Wikipedia:Good article reassessment/Comma Johanneum/1

Comma Johanneum

 * • [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Good_article_reassessment/Comma_Johanneum/1&action=watch Watch article reassessment page] • GAN review not found
 * Result: Delist Consensus here is that the article does not meet the criteria. The article will need a lot of work before it is renominated, in particular the focus. Some serious trimming and condensing could help with the other tagged issues. AIR corn (talk) 11:14, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

'''NOTE: While text is not usually deleted from this type of page, a large amount of space is taken up by material which is "off-topic" and makes reading the page very difficult. It should be on the article's talk-page and some has been copied to it. Since I am indirectly involved, I suggest an independent editor removes it and as a temporary measure have inserted anchors and links to enable readers to skip the "off-topic" parts''' Jpacobb (talk) 22:09, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

The number of tags at the top of the article makes the need for reassessment obvious. I don't normally have much to do with GA, and I haven't had much to do with this article, but I'm sure help would be appreciated. According to the tags, it fails criteria 1 and 4 of Good article criteria. StAnselm (talk) 08:43, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment: The article was promoted to GA in 2006 (see this edit) by User:Lincher, who has been inactive for a few years now. StAnselm (talk) 08:58, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

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 * Delist - Wow, that is a serious stack of tags on the top of the article. They seem to be quite appropriate, too. The article is far too long, at 12375 words, it's over 2000 words above the recommended maximum article size. The lead, at one short paragraph, is nowhere near being sufficient for an article of this size (or even an article half this size). The article is far under-referenced. It attempts to give a blow-by-blow recitation of five centuries of dispute, rather than summarizing the arguments using reliable third-party sources. Way too many quotes, and a bunch of editorializing, especially in the final section (what is up with all of the capital letters there, by the way?). I think that 73 notes is the most I've ever seen in an article, and they include additional quotes, to the point that we may begin to be accused of copyright violations if any of these sources are not in the public domain. Quite a few ibids in the reference section, and at least one in the notes section, as is detailed by yet another tag, in the references section. Tl;dr version: Extensive trimming and reference work necessary before this article is even close to GA status. Dana boomer (talk) 15:49, 1 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Delist Fails 1a. & 1b. (lead section among others); 2c. (eg. final section = "The Grammar of I John 5:7" which is atrocious OR and I propose to delete); 3b. a lot of unnecessary detail; and probably 4. Neutrality – Arguing a case? I also agree with Dana boomer's comments. Jpacobb (talk) 20:26, 1 March 2013 (UTC)


 * The material you deleted has now been restored. StAnselm (talk) 09:12, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I am the one who wrote the grammar section of the Comma Johanneum article, and I am the one who restored it. This is what I wrote on the talk page for that article. "Someone identified as Jpacobb deleted the grammar section of this article on March 1, 2013, without any discussion. That person simply claimed original research and personal point of view without explaining why. That constitutes vandalism. I undid the deletion. The grammatical section compares the view of four experts in the Greek language and the view of three non-experts in the Greek language, and it quotes examples from the Greek New Testament to show why the four experts are right and the three non-experts are wrong. That is neither original research nor personal point of view. After undoing the deletion, I changed the several uppercase words to lowercase. The uppercase words were intended for emphasis, but they might have been seen simply as shouting, hence the change." Since when do presenting the published views of people who are identified with a particular topic and quoting examples to show that the experts among those people really do know what they are talking about constitute original research and a personal point of view? As for the rest of the article, I had nothing to do with that. Those who think that the Comma is a Trinitarian addition instead of an original part of the text concede that the Comma was added to the Latin text after Augustine explained and endorsed the Trinitarian interpretation of 1 John 5:8 in the Latin text in Contra Maximinum in 427 AD. Therefore, any references in that article to the Comma being quoted AFTER 427 AD do not help the view that the Comma is an original part of the text. Nevertheless, a large part of the volume of information that has been added to that article since October in 2012 refers to citations of the Comma AFTER 427 AD, which no one disputes, and which is not evidence that the Comma is an original part of the text. The goal of adding that large volume of information to that article since October in 2012 appears to be to impress on the reader through shear volume that maybe the Comma belongs in the text after all. 7Jim7 (talk) 10:46, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

