Wikipedia:Help desk/Archives/2008 December 18

= December 18 =

WikiTravel
Is owned by Wikimedia Foundation, Inc?  206.72.25.210 (talk) 00:08, 18 December 2008 (UTC)


 * According to their about page http://wikitravel.org/en/Wikitravel:About, they are owned by "by Internet Brands, Inc., an operator of consumer information Web sites." &mdash; Sebastian 00:11, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
 * A list of all projects owned/operated by the Wikimedia Foundation can be found at m:Template:Sisterprojects. flaminglawyerc 06:21, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
 * The trademarks, branding, and servers are owned by Internet Brands; the content is owned by its contributors, just as on Wikipedia. =)  Powers T 13:40, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

How to edit the bugzilla guide?
Is the bugzilla guide not a wiki? I just read https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/docs/html/voting.html, which talks about some settings related to voting, but not about how to actually do the voting itself. When I eventually found that at Bug_reports_and_feature_requests), I wanted to copy it to the guide, but there is no edit button. &mdash; Sebastian 00:09, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
 * It seems to be a regular old HTML page. Xenon54 (Frohe Feiertage!) 02:11, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
 * All I see with a weak search attempt is Bugzilla, the above-mentioned Bug reports and feature requests, and Bugzilla. Possible strategies:
 * Use Bugzilla to report your suggested document changes, as a bug. Consider searching on Bugzilla to see if anyone has done this before. Maybe that is actually the method for submitting document change requests (I have no idea).
 * Track down some users who may have contributed to Bugzilla's documents, and ask them how they did it. (Maybe they had to check out HTML files from a CVS or Subversion repository and edit them with an editor program, just like how most Open Source software projects handle their source code. It's like a much less integrated implementation of what the MediaWiki software makes completely simple.)
 * --Teratornis (talk) 04:56, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Deleting User Subpages
Is it possible for me to delete my own subpages? If so, how? Kortaggio (talk) 02:18, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
 * If you put db-user on them, they will show up at CAT:CSD, and an admin will delete them for you in a short while. --barneca (talk) 02:24, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks! --Kortaggio (talk) 02:42, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Requesting an IP Address Block
How do I request a temporary block on an IP address? User:124.186.84.120 has been doing subtle vandalism to a number of pages, inserting spam links to bogus, official-sounding pages (presumably domains which he is cyber-squatting on). He is doing it quite subtly (usually in 2 edits, so that the most recent one looks benign), so I don't think he deserves a warning. Blocking IP addresses talks about it but doesn't say how to request it. Peter Ballard (talk) 06:29, 18 December 2008 (UTC)


 * You can report vandalism at WP:AIV. However, you should only report vandals there if they have had sufficient warnings, have vandalised after a recent final warning.  There are a number of warning templates you can use at WP:MLT.  Always start with the lowest (i.e. Level 1), if they have never been warned before. Stephen! Coming... 10:21, 18 December 2008 (UTC)


 * "sufficient warnings" on the IP's talk page are indeed part of the process, but it's not essential to "always start with the lowest level" and then slog through all the levels. you can use your discretion about what warning level(s) are appropriate and when to file a block request. Sssoul (talk) 10:49, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Recruitment/Vacancies
DEAR SIR/MADAM

I HAVE COME TO SOME SOURCES REGARDING RECRUTIMENT /VACANCIES IN UK THROUGH WINS.

THE AGENNT IS IN MUMBAI I.E WORLDWIDE IMMIGRATION & NATURALIZATION SERVICES, UNIT 233, B WING 2NFLOOR, OSHIWAR IND. ESTATE, OPP.OSHIWARA BUS DEPOT, LINK ROAD, GOREGAON (W) MUMBAI 400 062.

I WANT WHETHER HE IS REGISTERED ANGENT IN INDIA FOR RECRUITING PEOPLE IF YES GIVE ME THE DETAILS LIKE, REG./LIC. NO., CONCERN AUTHORITIES & THEIR BRANCHES

WAITING FOR YOUR REPLY.

