Wikipedia:Help desk/Archives/2008 February 16

= February 16 =

Wikiquote template
Do we have a mainspace template that basically says, "please consider moving this quotes section to Wikiquote instead." I'm pretty sure we have one, but I don't know how to find it.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 00:51, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes: Template:Copy to Wikiquote and Template:Copy section to Wikiquote. • Anakin  (talk) 01:49, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 03:54, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Rename to simple redirect not working
I just tried to rename "Yellow Fever (Hot Tuna album)" to "Yellow Fever (album)", per the guidelines at WikiProject Albums. I got a message saying "The page could not be moved: a page of that name already exists, or the name you have chosen is not valid...." The new name is a redirect page with no prior versions in its edit history, so I thought that this move should work. Thanks in advance for any help or insight. — Mudwater 01:13, 16 February 2008 (UTC)


 * You can move on top of a redirect only if it is a redirect to the article you are trying to move. In this case only if "Yellow Fever (album)" redirected to "Yellow Fever (Hot Tuna album)". So you'll have to request a move. Sbowers3 (talk) 01:22, 16 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I didn't know that. Thanks!  — Mudwater  01:48, 16 February 2008 (UTC)


 * No need to request it, I have done it for you. Prodego  talk  01:49, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Editing Question
I am a Master chess player and writer who is attempting, for the first time, to edit your excellent chess page, with a minor revision, in the post-1945 section.

I make my changes, click save, but find that the entire section seems to be absent.

Please advise.

Thank you very much.

Andrewjsacks (talk) 04:50, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
 * The edits worked just fine; the changes are there: . It might be a page caching problem: try refreshing the page. That said, the changes you've made so far seem to suffer from WP:PEACOCK problems; please glance over that essay briefly. The Evil Spartan (talk) 04:54, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Logging out everytime I close my Browser
Everytime I close FireFox I log out...same thing happens with IE. I clicked "Remember me". I've never had this issue before...help! Knowitall (talk) 04:58, 16 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Hey there! Thanks for using the help desk. Hmm, sounds tricky. Try going to the Tools menu, then click Options. Go to the Privacy tab and make sure "Accept cookies from sites" is checked and "always clear my private data when I close Firefox" is unchecked. This should help. Good luck! Master of Puppets   Call me MoP! ☺  05:01, 16 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm starting to experience the same problem using Internet Explorer. First it was just the French Wikipedia, then the English one started to do it. Now the German one has just started to. In all three cases they have started to forget my password within hours and, presenting me with my name only, expect me to put in the password manually, which they only did before on infrequent occasions (about once a fortnight, I seem to remember).


 * Alternatively, I can re-enter my name, in which case my computer remembers the password perfectly easily -- so it's not that!


 * As it doesn't apply to all pages, I imagine it might have something to do with the recent software upgrade. Could that be it? --PL (talk) 10:22, 16 February 2008 (UTC)


 * PS
 * It doesn't apply, for example, to Simple English Wikipedia, which is working as normal. Moreover, if I enter the wrong password here, ignore the resulting error screen and simply press 'Back', I find that I'm unaccountably signed in, and able to edit and sign off as usual, just as I am doing now. And decreasing the privacy protection makes no difference!


 * So it would seem that some kind of error has developed in Wikipedia's software. Who needs to be told? --PL (talk) 16:35, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I did what MoP suggested (the options were already correctly set), and this problem still occurs for me. I am also using Firefox. ~ UBeR (talk) 17:44, 16 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Ditto except I'm using IE. As the problem occurred after the switch to the new server, I'd have to assume Occam's razor.  &#0149;Jim 62 sch&#0149; dissera! 02:26, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I would (humbly) suggest that you all uncheck your various gadget options, maybe un-install your twinkles and AWB's, purge your browser cache, then manual-delete any cookies related to en.wikipedia (or anything-wiki-anything). Then reboot and try again before re-ticking any options. Go back to the bottom and try there. Franamax (talk) 02:40, 17 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Uh, not applicable. &#0149;Jim 62 sch&#0149; dissera! 04:48, 17 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Simple English Wikipedia is working fine, without any of that. So, curiously, is Wikipedia itself this morning (though not the French version). My computer and browser haven't changed: Wikipedia's software evidently has (unless the problem has now been solved). --PL (talk) 10:43, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

