Wikipedia:Good article reassessment/Iwane Matsui/1

Iwane Matsui

 * • [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Good_article_reassessment/Iwane_Matsui/1&action=watch Watch article reassessment page] • Most recent review
 * Result: Most users commenting believe that the article should be kept, and there doesn't appear to be a solid policy-based reason to delist in this case.Challenger.rebecca (talk) 02:24, 4 March 2016 (UTC)

The recent failed FA review found significant sourcing problems with the article. In at least one case a source was cited as saying the opposite of what it said ("ultranationalist" became "pan-Asianist") and the Japanese-speaking users largely agreed that it looked like most of the article was sourced to revisionist works by Japanese right-wing ideologues rather than scholars. The original GA reviewer admitted they hadn't checked any of the sources. FAs need to be properly-sourced, but this applies just as much to GAs; we can't say the article contains only enough bad sourcing not to be promoted to FA, but for a GA these sourcing problems are acceptable. The original nominator and main author also has a somewhat notorious history of misquoting sources and nominating articles for GA and FA that aren't ready (see also Talk:Korean influence on Japanese culture and Talk:History of Japan). Given what came to light about the article's sourcing later, I think a thorough source-check will be needed if this article is to remain on the GA list. The burden is of course on the party seeking to promote the article to GA status to demonstrate that the article is well-sourced, verifiable and NPOV. I was planning on doing such a source-check (hence my not posting this immediately after the FA review failed), but external factors prevented me from doing so and look set to continue doing so. I'll leave this for the community to discuss. Hijiri 88 ( 聖やや ) 11:38, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

Keep - I don't believe that any sourcing problems were found. You were asked to provide "anything substantial" indicating that the sources were unreliable, but you still haven't provided any such evidence. You were told "If they're unacceptably biased, prove it; the burden is indeed on you", but again you never responded. As Dank pointed out, your argument was basically "there must be a source somewhere that contradicts these sources", which as he noted was not even a valid reason to oppose featured article promotion. Only two full-length biographies of Iwane Matsui have been written and I consulted both of them for use in this article. I know that all the citations are accurately represented, and naturally I can provide a specific spot check upon request to any particular citation. However, just saying that you suspect that the article needs a source-check, without specifying which citations could possibly be wrong, is not useful and not a valid reason for a good article review.CurtisNaito (talk) 16:31, 18 December 2015 (UTC) The closer of this reassessment should note that all the above concerns were already addressed and refuted during the good article review by an experienced reviewer.CurtisNaito (talk) 08:00, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
 * I just saw this by chance while leaving a message for TH1980. You left a notification that was not only not in its own section, but almost looks like part of an older notification. The notification itself looks a lot like a case of canvassing. On top of that, after just reading what's been posted here and having only a few details of this dispute, I see a striking similarity to the History of Japan dispute: an article failed an assessment due to bad sourcing and yet you deny it ever had sourcing problems. Are you serious? This can't be a coincidence. I'm going to read the FA assessment, then I'll check the sources and the article in general. I'll post my !vote after that. Oh and I'll be sure to bring in someone uninvolved in these disputes to help, probably from the 3O or DR noticeboard.  ミーラー強斗武   (StG88ぬ会話) 09:34, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Hijiri notified a number of people involved in the featured article review, but it was a fairly arbitrary list. It made more sense to notify all those involved in the featured article review. Therefore, I notified all individuals who had not already been notified. At any rate, I don't believe the last good article review failed due to bad sourcing. If there are specific problems with sourcing, they should be identified, but the opening statement here was based on the same vague suspicions which were already presented and refuted during the initial good article review. As it stands, no evidence has been put forward of sourcing problems, and there doesn't appear to be any reason to reassess the article, let alone delist it.CurtisNaito (talk) 00:15, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
 * It was not arbitrary. I notified the previous GA nominator, the previous GA reviewer, the closer on the FA review (which was a key part of my GAR rationale), the user who had done a "very thorough copy edit" (TH1980's wording), two relevant WikiProjects, and one other user who had provided noteworthy commentary on the article that I had not touched on in my above GAR rationale, but which might be worth taking into account as well. You, on the other hand, "notified" one user whose involvement in the FA review was part of an ongoing hounding campaign against me (ArbCom is close to imposing an IBAN), and two other users whose involvement in the FA review was peripheral at best but who seemed to kinda-sorta oppose my view on the matter.
