott5114↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 10:31, 14 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Keep the current layout with the image used in a section specifically discussing impact and coverage of the image should be fine. Whether in can be used for the article overall should be up to people better versed in copyright law. — jonas (talk) 10:38, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep an image with very clear historical importance.--Martianmister (talk) 10:40, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

Keep, until a free image is available - Jonnmann (talk) 10:36, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep, given the significant coverage of the photograph. But I agree that we must replace the photograph when a free image available. Mmnashrullah (talk) 10:42, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Strong Keep Since no one on the Keep side has offered more persuasive reasons than "common use" or "historical event", I find myself, as a law student, obliged to give some, though I confess that my reasons may rather be more like "legal policy" instead of "original text". I also invite @BluePenguin18 to join the discussion here so that we can better address this case.
 * BluePenguin18 has mentioned that the photo here falls undoubtedly under the protection of US copyright law, which I won't oppose. Here I'll rather refer to a German case that the Wiki community has lost in a row of appeals (BGH, 20.12.2018 - I ZR 104/17, Museumsfotos): while the artworks in the museum were all in public domain, the German court found the photos on Wiki infringing, relying on the photographer’s neighboring right (no copyright for “Lichtbilder” there), as well as the museum’s land right along with standard form contract ("Allgemeine Geschäftsbedingungen"). Two inspirations: first, even without copyright, monopoly on info may still occur through other means; second, throughout and even after the whole legal process Wikimedia has been a staunch endorser of free use. . For us Wikipedians, fair use should never be a compliance requirement which hinders our free expression. Rather we have a long history of “rebel”.
 * You may argue that here we’re talking about a newly created picture, not something in the public domain, and the two cases must be distinguished. Fine. But from the outset of the modern interpretation of fair use doctrine (since Campbell) there has not been a consensus that it is only a defense for customers who accidentally and “harmlessly” takes a free riding. Rather, many scholars have seen fair use as per se shaping the limits of copyright and hence encouraging positive secondary uses, even if the use is at odds with the original author’s potential commercial plan. (See for example, “Fair Use: An Affirmative Defense?” by Lydia Pallas Loren, 2015.)
 * Among the four factors of fair use, Factor 4, i.e. market incentives, has often been seen as significantly, if not decisively, important. Yet few, if not none, has talked about it here. We need to recognize that Evan Vucci, as an employee of AP and already prize-winning photographer, enjoys much more economic benefits from elsewhere than from a petty license on Wiki. And due to the news nature of the photo he may expect more financial interests from the next Pulitzer Prize rather than from broad online licensing. More importantly, after the news he HAS POSTED THE PHOTO ON THE X PLATFORM so that anyone from Elon Musk to a nobody can freely cite it. Did he just post a low-quality copy of the photo there so that he can price discriminate on different sites? Nope. And he must be aware that the photos online does not harm his capacity to license other famous magazines and papers.
 * Conclusion, even if Vucci does really want more profits from Wiki, that doesn’t mean we should give in first. Just wait for him to DMCA us! -- Jason211pacem (talk) 10:43, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Additional Comment I find that some among us believe that "since there are photos accurately capturing the moment of shooting, we shouldn't use Vucci's photo here" or "we may keep until we find closer moment to the shooting". That sounds quite weird to me. Then we must replace the headline photo in Assassination of John F. Kennedy (JFK's convoy minutes before the event) with one accurately capturing the bullet passing through the poor president's head? Remember that the moment seized by Vucci happened just ONE MINUTE after the shot. We need not question its news value. Jason211pacem (talk) 14:03, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * We use File:JFK limousine.png because it is both the image most associated with the event's news coverage and in the public domain. Copyrighted images cannot be used on Wikipedia simply because they satisfy the first criterion. BluePenguin18 🐧  ( 💬 ) 15:21, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * While "how does fair use align with public expression" and "how does one assert copyright ownership in the age of mass online image sharing" are great topics of debate for a law class seminar, the Wikimedia Foundation is a registered organisation that has certain legal responsibilities. You will note that Wikipedia's NFCC requirements are stricter than US fair use law, and part of that is because Wikimedia's lawyers do not want to wait for him to DMCA us. I have never seen someone with purported knowledge of copyright law to be so flippant about ignoring it on the basis of 'but it would be really hard for the copyright owner to challenge WP'. Kingsif (talk) 15:08, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Building off, Vucci's decision to post the photo on X is not proof that he is flippant with the image's copyright. The image was already being widely proliferated across social media before Vucci's post, and any photographer knows that policing social media posts for copyright infringement is too cumbersome. By making his own post on X, Vucci was simply promoting his creation to increase its commercial value among institutional customers. BluePenguin18 🐧  ( 💬 ) 15:17, 14 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Delete for the sole reason that the image is easily accessible across tabloid sources, a simple web search will find it instantly. We do not need to have non-free content here that is extremely easy to find elsewhere. Ideally, though, a photographer or agency holding the rights to an image would conduct a VRT release, but I really doubt that would ever happen. There is big money in images like this, hence why Wikipedia needs to be careful - I would not be surprised if the copyright holders look around for violations and sue the reusers as a way of getting some extra money. Redtree21 (talk) 10:54, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep Now covered in detail in the section Attempted_assassination_of_Donald_Trump. An entire well-sourced paragraph and a half is used for this discussion of this photo. Now satisfies WP:NFCCP #5 and #9. Ca <sup style="display:inline-flex;rotate:7deg;">talk to me!  10:54, 14 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Keep as other users here have stated, multiple WP:RS have specifically identified this image as notable and of historical importance, and iconic in relation to the event. Thismess (talk) 10:47, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep Relevant image definitely.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by IHaveBecauseOfLocks (talk • contribs) 11:02, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep - historic image, the subject of sourced commentary, and so it complies with our non-free images policy. Levivich (talk) 11:06, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Delete It may become iconic and/or historic. At this point, a few hours after the incident, it is neither. 2403:6200:8810:F964:B067:4711:4774:5642 (talk) 10:53, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Delete a non copyrighted image should be used as I understand it this Photo belongs to Evan Vucci and he works for Associated Press. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DataCrusade1999 (talk • contribs) 11:21, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * KEEP historic image that is sure to define this generation and become an iconic photograph. daruda (talk) 11:22, 14 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Keep It is low-resolution version (per Wikipedia's fair use policy) of the only photograph in the article that illustrates its subject. Ivan (talk) 11:25, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep Definitely a historical image.--Aréat (talk) 11:28, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep I can't think of any picture more historical and relevant to the section it is in than this.★Trekker (talk) 11:46, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Delete While I understand the point by some above, there is significant doubt this actually meets WP:NFCC criteria, which means this must default to delete. Copyright is a serious deal for Wikipedia, not a game of chicken ( is quite out of the question). I think it is far too soon to tell if this is actually a historic image; just because some eager people call it as such on the day of doesn't make it so (especially with so many other images of this). This does not proscribe it in the future if circumstances change. Curbon7 (talk) 11:50, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your kind mention, Curbon7. My timetable and the lengths of my previous statement didn't allow me to elaborate, so I left a hippy-style conclusion. Yet by saying "let him DMCA us" I didn't meant to completely ignore or topple the copyright regime. About such an idea I am Half Serious. Plz let me clarify it here:
 * While copyright is absolutely a serious deal, its legal regime should not be treated as moral burdens to the secondary users. Rather, it provides us with instructions and legal tools on negotiating a license with the right holder. DMCA, in particular, falls into such a description, as it tries to maintain a balance among right holders, platforms and net users. While "let him sue" may sound appalling, I don't find it a taboo for a copyright discussion.
 * By saying "fair use is not a compliance requirement" I don't mean ANY compliance is unnecessary. Rather, I believe that rules like NFCC is foundational for our forum. Yet my argument is based on the following idea: copyright, like other IP rights, doesn't mean full property rule. For example: A. S. Rinehart, in her 2010 essay "Contracting Patents: A Modern Patent Exhaustion Doctrine", modelled patent exhaustion as a pliability rule which, under certain circumstances, shifts the protection level from property rule to liability rule. I believe the case in copyright fair use is similar. And I further believe that, with a liability rule and a quasi-contract-style protection, the secondary user, based on reasonable good faith, need not immediately refrain from the use and delete the copy; whether our faith is indeed no problem, is subject to the "let him sue" stage. Therefore, we need not resort to the strictest interpretation of NFCC, and an adequate level of application is enough.