See Village pump %28technical%29. --hydnjo talk 13:34, 17 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks. Evidently it's not just me/us, then! Same thing in French and German, too. --PL (talk) 16:07, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Also see: Village pump %28technical%29, Village pump %28assistance%29, Help desk, Help desk, Help desk, Help desk and more I'm sure. --hydnjo talk 20:21, 18 February 2008 (UTC)


 * The problem with wiki continues as of this time stamp. It is now affecting multiple pages not just the main entry page. Obviously a major bug, virus or error has crept into the system and will be corrected by wiki soon. Fyunck(click) (talk) 00:17, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

children on wikipedia
Can you tell me what service you are doing by allowing people to view what's consider to be kiddie porn on wikipedia? I was horrified to see the controversial cover for virgin killer posted on wikipedia. When our kids are searching for different rock bands they've seen a link for they should never be subjected to any profane, never mind illegal, images! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.65.51.71 (talk) 05:10, 16 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Hi! Please note that Wikipedia is not censored, and users should browse at their own discretion. Master of Puppets   Call me MoP! ☺  05:14, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't want my young children to see such images either (of course, at some point neither of us are going to keep them out of used record shops). However, I also understand why Wikipedia has the censorship rule. As a compromise I point my children to the 2007 Wikipedia Selection for schools. &mdash;Noah 09:00, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
 * If readers of this page are curious about past discussions about this particular image they they should go read Images_and_media_for_deletion/2007_November_27. &mdash;Noah 09:16, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Gonintendo Article
Hello my name is DanJ and I am trying to create an article on a popular site Gonintendo. I was wondering if you could stop the people deleteing the article because the article is not small at all as they think. I even got permission from the guy who runs the site. I am not trying to be mean or anything but I just want to make this article but everytime I try to it gets deleted please help thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by DanJ (talk • contribs) 06:58, 16 February 2008 (UTC)


 * According to the deletion log at Gonintendo, the page has been deleted a total of six times, most recently for WP:CSD and WP:CSD. What this means is that the article did not establish why the site was important enough to be in Wikipedia, that is, its notability. In addition, it contained very little information, and was essentially a dictionary definition or entirely links to the site or other pages. If you would like more time to fully develop your article, you may do so on a user subpage such as User:DanJ/Gonintendo. As long as you are working on the article and remain active, that page will not be deleted, allowing you to work on your article until it meets the guidelines I've outlined above. Also, make sure that you write the article in your own words - text copied from another site will be considered a copyright violation and will be removed, even if the owner allows its use on Wikipedia. Wikipedia is mirrored elsewhere, so we cannot guarantee that the text will appear on Wikipedia only. For more help, you can check the links I've provided, or see our help page on writing your first article. I hope this helps! Hers fold  (t/a/c) 07:27, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

I want to change the title of a page i have created
I have created the roses,kings,castle page and was wondering how i change that title? i was also wondering whay, with the current title roses,kings,castles you can only find the page when typing it in precisely corrent in the search engine? when other pages can be found more easily —Preceding unsigned comment added by Greenlovesam (talk • contribs) 11:21, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
 * The page can be moved to a new location, but only by confirmed (ie. not-brand-new) editors. What page do you want to move it to? GBT/C 11:21, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

i want the title to be Roses Kings Castles (i.e. no commas) and i want it to appear on search results more easily (i.e. even if someone adds commas or whatever they can still find it..) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Greenlovesam (talk • contribs) 11:25, 16 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I've moved it for you . I'm not a great expert on the search function, so maybe someone else can help answer this one? In the meantime, I'm not sure the band meets the notability criteria - have a read of this page which sets out a bit more detail about what is required. GBT/C 11:28, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