 * In keeping with this, your first comment here was completely ad hominem, without even the slightest attempt to address the problems with the article. Please remain focused on article content, and whether or not this article still meets (or ever met) the GA criterion that it be "verifiable" and containing "no original research". (And also that it be neutrally-worded as well -- the above-mentioned concern I'm not really qualified to address.)
 * Hijiri 88 ( 聖やや ) 03:52, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
 * All the users on the featured article review provided commentary. There was no reason for you to only notify those who provided commentary which you thought was "noteworthy". I notified all remaining commentators in a neutral manner, not selectively as was done before. As I said, other users keep telling you that "the burden is indeed on you" to provide evidence that there are sourcing problems. The article passed good article review because you provided no evidence. If you find evidence, the reassessment might have merit, but so far you haven't provided any.CurtisNaito (talk) 04:00, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm not going down this rabbit hole again. Suffice to say the above comment completely misses my point that I didn't want to canvas (annoy) every user who provided a driveby comment -- I notified those users whom WP:GAR requires me to notify, and one other user who had made what looked like a valid comment on an area I am not qualified to comment on. CurtisNaito specifically notified several users who had not commented on sourcing concerns but thought the article's prose looked good, and one user with a history of harassing me. This will be my last direct reply here. Hijiri 88 ( 聖やや ) 04:07, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
 * I notified all remaining users who commented on the featured article review. You notified a selective list, including users who only provided brief commentary and who never commented on sourcing at all. Either all or none of the commentators should have been notified, not just an arbitrary list of one user's preferred commentators.CurtisNaito (talk) 04:13, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
 * I don't believe the last good article review failed due to bad sourcing This is beside the point -- the last good article review didn't fail -- it passed in spite of the bad sourcing. We are here to rectify that, either by doing a thorough source-check and fixing the article so it meets the GA criteria, or delisting it. If what was meant was "I don't believe the last featured article review failed due to bad sourcing", then that is blatant IDHT -- the coordinator specifically said "This seems to have more or less ground to a halt on the issue of sourcing". Hijiri 88 ( 聖やや ) 04:07, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
 * I have verified all the sources myself, so naturally I can spot check any of them. It's strange that you would accuse me of IDHT when so many other users have asked you to provide evidence for your assertions and yet you just ignore them. You yourself have repeatedly acknowledged that you have no access to the main sources used in the article and have never read them. Though it's unclear why you object to sources you have never read, even so I can spot check and provide relevant quotes from any specific source which you think needs to be spot checked. However, just saying that the whole article needs to be checked is not useful, because I've already done that. If you tell me which specific citation you need quotes from, then I can provide them.CurtisNaito (talk) 04:13, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
 * you do realize what WP:IDHT means right? That something happens or someone says something and you pretend it didn't happen? Hijiri provided a diff of someone saying the article failed because of sourcing (and just for you here's another editor expressing concern about sources), but you responded by claiming he's never provided any evidence of it. You do realize that that's IDHT?  ミーラー強斗武   (StG88ぬ会話) 08:20, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
 * The above diff only listed one specific concern, which was already dealt with. I provided quotes from several other users who told Hijiri that he had to provide evidence if he believed that there were problems with the sources. The reason why the article passed good article review is because no evidence was provided. Repeating the same claims over and over again without providing the evidence which was requested the first time is not really productive. However, as I said earlier, I can do specific spot checks on request if you want any certain citation verified.CurtisNaito (talk) 08:25, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Same arguments as always. "There were no problems" *provides diffs* "Those were already delt with" So you admit that there were problems? "There were no problems"... As usual, this argument will go around in circles endlessly, albet with different wording each time, so there's not much point in continuing. We need outside consensus.  ミーラー強斗武   (StG88ぬ会話) 12:42, 25 December 2015 (UTC)
 * As I quoted earlier, it's the same arguments three or four other users have already made, and every time no response is given about where the alleged sourcing problems actually are. Just tell me which sources or citations need spot checks and I'll do it.CurtisNaito (talk) 18:04, 25 December 2015 (UTC)
