Wikipedia:Help desk/Archives/2008 January 6

= January 6 =

nazrul
hi why we need negative number —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.236.132.190 (talk) 00:21, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, but I fail to see what you are asking, could you elaborate, please? Qst 00:22, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

what do you mean —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.236.132.190 (talk) 00:27, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
 * That's what Qst is asking. What is your question about?  N F 24 (radio me!) 00:33, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
 * This page is meant for questions concerning Wikipedia, not for it's content. --Sigma 7 (talk) 00:35, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
 * No, all Wikipedia-related questions are welcome here, not just Wikipedia only, it's content can be questioned here, too. Qst 00:38, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I think the IP is asking about the little red number next to all the edits. If so, then it means that there are less bytes in the page (it's not WikiPoints! or anything like that). Someone did actually ask me before if they were points. Feed  back  ☎ 00:40, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
 * (edit conflict) My bad. By checking the contributions, I see he/she was asking about []. However, this is a question for the Reference Desk, just like Sigma 7 said. Feed  back  ☎ 00:44, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Nazrul, see here. Feed  back  ☎ 00:45, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

what is the negative number —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.236.132.190 (talk) 00:46, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
 * See above.  N F 24 (radio me!) 00:46, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I think he/she is pulling a rib on us and is vandalizing. Feed  back  ☎ 00:49, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
 * It's always a possibility, but what happened to WP:AGF? To answer the question, the numbers next to edits show how much text was added or removed. A negative number means text was removed, while a positive number means text was added. The numbers are colored for convenience. Pyrospirit  ( talk  ·  contribs ) 01:10, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Editing
How do i edit pages?Zuko11 (talk) 01:19, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
 * See Help:Editing and come back if you have a more specific problem. PrimeHunter (talk) 01:23, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Molecular and Cellular Biology (journal)
Could someone create Molecular and Cellular Biology (journal) with the following content.. taken from an old revision of the Molecular and Cellular Biology page..?--69.118.143.107 (talk) 01:26, 6 January 2008 (UTC) {{hidden| Molecular and Cellular Biology is an academic journal published by the American Society for Microbiology. The title is commonly abbreviated MCB and the ISSN is 0270-7306 for the print version, and 1098-5549 for the electronic version.

Molecular and Cellular Biology is an authoritative source of fundamental knowledge and new developments in all aspects of the molecular biology of eukaryotic cells. Essential to all scientists in the field, MCB publishes work on microbial as well as higher organisms and on viral systems where emphasis is clearly on the cell.

Out of control image on the loose at Backcrossing
I have two questions about my image at Backcrossing: 1) why does it look such appalling quality when it's an SVG made from scratch in Inkscape? 2) why is it out of control? Seans Potato Business 01:43, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
 * It's so large because frame is used. It displays the original size. See Help:Magic words. PrimeHunter (talk) 02:06, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
 * When you use the frame attribute and the thumb attribute at the same time, frame will override thumb resulting in a full sized image.--69.118.143.107 (talk) 02:09, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Why was the quality of the image so poor? It should have been smooth. It needs to be in a frame in order to show the caption but thumb is far to small for the image to be of use. Should be at least 400px to be readable). --Seans Potato Business 02:24, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
 * You can specify a size with thumb. See Help:Images and other uploaded files. PrimeHunter (talk) 04:09, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

How old?
How old does an account have to be to upload new versions of files, move articles and edit semi-protected pages? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rappingwonders2 (talk • contribs) 02:10, 6 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Four days. In the mean time you can ask people here to do your bidding :) Seans Potato Business 02:26, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Enlarging words
how do you enlarge words? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wtfdontkill (talk • contribs) 02:28, 6 January 2008 (UTC)


 * To make all words in your browser larger, go to View -> Text size. To make words larger in Wikipedia on a specific page, use either  tags or , replacing X with the percentage, e.g. 200% to double the size. Does this answer your question?  Pyrospirit  ( talk  ·  contribs ) 02:52, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

new user
Block quote How do I start a new page —Preceding unsigned comment added by Crredrider (talk • contribs)


 * Hi. Welcome to Wikipedia! See: Your first article. You might also look at How to write a great article.  W ODU P  03:30, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Band Page
I am making a band page for Wikipedia and I wanted to know how to make the table that the band pages have. (The one with the picture if the band, the band symbol, and info).

