Wikipedia:Good article reassessment/BGM-75 AICBM/1

BGM-75 AICBM

 * • [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Good_article_reassessment/BGM-75_AICBM/1&action=watch Watch article reassessment page] • Most recent review
 * Result: Keep. This discussion is less focused than many GA reviews, debating "meta" questions as much or more than the individual article; I'm hesitant to summarize a discussion where almost no one talked in terms of keeping or delisting. It seems safe to say, however, that at a minimum there's no consensus to delist here, and the article is therefore kept. Khazar2 (talk) 19:47, 11 November 2013 (UTC)


 * I think the last paragraph could be rewritten for more clarity: "After the cancellation of the WS-120A, no further development of new ICBMs was to be done until 1972, when the M-X project, which became the LGM-118 Peacekeeper, was begun.[1] The Peacekeeper entered service in the mid-1980s, and served until 2005,[6] the Minuteman family of ICBMs outlasting both of its planned replacements in service.[7]" What does "no further development of new ICBMs was to be done until 1972" mean? Was further development prohibited by some bill or treaty? Or simply didn't happen? As for the last sentence, its meaning is clear but it is a run-on sentence. The 2nd sentence of the lead "Intended to replace the LGM-30 Minuteman as the Air Force's standard ICBM, funding for the program was not allocated and the project was cancelled in 1967." is also a run-on sentence. Someone not using his real name (talk) 21:43, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
 * See how the last paragraph reads now.
 * As for why no further development, I haven't seen anything conclusive, but I'd wager that the demands of Vietnam (Rolling Thunder, particularly) diverted the Air Force's attention (and more importantly, budget). As far as I know, there were no treaties or laws passed in the period that prevented further development (SALT I wasn't signed until 1972, for instance). Parsecboy (talk) 01:07, 11 August 2013 (UTC)
 * One of the web pages cited as reference itself cites a book by James N. Gibson: "Nuclear Weapons of the United States", Schiffer Publishing Ltd, 1996. Has anyone checked that out? Someone not using his real name (talk) 22:43, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't have any copies in my local library system, but I did check the snippet view for WS-120A, BGM-75, and AICBM and got nothing. Might still be there, but not that I can confirm without actually seeing the book. Maybe User:The Bushranger can get a copy. Parsecboy (talk) 01:07, 11 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, as I've mentioned before, Podunkville Public Library tends to get lolno'd when it comes to interlibrary loan requests, but I'll see what I can do. - The Bushranger One ping only 14:55, 12 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Also, a Google Books search suggests quite a few books and magazines cover this topic, so perhaps the claim of having exhausted the sources is premature. This book in particular suggests a possible infighting/politicking reasons why the program was created. Someone not using his real name (talk) 23:11, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
 * That seems to be a highly dubious claim, given that STRAT-X recommended both the Navy's ULSM and the Air Force's BGM-75/WS-120A. If McNamara authorized STRAT-X to kill the Air Force missile program, and it instead recommended it, that was a giant miscalculation, though, again, since the author doesn't seem to know the conclusions of STRAT-X (or at least does not mention them apart from those that affected the Navy).
 * Nevertheless, I have added a bit more to the article from a couple of books. Parsecboy (talk) 01:07, 11 August 2013 (UTC)
 * It's quite possible there's more in gBooks now than there was when I started the article, I'll take a look when I get a chance. One problem is that my muse is currently "off" when it comes to stuff that goes zoom and/or boom, but I'll get out the squeaky hammer and see what can be done about that. - The Bushranger One ping only 14:55, 12 August 2013 (UTC)
 * The claim of unknown size is also dubious given "Initially the WS 120A had been sized (116 in. in diameter) to fit in the current Minuteman silos "and leave a little rattle space."" found in the above search (in Hearings, Reports and Prints of the House Committee on Appropriations - Volume 90, Parts 1-2 - Page 788). Someone not using his real name (talk) 23:15, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Also, it appears that 95% of the sources in GB cover this under the WS-120A designation rather than any of the other ones, so perhaps the article should be renamed as well. Someone not using his real name (talk) 23:26, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Sounds fair to me. It does seem as though most sources refer to it by that designation.