[redacted]

REGARDS GANHES K. SAVARDEKAR —Preceding unsigned comment added by 61.95.226.18 (talk) 11:49, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
 * This page is for questions about Wikipedia. Please visit the reference desk instead. Also, it's not recommended to put personal contact details on this page since this page is very visible across the internet. - Mgm|(talk) 12:27, 18 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Note also that typing in all capital letters on the Internet is considered shouting and I don't think you meant to shout. Many people will ignore any post that is in all caps as a matter of course.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 12:33, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Adjacent tables
I was wondering how to make seperate tables adjacent to each other on a page. My tables have 2 columns and approx 20 rows. There are 4 different tables i'm trying to make adjacent. Any help would be greatly appreciated, as I would rather not have these long tables one on top of the other, making the page longer than it really needs to be. Thanks Devin5801 (talk) 15:48, 18 December 2008 (UTC)Devin5801


 * If you change the style of the table to inline, it will act like an image. A better way, if you want stricter control of how they line up, is to place each table inside a data cell of a table.  So, you have a table that contains a bunch of tables. --  k a i n a w &trade; 16:10, 18 December 2008 (UTC)


 * How do I go about putting each table in a data cell of a table?? Can you just give me like a real short clip of the beginning of what that code would look like? I know this is asking for a lot but I can't seem to figure it out, i've tried a few things. Thanks Devin5801 (talk) 16:49, 18 December 2008 (UTC)Devin5801


 * I guess what I really need to know is how to have one cell of the table span across two columns of data. For example, have a cell that says 2005 (my title cell) and underneath it have two columns, one saying City and the other saying Dates. Then underneath those i'm going to put the data for cities and dates in there. Devin5801 (talk) 17:04, 18 December 2008 (UTC)Devin5801
 * Add colspan=2 to the title cell's attributes. Help:Table provides examples (search for "colspan").  Powers T 18:01, 18 December 2008 (UTC)


 * You can use Col-begin; see the documentation for use. This actually creates a table that your tables are wrapped into. --—— Gadget850 (Ed)  talk  -  19:51, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Submitting an English version of an existing article on another language Wikipedia site
I am in the process of translating a French website into English where an article from the French Wikipedia site has a featured (and cited, with link) article that I consider perfectly adequate. To maintain consistancy, I would like to simply translate this article and include it on the English site. A very brief, few lines on the English site exists, entitled "Gard" departement in France, that correspond with introductory parts on the French site (which seems to have a copyright problem at the moment). I presume it would be useful to submit my translation to Wikipedia when I've finished it. Does that involve simply editing the existing English one? How do I credit the original?Smbt (talk) 15:53, 18 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't know a whole ton about this, but this page might be of use. Rtyq2 (talk) 16:05, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Just mention that it's a translation of the French article in the references section or on the talk page. I don't think there's a standard manner for this. - Mgm|(talk) 18:39, 18 December 2008 (UTC)


 * See the Translated template. – ukexpat (talk) 18:42, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Where to put?
My question is not related with wikipedia only. I'm from the malayalam wikmeia projects. My doubt is ,which is the place for Natanpatu's? I am no sure about the exact english word for it. I think its folk(NATan) song(pAttu). They are the songs people used to sing while they were working in the fields, fishing etc. They were passed to younger generation verbally. Many of them have never been published in books or something. So which wiki project is suitable for these? I know it is not wikipedia. (The malayalam wiki community is not sure about this. Thats why I asked here.) Thanku :)--Abhishek Jacob (talk) 16:41, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
 * This might be good for Wikisource. (I don't know very much about other Wiki projects, but that looks like the best place to me.) You might ask around over there. Hermione1980 18:00, 18 December 2008 (UTC)