oh thanks! oh i'm not sure about the notability thing. i've been asked to set this page up by adam ficek the musician. he's in babyshambles a major UK band (top 5 album and singles in charts) and his solo stuff is also used by the band on their Uk tours so its got a big fanbase. do you know how i can get the notibility thing so its not deleted? the help page seems pretty complicated —Preceding unsigned comment added by Greenlovesam (talk • contribs) 11:37, 16 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Having taken a very quick look, I suspect it may squeeze in under Contains at least one member who was once a part of or later joined a band that is otherwise notable; note that it is often most appropriate to use redirects in place of articles on side projects, early bands and such.. If they haven't released any albums as yet, can you link to any independent coverage from reliable sources - newspaper reviews, etc.? GBT/C 11:40, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

yeah got a link here from NME magazine (one of the UK's biggest music magazine's) http://www.nme.com/news/babyshambles/32742 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Greenlovesam (talk • contribs) 11:47, 16 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Ok...pop it in the article, then. It all helps. GBT/C 11:48, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

ok thank you. it is still titled Roses Kings Castles.. yes? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Greenlovesam (talk • contribs) 11:54, 16 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Nope, another editor has moved it back to Roses, Kings, Castles saying, in the edit summary, that that is the correct title of the band. GBT/C 11:55, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

ok. i'll ask adam later.. he should know what he wants it called! thanks for the help! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Greenlovesam (talk • contribs) 11:57, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

(ec)According to your source, the group's name is "Roses, Kings, Castles" (with commas). I have Moved the article to that name. It can still be found by Go-ing to "roses kings castles" (without commas and lower or upper case) because there are redirects from the other names.

You have a reference to NME magazine. References are best if they are part of the article itself, not mentioned on a Talk page or here on the Help desk. Notability requires references from reliable sources. It is not a subjective personal judgment; it requires objective evidence in the form of significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject. A link to MySpace, for instance, is not independent; a link to NME is independent and would help to demonstrate notability. Sbowers3 (talk) 12:06, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

so the NME article gives the page notability? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Greenlovesam (talk • contribs) 12:14, 16 February 2008 (UTC)


 * It's a start. A single reference doesn't show notability. Per WP:Notability: "A topic is presumed to be notable if it has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject." More than one reference would show "significant" coverage. Sbowers3 (talk) 12:19, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

ok i understand. Is the NME article + the fact that roses,kings,castles 'Contains at least one member who was once a part of or later joined a band that is otherwise notable; note that it is often most appropriate to use redirects in place of articles on side projects, early bands and such' enough to ensure the page wont be deleted? sorry about all the Q's, i'm very thankful for the help! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Greenlovesam (talk • contribs) 12:29, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Categorising a page
having set up the Roses, Kings, Castles page, it says it is 'uncategorized'. is it necessary to categorize the page, and if so how do i do this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Greenlovesam (talk • contribs) 13:16, 16 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Hi Greenlovesam. There are links on that "uncategorized" notice directing you to Categorization and Categorization FAQ. However, those pages on instructions are perhaps too much to take in at once (and I've never read through them in three years). Essentially, categorisation allows people to find articles much more easily, so what you (or someone) ought to do is add whatever categories you think the article naturally falls into. Try browsing through Category:Music to find suitable categories. When you find suitable ones, the syntax is " ", and they go at the end of the article.--86.149.54.221 (talk) 13:57, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Thank you! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.68.47.105 (talk) 14:01, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Changing/editing name of article
How can I change or edit the name (title) of an article - in particular one that I, myself, have initiated? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.103.182.217 (talk) 16:16, 16 February 2008 (UTC)