 * So let's pay attention to NFCC. While all 10 criteria should be met, in individual judgments the 10 factors must be correlated. Here I only mention the criteria 1 & 2, which I find most important. While criterion 1 may be the biggest barrier for the secondary use, I think its main focus is rather about citation of literature than about photos. There can be so many different photos serving similar encyclopedic purposes; if we too stringently follow the text, then we may find it quite troubling to search for free yet publicly unknown materials: "Is there any better option than Raising the Flag on Iwo Jima that adequately adresses the WWII History of the United States?" For criterion 2, I must say that my idea may change a little bit if the photo is from a rather humble photographer who happens to make their creation viral (I know it's hard for pixiv artists to make money through single pictures, many of them must resort to privitized customizations). But this is a typical case of famous photographer earning a living on his trademark instead of individual photo licenses. -- Jason211pacem (talk) 13:12, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I would very much hope the closing admin/s carefully considers the arguments made here and does not simply close on a headcount. Numerically there may seem to be more keep !votes, but a number of these (but not all, of course) are devoid of argument as to why this is compliant with our strict fair use policies. Curbon7 (talk) 23:14, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Because WP:NFCI #8 and #9. Your !vote addressed #8 but not #9. Levivich (talk) 00:40, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Delete for now with no prejudice against restoring later. There's no way to tell less than 24 hours afterward if this image has a unique significance with no free alternative. The event is significant, but there's no transitive property that conveys a unique significance to the image. There were untold numbers of cameras at the event, making untold numbers of photos. Any one of those may be released for free in the near future. The article is about the event, and not about the image. The image itself needs to be rendered irreplaceable.  G M G  <sup style="color:#000;font-family:Impact">talk  11:51, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep. This photo will have (if not already has) a historical value. Trang Oul (talk) 12:00, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Delete WP:NFCC has no exceptions for "crystal-balling the importance of something based on editor whims", and it fails the other NFCC criterion, particularly 2 and 8; there is nothing in the text that is significantly harmed by not having it (and the choice clearly seems like an intentional end-run around NPOV considerations, as well.) Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs  talk 12:10, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep - if copyright can be obtained. Otherwise, Delete if we'reunable to. Has anyone attempted to try to contact the photographer for permission to use it on Wikipedia? He does have some social media sources, and I believe he should have an AP e-mail address. Maybe once the event is a month old and is no longer as profitable for the photographer that they may give limited permission to share on Wikipedia. The Legacy (talk) 12:12, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * What are we supposed to do until the initial flurry of profitability that you describe has passed? Would it not be better to reupload once we have permission and a release from Associate Press (if this ever even occurred)? Redtree21 (talk) 12:27, 14 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Strong keep - Like others said, a former president getting injured in an assassination attempt is an exceptional event; and this photo has probably entered the historical pantheon. Vucci would agree - it's been shared and reproduced on an enormous scale, without any complaints from him at all. Unless we get a notice from AP, there's no need to remove it; in fact, it would be contrary to our mission of being a compendium of knowledge. HalfdanRagnarsson (talk) 12:55, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep. The usage is minimal: the extent of use has been reduced by reducing the resolution and cropping. It is implausible that this low resolution cropped version of this photograph which exists in the original, high, resolution, alongside various other high-resolution photographs with the same subject, is commercially usable in itself. This specific file with the dimensions of 514x479px does not have desirable properties for commercial use. The author can benefit from distributing the original version, and this modified version appearing in one Wikipedia article does not substantially diminish his commercial opportunities with respect to this work. I don't think that free images exist that could be used in place of this image to adequately illustrate the section Effects on Trump's public image (permalink). The image is of high contextual significance irrespective of it being a "historical image" because what is depicted has a strong connection to what is being discussed in the section: —Alalch E. 13:05, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Delete as a copyrighted image where it is too early to tell whether a free equivalent was made (WP:NFCCP). However, if the image is one day discussed separately in its own article, then there would obviously be no free equivalent for that article, and fair used could be claimed. Chaotic Enby   (talk · contribs) 13:06, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * It doesn't matter if there is an article about the image or the image is used to illustrate a portion of the content of another article. Completely the same. —Alalch E. 13:08, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * @Chaotic Enby it is too early to tell whether a free equivalent was made is a poor reason to delete the photo now. If a new, license compatible photo is found, then we can delete. But if, after deleting this photo, none crops up, we will have deprived readers of valuable information for no real reason. Mach61 13:14, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Except Wikipedia policy really is if there is no free image, to have no image, until it can be reasonably judged it will not be possible to ever have a free image. Then explore fair use. Kingsif (talk) 15:18, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * @Kingsif I have never heard of the existence of such a policy, nor do I read such a requirement in WP:NFC. Strictly speaking, all copyrighted content will be in the public domain at some point, but that fact does not invalidate our fair use claims Mach61 16:14, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * NFCC #1, with added emphasis: Non-free content is used only where no free equivalent is available, or could be created. The point is, can we reasonably say it's not going to be possible for an image to be released freely. A year after the fact, probably, not 24 hours. Future PD is sometimes mentioned, but as far as copyright lifespan before becoming PD — for current works, that’s creator’s lifespan plus 75 years in the US, which Commons requires, so in the realm of indefinite — it’s, as far as I’ve seen, just treated as the same thing, i.e. having to generally agree that there won’t be a free image (until copyright expires on non-free works). Then they can be used fair use until reaching PD. Kingsif (talk) 17:37, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * @Kingsif The release of an existing image under a free license is not the same thing as the potential creation of new free content. The latter is impossible in this instance, as the event has passed. Mach61 17:45, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Based on precedent, expectations, from other discussions, I take ‘releasing a pre-existing image with a new free license’ as a form of creating a free image. In my experience, images don’t get kept without sufficient BEFORE and without a compelling reason why no free equivalent will crop up. Give it a bit of time, because generally you have to be able to answer "yes" to all the following:
 * Will the subject of the depiction not or not likely occur again?
 * Have all images of the subject been or likely been published?
 * Are all of these images copyrighted (or have unknown license status, so presumably copyrighted)?
 * Has some effort been made to approach copyright holders and politely request a commons-compliant license re-release?
 * Kingsif (talk) 17:58, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * The point being, we don’t default to using non-free while still looking for free alternatives. Copyvio errs on the side of caution, if nothing else, and defaults to no image while still looking for free ones. Kingsif (talk) 17:42, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep, the photo meets criterion eight by virtue of actually depicting the aftermath of the event itself, in color, something text cannot do. It meets criterion two by cropping and lowering the resolution compared to the original. It meets criterion one because the event has passed, and no free photos of it have, to my knowledge, been released. Mach61 13:08, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * FWIW I have no special attachment to this photo over any other photos depicting the event or its immediate aftermath, w/r/t the Assassination attempt against Donald Trump article. Mach61 16:06, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep, I don't think it's hyperbolic to state that it is an historic and iconic image, with only The Situation Room popping to mind as another historic post 9/11 American image. The image is already getting widespread media attention and represents the event well. CaptainTeebs (talk) 13:15, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * The Situation Room photograph is in the public domain, as it was taken by a White House photographer. BluePenguin18 🐧  ( 💬 ) 15:08, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Speedy Delete, fails NFCC#1 and #2 and fulfils the F7b speedy deletion criteria. AlexandraAVX (talk) 13:48, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * F7b applies "where the file itself is not the subject of sourced commentary". See Attempted assassination of Donald Trump. Endwise (talk) 13:56, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep. Historic image. 14:21, 14 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Super turbo speedy keep This image has been used by thousands of news outlets, has been articulated clearly in the events article, and obviously meets fair use standards. Kcmastrpc (talk) 14:26, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep Sebastián Arena... Urantia three-concentric-blue-circles-on-white symbol.svg 14:35, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep The photo itself is in the focus of news coverage. See for example Telegraph.co.uk: Bloodied face, fist raised in defiance: how this image may win Trump the US presidency. So the following statement will become untrue: "the file itself is not the subject of sourced commentary" Slieredna (talk) 14:52, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

