Wikipedia:Help desk/Archives/2007 October 1

= October 1 =

workscited for wiki!
info to create a works cited for my project please. 76.30.166.146 01:46, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Try EasyBib.com. In the future, though, please do your own homework. GlassCobra 01:50, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Or more detailed instructions here, or a quicker too here. Note that students are generally discouraged from using just about any encyclopedia for research work, Wikipedia being in no way an exception. --YbborTalk 01:51, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

undoing a redirect
I've made pages for the following Australian casino games: "Treasury 21", "Jupiters 21", "Paradise Pontoon", and "Federal Pontoon". Since they are all varieties of the game "Pontoon", I redirected each of them to "Pontoon". However, they each have slightly different rules, so I want to make a short page for each of them. How do I undo the redirect so I can create an actual, distinct page for each of them? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Iezegrim (talk • contribs) 02:02, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
 * What you should do is go to the articles, and when it redirects, under the title, it'll say "Redirected from "page"". Click on the link, and it should have an arrow pointing to the redirect link. You can then edit the page and remove the redirect and add whatever you want. Ne ra n e i   (talk) 02:10, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Alternately, you can note the different rules as subheadings/sections on the Pontoon page, and then put the redirect to those sections. &mdash; Timotab Timothy (not Timdagnabbit!) 04:02, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

New Page
Hi, i wanted to start a page, as i noticed it was not yet on wikipedia. Could you advise me on how to start a page?

Thank you,

Adam Ryder. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Adamryder (talk • contribs) 02:32, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Before creating an article, please search Wikipedia first to make sure that an article does not already exist on the subject. Please also review a few of our relevant policies and guidelines which all articles should comport with. As Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, articles must not contain original research, must be written from a neutral point of view, should cite to reliable sources which verify their content and must not contain unsourced, negative content about living people.
 * Before creating an article, please search Wikipedia first to make sure that an article does not already exist on the subject. Please also review a few of our relevant policies and guidelines which all articles should comport with. As Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, articles must not contain original research, must be written from a neutral point of view, should cite to reliable sources which verify their content and must not contain unsourced, negative content about living people.


 * Articles must also demonstrate the notability of the subject. Please see our subject specific guidelines for people, bands and musicians, companies and organizations and web content and note that if you are closely associated with the subject, our conflict of interest guideline strongly recommends against you creating the article.


 * If you still think an article is appropriate, see Help:Starting a new page. You might also look at Your first article and How to write a great article for guidance, and please consider taking a tour through the Tutorial so that you know how to properly format the article before creation. GlassCobra 02:38, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Advice
I noticed that it was hard to find information on introductory physics (high-school level). I'm willing to work on pages but I'm not quite sure how to organize it since I'm lacking Wikipedia policy knowledge. Here are some topics that I would be interested in writing about:
 * Motion graphs
 * Distance-time graph
 * Position-time graph
 * Speed-time graph
 * Velocity-time graph

I'm not sure how to organize these. I was thinking of maybe creating a Motion Graphs (introduction) page because the normal one is too technical. Would that be acceptable?

Additionally, what page categories would be applicable.

Any suggestions?

Sorry if this isn't the right place to discuss this. Billy 03:02, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
 * The Help desk is usually a good place to start. I suggest reading WikiProject Physics to get a solid idea of what's already here, or what the physics-minded contributors are already working on. And see Help:Search and WP:EIW to be sure you won't be duplicating any existing content. Previously on the Help desk there was some discussion of the similar case of General relativity (technical) and Introduction to general relativity (not so technical). You might want to check the histories and talk pages of those articles to see what led up to them, and whether this is part of a trend that needs expanding. --Teratornis 04:53, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I looked at WikiProject Physics and it looks like one of our better WikiProjects, with lots of participants who know what they are doing. Almost certainly you should join that project and coordinate your efforts with them. You could copy your question to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Physics and ask for advice. But first, I suggest searching the archived talk pages, which you can do with this handy Google search. Before asking a question it's good to search for previous discussions of it. For example, here is a search of the project talk archive for "introductory physics", which finds, among other things, a Category:Introductory physics. --Teratornis 05:06, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Question
Is the user Animum an admin? He/She claimed that was the case on my user page here, then deleted it. I'm just curious. futurebird 04:27, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Evidently so. --Teratornis 04:43, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the fast response. futurebird 04:47, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
 * No problem. I just happened to randomly check in and there was a question I knew how to answer. Of course I worry about answering the bottom question in the list because that's like asking to get an edit conflict. Hopefully Liquid threads will be everything I want it to be and we won't have to worry about edit conflicts on talk pages (or pseudo talk pages like the Help desk) someday. --Teratornis 05:12, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Coding help needed please
Please take a look at the top-most entries in Articles for deletion/Log/2007 October 1. I just added an AfD for Jewel Eich and below it there's an entry for Terms for gay in different languages -- and for the life of me, I can't figure out what the problem is with the coding of that one, it's just not coming out properly. Assistance would be greatly appreciated. Accounting4Taste 05:21, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Problem solved quickly and easily thanks to Flyguy649, thanks very much. Accounting4Taste 05:28, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