 * If they are in an audio file form and are copyright free, Commons may be the best place for them. – ukexpat (talk) 18:44, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
 * See the article Sea shanty for an example of work songs from the maritime tradition. --Teratornis (talk) 04:58, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

clarification of wp:outing
hi everyone, i'm looking for some help regarding wp:outing. what confuses me is whether an accusation of sockpuppetry, where the suspected sockmaster has already been outed, would constitute outing? it's probably clearer if i give an example. let's say user:x's real life identity is already known as mr bloggs (either through some previous outing or through his own admission) as is the fact that mr bloggs is in a rock band that we know the name of. i see another user, user:y, making edits about this rock band that lead me to suspect them of being a sock of user:x.

wp:outing says "Posting another person's personal information...regardless of whether or not the information is actually correct...is harassment". so does this mean that if i:

a) accuse user:y of being mr bloggs or somebody else linked to him or his band

or even

b) accuse user:y of being a sockpuppet of user:x, based on the fact we know who user:x is, and avoid naming any names

that i myself could be accused of "outing" user:y? Jessi1989 (talk) 17:42, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Hmm, tricky, I thought I had an easy answer, but if you can't call someone a sockpuppeteer because they're outed that would protect an unconstructive editor rather than the good of the project. Personally, I'd throw the rulebook out the window the moment sockpuppetry or vandalism is involved (assuming said link is proven with a checkuser) - Mgm|(talk) 18:48, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
 * hi, thanks for replying so fast. i would like to agree with you about throwing out the rulebook, but outing seems like a pretty serious offense which can potentially cause problems in real life, not just on wikipedia. i'm not sure i get what you mean about checkuser, because we wouldn't know checkuser results until after the accusation has been made. thanks Jessi1989 (talk) 19:16, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
 * There are all sorts of arguments one could make. On the pro-outing side, one could say that the user has already been outed. Outing the sock doesn't make the outed user any more "out." If someone chooses to continue editing on Wikipedia after being outed once, they have to be at least somewhat aware of the possibility that they could get outed again. Particularly if they make a point of leaving a trail of gigantic clues. On the other hand, if you incorrectly out the sock, then you may create trouble for a person who is innocent of whatever the outed user was guilty of. So I would say if you are going to out someone, don't be wrong. On the no-outing side of the argument, one could point to the irreversibility of outing. Once you out someone, you cannot then un-out them (I'm tempted to mention the obvious analogy with virginity but I don't want to lose the family audience). Since this step is irreversible, you would want to proceed on a solid footing if possible. That's why you asked on the Help desk, of course, but we are mostly generalists. Depending on how much you think is at stake here, I would advise doing some further research if possible. Read everything under WP:EIW and try to find some past case histories to study. (For example, you could repeat your question on the talk pages of users who have contributed extensively to the sock-related pages, to see if they have any experience with a situation like this.) Wikipedia is so huge that one would think this sort of scenario has played out at least once before. If there are no clear rules to guide you, at least try to find some clear precedent. Is the situation some sort of ticking time bomb, or do you have time to reflect before pulling the trigger? --Teratornis (talk) 04:31, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
 * thanks for getting back to me. actually this relates to a present case on wikipedia but i wanted to be very careful not to name any names or bias the question with my own opinions on the matter. do you mean that outing is acceptable if it later turns out that the outing was correct and that the outed user has been breaking wikipedia's rules? i feel that outing is something to be taken very seriously because it relates to things in the real world. i mean, if the outing is correct, this could lead to malicious actions taken against the user in real life. another possibility is that this suspected sock is actually someone with malicious intent against mr bloggs. they could leave an obvious trail so that they get "outed" and their talk page gets filled with accusations saying that they are mr bloggs. then if they go and make a load of offensive edits suggesting they have extremist views or something which, if someone the real mr bloggs know were to see them, might cost mr bloggs his career/marriage/friends/etc. Jessi1989 (talk) 12:16, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