KEEP it's a historical image. All of the above keep arguments are important. The entire article is about what is shown in the image, it's relevant. 98.203.91.148 (talk) 12:37, 14 July 2024 (UTC)Stealth
 * Weird, I didn't notice the photo actually being a documentary of the background, shooting, aftermath and public response. It would only qualify for "automatic" fair use if the article was about the image itself, not (one part of) the article being about (as you say) what the image depicts. Wikipedia cannot accept fair use claims for photos that don't capture the events they supposedly depict, only on the basis that they are iconic of the response. Response sections never unequivocally need images, better NFCC-compliance arguments are needed. Kingsif (talk) 15:26, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

KEEP. There's nothing good faith about it; the only reason people want this image gone is because they're scared of how it might improve his political standing. 2601:410:8200:3910:41D5:1020:7BA0:3E4F (talk) 14:05, 14 July 2024 (UTC) — 2601:410:8200:3910:41D5:1020:7BA0:3E4F (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * Weak Keep, although there are copyright concerns around this image, the photo is iconic and has been used by quite a lot of websites and new outlets already. ABG (Talk/Report any mistakes here) 15:25, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Not at all. Actually take the time to read what people are saying. The grounds for deletion are based on our strict Fair Use policy and that policy alone. TheWikiToby (talk) 23:54, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I agree with keeping the picture for historical reasons, but this is not a valid reason to keep it. MountainDew20 (talk) 06:30, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Replying to 2601:410:8200:3910:41D5:1020:7BA0:3E4F in case it’s not clear. MountainDew20 (talk) 06:32, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * KEEP. I am from Germany so I got no horse in this race. This picture is being used on international news outlets all over the world. No one will remember who shot Trump in 2025 but this photo is going down in history. Edit: The national news used the photo in their coverage: https://www.tagesschau.de/ausland/amerika/trump-wahlkampfveranstaltung-evakuiert-100.html

Capnpen (talk) 15:13, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * KEEP. Much as the Zapruder film became vital to the discussion of the Kennedy assassination, this photo is destined to become synonymous with this event. Substituting with another photo well not have the same effect.
 * Keep. This is a historic image depicting an attempted assassination on the former President of the United States. AbdullahMzm (talk) 14:01, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep. This image is historic image that will be remembered. I guess is ok to leave it on the page. Santixd12 (talk) 14:04, 14 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Comment Just going to build off my own comment above where I say Wikipedia cannot accept fair use claims for photos that don't capture the events they supposedly depict, only on the basis that they are iconic of the response. Response sections never unequivocally need images to address NFCC #8, that is, importance within the specific article it is being used in. Because even if we accept that the photo itself can be fair use (which it probably will be once the immediate commercial opportunities slow down), and that there will never be a free image to depict the entire article subject of the shooting (i.e. that the only way this article can have an image is to use a fair use one; this is incredibly unlikely), we also would need to reach a consensus that the best photographic representation of the article subject is this one, that this is the right fair use image for the article. Personally, I think that a fair use photo depicting the moment of the shooting would probably be more pertinent, even a photo of the rally either beforehand or being evacuated might encapsulate the entire event better. Of course, this is one of the subjective criteria, but it needs to be addressed if trying to !keep. Kingsif (talk) 15:41, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Note that this does not preclude an article about the photo being created, nor that the analysis in the event article could come to rely on (i.e. need) illustration. It is my understanding that neither of those are relevant at the moment, at least, not as described in the file's fair use template (#10). Kingsif (talk) 15:53, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Delete This is copyrighted and hasn't been released by the author, and has significant commercial value. A free alternative will almost certainly become available. Horep (talk) 15:33, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * When and if it would be available we can bring this argument. Currently this argument is improper. With regards, Oleg Y.  (talk) 15:46, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * No, the opposite: to quote myself, Wikipedia policy really is if there is no free image, to have no image, until it can be reasonably judged it will not be possible to ever have a free image. Then explore fair use. Kingsif (talk) 15:54, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep: The photo itself is the subject of news coverage that is discussed within the article.--Tdl1060 (talk) 15:43, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep - If Wikipedia is keeping the image of Will Smith sucker punching Chris Rock who is not a president or former president, then I think we should keep this one. --LasVegasGirl93 (talk) 15:51, 14 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Comment as an addendum to my above call for deletion. After reading through this discussion, I am struck by the large number of Keeps that seem to either entirely ignore, or seriously downplay the legal issues here. Copyright and respect for that, is one of the more important policies we have as a community. On which note, has anyone considered contacting the AP, and asking them for permission to use their image? -Ad Orientem (talk) 16:19, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Honestly any comment that suggests that it is appropriate solely due to it being an "iconic image" should just be ignored as that is not even a factor in determining fair use criteria. Someone suggested contacting AP in this thread, but to be honest I think this photo set from Doug Mills at the NYT is a much better depiction of the event as it actually shows the immediate event, so might be worth contacting a few of these outlets. I don't know who would want to take point but yeah, doubt they will give us permission. Who is to say though! LegalSmeagolian (talk) 19:00, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep I concur with what Alalch E. wrote about its minimal usage and strong connection to what is being discussed in the section. BlueShirtz (talk) 16:24, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Delete as it doesn't meet WP:NFCC. It's a great photo but there are plenty of free media about the assassination attempt that could also illustrate the event. I think the best comparison is 1989 Tiananmen Square protests and massacre and Tank Man. While the Tank Man photo is iconic and historically significant, it isn't present in the article about the main event because there are sufficient free alternatives. Since the photo itself became notable, it gets used in its own article, but not in the article about the main protest/massacre. Citing (talk) 16:26, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * It doesn't matter in which article it is used at as long as it serves a valid illustrative purpose relative to some portion of the text. —Alalch E. 16:28, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Sure, but what's the portion of the text? A paragraph saying a photographer took a really good photo? I think that's pretty thin justification, otherwise every news event would be littered with copyrighted material. Maybe this photo will take on historical significance and a life of its own, but we can't tell that at this point and this website isn't a crystal ball. For all we know, reliable sources will stop talking about it by the end of the news cycle. Citing (talk) 16:42, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * @Citing I have no issue with removing this photo from the main article if a free alternative is released. None has, so far, and none could be newly created, as the event has passed. Mach61 16:36, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * There were thousands (hundreds?) of people at the rally, many of whom were recording or taking photos, and it hasn't been 24 hours. I'd be shocked if *no* free media were uploaded. Citing (talk) 16:48, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep per users above
 * Delete, same photo was deleted on Commons and this file should be deleted as well. Changing my mind. Toadette Edit! 16:47, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Adding there is a larger problem reported on Meta on this image. It is a copyvio that should be deleted. Toadette Edit! 16:56, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * It's not appropriate to use on Wikinews. That is a different concern and irrelevant to this discussion. BarntToust (talk) 18:45, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Commons has different policy. It's routine that Commons would delete what the English Wikipedia would not. —Alalch E. 17:09, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * KEEP the photo. This photo sums up the spirit of the article and Mr. Trumps spirit after he was almost assassinated. 2620:149:1CA1:200:197A:D379:B2E8:CE6D (talk) 16:52, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

