Wikipedia:Help desk/Archives/2007 August 11

= August 11 =

Template:Location map Saskatchewan combining with Template:Infobox Settlement
I created a Template:Location map for Saskatchewan. When I create community, town articles I also use this template. ..Template:Infobox Settlement. If one uses the location map by itself and the infobox by itself like this article St. Louis, Saskatchewan all is OK with the world. However if one wishes the map inside the infobox like perhaps in an article page like this one...Govenlock, Saskatchewan the infobox looks dorky. Is there away to incorporate the template into the infobox without the irrelevant coding ....showing...-->> [[Image:|250px|none|]??? Thank you [[User:SriMesh|SriMesh]] | talk  00:08, 11 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I can take a look at it. Might take a while, but I'll let you know if I get anywhere. Hers fold  (t/a/c) 00:17, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Ok, the problem is that by putting Location map in the "image_map" parameter, the infobox is trying to do this: [[Image:|250px|none|]] . Obviously, that's not going to work well, and is why we have issues. It looks as though the infobox has the capacity to do essentially the same thing Location map does - I'd recommend trying to find how to convert it to that code. Sorry, but without blowing up the infobox, there's not much that can be done about it. Hers fold  (t/a/c) 00:28, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Why are you playing games?
Why are you playing games with my real work ? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Special:Contributions/ (talk)
 * What are you referring to? This is the only edit by your IP address. PrimeHunter 00:16, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Asking vague questions amounts to playing games with the Help desk. While it can be fun to attempt to fill in the critical information a question omits, in this case the omissions appear insurmountable. At least to me. If you want a meaningful answer, ask a meaningful question, for example by defining what you mean by "games" and "real work." For example, do you have a question about an article on Wikipedia? --Teratornis 01:52, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Source info as part of a fair use statement
I have searched in vain for a detailed answer regarding the proper format for the source statement used in the for images downloaded from web pages. The best I could find Help:Image_page but that does not even mention the source information as being a required element. Many images tend to use the base url address only as the source. Others use the specific url address of the image that was uploaded. Can you point me to the policy that clearly states what should be used to indicate the source of images copied from web pages? Dbiel (Talk) 02:21, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The essential part is the copyright; sources are generally very useful, and considered a required element since they allow verification of the copyright claim. Basically, give as much information as possible about where you got the image; a link to the most specific page possible is good; you can even date it. However, be aware that if you do not provide a source, your claim about the copyright for the image cannot be verified, and the image will probably end up getting deleted.  The policy page is Non-free content criteria. --Haemo 02:34, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the reply, it gets be closer to the information, but seems to be a bit inaccurate from my POV. See Non-free_content_criteria
 * If you download an image from the web, you should give the URL:
 * Source: Downloaded from http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4280841.stm
 * I would see the source of the image being: http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40846000/jpg/_40846791_si_afp203body.jpg (as an example of one of the images on the reference page). So I guess my question remains unanswered as to which is right, a specific ulr of the image itself, or as the Non-free_content_criteria example shows, only the ulr of the page the image was displayed on? Dbiel (Talk) 03:02, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Bullying?
I have read about the processes for posting and contributing to Wikipedia and I assuming that changes should be reached by consensus. I have noticed some problems with "proprietorship" by admins on certain pages. Is it not the job of the admin to monitor and remain neutral? I have noticed a certain admin who arbitrarily makes changes and insists they stay that way, even if the group consensus on the talk pages does not agree. Or who makes or reverts changes before discussion can take place. How do we cope with this? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Nora Bayes (talk • contribs).


 * If you are having a problem with another editor, you can try following the steps in dispute resolution. Just remember to always assume good faith. Hers fold  (t/a/c) 02:33, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

31st of july
Hi there I am intrested in finding the picture that was used on the main page of Wiki on the 31st of July 2007. It was the "Todays featured picture" and was a phortograph of a woman swimming in water. If you could help me find out the name of the photographer it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