Two further contributions
 * Delist Fails on multiple points.  It is too long, has an improper lead section and overuses block quotes.  Don4of4 [Talk] 17:11, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Delist OR and POV in the article. It is also too long. Leszek Jańczuk (talk) 13:23, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

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 * I restored the grammar section after Leszek Janczuk deleted it, again without explanation. I don't know who Jpacobb is. For all I know, Jpacobb could be Steven Avery under a different name. I don't know. I do know, however, that Leszek Janczuk is sympathetic to what Steven Avery has done to the Comma Johanneum article since October in 2012. Both Steven Avery and Leszek Janczuk are opposed to the grammar section because it proves, through the published statements of the experts (Bengel, Bulgaris, Oxlee and Wallace) and through the corroborating examples from the Greek New Testament, that there is no grammatical requirement for the Johannine Comma. 7Jim7 (talk) 17:08, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
 * This section is written in an uncyclopedic style. It is too detailed, almost unreferenced, some words are written in capital letters (e.g. ALL). You used formulas "ALL of whom are experts in the Greek language" and "who is not an expert in the Greek language". According to whom they are experts or not? For you Bengel and Bulgaris are experts. They lived in the 18th century. This section should be summarized. Daniel Wallace is enough. You do not need use Edward Hills. I am not sympathetic to what Steven Avery has done to the Comma Johanneum article since October in 2012. It will better if you will not guess. According to me we should restore this version and we can save GA status for the article. Leszek Jańczuk (talk) 18:37, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Both Johann Bengel and Eugenius Bulgaris are identified in Wikipedia as experts in the Greek language. My footnote leads to a web page that links to a biography of Bulgaris, which corroborates that. Bulgaris was in fact a Greek. Frederick Nolan, the guy who invented the false grammatical argument favoring the Comma, acknowledged Eugenius Bulgaris as an expert in the Greek language in footnote 193 on page 257 in his 1815 book, where he falsely claimed that Bulgaris analyzed the grammar in 1 John 5:7-8 the same way that he did. Either Nolan never actually read Bulgaris’ letter, or he read it, but he did not understand it, or he read it and understood and intentionally lied about, thinking that no one would ever challenge his false claim. John Oxlee is identified in Wikipedia as having been famous for being a linguist who was familiar with over 100 languages. You already know of Daniel Wallace. All of these experts in the Greek language expressed the same opinion regarding the grammar in 1 John 5:7-8 in the Received Text and/or Critical Text and Majority Text, which refutes the false claim originated by Nolan and subsequently promoted by Robert Dabney and Edward Hills. The examples from the Greek New Testament corroborate the view of the four experts and refute the view of the three non-experts. The reason that you like the version of the article to which you provided a link, instead of the original version, is that it includes the 12 pro-Comma notes added by Steven Avery in 2011, because you yourself apparently are pro-Comma, which is why you deleted the grammar section. It is not my personal point of view, but an objective treatment of the grammar issue, that led me to write the grammar section, whereas it is not an objective treatment of the grammar issue, but your own person point of view, that led you to delete the grammar section in an attempt to suppress it. What you have said in your explanation for your deletion of the grammar section indicates to me that you never took the time to read the grammar section and the information to which the footnotes provide links, or you didn’t understand it, and yet you nevertheless deleted it simply because it contradicted your personal point of view. The primary complaint about the article is that it is too long. The original article was 3500 words. Then Steven Avery added 1500 words in 12 pro-Comma notes in 2011, which you liked. Then, in 2012, Steven Avery added 20,000 words (mostly pro-Comma), bringing the article to 25,000 words. But what part of all that did you decide to delete? Was it any of the pro-Comma parts in that massive 20,000 word increase? No. You decided to delete the part that objectively refuted the pro-Comma grammatical argument, which was less than 6% of the article, because it contradicted