distance
how to locate the distance between united states cities —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.129.230.13 (talk) 06:02, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Sorry, this page is for questions on how to use and contribute to Wikipedia, for factual questions see the Reference Desk. You could try this or this though. — PhilHibbs | talk 10:05, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Edit went missing

 * I added the title to this question. — PhilHibbs | talk 10:02, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

I am quite enraged at this moment, I spent the better part of 4 hours writing an accurate synopsis for a television show that currently has nothing more then a very poor summary, all this only to have my work vanish!...I am extremely upset by this and would like for someone to contact me asap!,it would have been so easy to have a simple "submit" box near the story box but instead I had to try various areas to attempt my submission, this of course led to the loss of the afore mentioned article. I wonder if this has happened to others...I really cannot begin to explain how angry I am over this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.234.37.96 (talk) 06:31, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
 * You save an edit to an article by clicking "Save page" below the edit box, like you must have done to make this post. Sometimes an attempt to save causes an error. I have tried this and know it's frustrating. If you have written a lot then I recommend copying it to another place, for example a text editor, before saving. Then you can copy back to a new edit window if something went wrong. The browser's back button will often forget text you have written in a box. If you want to look at other pages before saving then open a new browser window. By the way, beware of WP:PLOT. Some long plot summaries are deleted or shortened. PrimeHunter 11:58, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I have found that clicking the "Show preview" button frequently while I edit seems to increase the chance that the "back" button in my Web browser can return me to an edit window containing my text, but of course this is not reliable enough to depend on. (I use Mozilla Firefox.) To 71.234.37.96, I understand your frustration, because I have lost various chunks of work over the 20+ years I have been getting screwed by using computers. Wikipedia is an especially unreliable editor, because Wikipedia uses what is called the "thin client" model. That is, the currently available Web browsers make for very low-powered text editors, lacking safety features such as autosave you may have come to expect from desktop applications. To protect yourself, consider using an external editor as PrimeHunter recommends. Another option is to edit in smaller increments and click the "Save" button more often (as a side benefit, doing so also decreases your chance of getting an edit conflict). In general, the first time you use any new application software, it's best to start with small tasks to get a feel for how the application works, before attempting anything larger. --Teratornis 15:24, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Indian Statistical Institute, New Delhi
I wish to know the address of institutes in Delhi that teaches short term courses in Statistics. I beleive there is one in Katwariasarai.

Shall appreciate if I could get their website.

Thanks

Sampat Kumar SivansampatSampat Kumar Sivan 09:53, 1 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Sorry, this page is for questions on how to use and contribute to Wikipedia, for factual questions see the Reference Desk. — PhilHibbs | talk 09:59, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

savetheworldfree.ning.com
I am trying to do 3 things 1 is to close my wiki account but don't know how! Perhaps only admins can close it but how do make a request? I am also promoting the website SavetheWorldfree.ning.com a not for profit site established in 2003 I will open a new account as someone not associated with the website so I can insure it gets a mention in Wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Iradminru (talk • contribs) 10:33, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I just looked at the page of this savethewordfee.org Be assured, as soon as an article about this not notable organization appears, others have to be very fast to beat me in proposing it's deletion. An editor, who tells us, that he wants to write an article although he has a close relationship to the object of the article, will perhaps violate the rules of Wikipedia, if he writes such an article and there is a high chance of deletion, because many will watch. Nevertheless, such an editor is doing an honorable act. What you want to do is just dishonorable.--Thw1309 11:36, 1 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Accounts cannot be deleted. See Right to vanish. Also see Conflict of interest and Sock puppetry. PrimeHunter 12:03, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Iradminru and saveNaturefree is not associated with savetheworldfree.org