Delete: As others have noted, there are potential issues with the commercial rights and licensing of this image. Wikipedia must adhere to strict copyright policies to maintain its integrity and legal standing. Additionally, there is evolving context that must be considered. This is a rapidly unfolding and emotionally charged event. We don't yet have a full understanding of how this image is being used or interpreted in various contexts. Its inclusion could unintentionally promote or signal certain narratives before we have a complete picture. Ms.britt (talk) 19:13, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep in concurance with what Alalch E. about it's minimal usage and strong connection to the subject. With regards, Oleg Y.  (talk) 17:01, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep, this promptly iconic image meets the criteria of WP:Fair use. --Norden1990 (talk) 17:03, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep, this is a historic image. Urban Versis 32KB ⚡ (talk / contribs) 17:06, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Delete: The image is not the exclusive image taken and, less than a day later, we have certainly not exhausted the search for images without copyright restrictions. Furthermore, there is the possibility that we are infringing on a compelling commercial interest by duplicating this image without permission. If an article on the image or images is written, then we could have a reason for fair use. The "historic" merit of an image is not a compelling argument in this case and should be understood as not pertinent~ Pbritti (talk) 17:28, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep: per new article on the photographs themselves. While other images may exist, this is by far the one most relevant to the subject of the raised fist photographs article. ~ Pbritti (talk) 03:39, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep it... it is history to delete it would only further prove wiki political bias and lose millions in dontations to wikpedia 2601:40E:182:E50:B19C:913C:67DF:EE2B (talk) 17:50, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * We should act in accordance with Wikipedia policy, not based off of how people will donate to the project. LegalSmeagolian (talk) 19:51, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Delete: Might be historic, not free use as per reasons above. The page is not about the photo itself. If the photo becomes notable, create a new page for the photo. Kunal4 (talk) 18:19, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Weak keep for now. We're seeing authors in major publications beginning to write about the image itself, which throws this more into the realm of illustrating the subject of critical commentary, not merely illustrating an event.  In such a situation, the issue of effect-on-reuse is less significant, since even another nonfree image wouldn't be able to replace it: the commentary is about this particular image, not about the event that it depicts.  However, these are necessarily all primary sources — they date from the historic context of the image's creation, not from significantly afterward — and if secondary sources end up ignoring this image or rejecting the idea that it was of significance, we'll have reason to say that it's not a historically significant image, making it unsuitable for coverage here.  Should that be the case, we'll have no justification for claiming fair use for a commercial image.  Nyttend (talk) 18:54, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * @Nyttend then a new article about the image itself should be created. The image, being used in an article about the event, already breaches the rule as stated at Non-free historic image. JWilz12345 (Talk|Contrib's.) 01:30, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Case in point Claire 26 (talk) 19:20, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * This is very wishy-washy language, and frankly almost sounds AI generated. Please cite specific policies... how is "emotionally charged" even relevant here? A large amount of people all over the world by definition are going to find anything on the news "charged". <b style="color:DarkGoldenRod;">~Sıgehelmus♗</b><b style="color:CornflowerBlue">(Tøk)</b> 19:46, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep, but only because it's a low-res photo - from looking at WP:NFCC, it obviously meets criteria 1 and 4-10, so the discussion boils down to #2 (respect for commercial opportunities) and #3 (minimal usage). A 326x304 thumbnail is all we need for WP purposes, and I can't imagine a low-res version here is going to interfere with actual commercial opportunities for the photographer (because the only people who will pay are going to want either high-res so they can publish it, commercial rights to sell it on shirts etc., or both - WP usage won't interfere with that). I don't think high-res would be OK, but low-res is. Alsadius (talk) 21:05, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Article about photo has been created at Trump raised fist photographs. Levivich (talk) 21:37, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Perfectly ok there, but it now fails WP:UUI #6 in the assassination article. —Cryptic 22:19, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I've always strongly disagreed with that guideline, but it is a guideline, and I'm sure someone will remove it from the assassination article. Levivich (talk) 22:23, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep UUI#6 in the assassination article is irrelevant since (at least) one other article uses it properly. If some editors POINTily add a NFCC image (like this one) into a section describing it, it's no reason for deletion. The  fails WP:UUI, not the  . This may have occurred after Talk:Attempted_assassination_of_Donald_Trump. The original location as shown by Special:Permalink/1234368837 was in the infobox, where it passes UUI6. 174.92.25.207 (talk) 10:40, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * That's nonsensical. The whole point of UUI6 is that usage in the article about the photograph itself precludes its usage in an article about the event depicted in the photograph, whether it's correctly placed near where the photograph is discussed or as an illustration in the infobox where it's even worse.  Of course it doesn't mandate deletion and removal from both articles, and FFDs in general don't result in simple binary keep/delete decisions. —Cryptic 10:50, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * If it can't be in the infobox lest pro-Trump POV concerns, it could belong in or another section.
 * Please read WP:UUI carefully. Nowhere does it say or imply . It clearly says "An image to illustrate an article passage about the image". If it was outside that section, like how it was in the infobox, then it's not in any "passage about the image", but rather unambiguously in a "passage about the event". A image to illustrate an event couldn't be more appropriate. 174.92.25.207 (talk) 11:12, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * It's UUI7 that rules out its use there other than in the context of its sourced commentary. —Cryptic 11:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Let me quote UUI7: "A photo from a press agency or photo agency (e.g., AP or Getty Images), unless the photo itself is the subject of sourced commentary in the article." Whatever means, the actual wording of UUI7 means that the sourced commentary can be anywhere "in the article". There is no requirement for the image and its sourced commentary to be in the same section. 174.92.25.207 (talk) 11:43, 16 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Keep - Looking at WP:NFCC, the relevant policy, I'm failing to see which of the ten criteria this doesn't meet. The first four seem the most pertinent, so let's look at them in turn:
 * No free equivalent - There's no free equivalent to this photo as far as I'm aware.
 * Respect for commercial opportunities - The cropped, tiny image here should not interfere with normal market usage of the photo.
 * Minimal usage - This is a single item, and again, it's cropped and shrunk from the original
 * Previous publication - This was already published by the Associated Press as well as many other news organizations.