your personal point of view. 7Jim7 (talk) 20:02, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia is not a place for any detail. Wallace is enough. We do not need experts like Edward Hills. Aland never quoted Hills, Metzger only in footnotes. Why do you promote Hills? Leszek Jańczuk (talk) 20:16, 3 March 2013 (UTC) And you are wrong I am not supporter of the Comma Johanneum. Why do you think so? I'm the author of several printed articles against the Textus Receptus, Luther text and KJV. In my translation Comma was not included. I even do not support the Byzantine text-type (because of conflations). Your guesses are wrong (Jpacobb and Steven Avery are different users). The grammar section is not written in an encyclopedic style. Leszek Jańczuk (talk) 20:33, 3 March 2013 (UTC) Probably we need earlier version with 3500 words. Leszek Jańczuk (talk) 20:42, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Let me get this straight. You delete the grammar section, which refers to Bengel, Bulgaris, Oxlee and Wallace as experts whose view of the grammar in 1 John 5:7-8 refutes the view of the non-experts, Nolan, Dabney and Hills (although, for some reason, you seem to think that I have referred to Hills as an expert), because you say that it is too detailed, because it mentions too many names. Nevertheless, you not only allow but actually promote the version of the article that contains the 12 pro-Comma notes of Steven Avery, which (the 12 notes that you like) refer to Forster, Bengel, Gill, Burgess, Clement, Tertullian, Coxe, Augustine, Metzger, Brown, Hepokoski, Mace, Bugenhagen, Grotius, Hills, Nolan, Prisicillian Athansus, Origen, Cornwall, Fulgentius, Hales and Cyprian, because it is not too detailed, because it does not mention too many names? Do I have that straight? 7Jim7 (talk) 23:50, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
 * We need grammar section, but not so detailed. It is almost unreferenced. There is some OR. It is correct OR, but it is still OR. I agree that Bengel, Bulgaris, Oxlee and Wallace are experts, but we should prefer contemporary scholars, not from the 18th century. "seem to think that I have referred to Hills as an expert" - you quoted him in the main body of the article. You should publish your work in more professional places than wikipedia. But... let us return to this version, because it was much better, and start work again. I do not support work of Steven Avery's, as you wrongly think. Between October 2011 and January 2013 I was not active user on en-wiki. Stop your guesses. Leszek Jańczuk (talk) 00:30, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Let me get this straight. You delete the grammar section, which refers to Bengel, Bulgaris, Oxlee and Wallace as experts whose view of the grammar in 1 John 5:7-8 refutes the view of the non-experts, Nolan, Dabney and Hills, because you say that it is too detailed, because it mentions too many names. Nevertheless, you NOW promote the original version of the article that does NOT contains the 12 pro-Comma notes of Steven Avery, which (the original article) refers to Clement, Tertullian, Cyprian, Wallace, Athnasius, Sabellius, Origen, Priscillian, Fulgentius, Augustine, Erasmus, Froben, Metzger, Newton, Jerome, Newcomb and others, because it is not too detailed, because it does not mention too many names. Do I have that straight? Also, let me get this straight. You do not want to retain anything that is cited in the grammar section of the article that has not been written in the present day, because, well, just because. Nevertheless, you want to retain whatever is cited in the other parts of the original article, regardless of when it was written, because, well, just because. Do I have that straight? 7Jim7 (talk) 03:30, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Your work in many points does not meet wikipedia standards. It is unreferenced. Leszek Jańczuk (talk) 04:27, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

'''ATTENTION: I have copied and pasted what is written above to the talk page of the Comma Johanneum article. Could we please do any additional discussing on that talk page of that article, not here, so that I don't have to keep copying and pasting from here to there? Just a thought.'''

Comments My first attempt to comment got lost in an edict conflict; please note: Thanks. Jpacobb (talk) 21:21, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) Much of the above should not appear on this page but rather on the article's talk-page where I shall deal in detail with my reasons for deleting the "Grammar Section"
 * 2) As stated above, I am not Stephen Avery.

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