 * See WP:MOVE.  Jacek  Kendysz  16:27, 16 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I think you first have to log in as a registered user. It's super-easy to register an account name (as long as you can think up a name that isn't taken yet!)  Just click log in/register at the top right of the screen.  See Why create an account? and Help:Logging in. Once you're logged in, I think whenever you're at a page that can be moved, that is, almost any article, you'll see a tab at the top of the screen marked "move", between the "history" tab and the "watch" tab (which is another tab that appears when you log in).  If you don't see these, maybe that's one of the things that you only get after you've had your login account for 4 days.  Anyway, once you're able to see the "move" tabs, just go to the article and then click "move" and you can easily rename the article.  Feel free to ask me at my talk page or ask here again if you have any trouble;  perhaps I or someone else can move the page for you if you can't. --Coppertwig (talk) 17:54, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
 * WP:ACCOUNT lists several editing features that only registered users have, and the only one of these the WP:ACCOUNT page lists as having a four-day waiting period is the ability to edit a semi-protected page. That suggests the new account immediately gains the ability to move pages. (Of course, it is possible for a help page to lag behind feature changes on Wikipedia. When someone changes a feature on Wikipedia, some time may elapse before other users update all the help pages to reflect the change.) --Teratornis (talk) 20:39, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Frequent Logouts
Recently, I keep getting logged out of WP every two hours or so, even though I have checked "Remember me". The session usually does not expire that quickly. Any reason for this? --Schzmo (talk) 17:02, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm suffering from this as well, it's quite annoying. Knowitall (talk) 18:53, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
 * You two aren't the only ones. I think someone should report this. STORMTRACKER    94  Go Sox! 19:29, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm just making a wild guess, but could it have anything to do with autoblocks combined with switching from one IP address to another if you're using shared IP's? (I don't know if that's possible or not.  Maybe an autoblock would necessarily mean you can't edit at all.  I'm not sure.  What if it's an autoblock that only keeps out non-logged-in users, if there's such a thing?) --Coppertwig (talk) 21:47, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm not on a shared IP address, and I only use this account. There have been no blocks on my IP. This may be another problem. STORMTRACKER    94  Go Sox! 22:05, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

See Village pump %28technical%29 --hydnjo talk 13:24, 17 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Village pump %28technical%29, Help desk, Help desk, Help desk, Help desk, and others I'm sure. --hydnjo talk 21:17, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Proper Band Templates
I noticed that on the template for some bands, such as ABBA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:ABBA), they list all, or the majority of the singles that said band has released. However, on some other bands, such as Queen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Queen), they're left out. I'd assume they're suppose to be there but I'm not sure, can someone clarify this? Or does it depend on how big the template is already, etc.? 71.7.137.46 (talk) 17:57, 16 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Template:Queen links to Template:Queen singles. I think it would become too large for a navigation box together. Template:Queen by itself is already larger than Template:ABBA. PrimeHunter (talk) 18:21, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Making an anchor and referencing it...
Hi,

I've tried doing this for hours, and no dice.

I'd like to make an anchor beginning at a subsection--section 3.1 in The Holocaust. It is a crucial, reasoned section on how the # of victims can be estimated.

There are so many disparate numbers floating around in so many articles, with so many different cites (if given at all, some with endless disputes) that it would be worthwhile to refer readers to a solid discussion.

I would also need to know how to make the reference to that anchor :) ...

Thanks a lot,---Shlishke (talk) 20:04, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
 * How about this:
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust#Victims_and_death_toll
 * or this
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust#Poles_and_Slavs
 * The interwiki version would be The_Holocaust which you can make look better by doing Holocaust death toll which creates this link: Holocaust death toll
 * &mdash;Noah 20:15, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
 * See: Help:Link. --Teratornis (talk) 20:32, 16 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Note that links to section headings will break if the section name changes (they work if the whole article is moved). You could create a redirect at Holocaust death toll with the text:
 * #REDIRECT [[The Holocaust ]] R with possibilities
 * If the redirect is later pointed to a new target or becomes an article then all pages using the redirect will go there. PrimeHunter (talk) 21:07, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I made the redirect myself. PrimeHunter (talk) 21:12, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Removing NFCC#10C warnings
A user has the mistaken opinion that non-free logo by itself qualifies as a non-free use rationale, and has a habit for removing NFCC#10C warnings from images like Image:Euskal Herritarrok logo.jpg. I don’t want to get into a revert war with him. What should be done? --—teb728 t c 21:12, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Apparently you're talking about Sugaar and you've already had a discussion with the user via user talk page. I have a few ideas.  Unfortunately I can't help you much because I don't feel I know much about fair use rationale policy -- maybe other help desk answerers can help.  But one idea is for you to find a good fair use rationale for a logo, (or fix up one of the images Sugaar is concerned with:  add a rationale yourself) and show it to Sugaar, so that Sugaar will know how to do it.  Another idea is to try to get other people to comment.  Maybe posting here is enough for that.  Wait -- I just found a page which may be just what you want:  try posting at Media copyright questions.  I suggest you ask there whether the tags Sugaar wants to use are good enough (even though you already know the answer), then show the answer to Sugaar. You might want to wait a short while first to see if anybody else answers here.  I hope this helps. --Coppertwig (talk) 21:41, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
 * As you say I could easily provide a rationale myself. But unless I monitor all of his edits, that does nothing about his disruption. This is not the only image he has removed warnings from. —teb728 t c 22:58, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Public barnstar: you guys who give help are the best
I thought someone should simply put that as the entire message and subject heading.