 * To answer the first question, I am not saying outing is "correct," I'm saying that if I were making the rules I would not consider outing an already outed editor to constitute much of an additional injury. However, I don't make the rules, and I don't know what the rules are in this case, so I gave some suggestions on how to find out what the rules are, if any rules exist. Wikipedia's rules exist in two forms: explicitly codified rules (the obvious kind), and implicit rules embodied in the established practice of relevant groups of editors (the tricky subtle kind). Despite the misconceptions in the WP:CREEP guideline, an important subtask on Wikipedia is to codify all the implicit rules into explicit rules (because There is no common sense).
 * You recognize the potential harm in an incorrect outing; me too, that's why I mentioned it. (Although I have to say, if someone's marriage depends on his ability to conceal his Wikipedia edits from his wife, the marriage sounds too delicate to survive the normal stresses that eventually strike most relationships. Marriage is an inherently difficult job for many if not most people, which is why the institution supports a vast industry of marriage counselors and divorce attorneys to deal with the routine failures.) However, if someone is masquerading as a mr bloggs sock, and doing a good job of it, then the harm may already be done, unless somehow you are the only person who can connect the dots. It seems to me that your outing would not be very convincing unless the connection was sufficiently obvious for others to be making the same connection already. If you are the first person to say what many other people are already thinking, it's not clear how much additional damage you did.
 * I can understand why you omit details from your question, but this makes the question harder to answer. Unless Wikipedia has an explicit rule already worked out for such cases, you'll have a hard time eliciting a good answer from someone else who doesn't know everything you know about the situation. Speaking hypothetically can only convey so much. So you'll have to do your own research. Fortunately on Wikipedia there is a vast amount of information to mine, since everything we do here we do in writing.
 * But since speaking hypothetically is all I can do, here's something else to consider. Why do you want to out this suspected sock? Wikipedia allows unregistered editors to edit, and since IP addresses lack a one-to-one mapping between humans (addresses may vary randomly or be shared), Wikipedia can only function if it does not require all users to have stable identities or pseudo-identities. Wikipedia has a "foundation principle" of Jimbo Wales that anyone can edit Wikipedia without having to register any sort of stable identity. An IP address is very much like a sock puppet, since the same person can edit under many different addresses. Wikipedia is able to deal with this ambiguous identity problem by having a set of rules complete enough to allow other editors to evaluate any particular edit on its own merits, without regard to the editor. The ability to associate edits with a particular editor is not necessary on a well-constructed wiki, it is merely a labor-saving convenience. When we view the history of a page, we know we should scrutinize the edits by unregistered users more carefully than edits by respected users we are familiar with. But no edit is exempt from scrutiny. Therefore, what would you expect to gain by outing the suspected sockpuppet? If you have some disagreement with some edit(s), can't you make your case without reference to the identity of the editor? An edit is either good or bad. It doesn't matter who made it. A "good" editor may make some bad edits, and a "bad" editor may make some good edits. (I am asking you to describe your goal, not your step.) There must be something you would expect to gain by outing the sockpuppet - what is that, and could you gain it by some other approach? --Teratornis (talk) 18:40, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
 * My opinion: Do not mention "Mr Bloggs" ever, in any new discussions: that would constitute a new "outing." Now, the rules for accusing a sock allow you to say "I think user y is a sock of usr x." But if user x is already outed as Mr. Bloggs, you are concerned that you are in effet outing user y. Your concern is laudable. I do not think you should mention the sockpuppetry if user x is no longer editing as user x. However, if user x is atill active adn usr y is supporting user x or continuing behabior that has already been censured, then you should raise the sock issue, but start by contacting user x via e-mail or at least on the user x talk page rather than on a forum. If x denies the sock take the isuse privately to a checkuser and request the checkuser to contact x privately if y is x. only if all else fails and after x has been warned, the checkuser can affirm that x is y publicly: This is not a second outing: it is a consequense of the inital outing and of subsequent behavior by x. -Arch dude (talk) 01:38, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
 * thanks for all your input, it's very helpful. :) Jessi1989 (talk) 05:07, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

New Account Email Confirmation
Forgot to "Unblock" wikipedia.org on my "Do Not Block" Email list. How can I get WIKIPEDIA to RESEND my "Confirmation Email"?