Kathy Wieden
 * Hi, Kathy! It seems like the picture you're talking about is Image:Weeki Wachee spring 10079u.jpg; its "today's featured picture" entry was Template:POTD/2007-08-02, and the photographer was Toni Frissell. The image is in the public domain. (By the way, this entry was for the 2nd of August: the picture for the 31st was a cathedral.) Grace notes T § 03:34, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Trivia sections
Almost every article I go to has a template called "This contains a trivia section" under trivia content. If I remove it, you'll get mad at me and threaten to never let me edit anything ever again. What should I do? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.14.216.60 (talk • contribs)
 * Why are you removing the template?--  Max  Talk [ (+)] 06:08, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
 * What you should do is help us out by trying to incorporate the trivia facts into the rest of the article. Trivia sections are not considered encyclopedic, so we try to remove them whenever possible. Only when the trivia section no longer exists can the template actually be removed without a problem. Hers fold  (t/a/c) 14:38, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Different colored text
How do you make specific words different colors?
 * Yes, you can. In general, the best way to do this is to use &lt;span&gt; HTML tags. For example:

a red word
 * displays as:
 * a red word
 * The 16 colors you can use are aqua, black, blue, fuchsia, gray, green, lime, maroon, navy, olive, purple, red, silver, teal, white, and yellow.

this is colored by a hex triplet
 * displays as:
 * this is colored by a hex triplet
 * The 6-digit value is a color hex triplet.

You can also use the &lt;fontgt; tag to make words certain colors, but span is a bit more useful (and more flexible). Grace notes T § 05:52, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Creating articles
I don't know how to create an article on Wikipedia! Will you please list every step on how to do it?
 * See Your first article. &mdash; E  talkbots 06:29, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Accusations
Why are you accusing me of vandalizing things?! :(
 * Because adding nonsense like this to the Help Desk page (which someone using the same IP address as you did) is considered vandalism. DH85868993 06:47, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Changing Article names
Uh, how are you capable of changing the names of specific articles, like Mr. Crocker? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.14.216.60 (talk • contribs). (PS:  )
 * Articles are renamed by moving them. You need to have an account to do this.  Someguy1221 06:44, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
 * And the account must be four days old.--Fuhghettaboutit 06:50, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Really Simple Systems page deleted - ok, would these changes help?
Hi,

I created an entry for "Really Simple Systems" and it was promptly deleted citing WP:CSD#A7. Fair enough, I presume I should have put some more on notability.

If I added "Really Simple Systems has over 500 users and is the largest hosted CRM vendor in the United Kingdom" would that help?

Really Simple Systems may not be famous in the USA, but if you type in "online crm" or "simple crm" in Google in the UK, the name comes up as #1 in the search listings. Plus there are numerous press articles (see http://www.reallysimplesystems.com/news.asp) for external verifiability.

I can't see why the page would be less notable than those for "Goldmine" or "24SevenOffice" or "ebsuite".

Thanks for anticipated feedback! —Preceding unsigned comment added by JacPaterson (talk • contribs)


 * Notability in a Wikipedia article is determined by non-trivial references in third-party reliable sources. So, a google search is not good because it can be Googlebombed, and hence is not "reliable". The press articles, on the other hand, are good. If you can include some links to the original articles in the Wikipedia article, and use claims in those articles to demonstrate the notability you are stating, then you should get past the A7 hurdle. Also, have a look at WP:CORP and some of the links in it to get an idea of what may put an article at risk of facing WP:AFD, the non-speedy deletion process. Confusing Manifestation 11:15, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
 * You can communicate more effectively on a wiki by adding appropriate links on all the technical or commercial jargon terms you use. This especially applies to three-letter abbreviations such as CRM, because the limited number of available TLAs means that many of them are overused and require disambiguation. Indeed, CRM itself is a disambiguation page. By forcing your readers to guess which of the more than twenty possible meanings of CRM you are thinking of (Customer Relationship Management?), you might annoy them and tend to prejudice them against whatever case you are trying to make (that would be a departure from critical thinking on their part, but that's what people tend to do). This would be particularly true of readers who have extensive wiki editing experience and thus have been conditioned to expect well-edited material. Second, you should sign your posts on talk pages (although the Help desk is not technically a talk page, it functions like one, as should be clear just from perusing it - arguably, using a not-really-a-talk-page like a talk page is an ergonomic inconsistency on Wikipedia, but there it is, and it's something new users need to pick up as part of learning the "lay of the land").
 * As far as how to establish notability per WP:CSD, use the notability guidelines rather than looking at other articles as examples. When you do use other articles as examples, you should restrict yourself to articles that have been rated as featured or good, rather than selecting random articles which may themselves have problems. See: WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. The vast majority of articles on Wikipedia are of less than the best quality, and unfortunately the articles themselves are more apparent than the guidelines, so they function as a kind of massive red herring to lead new users astray. In other words, do as we say (in the guidelines), not as we do (in the million-plus mediocre articles). --Teratornis 11:26, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
 * thanks for the feedback, I have resubmitted the page taking on board all your comments. if you think it doesn't pass the test, or could be improved, I'm sure you'll let me know! JacPaterson 11:36, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Articles on Integrated approach of management in construction industry- reg.
59.93.87.177 11:03, 11 August 2007 (UTC) Dear Sir, I would like to know the the case studies related to different activities such as material management, financial management, project management, contract management etc. and other related mangerial topics which csn be use and existing and practical related case studies.