---Shlishke (talk) 21:20, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I think it's great how everybody helps everybody else out here.  The ones asking for help are also helping, by adding content to the encyclopedia. :-)  Go Wikipedia. --Coppertwig (talk) 21:29, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks! Per above! -- The  Helpful   One  (Review) 21:34, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks! PrimeHunter (talk) 21:37, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Man, that would be a lot of barnstars to dish out if done individually : )  Wisdom89  ( T |undefined /  C ) 22:10, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia's Help desk works as well as any technical support I have seen in 20 years of computing, and I have experience with commerial support as both a user and a provider. I'm amazed not by just the quality and speed of answers, but even more by the fact that it's all done by volunteers. In the corporate world, technical support tends to be such miserable work that few people view it as their career of first choice, and the burnout rate is high. But on Wikipedia, answering questions is actually fun. Also on Wikipedia, we can easily build tools to improve our efficiency at answering questions, such as the Editor's index, the standard response templates, search templates such as Google help desk, and other stuff we are going to think of. --Teratornis (talk) 02:45, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks! It's nice to occasionally get feedback like this. It helps prevent Helpdesk burnout. Helpdesk volunteers are entirely self-selected: anyone can answer questions. The best way to thank us is to stop by occasionally and answer questions here. -Arch dude (talk) 02:52, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

How to enter coordinates
I was wondering how to enter coordinates of a small town in India,Anklav. The coordinates are 22°23'59"N 73°0'0"E. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.99.41.74 (talk) 22:06, 16 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Have a look at coord. If that turns out to be too confusing, just give another shout. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 22:10, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Mat Roy Thompson
Errors of fact in article on Mat Roy Thompson (and I can't figure out how to edit them).

Matthew Roy Thompson was Mat Roy and Patience's third son, not the first. Mat Roy and Patience eventually had six children: Philip, born 1896; Ralph, born 1899; Matthew, born 1900; Hugh, born 1905; Patience, born 1910; and Maxine, born 1915.

Source: Family history. I am Matthew's son, Mat Roy's grandson. email: —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.217.117.215 (talk) 22:27, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Click "edit this page" at the top of the page to fix an error. Be aware that personal knowledge is construed as original research and your edit can be reverted. Xenon54 01:47, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * But replacing an unsourced assertion of fact with another unsourced assertion of fact is unlikely to cause problems unless somebody else objects. So yes, somebody might revert your edit, but it's not likely. However, we would greatly appreciate it if you can find a reliable source, and cite the source in the article. This requires a bit of explanation. Contributore sucyh as yourself are understandably affronted when we do not accept your expertise. However, Wikipedia is the encyclopedia that "anybody can edit," and more than 6,000,000 people have edited. We do not have a mechanism to verify the identities of our editors, so we cannot hold our editors responsible for the facts they add. Therefore we try hard to have cite teh facts to sources that can in fact ve verified. -Arch dude (talk) 02:46, 17 February 2008 (UTC)