 * You understand what a conflict of interest is right? You added the faulty sourcing, and now you'll go back and double check it yourself? When you compare the source with the text, you'll naturally find nothing wrong with it since that was your interpretation, whether you misrepresented it or not. Then you'll report back that everything was fine and reassure us that you checked the sources. Unless someone else checks it, we have to assume you're not just pulling stuff out of the air, which would only leave the article still a mess.  ミーラー強斗武   (StG88ぬ会話) 12:55, 26 December 2015 (UTC)
 * There was never evidence for faulty sourcing in the first place, but at any rate, if you know of any sources which you need checked, just tell me which ones and I'll quote the relevant portions word for word so that you can verify them yourself.CurtisNaito (talk) 16:12, 26 December 2015 (UTC)
 * There was never evidence for faulty sourcing in the first place Curtis, you changed the word "ultranationalist" to "pan-Asianist", and on FAN when questioned about why you did this you admitted to engaging in gross OR and second-guessing of your source. That was where the article cited a good source written by a scholar and published by a university: there is also the entirely separate problem that 90% of the citations are not to good sources but to right-wing revisionist books. On FAN, you admitted to interpreting your good sources in light of the bad ones. The FAN failed because of these two problems -- this is incontrovertible -- and you are now claiming, without evidence, that these two problems don't exist and never did exist. Hijiri 88 ( 聖やや ) 07:46, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
 * You never presented any evidence that Toshiyuki Hayase is a revisionist writer. In fact, you were explicitly asked during the good article review by the reviewer to provide evidence justifying your opinion, and you didn't. You were asked by Dank during the featured article to state what sources were better, and again you just ignored him. You admitted during the good article review that you never read the books, and so in that case, what basis are you possibly claiming they are unreliable? As far as I can tell, the only evidence you ever presented was that the books contained the word "truth" in the title, but the article passed good article review in spite of that precisely because that can hardly be called sufficient evidence. I think bringing this article to good article reassessment based on claims which were already refuted during the good article review itself, about sources which you have never read, was fairly frivolous. You have been told many times that "the burden is indeed on you". Unless you present some actual evidence, then there is no reason whatsoever to continue this reassessment.CurtisNaito (talk) 07:56, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
 * what basis are you possibly claiming they are unreliable? Hayase and Hayasaka are the article's two main sources. One is best-known for his books on golf; the other is no better in terms of historical credentials. Both books have titles (X no shinjitsu = "the truth about X") that clearly demarcate them as fringe revisionist works. You have claimed that they are "biographies" of Matsui, but both books' subtitles and chapter listings indicate they are primarily about the Nanjing Massacre and are interested in rehabilitating Matsui by putting the Sino-Japanese War and his involvement in it "in context". You have claimed that these are "the only" biographies of Matsui available, but this ignores the Wikipedia policy that material that can only be attributed to problematic sources doesn't belong here in the first place. Furthermore, the above-demonstrated OR (ultranationalist→"pan-Asianist") clearly indicates that the way you interpret events in Matsui's biography is not the way reputable scholars do -- where did you get this interpretation? Hayase and Hayasaka? How much of this article is based on their interpretation of history? Hijiri 88 ( 聖やや ) 08:37, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
 * There is an expression, "Don't judge a book by its cover". It's surely rather superficial to make a sweeping judgment that Toshiyuki Hayase's book is an unreliable source just because it contains the word "truth" in the title. You can't take a book you've never read and conclude that you know it's a poor source just because you don't like one of the words used in the title. All the material in the article represents the basic facts about Matsui, and there is no evidence to believe that the information is not accurate. For one, you say that the books are primarily about the Nanking Massacre and not biographical works on Matsui, but that is completely not true and anyone who has read the books could tell you the same thing. In this vein, I think it's important that we not engage in original research, and that's why I strived to include the essential facts within each section of the biography, plus interpretations in the assessment section. Concluding that the information is unreliable based on one word in the title of a book that you have not read is the sort of original research that we should not be engaging in here. Why not tell me the name of another writer who has analyzed these books and concluded that they are unreliable, or at least another Wikipedia user or Internet commentator who has read Toshiyuki's Hayase's book and concluded that it is unreliable? You yourself can't give an informed opinion if you've never read the sources and know nothing about the subject.