 * You could try using the search function or asking at the Reference Desk. We're only here to help you figure out how to use Wikipedia. Hers fold  (t/a/c) 14:34, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Marking an article as outdated
I forgot how to do this and I can't find a link.

The article European Union arms embargo on the People's Republic of China needs to be marked as outdated.

Sseballos 11:41, 11 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Pick one in Category:Time and date maintenance templates. PrimeHunter 13:17, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Also see Template messages/Cleanup. Update might be what you want. --Teratornis 19:08, 11 August 2007 (UTC)


 * How is it outdated? It is no more "outdated" than the Boxer Rebellion is.  It's a historical event.  Corvus cornix 19:37, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
 * It says "Jacques Chirac's term will expire in 2007, Thus it is difficult to tell which member state will push for lifting the embargo in the future." It has already expired, and it would be good to have this tagged. Sseballos 17:04, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Please help with formatting my citation
I've tried dozens of times and can't seem to get my citation working right, probably because I'm mixing citation templates (trying to add the auto-formatting publication dates and "accessed on" dates, primarily).

Here's where I am so far:

adding an entry
I want to add a new entry, how do I do this? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jedisarlaac (talk • contribs).
 * Before creating an article, please search Wikipedia first to make sure that an article does not already exist on the subject. Please also review a few of our relevant policies and guidelines which all articles should comport with. As Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, articles must not contain original research, must be written from a neutral point of view, should cite to reliable sources which verify their content and must not contain unsourced, negative content about living people.


 * Articles must also demonstrate the notability of the subject. Please see our subject specific guidelines for people, bands and musicians, companies and organizations and web content and note that if you are closely associated with the subject, our conflict of interest guideline strongly recommends against you creating the article.


 * If you still think an article is appropriate, see Help:Starting a new page. You might also look at Your first article and How to write a great article for guidance, and please consider taking a tour through the Tutorial so that you know how to properly format the article before creation. PrimeHunter 13:38, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

How to delete an uploaded file
In my contributions, there is an image that contains a background NOT made by me. I accidentally picked up the wrong licensing. How can I delete that image, since I feel it violates the copyrights of someone else?

It can be found here:

Rosemarius 13:32, 11 August 2007 (UTC)


 * You don't have to delete the image, as long as it does not violate our policies for fair use images. You can replace the current licensing tag with a more appropriate one. A directory of all the tags can be found here. Hers fold  (t/a/c) 14:29, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
 * In the future, however, if you wish to have a page deleted that you created and you are the only one who has made significant contibutions, you can add either db-g7 or db-author to the top of the page. This will alert an administrator to the situation and they will delete it shortly - in my experience, within a few minutes. Hers <em style="font-family:Bradley Hand ITC;color:gold">fold  (t/a/c) 14:33, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Page Loading Speed
I recently upped my watchlist count by a considerable amount to over 370 pages. Since then, whenever I try to load a page it takes much longer than it did before I watched all those extra pages. Is there anything I can do to sort it out? (I doubt this will make a difference but I use the latest version of Safari) Thanks asyndeton 13:32, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
 * This is better suited for the Reference Desk but… In my experience, Safari does not handle really large web pages well. An overly long wiki page, like an unarchived Talk page, will quickly eat up memory on your computer, making all other page loads take longer. Your watchlist may be a large enough page that it's causing a similar problem. Once you close out the watchlist tab, it should improve the speed. Otherwise, you really just need more memory. -- Kesh 17:02, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

searching for a warning template
I came across this offensive diff of an anonymous IP attacking the subject of an article. Fortunately, it was promptly deleted by another editor. However, this IP has not been warned at all: is there a warning template for this kind of thing? Lisatwo 14:12, 11 August 2007 (UTC)


 * There's a whole ton of them. See WP:UTM for the whole list. <em style="font-family:Bradley Hand ITC;color:blue">Hers <em style="font-family:Bradley Hand ITC;color:gold">fold  (t/a/c) 14:26, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

I've been scratching my head looking at WP:UTM for a while, and I can't find a specific template that applies to this situation. Do you think the closest thing is ? Thanks, Lisatwo 15:06, 11 August 2007 (UTC)