= savetheworldfree.ning.com = I am not at all a dishonorable man, that is why I want to do the things mentioned. However It seems to be difficult if not impossible to convince skeptics that saveNaturefree (over 620 members) in 50 countries, is a remarkable endeavor. what I wanted to achieve is a wiki page on the subject of the web site SavetheWorldfree.ning.com a wiki item will eventuate sooner or later. I just have to be humble enough to cop the skepticism, correspond with an editor who is interested in the conservation of nature and the incredible, priceless, natural environment the worlds humans depend on.

problem creating an account
I have started creating an account under the user name 'srutherford'.

I entered a password + the security question, and provided an email address. However the first password was rejected. After several attempts I may have had a second password accepted, but wasn't sure.

I then used the 'email new password' to try to fix this, but nothing has arrived in my email (this is 16 hrs later).

Please can you fix or contact me directly. steve_rutherford _at_ btinternet [dot] com —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.250.75.170 (talk) 12:42, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Have you ever had an email from wiki@wikimedia.org? This should have arrived to confirm your email address. If you haven't, it's likely you typoed on your email originally; unfortunately, there's then no way to regain control of the account, or even to find out what email you entered, unless you can remember the original password. (You can't use a password that's the same as your username, or a blank password, but otherwise the password ought to have been accepted; can you remember any error messages you may have seen while signing up?) --ais523 14:52, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually, if the account has no edits (as is the case with this account), it may be possible to usurp it. &mdash; Timotab Timothy (not Timdagnabbit!) 04:07, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

human race
What reasons would you give a new born baby for wanting to reserve its place? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.144.195.105 (talk) 13:07, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Presumably we are to treat this as a thought question and ignore the seemingly impossible precocity a newborn baby would need to have any concept of "its place." Playing along with the outlandish premise, I would recount the reasons Richard Dawkins explained in The Selfish Gene. However, if you do a bad job of that, your teacher will probably give you a low mark on this homework problem. --Teratornis 15:00, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

davinci code
is christ was a man? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nagtatanung (talk • contribs) 14:20, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Would you base your belief on my answer? If so, you might want to brush up on Critical thinking. The Jesus article summarizes the opinions of various people on the subject. The Da Vinci Code is a work of popular fiction, milking the same plot devices as Raiders of the Lost Ark, National Treasure (film), etc.; then again, some people say the same about the Bible, while other people would like to kill people who say things like that. --Teratornis 15:08, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

make a correction to an article?
Good Morning

I was reading an article on Senator Jim Webb, which was really good. I did see an error, though. The article states, " Webb is a retired Marine Corps infantry officer until 1972," Military personnel do not typically retire after 4 years of service....20 years is the norm. There are extenuating circumstances, i.e. a medical condition that arises after entry to military service, but those are rare, and would have been noted. Senator Webb is a former Marine Corps infantry officer who served with distinction and valor and should be recognized accordingly. If you have any questions, I will be happy to help.

Debbie Key —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.146.90.88 (talk) 14:51, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your suggestion. When you feel an article needs improvement, please feel free to make those changes. Wikipedia is a wiki, so anyone can edit almost any article by simply following the  link at the top. The Wikipedia community encourages you to be bold in updating pages. Don't worry too much about making honest mistakes — they're likely to be found and corrected quickly. If you're not sure how editing works, check out how to edit a page, or use the sandbox to try out your editing skills.  New contributors are always welcome. You don't even need to log in (although there are many reasons why you might want to).    Leebo   T / C  17:02, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

adding a stub to KY pages?
I would like to contribute to the jenny wiley page and feel a stub on the Ky page would also be applicable

Harmans Station
Was considered by most early historians notable: Virgil Lewis and William Esley Connelley as possibly being the first log cabin ever built circa 1750; in the State of Kentucky it was initially a "blockhouse" Hunting Lodge that eventually became a settlement.