 * The rest of the items are more generic and not an issue at all here, or can be easily corrected if technicalities come up. So I don't see how this fails on policy grounds. It should be kept unless and until a free alternative becomes available. —<B>Torchiest</B> talk<sub style="margin-left:-3ex;">edits 21:41, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I'm curious what research you've done before declaring no free equivalent exists. After all, there are plenty of other pictures of this event out there. And why this image - which has the highest commercial potential - rather than another one? Guettarda (talk) 00:01, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep there is no free alternative for the article Trump raised fist photographs. Senior Captain Thrawn (talk) 21:43, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep, It would be nitpicking and not many other political photos are treated this way. I think its a very important photo and the copyright holder wont have an issue.--Fruitloop11 (talk) 21:47, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * As far as I can tell it isn't "legally prohibited", it's subject to fair use doctrine, of which Wikipedia takes an extremely narrow interpretation for policy reasons unrelated to law (e.g. we are using a tiny 200px thumbnail of the photo and not the actual photo). <b style="font-family: monospace; color:#E35BD8"><b style="color:#029D74">jp</b>×<b style="color: #029D74">g</b>🗯️</b> 19:25, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * KEEP: This image is of historical and cultural significance. Nir007H (talk) 19:40, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * KEEP: I also concur, ditto, and the cropped photograph with the United States flag partially cut out doesn’t entirely glorify Trump’s survival. (Trying to get political bias out of the way as good Wikipedians should, I mostly add/edit flags on Wikipedia Commons.) Centralismo (talk) 21:13, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * KEEP, absolutely one of the historic pictures of this century Muelder (talk) 21:21, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep: this image conveys post-assassination events the subject of the article's section. ImmanuelLovesYou (talk) 21:13, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Strongly Keep: although better suited for the Victims or Aftermath sections of article. ImmanuelLovesYou (talk) 21:18, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Symbol keep vote.svgSpeedily keep Fair use, and the related incident needs proper visual identification. Maybe use the entire portion and move it to the infobox, but otherwise, no, this file needs to be on the Wikipedia until an adequate free alternative exists. AuroraANovaUma ^-^ (talk) 21:48, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Furthermore, this is not the first time an image tagged under the historic image template was used in such a way. We may need more than one template to describe that though. Regardless, I still feel that visual identification of the incident is desperately needed. AuroraANovaUma ^-^ (talk) 21:58, 14 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Delete - it's fails WP:NFCC #2, arguably fails NFCC #1. For example, in addition to Vucci's photos, Getty Images includes photos from Rebecca Droke and Jeff Swensen, and I'm sure many others exist as well. Including this picture in Wikipedia at this point in time makes it less likely for someone to upload their own version to Commons. Guettarda (talk) 23:47, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Delete Unfortunately, per copyright law and fair use law, this photo does not appear to qualify. Any fair use claim is especially knocked down not only because the article of use isn't about the photo, but also because there are large number of other photos also being used in the media about the incident, thus fair use doesn't cover this particular image as a singular representative use. I hope the closer of this discussion takes into account copyright law and WP policy requirements, rather than all the Keep votes above that aren't putting forward a policy argument or even addressing the copyright fair use concerns. Silver  seren C 23:41, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Delete Also fails WP:NFC, a photo from a press agency or photo agency. 49.150.14.10 (talk) 00:00, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * That's true, but NFC#UUI also states,
 * A photo from a press agency or photo agency (e.g., AP or Getty Images), unless the photo itself is the subject of sourced commentary in the article.
 * With both an article and the section on the image, this rule doesn't apply here. TheWikiToby (talk) 00:14, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * yes, the photo has been shown as the subject of its own article now, so I now propose definitive Speedy Keep based on that. BarntToust (talk) 00:20, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I concur with this and also boost my vote to Speedy Keep. All counterarguments are bordering upon ludicrous now. <b style="color:DarkGoldenRod;">~Sıgehelmus♗</b><b style="color:CornflowerBlue">(Tøk)</b> 08:10, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Oh for fuck sake, that is a blatant content fork that should not have been created. It should go to AfD immediately. Zaathras (talk) 00:22, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * It is notable enough. No matter what, it has an entire section and lots of commentary that we can simply move over and link to in the infobox. Personisinsterest (talk) 00:36, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * It's also about "photographs", plural, and so the question of why this specific image is open again. The current-ness of it all is not helping. Kingsif (talk) 00:37, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * You should login if you are gonna vote so we know you arent using multiple IP to vote again and again Fruitloop11 (talk) 01:13, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * IPs are allowed !votes - whether they're SPAs or make useful arguments is a different question. And it's actually way easier to connect IPs together (e.g. through WHOIS) than for non-CUs to determine if one person is running multiple logged-in accounts. Kingsif (talk) 01:46, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep per above. This historic image will have a strong value in the future. People should learn about the risks of running for public office. Ahri Boy (talk) 00:17, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep per above. Image is a huge talking point in the article and the event itself. Very important to have this image seen in this article. --TDKR Chicago 101 (talk) 00:44, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep but only to accompany text about this image in particular, not to visually identify the event itself. c:File:Butler Farm Show Airport Trump Rally 2024 03 (cropped).jpg is a suitable free alternative infobox photo for Attempted assassination of Donald Trump, so this non-free photo should not be used there. It's perfectly fine, though, that we use this non-free photo in the section where it is mentioned on that article, and in the new article about photography at the rally if it is kept. Because of the level of coverage and commentary on this specific photo, it would still be fine even if free angles of Trump in those moments became available alongside it. 3df (talk) 00:51, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Delete NFCC is clear here. We cannot keep it according to policy. Abzeronow (talk) 01:22, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Strong Keep per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Ignore_all_rules and this photo being shared on multiple major news sites and its perception as historic to events. I feel Wikipedia would do a disservice to readers by deleting.2601:600:8F83:16A0:778D:327F:BDD0:C0A5 (talk) 01:32, 15 July 2024 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:600:8F83:16A0:778D:327F:BDD0:C0A5 (talk)
 * Keep There is sourced commentary about the image at Attempted assassination of Donald Trump, and the image's presence would significantly increase readers' understanding of the article topic (NFCC #8). Some1 (talk) 01:44, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Delete. Based on the discussion here it seems that Trump Pumping His Fist may itself deserve its own page, with this image. But until/unless that page exists it should be deleted. I think (generally) that we should try to develop a mechanism for asking institutions like the NYT release images like this, in this quality, in our capacity as a collective body of English Wikipedia editors. A request like this makes sense for all parties involved. GordonGlottal (talk) 01:59, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * - Just a note that the article does exist: Trump raised fist photographs. Mr rnddude (talk) 02:13, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep This photo is *the* image of the assassination attempt, which - as a historical event - consists of more than the "when, where, and how." The event's primary effect on history is and will continue to be political, and this image captures that context perfectly.