 * You might try uw-biog1 or uw-defam1, but if a template doesn't precisely fit, it's probably best to write an appropriate message yourself. Carom 16:55, 11 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your response! Lisatwo 18:56, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

new post?
where do i go to create a new post please?Sakarouli 14:26, 11 August 2007 (UTC)sakis


 * If you mean a new article, the page at WP:1ST should be able to give you some pointers. <em style="font-family:Bradley Hand ITC;color:blue">Hers <em style="font-family:Bradley Hand ITC;color:gold">fold  (t/a/c) 14:30, 11 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Help:Starting a new page gives instructions to follow. I hope this helps :-)  Stwalkerster  talk 14:33, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

(cut-n-paste move) Does "Gentlemen's club" need a dab page?
(I hesitated between posting here or at Village pump (miscellaneous), feel free to move this or tell me to move it if necessary.)

I stumbled on a cut-n-paste move done 20 days ago, which is already bad. Additionally, it was done by destroying a dab page (replaced with the cut-n-pasted article). But then, it made me wonder if the dab page was really necessary in the first place, something that should established before the cut-n-paste move can be fixed one way or the other. So I'm <STRIKE>dumping the baby</STRIKE> asking here for opinions about that.

The particulars that'd need undoing or history-merging or something anyway:


 * Dab page Gentlemen's club was overwritten by User:Jooler with cut-n-pasted article Gentlemen's club (traditional) (diff)
 * Article Gentlemen's club (traditional) (which has a long history, plenty of contributors, plenty of what-links-here) was overwritten with a redirect to Gentlemen's club (history)
 * Redirect Men's club was switched from Gentlemen's club (traditional) to Gentlemen's club

As visible on the diff, the original 2-entry dab page wasn't much to behold. After a quick googling, if a dab page was to be recreated, either at the original place or at a new Gentlemen's club (disambiguation), it could stand for Gentlemen's club/Gentlemen's Club/The Gentlemen's Club/The Gentlemen's club and would be just a bit longer with some little-to-non notables:

Gentlemen's club or Gentlemen's Club may refer to:


 * Gentlemen's club (traditional), a club in the style of those originally for upper-class men in the United Kingdom
 * Gentlemen's club, a type of upscale strip club such as Sapphire Gentlemen's Club or La Bohème (gentlemen's club)


 * Gentlemen's Club, a 1995 U.S. direct-to-video action movie (IMDB page)
 * The Gentlemen's Club, a 2000s Canadian rock group from Montreal (AMG discog)(website)
 * "The Gentlemen's Club", a 2006 rock song on Resurrection by Jazmine Jahn (AMG album)

See also: "Gentlemenz Club", a 2005 rap song on Help Us Eat by Gun Hill (AMG album)


 * Disambig

Because fixing a cut-n-paste move is do delicate, it requires to decide first if a dab page is warranted or not, which I don't feel I can necessarily decide on my own, subjective as it is. So, is a dab page such as above needed at the main article title, and thus what should be the better path to suggest to an admin for fixing that cut-n-paste move?


 * 1) Restore such dab page at Gentlemen's club, and restore Gentlemen's club (traditional) (plus the edits it received at its displaced location)?
 * 2) Undo the cut-n-paste move, redo it with a regular move, and create a Gentlemen's club (disambiguation) for the dab itself?
 * 3) Same as above, but drop the dab page and just tag the article with ?

&mdash; Komusou talk @ 17:04, 11 August 2007 (UTC)


 * You can request a fix at Cut and paste move repair holding pen. If you are unsure what the fix should be then you could describe the situation as here and maybe make a recommendation. If we don't have articles on the movie, group, songs, or groups behind the songs, then 3 seems sensible to me but it's not important. PrimeHunter 19:06, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

reliability
what is the reliability of the sources


 * The sources used on Wikipedia articles (i.e. references or cites)? Mostly they should be accurate, but it depends on who puts them there and if they know and care about what they are doing. I'd consider references to be generally quite accurate and fulfil their purpose quite adequately. <span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS,sans-serif"> Lra drama 17:46, 11 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Take a look at WP:RS. --<font face="Comic Sans MS"><font color="Black">Tλε Rαnδom Eδιτor ( tαlk ) 21:41, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