Blast Off Bassist (talk) 03:39, 6 January 2008 (UTC)


 * You can use Infobox musical artist. Please make sure the band satisfies WP:MUSIC, and include references from reliable sources to demonstrate it. If you want to see what an existing article did then click "edit this page" at top to see the source. PrimeHunter (talk) 04:03, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Forgot Password
I have forgotten my password. I am SMP0328. You can E-mail me at (addresses removed for protection). Please help. --72.89.243.161 (talk) 03:41, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry but User:SMP0328 has not attached an email address to the account, so if you don't remember the password then you have to create a new account (see Help:Logging in). Posting your email address here does not help. You can link the two accounts together on their user pages. PrimeHunter (talk) 04:00, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
 * OK, I've created a new account. I've included my E-mail address for that account.  How do I link the two accounts?--SMP0328. (talk) 04:26, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
 * You can put a note on your user page saying "I used to edit as User:SMP0328. Confusing Manifestation (Say hi!) 09:29, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
 * First, thank you to whoever removed my E-mail addresses. Second, thank you to Confusing Manifestation for your assistance. --SMP0328. (talk) 03:46, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Userpage
I have created an userbox on anarcho-primitivism. But during the process of creating userbox, I have mistakenly created two pages namely User:Otolemur crassicaudatus/Userbox/Anarcho-primitivism and User:Otolemur crassicaudatus/Userboxes/Anarcho-primitivism. Actually I see that every user who has created some userbox have their own subpage User:X/Userboxes. I want my subpage will remain in plural form, i.e. Userboxes, not Userbox. So I want to save the page User:Otolemur crassicaudatus/Userboxes/Anarcho-primitivism and delete User:Otolemur crassicaudatus/Userbox/Anarcho-primitivism. Also I want to rename the page User:Otolemur crassicaudatus/Userbox into User:Otolemur crassicaudatus/Userboxes. What should I do? Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 05:48, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
 * The problem is now solved. They are speedily deleted. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 06:47, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Thomas Pestrov
wtf guys why would you put something like that. to try to get it deleted because it has no proof on the internet or it wasnt shown in record books. As ive told you I have proof and its been in my family for generations. He deserves to be on here if you want proof type in Joel Roberts on google that is his son and there is proof enough. I hate how you guys say something has to be deleted as soon as it is posted and it makes me and millions of others dislike your so called free encyclopedia, i mean if it was so free then you would allow to have people put down facts they know is a fact and their family has known is a fact. And even so saying it dosnt have proof of existence is like saying you dont have proof of Gods existence and a lot of people believe in him and you allow it on your website like when i type in god its on there. But thats not what bugs me its your too lazy to get off your ass and look up crap, so if its something you dont recognize as a fact then you simply delete it, and i demand you send me a message reply to this for this is an injustice towards my free writes of speech, even though the same rules do not apply on the internet as they do online I have a peice of history that is great in its own self and instead of not letting the whole world learn it you delete it. And one more thing my great great great grandfather died for freedom and he believed if you did something just right no one would know that you did but know that someone did something for them without expecting fame or fortune having that is what has brought my family to this time and this age of time. My family has been doing great things for centuries living off his belief and knowing that if we did the right thing was good and it didnt matter if anyone knew it was us, to have pride is to have greed and greed kills more men then the bubonic plague did. —Preceding unsigned comment added by TheStudy1 (talk • contribs) 10:40, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
 * You should probably read over WP:BIO to find out how to tell if someone is notable enough to be included in Wikipedia. After that, please read WP:RS to learn about reliable sources, which do not include stories passed down by family members.  And finally, please use better grammar.  Your final paragraph had 20 lines of text and only 7 periods.  The text was next to impossible to understand due to the poor grammar and punctuation.  If you need help with English grammar, then I suggest you ask another editor to help you with your entry before posting it on a live page.  A page such as User:TheStudy1/sandbox will do.  Dismas |(talk) 11:25, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
 * People don't "deserve" Wikipedia articles. You may have confused this site for some other type of site like a social networking site or a blog but Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, a tertiary source by definition, so the subjects making up our content must have already been published somewhere else in order to be included here. An encyclopedia should never announce new, unknown and unpublished things.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 14:33, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Who owns an X-ray or MRI image?
I recently had an MRI done and the doctor gave me a CD with the images from the MRI. I was thinking that they could be used here but I'm not sure about the legality of this. So, who owns those images? Me? My doctor? The hospital where the MRI scanner is? Thanks, Dismas |(talk) 11:27, 6 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Symbol move vote.svg Have you tried Wikipedia's Reference Desk? They specialize in knowledge questions and will try to answer just about any question in the universe (except how to use Wikipedia, since that is what this Help Desk is for). Just follow the link, select the relevant section, and ask away. I hope this helps.  The Helpful One (Talk)(Contributions) (Review Me!) 11:55, 6 January 2008 (UTC)