Thank you and Happy Holidays!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Charlotte1218 (talk • contribs) 18:36, 18 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Go to Special:ConfirmEmail. – ukexpat (talk) 18:45, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Pages not loading completely
Is there a reason why Businesses and organizations in Second Life cuts off midway through ref #70 even though there's more to the page beyond that? It does this every time, and purging doesn't help. My browser (latest FF) seems to always choke on 2's over a certain length. Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • (Broken clamshells • Otter chirps • HELP) 20:31, 18 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm using FF and it looks fine, unless I'm missing something. Is a screenshot possible? Rtyq2 (talk) 20:35, 18 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm using Safari, and it also looks fine for me. Could it be just the browser you are using? – RyanCross  ( talk ) 20:38, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Here's a pic. Note that when I click edit, it shows a couple more refs, a template, and a category, which don't show up for me when I just view the page. Ten Pound Hammer  and his otters • (Broken clamshells • Otter chirps • HELP) 20:39, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
 * It showed up just fine when I logged out, but when I logged in again it was still b0rked. Maybe HotCat is to blame? Ten Pound Hammer  and his otters • (Broken clamshells • Otter chirps • HELP) 20:44, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Can someone PLEASE take a look at this? I've tried purging, logging out, disabling HotCat, etc. and nothing works. I've seen this show up on other pages too, but only sporadically. Ten Pound Hammer  and his otters • (Broken clamshells • Otter chirps • HELP) 20:52, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Hmm... maybe try clearing User:TenPoundHammer/monobook.js entirely and load the page again, and see if there is still a problem. It could be something in your monobook, but we don't know exactly what it is in there, so just blank the page and see. No harm in trying. – RyanCross  ( talk ) 21:06, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
 * It appears there was a conversation about this at Template talk:Reflist. I didn't see a solution there, though. :(  TN ‑  X   - Man  21:08, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Have you tried Template:Reflist? PrimeHunter (talk) 21:56, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Blanking my Monobook.js seems to have worked. Ten Pound Hammer  and his otters • (Broken clamshells • Otter chirps • HELP) 22:36, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Good to hear, TPH. :-) If you still want to use gadgets, add whatever was in your monobook one-by-one and keep checking to see if the effect starts to occur again. If it starts happening again after you added a gadget, then whatever you just added must be the cause. – RyanCross  ( talk ) 23:29, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Editing the actual title of an article....
Someone very kindly has created a wikipedia article for me BUT they have used my married rather than professional name (I'm a writer). How do I delete that one word from the title of the article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by SteakTartare (talk • contribs) 20:51, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
 * What's the article? I'll move it for you. Ten Pound Hammer  and his otters • (Broken clamshells • Otter chirps • HELP) 20:52, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Ohh yes please - I have left details on your talk page - many thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by SteakTartare (talk • contribs) 21:08, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Just an FYI: Once your account has been active for four days and made at least ten edits, your account will be autoconfirmed. You'll see a "move" tab at the top of Wikipedia pages, which will allow you to move articles to a new title, provided the destination name doesn't already exist. Cheers!  TN ‑  X   - Man  21:12, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Nominate for DYK
I have tried very much to nominate an article for DYK (Did you know) but it isnt working! I have tried to nominate Valery Kobelev and in the 5th expansion criteria. The Rolling Camel (talk) 22:29, 18 December 2008 (UTC) something like this:
 * How is it not working? Ten Pound Hammer  and his otters • (Broken clamshells • Otter chirps • HELP) 22:34, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

(==Valery Kobelev==

'''{{{{{article1111}}}} }'''


 * Valery Kobelev has "performed the worst ski jumping crash ever.|expansion=The Rolling Camel... The Rolling Camel (talk) 22:41, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Where are you putting it at? It's supposed to go at T:TDYK. Ten Pound Hammer  and his otters • (Broken clamshells • Otter chirps • HELP) 22:44, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

User:Gracenotes/rollback.js will not install
I cannot get this to work. I have set my browser cache to 0MB AND restarted it. -- IRP ☎ 23:08, 18 December 2008 (UTC)


 * That does not clear your cache. Try holding shift or Ctrl while refreshing a Wikipedia page. – ukexpat (talk) 02:25, 19 December 2008 (UTC)