 * Moreover, the image itself serves as an efficient summary of the notable sequence of events: the bullet grazed President Trump's ear, the Secret Service swarmed in, and President Trump reacted by pumping his fist at his supporters. I suspect that we would not be having this discussion if the subject of the picture were not Donald Trump. Likewise, I feel that there would be less consternation if the image made Trump look bad. Arguments to the contrary strike me as bad faith pedantry, and may contribute to this site's already diminished standing among the general public. 2601:248:4B00:F320:697D:2F5F:A0E1:DEDD (talk) 01:12, 15 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Keep on the article Trump raised fist photographs, which satisfies the condition of "subject of commentary". Remove from Attempted assassination of Donald Trump per minimum usage guidelines. S5A-0043 Talk 02:26, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep While Vucci did copyright this photograph, it is being used to illustrate "historically significant events", which is an acceptable use of non-free content on Wikipedia as per WP:NOTFREE. The Star Baron (talk) 03:24, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * @The Star Baron that is not what is stated at Non-free historic image. It should only be used in the context of commentary about the image, not the event itself. The use is acceptable only on the newly-created article Trump raised fist photographs, but the article itself is slapped with AfD. JWilz12345 (Talk|Contrib's.) 03:51, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * The acceptable uses of non-free content as listed in the second paragraph of WP:FU/WP:NOTFREE includes "illustrating historically significant events". Even if that was the only market role of Vucci's, the article has since expanded to describe commentary about the attempt and its impact beyond just describing the event itself. But if/once there is a freely licensed version of the photo then that should definitely replace the Vucci one, as per that same paragraph. The Star Baron (talk) 23:03, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Weak Keep Although I understand how the image could possibly affect the og's commercial value, it's of my claim of WP:IAR and personal opinion that it should be kept anyways. This image is an important historical event highlighting the increasing political violence in America and the first assassination attempt to a US president since 1981, forty three years ago. It's worth keeping imo for it's notable value, but I still do recognize the danger of IAR'ing for fair use which is why I'm leaving my vote as weak. I wouldn't be surprised if we find consensus to delete it. TheWikiToby (talk) 03:35, 15 July 2024 (UTC) Strong Keep, but Remove from the assassination article. Now that the time for news organizations to buy the image has passed, the image passes NFCC#2, especially after the failed AFD of the actual article on the image. However, removing the image from the assassination page would better conform with non-free policy. It's not that hard for readers to click one link to immediately find the image. TheWikiToby (talk) 23:56, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Strong Keep Historically important image. --Angelcustom (talk) 05:24, 15 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Keep I'm not even that big a fan of Trump, actually, I'm no fan of his at all, but anyone denying that this is incredibly salient to the assassination attempt is playing politics with Wikipedia's standards. If not this image to encapsulate the attempt, then which? When most people think about the assassination attempt, this is the image that comes to mind. Let's not be ridiculous here. Suliram (talk) 06:00, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep I believe this to be the clear answer. Or at least an image similar to this. It summarizes the event and the aftermath. Trump got a bloody ear and is still trying to put his fist up in the air and say something. He also did this right after getting pushed into the car. Like, they were pushing him into the car and then he resisted it and pumped his fist before they pushed him into the car for safety. He then said something like "Fuck them!" my Mom said the news reported. I personally hate Trump and the politics he stands for yet there is something about the image of the resilience to the shooting that reminds me of Teddy Roosevelt and his response to a bullet in his chest. (Which a Fox News source which was on the living room TV had brought up.) Teddy was resilient and able to perform a speech and said "it takes more than a bullet to stop a Bull Moose." This was before the time of broader security for the [POTUS]. I believe that a similar image in the article depicting him trying to stay outside the car would be also be useful in some section of the Wiki article here. To show his resilience again. All in all, I believe there to be significant purpose to the image here. And, my thoughts go out to all those hurt in the incident, the former President, the shooter, the innocent attendees, etc. I just wish the US wouldn't allow such a man as the politics of Mr. Trump that put in danger the rights and lives of many minority, queer, and ethnic Americans. My deepest thoughts go out to the victims families at this time, especially the attendee who lost his life. And the shooter who lost his life for a cause that he clearly believed a lot in. I hope he finds peace somehow and condolences to his family/loved ones at this time for their loss as well. HelloHamburger (talk) 07:12, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * None of this has anything to do with why you think this meets our very strict fair use criteria outlined at WP:NFC. Curbon7 (talk) 07:44, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep MEets fair use criteria, a historic image and is the key focus of the Trump raised fist photographs article.  The C of E God Save the King!  ( talk ) 08:14, 15 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Keep My understanding is that we can have it as leadimage at Trump raised fist photographs, but that's it. If that article is deleted, the pic goes too. I think when the Mug shot of Donald Trump pic appeared, it was added on several WP-articles, but they were removed per the non-free rules. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:57, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep per others -- ZZZ'S 13:23, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep As we have other copyrighted historic images that aren’t in articles discussing the image. This will very likely become an iconic image. So I think it’ll qualify as fair use. NathanBru (talk)
 * Note: Trump raised fist photographs was WP:SNOW-kept at AFD. This FFD may also be SNOW-kept per WP:NFCI #8 and #9. Levivich (talk) 13:44, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * WP:NFCI is not about closing discussions. The guideline for when to SNOW-close is at WP:EARLY. —Alalch E. 13:48, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * NFCI 8 and 9 is why "the outcome of the deletion discussion is, or has become, almost certain, such that there is not a "snowball's chance in hell" that the outcome will be anything other than what is expected, and there is clearly no need at all to prolong discussion further," to quote the SNOW part of EARLY. NFCI is the global consensus that makes this an obvious and inevitable keep outcome (because there is an article about the photographs, which will not be deleted). Levivich (talk) 13:55, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * We are at "highly likely" but not at "almost certain".—Alalch E. 13:59, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * What is the "genuine and reasoned basis for disagreement"? Because it's not NFCC, since there is now consensus that it's a notable artwork. Levivich (talk) 14:06, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I was going to write a defense of the deletes so as to say how they are not the opposite of reasoned, but after a reread of the discussion, and considering the change of circumstances, I can only concede to your point. —Alalch E. 14:26, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * The article is about photographs, plural. It's about the significance of the images, not of this one in particular. It's still very early - there's no reason to assume that no image of the event will be released under a free license just because none was released immediately. So it fails NFCC #1. Guettarda (talk) 15:28, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * The article is about Vucci's photographs. Someone else's photographs are not a reasonable equivalent. WP:NFCI 8/9 is the guideline that says this meets WP:NFCC 1 and all the other NFCCs. These are notable artworks, there can be no substitute. An image of the event is not a substitute for Vucci's photographs. Any time Wikipedia has articles about notable artworks, it has pictures of those artworks in the articles, and it's fair use. That's the global consensus documented at NFCI 8 and 9. Levivich (talk) 15:41, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep unless there's a DMCA claim If the Associated Press raises an issue about copyright infringement, only then would I say should it be summarily deleted. Barring that, it has very quickly reached a de facto public domain status as a result of its memetic-like spread. It'd be foolish to suppress it. Schiffy  ( Speak to me &#124; What I've done ) 13:50, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * That's not the way Wikipedia policy on non-free content works. Guettarda (talk) 15:19, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * i think the image is important and should be kept. however, if its not licensed under a free license, then we have a problem and the photo should not be kept. Mateusmatsuda (talk) 16:07, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * There are tens of thousands of images on Wikipedia whichare not "under a free license".  Do you propose we also remove all of them? I percieve more than a little WP:IDONTLIKEIT going on in this discussion. Marcus Markup (talk) 14:55, 17 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Keep. I would agree with MrThe1And0nly on his stance, and I do believe that historical significance of the photograph would suppress, at least significantly enough for WMF projects' purposes, outstanding NFCC#2 pieces.  Invading Invader  (userpage, talk) 19:04, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Comment. It's possible that this file was taken by a government person, it makes this file in the public domain, but I'm not sure. Manchesterunited1234 (talk) 19:11, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * It was taken by Vucci, who works for Associated Press.  