 * And the AICBM moniker applied to the MX/Peacekeeper too   so that's probably not the best nomenclature to lead with in any case. Someone not using his real name (talk) 23:48, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I saw it suggested somewhere (can't recall where exactly now) that MX/Peacekeeper was a re-started WS-120A, and so the shared designation was correct. Don't know if that's true though. Parsecboy (talk) 01:07, 11 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I checked out James N. Gibson's "Nuclear Weapons of the United States". He covers the WS-120A in a couple of paragraphs of in the introduction to the section on MX/Peacekeeper (p. 29). There isn't anything important there not already included in this article. Here's basically all of the coverage: "Even before development of the Minuteman III began, on 23 October 1963 Headquarters SAC issued a Qualitative Operational Requirement for a large payload ICBM. Two years later, on 13 July 1965, a second QOR was issued for a mobile ICBM. In April of 1966 development then began on Weapon System 120A: an advanced ICBM that used a mobile basing system or hardened silos. On 4 October 1967, development of the Advanced ICBM was blocked by Secretary of Defense McNamara. In its place was begun a program to develop a hard rock basing system for the Minuteman III. Research into a new ICBM did not begin again until 2 November 1971 when the Air Force submitted ROC report 16-71. [a quote from this report follows] As a result of this report, in February of 1972 initial development of the Peacekeeper began." Someone not using his real name (talk) 12:34, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Since the reason this was nominated here is that it is short, this issue should be specifically addressed. FunkMonk (talk) 11:52, 11 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Length is not a Good Article criteria. There, that has been specifically addressed. Parsecboy (talk) 12:18, 11 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree, but Snowman seems to think otherwise. FunkMonk (talk) 12:20, 11 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Snowman also doesn't know what the GA criteria are, so I think we can safely disregard his objection. Parsecboy (talk) 13:08, 11 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Then this would be a good place to demonstrate it, because it is the sole reason he nominated the article. Rather that than wasting more time on submitting short articles in the future. FunkMonk (talk) 13:10, 11 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Easy: WP:WIAGA. Parsecboy (talk) 13:55, 11 August 2013 (UTC)
 * If Snowman's sole justification for initiating this reassessment is the article's length then he was quite wrong to start it. The issue isn't length but completeness, and I have some reservations about that myself. But GA reviewers are supposed to review against the GA criteria, which do not include anything about length. Eric   Corbett  13:39, 11 August 2013 (UTC)
 * To start the community GAR, I listed where I thought the article was not compliant with good article criteria on 9 August 2013. You may wish to refer to my opening comments that listed remarks about the article with relevant GA criteria. Article length did not feature in my opening comments and I am aware that article length is not one of the GA criteria. I think that it is better to put my opening comments and all the early discussion of this GAR in a show/hide box at the top of this GAR than on the talk page, so I have moved the relevant text back to this page from the talk page, and the early text can now can be seen in a box above. The use of show/hide boxes is conventional in talk pages. The early edits are now re-united with relevant edit history. The early comments and discussion are now easy to access. Snowman (talk) 15:38, 11 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Not that this is a strictly numbered GA criterion, but why is the article titled "BGM-75 AICBM" when the thing is never referred to as BGM-75 anywhere in the article text? I infer from the article that the "Z" is a temporary prefix, but it doesn't say as much straight out, and, more importantly, I gather that the Z was never actually taken off. Surely an article name should reflect the most common name used for the subject in the article itself? --GRuban (talk) 13:10, 12 August 2013 (UTC)
 * The naming convention for American missiles used by the military history wikiprojects (as far as I'm aware, anyway) is to, as a rule, leave off prefixes from the official designation - this would be the 'X' (prototype), 'Y' (pre-production), and 'Z' (planning) prefixes, as they're, well, prefixes and not part of the designation proper. - The Bushranger One ping only 14:53, 12 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Then that needs to be prominently explained in the article. It's not reasonable to expect readers of an article to have to go look up the standards of a WikiProject that's at best mentioned on the article talk page. --GRuban (talk) 14:38, 14 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Just as a note, I've struck out on interlibrary loans so far. - The Bushranger One ping only 22:51, 13 September 2013 (UTC)


 * As the primary contributor to the article STRAT-X, I find statements such as "The Department of Defense began the STRAT-X study on 1 November 1966 to evaluate a new ballistic missile proposal from the Air Force" and "Ultimately, the Navy won the STRAT-X competition" particularly interesting. STRAT-X was a study conducted to evaluate future weaps systems, not a competition to see who would be the guardian of the next generation of nuclear weapons delivery. The Air Force and Navy both benefitted immensely from the study. --Sp33dyphil ©hatontributions 22:49, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
 * That's not how Friedman presents it, for instance. On p. 202: "On 1 November 1966, the OSD began a new strategic weapon study, STRAT-X, to evaluate the Air Force proposal for a new strategic missile..." And on p. 204: "This undersea long-range missile system (ULMS) won the STRAT-X competition, although the final 1967 final report also called for..." Parsecboy (talk) 13:34, 2 October 2013 (UTC)