William Connelly quoted:

"The founding of Harman's Station on the Louisa River was directly caused by a tragedy as dark and horrible as any ever perpetrated by the savages upon the exposed and dangerous frontier of Virginia. The destruction of the home of Thomas Wiley in the valley of Walker's Creek, the murder of his children, the captivity of his wife by savages and her miraculous escape were the first incidents in a series of events in the history of Kentucky which properly belong to the annals of the Big Sandy Valley." --Beachbumz 15:11, 1 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Then be bold and create the article! :)  &mdash; Timotab Timothy (not Timdagnabbit!) 04:10, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Linking two pages
How do I link a new page to an existing page that has the same name but bears the prefix "The' before the name of the organization?Heather Chait —Preceding signed but undated comment was added at 16:16, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Article names should not include the word "The". See WP:NAME.  Lara  ❤  Love  16:18, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Presumably this issue would be resolved if someone moved The Center for Cultural Judaism to Center for Cultural Judaism, (which would automatically create a page-redirect from the first of those to the second). Heather, would that deal with your question? If yes, one of us could do it for you - although looking at your edit history, I assume you have a move tab on your own screen: am I right? AndyJones 19:05, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Jimbo quote
Does anyone know where Jimbo's quote about Wikipedia having limitless bandwidth is?  Lara  ❤  Love  18:08, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Beats me, but this Google search finds some interesting stuff. Such as: For most ISPs, "unlimited" doesn't actually mean *unlimited*. It means you are expected to use the typical amount of bandwidth, and if you exceed the allocated amount, you're metered and: Wikipedia has a single employee and, according to founder Jimmy Wales, pays about $5,000 a month in bandwidth costs for roughly 1.6 billion page views per month. So, taking a wild guess here, maybe the quote you heard (which I have no idea of) refers to Wikipedia's ability to purchase all the bandwidth it needs (for now). --Teratornis 18:52, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Where is my article?
My article "AM Only" was deleted. I was told to do a version of the article in an area where it couldn't be deleted (not a "sandbox", but something similar), and once I found enough material to add, I could put that additional material in the real article. But I don't know where my article (the new one I created in what is not a "sandbox") is. I do know that the article (the one actually appearing on Wikipedia) has been revised and apparently accepted, and my name is in the history, even though nothing I did is there. Where is my article so I can re-add a portion of my contributions? Vchimpanzee 18:19, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
 * See WP:WWMPD. A relevant excerpt: If you did not save such a copy, you will have to ask an administrator to retrieve a copy for you. --Teratornis 18:42, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Someone moved AM Only to America's Best Music. It wasn't deleted. Also, your user subpage, User:Vchimpanzee/Draft articles‎, still contains the draft you wrote about AM Only if you want it for reference.  Leebo  T / C  18:46, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

It was deleted, because it was replaced with a Redirect to Westwood One. I'm going to try to restore as many contributions as I can. Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vchimpanzee (talk • contribs) 20:24, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Perhaps the terminology is the problem here. It was not "deleted" in the sense that it went through one of the recognized deletion processes. Yes, someone redirected the page, but your edits are still in the history.  Leebo  T / C  20:34, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_the_Dragon
There are two reliable books on The Order of the Dragon: Y. Stoyanov (2000) The Other God: Dualist Religions from Antiquities to the Cathar Heresey. New Haven: Yale University Press; and C.D. Clements (2006)The Order of the Dragon: The Battle Between The 'Other History' And The Accepted History. NY: Dragovitse Press/Booksurge (available on Amazon.com and Borders.com). The Order was reconstituted by King Sisismund of Hungary in 1408, but existed far before that or the group that Obilic formed to assassinate Sultan Murad and protect Bosnia from the Ottomans. In its reconstituted form, it was not a Catholic or Orthodox religious order. Rather, it was what one of its members, Count Hrovje Vukcic declared it: "a pagan rite." The Count was a heretical Patarene/Pagan himself, and would have known. It was also likely associated with the Bosnian Ecclesiae (Churches) that were viewed as a "Great Heresy" by both Catholic and Orthodox Christians, and that was a development of the Two Principles ancient Eurasian religion that Stoyanov describes and that Clements also traces. The mother church was not the Patarene Ecclesia Sclavonica, but the Ecclesia Drugunthiae (Church of the Dragon). To the contention in the Wikipedia article that this Order was Christian and dedicated to saving the Cross is in error. In fact, along with the Cathars, the Bogomils, Patarenes, Paulicians and others of this "Great Heterodoxy" (Clements) despised the symbol of the cross as crucifixion -- although their sun signs could take such a Maltese Cross form.