Bremps  ...  19:14, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep An iconic image of these times. --Uglytriangle999 (talk) 19:54, 15 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Keep as discussion of the photograph itself and its cultural reception is both present in the article and necessary for understanding the impact of the incident. --Yellow Diamond Δ Direct Line to the Diamonds  20:42, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Delete - so if a photographer's copyrighted work has been spread around social media enough, it's ok to post it here. Mr. Vucci may decide to sue outlets that run his photograph without permission. I'll stay with those who vote delete, but it would be a shame to see Wikipedia have to defend this unwise position.ProfessorKaiFlai (talk) 00:20, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * No, this is not what a fair use rationale is. It has absolutely nothing to do with being "spread around social media enough" -- we are using an extremely tiny thumbnail (27 kilobytes, far smaller than the text of this deletion argument) which in no way competes with the commercial use of the photo, for a directly relevant critical analysis of it. This is, definitionally, protected by copyright law -- that's literally what "fair use" is. It does not require any permission whatsoever on the part of rights holders. <b style="font-family: monospace; color:#E35BD8"><b style="color:#029D74">jp</b>×<b style="color: #029D74">g</b>🗯️</b> 05:48, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep. It is now solely used for discussions on the photograph itself, and the photograph is clearly non-replaceable for such a purpose. NasssaNser 01:26, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Delete per WP:NFCC. —   Fourthords  &#124; =Λ= &#124; 02:26, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep. Now that Trump raised-fist photographs exists and was kept at AfD, this very clearly is an irreplaceable file that that is discussed in text as an article's subject. As no free equivalent exists, the content is appropriately used there, and the quality of the image uploaded is small enough so as to respect commercial opportunities of the copyright holder and constitute minimum extent of use, I think that this file should be kept as in line with WP:NFCCP. — Red-tailed hawk  (nest) 15:19, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep Clearly historical and irreplaceable; useful for the article about the photo itself in an appropriate low-res format. Buffs (talk) 15:46, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep on Trump raised fist photographs (although I don't think that article should exist at all I've clearly been outvoted there). Remove from Attempted assassination of Donald Trump per WP:NFC#6. I'm not following the NFCC#2 issue on the photograph article itself. * Pppery * <sub style="color:#800000">it has begun... 17:26, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Comment Is it time to close this now? All the arguments have been stated. As an AP photograph, it has a commercial purpose - driving page views on news websites - and I think Wikipedia should come to a decision quickly about whether our use of it does show due respect for the commerical opportunities for the copyright holder, and all of the other nine WP:NFCCP criteria. Hallucegenia (talk) 21:41, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep as fair use for the article Trump raised-fist photographs as the image in question lit is the subject of the article. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 22:50, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep, falls under the fair use doctrine. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:George_Floyd_neck_knelt_on_by_police_officer.png or even the Trump mugshot, which were both kept under fair use. Why not this one? Historyexpert2 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Historyexpert2 (talk • contribs) 02:28, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep on Trump raised-fist photographs and remove from Attempted assassination of Donald Trump. Per Pppery; the case is much more straightforward now that the separate article exists and the AfD has ended (though my condolences to the closer of this who has to decide how to weigh earlier arguments). Dylnuge  (Talk • Edits) 18:38, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep - *only* for the article Trump raised-fist photographs, as long as the article fits WP:NOTABILITY guidelines. The photo should not be used on other articles such as Attempted assassination of Donald Trump, since there are other free equivalents that can be used per WP:NFCCP  MetropolitanIC  (💬&#124;📝) 23:19, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * What are the other free equivalents? TheWikiToby (talk) 23:59, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I concur with this, and emphasize that counterproposals seem to carry connotations of personal distaste towards the cinematic properties of the photo per se, rather than specific policy. The longer this drags on, as it's clear this photo is exceptionally historic, the more users who would otherwise vote Delete will try to score pyrrhic victories by suggesting alternatives that may seem less glamorous and more boring, for lack of a better term. I hesitate yet drift towards calling WP:SNOW here. <b style="color:DarkGoldenRod;">~Sıgehelmus♗</b><b style="color:CornflowerBlue">(Tøk)</b> 00:08, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
 * To be honest, my brain is struggling to entirely comprehend what you're saying here. TheWikiToby (talk) 00:17, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I can't speak for anyone else with certainty, but the comment can probably be distilled down to "some editors think this photo glamorizes Trump, thus they will try to replace this photo with a worse one." Not endorsing this specific line of thinking necessarily, but just replying to your comment about User:Sigehelmus being unclear.  Bremps  ...  01:27, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks! I understand now. TheWikiToby (talk) 01:43, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I believe the specific "if we have an article about a non-free photo, it's unacceptable to use that photo on other articles" guideline is WP:NFC #6, so, yeah. Kingsif (talk) 02:37, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep. This was incorrectly being used as the infobox image in Attempted assassination of Donald Trump, and thus could not legitimately be considered fair use for the topic. Since it's now only being used in the subsection "Raised fist photographs", as well as the article of the same name, it is now clearly meets the criteria of fair use, as the image is being used to discuss the image itself (as well as the author in question) and is therefore of high contextual significance in order to increase the understanding of the topic for the reader (being that of the image). As the discussion was otherwise initiated prior to the image being moved from the infobox of the assassination article to the relevant section, the closer should be aware that the keep/delete arguments based on infobox usage are now redundant. CNC (talk) 10:20, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I'd say calling the earlier !votes (that have not been updated) "redundant" is too far. The closer will be able to use them to make a decision in their close as to the validity of fair use rationale for different locations, possibly dictating what the file can be used for in future, for example. Those earlier un-updated !votes are still valid views on the file's usage. Kingsif (talk) 10:48, 18 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Keep; This picture is necessary to show the Assassination Attempt clearly. By Piruty Pipaty (talk) 03:40, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
 * keep there is no alternative pictures of Trump during the shooting and this is a historical picture, it can stay under fair use. Shadow4dark (talk) 07:36, 19 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Replace cropped version with low-res full image. You can see the full image here. I don't know enough about NFCC to have an opinion on keeping or deleting the image, but cropping a Secret Service agent and the hands and part of the arms of the other agents out of the picture turns it into a different picture. I doubt that the photographer would give his permission for it. Space4Time3Continuum2x 🖖 11:55, 19 July 2024 (UTC). The Guardian image is also slightly cropped at the bottom. The immediate source of the WP download appears to be a screenshot of the image on Business Insider; the image's caption says "Photograph: Evan Vucci/AP".  Space4Time3Continuum2x 🖖 12:24, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep only in article Trump raised-fist photographs which is an article about the photo (and related photos) of which no free version exists or is likely to be found. Remove from Attempted assassination of Donald Trump not meeting NFCC8 "Contextual significance. Non-free content is used only if its presence would significantly increase readers' understanding of the article topic" - the photo is critical to understanding the article about the photo(s), but not to the article about the assassination attempt itself. Consigned (talk) 22:03, 19 July 2024 (UTC)