 * There's the Image copyright help desk which should be more useful than the Reference Desk for this question on using Wikipedia.--86.149.57.47 (talk) 12:07, 6 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Helpful One, that wasn't helpful. If you read my question again, the reason for my question was whether I could use the photos on Wikipedia.  86.149, thanks, I didn't know that desk existed.  I have posted to another copyright desk before and didn't get any response for the question I asked then, so I'd rather not go back there but I'll try this new desk...  How many help desks do we have anyway?  Dismas |(talk) 14:36, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
 * That link caught me by surprise too. Apparently it was created last week. So how many let's see, here, the new one, the reference desk with 7 separate desk sections, New contributors help desk, WP:VPA, WP:EA, helpme (sort of a virtual heldesk)... 13?--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 15:38, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Image copyright help desk also surprised me when we already have Media copyright questions, Wikipedia talk:Copyrights/Can I use..., Requested copyright examinations. Of course the number of help desks depends on what you call a help desk. Some other places you can ask questions: Reliable sources/Noticeboard, and WikiProject User Page Help/Help Desk for one actually called help desk. PrimeHunter (talk) 20:58, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Woody Allen's film: "Cassandra's Dreams"
Someone on Wikipedia wrote about Woody Allen's new film and tells exactly what happens to the characters in the film - giving away important plot details - such as who gets killed in the film. This should not be allowed - it ruins the film for anyone who might want to see it. Would the reviewer have liked it if someone had told him or her who gets killed in the film, before the reviewer went in to see it?

This review should be removed. I'm going to avoid reading about specific movies on Wikipedia in the future. If it's a thriller, I'd like to be surprised when I see the film. Don't tell me who gets killed at the end of the film.

"Stupid" would be a good description of your reviewer, I think.

Happy New Year, by the way. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.164.108.24 (talk) 12:52, 6 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Happy New Year to you. I'd advise you to read through Wikipedia's guideline on spoilers, which states that articles will contain in depth plot details without warning. Also, remember that Wikipedia is not just written by one contributor (or reviewer), but that many people collaborate over it. &mdash; alex.muller (talkpage • contribs) 13:20, 6 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Also note that Wikipedia articles about movies are not suppossed to be in the form of a review. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and should give information about the article subject with a neutral point of view. If we write an encyclopedic article about a war then we don't stop in the middle without saying who won. The same basically goes for movies. PrimeHunter (talk) 20:23, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Obscenity
Why do I see a string of obscene words in Sandbox under "project page". There is also a derogatory comment under "discussion".

This rather puts me off pursuing my first attempt at editing - the article "Silver Line (Washington Metro)" which has an obvious major error, and is muddled on the history and controversy. Plus the there is nothing on the current status of this major delayed project.

ablackwood —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ablackwood (talk • contribs) 13:01, 6 January 2008 (UTC)


 * The thing to remember is that Wikipedia can be edited by absolutely anyone, and some of those people may be less well intentioned than you. You can remove the obscenity yourself, but take care to remember that Wikipedia is not censored. If you leave a link to where you found the obscenity (perhaps on my talk page) I'd be happy to have a look. And please do continue to edit the article you mentioned, because Wikipedia thrives on the contributions of its members. &mdash; alex.muller (talkpage • contribs) 13:11, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
 * The Sandbox is a place for test editing. You are liable to see all sorts of crap in there. If you are really offended, might I suggest creating a user subpage and tagging it with User Sandbox to make it your own private sandbox?  N F 24 (radio me!) 14:11, 6 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Please go ahead and correct any errors you see. If possible, include where you found the information, for example  (the &lt;ref&gt; and &lt;/ref&gt; put the text inside at the bottom of the page). --h2g2bob (talk) 15:31, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

judgement and foreclosure
can u refer the page on which correct defination of judgement and foreclosure is mentioned  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.210.56.31 (talk) 15:49, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
 * (added title) Try judgement and foreclosure on Wikipedia. Dictionary definitions are at judgement and foreclosure on our sister project, Wiktionary. --h2g2bob (talk) 16:03, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I suspect that your question may relate to a judgment of foreclosure. If this is the case and your real property is involved, I urge you to consult an attorney in your locality who specializes in real property litigation.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 16:14, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Liancourt Rocks needs someone to fix it
Someone deleted this article and replaced it with the text:

This article has been temporarily deleted due to rampant edit warring and disruption. It will be protected from recreation for a short while until administrators have determined how to proceed further.