My archive is bleeding!
I have just noticed that my 2nd talk archive is entirely written in red in its latter half. I can't seem to find what is causing this. Could someone either point it out for me or just go ahead and fix it? Page is here- User talk:Goldom/Archive 2 Thanks. -Goldom ‽‽‽ ⁂ 18:01, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Fixed. There was a missing   tag.-- <tt> Max </tt>  Talk [ (+)] 18:16, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks! -Goldom ‽‽‽ ⁂ 08:15, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Category Intersections
Is there any way to look for articles that are in two categories (such as finding all the articles that are in both Category:Freeware games and Category:Action-adventure games)? — Daniel 18:51, 11 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, indeed: Cattersect --Sopoforic 18:55, 11 August 2007 (UTC)


 * So do I just memorize that whole thing or is there a link to it? — Daniel 19:16, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Templates for Bots
Is there a template like, , or for bots? --<font color="Green">Boricua  e <font color="Green">ddie  19:13, 11 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, since bots are users as well, those templates will work for them. Is there something you'd want for bots that isn't on the ordinary templates? --Sopoforic 19:17, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, for starters, it should include a link to the bot's flag logs and a link to its RFBA, but I'll create it myself. Thanks anyway. --<font color="Green">Boricua  e <font color="Green">ddie  19:24, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I see. There is botlinks, though, if that is the sort of thing you're looking for. --Sopoforic 19:32, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks. --<font color="Green">Boricua  e <font color="Green">ddie  19:35, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Hash function commitment
The Hash Function commitment on my User page isn't working they way it's supposed to. Could someone tell me how to do it. Samuel 19:21, 11 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Ehm, it's supposed to be in numbers... You should go to a site like this one, enter something only you can know (e.g. your RL name, your city of birth, and your telephone number), then copy the resulting SHA-512 code, then enter on your user page.  Mel  sa  ran  19:45, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Samuel 13:26, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

changing the account name
how can I change my account ID —Preceding unsigned comment added by S.rizaev (talk • contribs) 22:03, 11 August 2007 (CEST)


 * You can request to have your username changed at WP:CHU. However, your only edit so far has been to this page, so it may be better if you just create a new account and contribute under that name.  Mel sa  ran  20:06, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

image-link
hi i am new in wikipedia, my classmates and I just created an article about our University(UEES) as a class project. i put some pictures of the buildings and there is a little bit of information of each building at the beginning of the article. so i want to link the word: Building A, Building B, etc... with each picture that is on the bottom of the article! can someone please help me?!?!


 * Thank you for your contribution to Wikipedia! If you want to include images in an article, Help:Image is probably what you're looking for.  Mel sa  ran  20:43, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Merge
Hi, I just did my first merge: Western Union Telegraph Expedition into Russian-American telegraph. It had been suggested for a while without comments. I'm pretty sure I did it correctly and followed the directions at WP:Merge. I haven't edited the final article yet as it has quite a few other issues to iron out, so I just put an under construction tag on it for now, while I'm working on it... but I just wanted someone to doublecheck that I performed the merge correctly as I've never done one before. Thanks. Ci ndy  Bo  talk  20:29, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Looks fine to me. Nice work, CindyBo.-- <tt> Max </tt>  Talk [ (+)] 21:00, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Max! Ci  ndy  Bo  talk  21:12, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

help!!! i don't know what i did!!!
Oh boy. I was trying to ad my link as a refrence and some how i ended up erasing all the references and now i don't know what to do to fix it!!! I don't want to get intouble i just was trying to cite by source. i messed up. I was working in the California Polytechnic State University Page. please someone help. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shyangel007 (talk • contribs) 22:44, 11 August 2007


 * Stwalkerster fixed it for you. :-)  Mel sa  ran  20:52, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Melsaran, I left a note on their talk page, explaining references to them. :-)  Stwalkerster  talk 20:56, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
 * [Edit Conflict] :You're not in trouble; we assumed good faith. The page was repaired by Basar and Stwalkerster.  In the future you can always inspect the page' history to revert changes.-- <tt> Max </tt>  Talk [ (+)] 20:58, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Minimalist Wikipedia front page for PDA browsers.
Hola. I fall under the category of someone who makes extensive use of Wikipedia, corrects a few things here and there, but knows woefully little about how the whole Wikipedia things works.

One of my greatest joys in life is to be able to use Wikipedia from my Treo 700p.

Wikipedia rendered awfully on the Treo's browser "Blazer", but after some Googling, I created a user defined display style, and now it's "ok".

What I really really would love is an alternative Wikipedia front page for PDA browsers. Something truly barebones -- really spartan. I'm thinking something like Google's default main page.

It would have a user login/password/"remember me" form, and a text input box for the search, and nothing else. No graphics, no news, no featured articles, no sister projects, etc.