 * I don't think this close was appropriate for an non-adminsitrator to make and have requested it be reviewed at WP:AN. My request has nothing to do with the result; rather there are strong arguments made by both sides, and it would be better to leave the close to an administrator more familiar with relevant policies and more familiar with WP:FFDAI. This was not really the right discussion for a non-administrator who seens to have very little experience at FFD to chose to make their first FFD close by simply stating "keep" or "delete". -- Marchjuly (talk) 06:15, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * The close has now been undone. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 07:31, 16 July 2024 (UTC)


 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the file's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this section.

File:Deir Suryan mural.jpeg
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 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more files. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the file's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the discussion was: Speedy delete. —Cryptic 14:24, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * File:Deir Suryan mural.jpeg ([ delete] | talk | [ history] | links | [ logs]) &#x20;– uploaded by CltFn ( [ notify] | contribs | uploads | upload log).

Source of image is http://www.christoph-heger.de/Note_on_the_Huris.htm which states "Foto/courtesy Andrea Barbara Schmidt". Clearly not own work of uploader, but am listing it here due to the age of the upload. Johnj1995 (talk) 04:28, 14 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Speedy delete under WP:F9. Adabow (talk) 05:47, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the file's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this section.

File:VivziePop YouTube profile picture.jpg
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The result of the discussion was: Delete; deleted by AnomieBOT ⚡  16:23, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
 * File:VivziePop YouTube profile picture.jpg ([ delete] | talk | [ history] | links | [ logs]) &#x20;– uploaded by LunaEclipse ( [ notify] | contribs | uploads | upload log).

Non-free icon used to illustrate the infobox of a living person, for which freely licensed images could be created. Fails the NFCC. The Squirrel Conspiracy (talk) 06:50, 14 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Comment May count as a significant part of the YouTuber's branding.  Bremps  ...  07:12, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Speedy delete under WP:F7. Profile picture is non-free content from a commercial source (her monetized YouTube channel) and is not the subject of sourced commentary. — Kodiak Blackjack (talk) • (contribs) 08:37, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Delete, this is essentially using a fair use image to illustrate a living person which fails NFCC. Di (they-them) (talk) 12:04, 14 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Delete as the article does not concern the logo itself, but rather the individual using it. Redtree21 (talk) 12:53, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Delete. Fails NFCC criteria 8: Non-free content is used only if its presence would significantly increase readers' understanding of the article topic, and its omission would be detrimental to that understanding. Including her YouTube profile picture does not add to readers' understanding of the article's contents, nor does removing it hurt their understanding. --Delta1989 (talk) (contributions) 19:58, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Convincing enough. Delete  Bremps  ...  02:30, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Delete Per Redtree's reasoning. If anything should be in that infobox it should be Medrano's face. Schiffy  ( Speak to me &#124; What I've done ) 20:04, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the file's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this section.

File:Hcalvinasgarcia.jpg

 * File:Hcalvinasgarcia.jpg ([ delete] | talk | [ history] | links | [ logs]) &#x20;– uploaded by Mavarin ( [ notify] | contribs | uploads | upload log).

Non-free screenshot being used in a WP:DECORATIVE manner in Henry Calvin; the file is also being used in Zorro (1957 TV series). This file was uploaded in 2007 and was being used as the main infobox image for the "Henry Cavin" article, but was replaced by the Commons image File:Henry Calvin (1946-1947).jpg after the non-free was removed by with this edit in January 2023. Explicit also removed the non-free use rationale for the "Calvin" article with this edit. The file was, however, re-added by with this edit in January 2024, without giving a reason and without adding a non-free use rationale for the use to the file's page. The use in the "Calvin" article, therefore, fails WP:NFCC, and the file could be removed for that reason alone. After consulting with Explicit about this at User talk:Explicit, it was recommended that the file's uses be discussed here at FFD because of concerns that the non-free use in the "Zorro" article might also not be policy compliant. I don't think there's any justification for the non-free use in the "Calvin" article, but the use in the "Zorro" article seems borderline to me given that the character "Sergeant Demetrio Lopez Garcia" is listed as a main character. Since no stand-alone article exists about the "Garcia" character, I guess it could be argued the argument for non-free use in the article about the TV show is a bit weak; perhaps a non-free full-cast photo like this, or a publicity still like the ones shown here could be found that is PD-US-no notice or PD-US-not renewed given that the show ran from 1957 to 1959 which would make any non-free image unnecessary. -- Marchjuly (talk) 11:45, 14 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Delete Yeah, the full-cast photo is the far better route.  Bremps  ...  12:04, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

File:Decastar.gif
<div class="archived boilerplate ffd vfd xfd-closed mw-archivedtalk" style="background-color:#f3f9ff; margin:1em 0 0 0; padding:0 10px 0 10px; border:1px solid #aaa;">
 * The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more files. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the file's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the discussion was: Delete; deleted as F5 by AnomieBOT ⚡  01:01, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
 * File:Decastar.gif ([ delete] | talk | [ history] | links | [ logs]) &#x20;– uploaded by Sillyfolkboy ( [ notify] | contribs | uploads | upload log).

Poor quality file upload, now replaced in purpose by File:Decastar_Official_Logo.png SFB 23:50, 14 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Delete Obsolete.  Bremps  ...  01:21, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Strong Keep  per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Ignore_all_rules and this photo being shared on multiple major news sites and its perception as historic to events. I feel Wikipedia would do a disservice to readers by deleting.2601:600:8F83:16A0:778D:327F:BDD0:C0A5 (talk) 01:32, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I think you voted on the wrong image, unless you feel very strongly about Decastar.  Bremps  ...  02:29, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * If it's not used in any article, it will be deleted soon anyway. Kingsif (talk) 01:47, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Delete Seems clear-cut to me. Bad quality, not used, replaced. The fact that it's a gif for a static logo is also off-putting. Sometimes these don't even need discussions, imo. Schiffy  ( Speak to me &#124; What I've done ) 19:59, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
 * The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the file's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this section.