The Count, in fact, left Sigismund's Court and defeated the King in battle. The result was reestablishment of the Bosnian Church as the official (and pagan) church of Bosnia.

Another arm of the Dragon Military order was most probably the "Lizard" League of Culm, in what is now Poland. Another pagan area, its language translates 'lizard' as 'dragon,' so it is more accurate to call this the Dragon League. It fought with the Teutonic Knights at the Battle of Tannenberg, and the next Grand Master of the Teutonic Knights accused it of leaving the field of battle and resulting in the defeat of the Knights. Since the Knights were fighting King Jagiello of Poland (who was Lithuanian and at heart likely a pagan) and Prince Vyatatus of Lithuania (who was certainly a pagan Lithuanian), the charge of leaving the battle is probably accurate. The Culm Lizard League is from an ancient culture that goes back to northern Eurasia and the Two Principles religion (Stoyanov and Clements). It is also likely associated with the Indus Rock carving of the Draco Constellation, the polar star in 10,500 BC. Finally, there is a castle keep near Prerov, Czech Republic, dating in the 300 ADs, and bearing the red and white marking of the Dragon Order (blood-red encircling white). So this military group is far older than the Wikipedia article suggests.

Also, the insignia pin is in a European museum, and the cover of Clements' book uses that pin.

I have not contacted Wikipedia before, and am unsure of the process. My lawyer son thinks there might be copyright infringement, but I am more interested in correcting the description of The Order of the Dragon and referencing my book and Stoyanov's masterly work.

Dr. Colleen D. Clements 
 * Since Wikipedia is a wiki, you are free to make changes to the article if you have reliable sources to back up your information. Be bold in updating pages. You don't even have to log in. For more discussion on this specific issue, the talk page of the article, Talk:Order of the Dragon would be the appropriate forum.  Leebo  T / C  18:59, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Joe Francis Information
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Francis

I have been unable to edit Joe Francis' page. All of the information is acurate with sighting... no matter the size of the edit, the bot replaces the content each time. Some of the material up there is just alleged and though they link to articles online, that does not make them true whereas the content I would be replacing it with covers the events acurately with verified sourcing.

Please Help! —Preceding unsigned comment added by MadnessMaker.com (talk • contribs) 19:04, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
 * You haven't made any edits to the article with this account. A user name Neocaterpillar was edit warring with one of the vandalism-removal bots because he kept trying to add a long first-person narrative to the article. Is that what you're referring to?  Leebo  T / C  19:11, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Drop-down list
How does one create the drop-down lists such as the ones that are used in various category pages? Thanks.

Jotsko 21:14, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Can you link to an example?  Leebo  T / C  21:18, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh, now I think I understand, you're talking about the minimized subcategories within a larger category. You can read all about how these categories are developed at Categorization. If you're referring to just using the same technique outside of subcategories, I don't know of a way.  Leebo  T / C  21:21, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Are you asking about mw:Extension:CategoryTree? I see that extension appears now in Special:Version. --Teratornis 21:29, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it is like the one's that are used in certain category views with the + symbol surrounded in brackets that allows a drop-down of subcategories to appear. I believe it may be called a "dynamic tree" because I'm not sure that I would be able to use the "category tree" outside of the category pages. I don't know what the encoding for this would be on a typical wikipedia page. [].

Jotsko 04:04, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
 * mw:Extension:CategoryTree looks straightforward enough (and thanks for calling my attention to this interesting extension, which I must now go install on some corporate wikis I administer), although it could stand to have some more defining links on jargon terms such as parser functions. See: mw:Extension:CategoryTree (what an unfortunately-named section heading, from the standpoint of trying to link to it). For example, if you wanted to display Category:Cycling as a tree list, you could say: . To avoid gumming up the Help desk with a big example, I put that on your talk page. Also note, you can refer to mw:Extension:Tree view via an interwiki link (as I did just then) rather than as an external link as you did above (with an extra pair of square brackets that the MediaWiki parser ignored). Also note, just because you can display a category tree on any page does not necessarily mean you should. Where do you want to display a category tree? As inline category trees are a new feature, they may not be in the Manual of style yet. On articles you should follow the Manual of style; on your user page and user subpages you can use (almost) whatever style you want. If all this seems complicated, that's because everything absolutely is complicated here. --Teratornis 16:29, 2 October 2007 (UTC)