Does such a thing already exist? If not, why not? And how could such a thing be done?

Thanks! Sliver 22:10, 11 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Hello, the page at WP:PDA should give you some information on what you need. <em style="font-family:Bradley Hand ITC;color:blue">Hers <em style="font-family:Bradley Hand ITC;color:gold">fold  (t/a/c) 22:15, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
 * P.S. - And additional information here and here. <em style="font-family:Bradley Hand ITC;color:blue">Hers <em style="font-family:Bradley Hand ITC;color:gold">fold  (t/a/c)


 * Leaping langosta! How did you answer that so quickly?   Thanks!  :-) Sliver 22:18, 11 August 2007 (UTC)


 * The help channel on IRC apparently runs a bot which lets us know when there are new topics. Quite convenient. <em style="font-family:Bradley Hand ITC;color:blue">Hers <em style="font-family:Bradley Hand ITC;color:gold">fold  (t/a/c) 22:35, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
 * If you want really barebones, check out TomeRaider. --Teratornis 03:13, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Substitution of Unsigned
Should be substituted? I ask this because I just saw a discussion carried out a while ago whether or not the template should be subst'ed, and I failed to understand if consensus had been reached. --<font color="Green">Boricua  e <font color="Green">ddie  22:28, 11 August 2007 (UTC)


 * According to the documentation, it should be. I don't really see any reason why it shouldn't be anyway. <em style="font-family:Bradley Hand ITC;color:blue">Hers <em style="font-family:Bradley Hand ITC;color:gold">fold  (t/a/c) 22:33, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
 * One the concerns raised in the discussion is that it takes up too much space. When editing, it's easier to read the edit box when  is used than when —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Example (talk • contribs). (which produces —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Example (talk • contribs). ) is used. Thanks for your help. --<font color="Green">Boricua  e <font color="Green">ddie  22:41, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Guess you have a point there. Ok, thanks. <em style="font-family:Bradley Hand ITC;color:blue">Hers <em style="font-family:Bradley Hand ITC;color:gold">fold  (t/a/c) 23:16, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
 * This is just my opinion, but I dislike template substitution because it obliterates the original template syntax. On Wikipedia we may have millions of users who are clicking on edit links to peek at wikitext to see the source code that creates various effects. If the new user can see the exact wikitext that a previous author typed, that's got to be much easier to learn from than the confusing mess of wikitext resulting from a template substitution. (Imagine how many leaps of comprehension a new user would have to make to get from the substituted template back to the original expression that the previous user typed.) For the same reason I am annoyed by the way the Pipe trick apparently hides its tracks, by changing the resulting wikitext so the next editor cannot see what the previous editor did. Source code should be the actual definitive code that someone typed. If it is to mutate into something else via macros or whatever, there still must be some way to recover the actual original source code. That's just a basic principle of programming languages that makes them learnable from examples. --Teratornis 03:31, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

NPOV test
Hi. Is there a particular page on Wikipedia where I can ask for unbiased users to check if an article adheres to Neutral Point of View. Thanks in advance. <font COLOR="blue">Tbo 157 <font COLOR="red">talk  22:31, 11 August 2007 (UTC)


 * You can tag the page with npov. That will add the page to a cleanup category and someone will fix it eventually. <em style="font-family:Bradley Hand ITC;color:blue">Hers <em style="font-family:Bradley Hand ITC;color:gold">fold  (t/a/c) 22:32, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Ive seen that some articles have been tagged with that template for a year with noone making any changes. <font COLOR="blue">Tbo 157 <font COLOR="red">talk  22:33, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
 * You could also try a request for comment on the article. --Haemo 22:34, 11 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Be sure that if you put an npov tag on an article, that you explain why you put the tag on in the article's Talk page, otherwise the npov tag will be removed. Corvus cornix 01:25, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Template:Pop-up
While patrolling my watchlist, I see someone added a new template on the Guan Yu page under the "Physical appearance". The template in question shows pop-up messages when the cursor is on the text and seems to be newly-created just for this purpose on the Guan Yu article. My question is, is this sort of pop-up messages suitable on Wikipedia? _dk 23:54, 11 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I wouldn't think so. Footnotes serve the same purpose, and they're much less annoying. I'm going to put that one up at TFD. <em style="font-family:Bradley Hand ITC;color:blue">Hers <em style="font-family:Bradley Hand ITC;color:gold">fold  (t/a/c) 00:21, 12 August 2007 (UTC)