 * Of course, many other users have pointed out these problems in your argument, and that's the reason why the good article review passed. If you have actual evidence to report, you should report it, but it is hardly useful to just repeat over and over such ridiculously false arguments as your claim that the works cited are not biographies of Matsui.CurtisNaito (talk) 08:49, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

All the material in the article represents the basic facts about Matsui No, that is not true, nor should it be. "Truth" is subjective, and so on Wikipedia we base our historical articles on what professional historians have written, rather than on the opinions of laymen with agendas. For example, I provided incontrovertible proof that you (and Hayase/Hayasaka?) changed your source's word "ultranationalist" to "pan-Asianist". The article still contains fourteen instances of "pan-Asianist" and related terms; how many of these should be rewritten as "ultranationalist" because that's what reliable historians say? We need a thorough source-check, and clearly neither of us is capable of this at this time. Hijiri 88 ( 聖やや ) 09:20, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Most of the basic facts about Matsui's life and work are not disputed by anyone. For instance, you have not cited even a single source contradicting the facts in this article. You yourself could do a source-check if you took the time to read the sources. If you really don't have time to actually read the sources which you are criticizing, then I am certainly capable of either a source-check, or alternatively providing you with the relevant quotes from the sources cited.CurtisNaito (talk) 09:25, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Most of the basic facts about Matsui's life and work are not disputed by anyone. How many of this article's fourteen uses of the word "pan-Asian" are backed up by reliable source other than Hayase/Hayasaka? How many of them should be "ultranationalist"/"militarist"/"expansionist"? This is just one example of a "basic fact" that could be disputed ad nauseum based on historical interpretation. you have not cited even a single source contradicting the facts in this article I cited one in the FAN, and in OP here; it said "propaganda for an ultranationalist group" where our article said "promotion of pan-Asianism". You yourself could do a source-check if you took the time to read the sources And tracked down the obscure editions our article cites, or managed to match the page numbers to another edition, and paid for the book and for express shipping so it arrives before the TBAN you brought downon me... I am certainly capable of either a source-check Except that you want this article to stay a GA and stay in its present form, and if there is more misquoting of sources and use of problematic fringe sources, you are clearly unwilling to acknowledge this. Such a COI would be totally unacceptable for our purposes, even if the History of Japan GAR hadn't already demonstrated that you are incapable of doing such a source-check to begin with. Hijiri 88 ( 聖やや ) 09:45, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
 * I didn't bring a TBAN down on you. The arbs give rulings based on evidence of user conduct so users can only bring TBANs on themselves. At any rate, you brought up these alleged problems in June seven months ago. It shouldn't take seven months for you to just check the sources. If you had checked the sources seven months ago, you would be fully aware by now that the article does not have the problems that you believe it does. There is nothing wrong with describing the Greater Asian Association as being a pan-Asianist group, and for consistency I used pan-Asianism to describe it in all contexts. Historian Torsten Weber called the Greater Asian Association, "the single most influential organization to propagate pan-Asianism between 1933 and 1945". The Japanese language sources in question all use either pan-Asianism(汎アジア主義) or Greater Asianism(大亜細亜主義) to describe its ideology, which in English refer to the same thing. I have successfully nominated many articles for good article status and have demonstrated that I know how to use sources properly. Ultimately, what is necessary here is evidence to back up your claims, but it's hard to believe you'll come up with any evidence if you openly admit that you are not willing to look at the sources before judging them.CurtisNaito (talk) 09:56, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm done talking to you. You're obviously not interested in fixing this article, or even acknowledging the obvious flaws that are already there. The article will be delisted as a GA if no one steps up to fix it. Good bye. Hijiri 88 ( 聖やや ) 14:34, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Well, as I said, I can certainly post the necessary quotes here if you want to check any specific source. If not, we should accept the judgment of those users who actually have read the sources.CurtisNaito (talk) 15:01, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

Keep - There's nothing substantive in this reassessment. We will just be wasting our time.TH1980 (talk) 17:53, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Any further commenters and/or closers should consider this and this before taking the above vote! into account. Hijiri 88 ( 聖やや ) 04:07, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
 * I won't be supporting or opposing as I haven't examined the sources, but the closer should keep in mind that TH1980 has a history of supporting CurtisNaito regardless of the quality of the article in question or the validity of the issues raised. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 10:05, 27 December 2015 (UTC)