Wikipedia:Good article reassessment/Albert Kesselring/1

Albert Kesselring

 * • [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Good_article_reassessment/Albert_Kesselring/1&action=watch Watch article reassessment page] • Most recent review
 * Result: The article can't be delisted because the nominator has quit and no one else is advocating delist. So it will be kept. (t &#183; c)  buidhe  13:28, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

I am requesting a community reassessment of the Kesselring article because I wish to challenge the outcome of Talk:Albert Kesselring/GA3, completed 19 October 2020. I believe that the reviewer Lazman321 has failed to consider the points raised in the previous review at Talk:Albert Kesselring/GA2, completed 13 April 2020. Also, I'm not convinced that the reviewer has taken full account of the featured article review in December last year. The main contributor to the article is Hawkeye7 who is of course invited to take part in this GAR.

I am very doubtful about GA3 because the reviewer is a relatively new editor who lacks experience of the site and its review process. The article failed GA2 and I am unconvinced that it has been substantially improved. As I was the GA2 reviewer and am in effect a major contributor to the article, I would like to invite community input to establish a consensus on whether or not this article meets the GA criteria.

GA2 failed for two main reasons. First, a key condition of GACR#1 is "understandable to an appropriately broad audience" and the article was a long way from achieving that because, frankly, it was muddled and lacked narrative flow. Also, it had been written under the assumption that all readers would have a detailed knowledge of the history and terminology of World War II. Second, GACR#2b requires that "all inline citations are from reliable sources, including those for controversial statements that are challenged or likely to be challenged", but there were several controversial statements from an unreliable source used many times throughout and the use of that source meant that most if not all of those statements required citation (additional or replacement) from a reliable secondary source. I might add that the article was not at all well-written in terms of prose, spelling, grammar, syntax, etc. because it had not been proof-read and copyedited properly before being nominated – in the GA2 review, there was a huge stack of these issues but they alone were not a reason for immediate failure.

While GA2 attracted numerous comments, I did not bother to check what had been done to improve the article because I assumed it would be renominated in due course. In fact, it was renominated within a day or so, which led me to think the issues could not have been fully addressed. No matter, as I expected that it would be scrutinised in future by an experienced reviewer who would, as a matter of course, check that the GA2 issues had been addressed. I don't believe that has happened and so I would like a community consensus on the matter.

In GA3, Lazman says he "could read the article and understand what it is saying". It may well be that, like myself, Lazman has an extensive knowledge of WWII but my point was that the article was not understandable to a broad audience and Lazman has apparently not even considered that. By the way, although some people might object to him utilising Grammarly to help him with grammar, spelling and syntax, I do know that the product is considered "okay" within the publishing industry. I don't think that "all the MOS that need to be followed for GA status is followed in this article" is an adequate summary given all of the problems found in GA2. The question of reliable sources has not been adequately explored in the light of the GA2 findings.

I think the essential problem here is the same syndrome that was discussed at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Good_articles/GAN Backlog Drives/October 2020 in that an inexperienced editor has bitten off much more than he can chew and has produced a review of insufficient depth and standard. At the time of doing GA3, Lazman321 had made around 250 edits having been a member for six months. As was pointed out to him in this talk page discussion by both Peacemaker67 and Chris Troutman, his lack of experience should have given him cause to think twice about attempting to review such a contentious and complex article. He expressed a willingness to step down if someone else would take over, which is fair enough, but then went ahead because there were no immediate takers. Lazman had already begun the GA3 review by saying that it was part of the backlog drive but that was no reason to assume that there was any urgency because, with 285 unreviewed nominations at the end of that drive, there were plenty more nominations he could have picked up which would have been within his capabilities.

Given the similarity to the SurenGrig case, I would like to invite comments here by those who took part in that discussion: BlueMoonset, Chris Troutman, Eddie891, Harrias, Hog Farm, Kingsif, Lee Vilenski, Mccunicano, Usedtobecool, Venicescapes, Vincent60030, Wasted Time R.

Thank you for your time. No Great Shaker (talk) 13:11, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you for inviting me for comments. Let me take a look at it tomorrow :D Warm regards, Vincent LUFan (talk) (Kenton!) 14:57, 13 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks, . No rush. All the best. No Great Shaker (talk) 11:17, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the ping. While I don't agree with some of the characterisations of the state of the article by NGS and some of the reviewers at FAR, I agree that Lazman321 lacks the demonstrated experience to complete a comprehensive and appropriate GAN of this article, given its extensive review history, and particularly the controversial aspects and the need to critically evaluate some of what I consider to be fringe views expressed in the FAR. Which is why I attempted to warn Lazman321 against taking it on. The GAN had lingered at the top of the Milhist GANs for quite some time due to the complexities and controversial nature of the article and its history. The best solution to a GAN of this article is for one experienced reviewer from Milhist who has been uninvolved in the promotion and demotion reviews to undertake it, with a second opinion from an uninvolved but experienced non-Milhist GAN reviewer. In both cases, it would be preferable if they also had extensive experience reviewing at FAC as well, as I expect that if successful at GAN, it may later be renominated at FAC. It might be necessary before the GAN commences to conduct one or two RfCs to establish a solid community consensus on the use of a couple of sources that have been challenged in the FAR. A promotion (or fail) by such a team once the sources issue has been resolved should be robust enough to survive challenges from the more fringe criticisms of the article expressed by some reviewers, and reflect a solid consensus which should stick and enable a foundation for higher-level reviews. This would require the nominator to sign up for the recommended course of action, of course, which he may not wish to do. Nevertheless, I think it is probably the only way forward for this article. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:16, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Hello, . I think these are great suggestions. We really could do with the help of someone who is well-versed in the Milhist project. I must admit I'm unfamiliar with RfC procedure but if it can be used to gain a ruling on source reliability, then that could be half the battle. Thanks very much and all the best. No Great Shaker (talk) 11:17, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the invitation to participate in the discussion. I should point out that I am not at all versed in the topic and that I have an instinctive aversion to the historical period. So I personally found the article daunting. Regardless, I do agree with No Great Shaker that the article presumes a certain degree of expertise and familiarity with the topic and that it is not suited to a broad audience. For much of the information, the relevance is not immediately clear, and it comes across as minutiae. In many instances, it seems that the article is no longer a biography but a larger discussion on policies and strategies. It might be advisable to move some details into the notes. Independently of the article’s merits or faults, there is, in my opinion, an underlying problem. The GA2 review raised explicit concerns which do not appear to have been considered in the GA3 review. Those concerns should have been specifically addressed — either rebutted or resolved.Venicescapes (talk) 09:28, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
 * GA2 was conducted in bad faith. Nonetheless, all issues were addressed. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  19:52, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Hello again, . I think you've hit a few nails right on their heads there. Thanks very much and all the best. No Great Shaker (talk) 11:17, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
 * The GA3 review was conducted thoroughly, conscientiously and well by Lazman32, who did a fine job, and is to be congratulated for taking on the task. All issues raised were addressed. The article is not difficult to read nor follow. In is not anticipated that someone without knowledge of World War II would seek out information on such an individual, so the article presumes a broad knowledge of the conflict that in any case can be obtained from reading the main article on the war. GA is a low bar, but many reviewers conduct a review as if it were FAC; this is a common problem. Generally the nominee will accept such comments in the spirit of generally improving the article, but it is unreasonable to review a GA against FAC criteria. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  19:52, 14 November 2020 (UTC)


 * Well, maybe I'm a suspicious old beast but it seems a bit too coincidental to me that Lazman made his first edit on 20 April 2020, which was only a week after GA2 was completed and six days after the article was renominated. Looking at Lazman's early contributions, he doesn't seem to have struggled too much with the complexities that this site presents to a new member – I recall that it took me quite a while to feel "on board" even though I had been a guest editor for several years beforehand – and he began as if he had "never been away". I wonder how?


 * When Peacemaker and Chris Troutman challenged Lazman's ability to take on this GA review he responded that "I would personally say that I do have some competence when it comes to Wikipedia". After only 250 or so edits? I recall that after that many edits I was still wondering what the bloody hell I had let myself in for! With my academic, IT and publishing background, I think I should really have hit the ground running, but this site does take some finding out. Okay, maybe I'm not so smart afer all and there are people who can just sail in and carry on as if they have already done 103,326 edits.


 * So, we come to the actual GA3 "review" and Lazman begins at 7:26 pm, 12 October 2020 with a "confession". An hour later, Hawkeye7 responds and Lazman is on with the review, finishing it within 24 hours although, second thoughts, he has not finished it and will do that "tomorrow" (on the 14th).


 * As it happens, it is not until 5:17 am on the 19th that Lazman presents his report and yet, just over one hour later, Hawkeye7 is there to make his responses and, same day, Lazman passes the review because "all issues have been taken care of". In the end, hey presto, it has sailed through apart from one minor copy issue which has ever so easily been "paraphrased".


 * Now, at the GAR page, Hawkeye7 says "GA2 was conducted in bad faith". Really? Do I need to defend myself against a "bad faith" accusation or did I just carry out a review and provide a rationale for my decision to reject the nomination? I even earned a barnstar for that review! He says that "GA3 was conducted thoroughly, conscientiously and well by Lazman32, who did a fine job, and is to be congratulated for taking on the task" before going on to complain that GA reviewers are utilising FAC criteria. I think GA2 is adamant that it is using the WP:GACR as when it specifies "understandable to an appropriately broad audience" within GACR#1a. The criteria checklist I used in GA2 is entirely based on WP:GACR and has no connection whatsoever with FAC.


 * I suggest that a sysop with checkuser functionality is needed to investigate the relationship between Hawkeye7 and Lazman, just be sure this isn't an SPI case. Or is that "bad faith"? No Great Shaker (talk) 22:50, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Go ahead, No Great Shaker. Go ahead and list me in the Sockpuppet investigations list. Go ahead and have a reviewer use checkuser on me and Hawkeye7. Just ask yourself this. Why would an experienced editor with tons of featured, A-class, and good articles to his credit create a sockpuppet user a week after re-nominating Albert Kesselring and wait two months before having the sockpuppet user work on getting "Levels (Avicii song)" to GA status along with other edits before eventually reviewing Albert Kesselring and passing it. If you still believe that I am a sockpuppet user of Hawkeye7, then go ahead, No Great Shaker. Go ahead and list me in the Sockpuppet investigation list. Lazman321 (talk) 07:03, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
 * you need to pull your head in. There is nothing whatsoever to indicate that Hawkeye7 is using a sock. And stop comparing Hawkeye7 to Trump. As far as I am concerned, that is a personal attack. Just play the article content not the man. Thanks, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:04, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
 * This has gone off the rails. Come back please with a good service as there are severe delays now. Vincent LUFan (talk) (Kenton!) 07:13, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

If the GAR is to continue, I think Hawkeye7 should provide a full rationale for his view that the GA2 review was "conducted in bad faith" because this has a direct bearing on the article and on the subsequent GA3 review. Unless anyone has a question that needs a personal response from me, I am withdrawing from this discussion. Please ping me if I'm needed. Thanks. No Great Shaker (talk) 10:47, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
 * That is hopeless, . You initiate a GAR, making broad sweeping statements unsupported by any specific material or examples, and then withdraw. This should just be closed. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 05:53, 16 November 2020 (UTC)