With full protection. An administrator needs to fix this ASAP. The article has been around for a long time, and this just isn't how we do things. -Theanphibian (talk • contribs) 17:43, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Discussion over this article is taking place at Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 17:52, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Thank you. Sorry for the poor selection of places to post this.  It seems to be getting resolved currently. -Theanphibian (talk • contribs) 18:10, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Making a project banner case-insensitive
Is there a method for making a project banner using variables such as  to also accept inputs of   and   without having to copy the same code again? (as adding alternatives for each variable would triple the code of the template)

The current code is similar to this -

I guess what I really mean is - is there an OR function available for ? The main thinking behind the implementation of case-insensitive variables is to make it more user-friendly and catch all those articles that have been tagged using the wrong case.

(and yes I know it would have been more logical to have all variables as lower-case at the beginning, but the project is now in it's 3rd year and over 19,000 articles had been tagged, so retroactively changing all variables on all those talkpages to lowercase would be a big job) Nanonic (talk) 20:40, 6 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Here's an idea to try: Would it work to just nest the variables, like so: {{#if:{{{England|{{{england|{{{eng|}}}}}}}}}| ? • Anakin {{sup|(contribs • complaints)}} 21:49, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
 * That works brilliantly, thanks! Nanonic (talk) 23:26, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Portuguese Wedding
What paperwork is required for an english couple getting married in portugal? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.4.121.81 (talk) 22:14, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Note that Wikipedia does not give legal opinions. Have you tried the Humanities section of Wikipedia's Reference Desk? They specialize in answering knowledge questions there; this help desk is only for questions about using Wikipedia. For your convenience, here is the link to post a question there: click here. I hope this helps. PrimeHunter (talk) 22:25, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

starting a new entry on a living person
What steps do I need to use to start a new entry on a living person,(which is not me by the way)? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mp9779 (talk • contribs) 22:37, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Search first, then see Your first article for details on starting an article. The Biographies of living people policy is recommended reading - Wikipedia takes "BLP violations" (as they're called) very seriously. Also check out the notability guidelines for people as most people who do not meet this guideline will have their article deleted. Good luck! —Preceding unsigned comment added by NASCAR Fan24 (talk • contribs) 22:45, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Mirror Sites and User Pages
How do I remove my user page from mirror sites? 165.154.18.154 (talk) 22:37, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

I posted this question. Leamarie411x2 (talk) 22:40, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Mirrors are simply copies of Wikipedia; I think they can't be edited. Perhaps the most notable mirror is Answers.com, which disallows editing. You would have to remove your userpage here, and even then some mirrors are years out of date.  N F 24 (radio me!) 22:42, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Note that anything you post on your userpage is released under the GFDL, which allows verbatim copying, so you have little or no legal recourse against mirrors. Algebraist 23:39, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

See my User page at User:Corvus cornix. The yellow box is somewhat of a disclaimer, letting people who encounter your User page on a mirror site know that you are not associated with that site. Corvus cornix talk  23:55, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

An area where we can vote on stub articles to be expanded
Hi. I just started an article on Wikipedia vandalism in my userspace (see User:Urban Rose/Wikipedia vandalism) and remember there being a place where I can go to propose that editors select it as a stub article to be expanded (I believe it was called "article improvement drive" or something like that). Could someone please show me where to find the page I'm talking about. I already left a notice about the new article on the community portal but I'm not sure if that's the best place for it.-- Urban  Rose  22:45, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Looks like you'll have to go it alone: the Article Collaboration & Improvement Drive gets articles to FA-status and I can't find another similar project. Good luck!  N F 24 (radio me!) 22:49, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia ISBN
Hi, I am currently doing an assessment and have used the Article on your website (1931 Hawkes Bay earthquake) I am needing to know the reference number or ISBN for Wikipedia in general or that particular article.

Could you please email me  and let me know.

Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.150.115.117 (talk) 23:21, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm afraid we don't answer questions by e-mail. Wikipedia does not have an ISBN, as it is not a book. For information on citing Wikipedia, go to the article in question and click the 'Cite this page' link at the bottom of the left sidebar. 172.202.11.50 (talk) 23:32, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

How to cite from personal knowledge
Hi I edited a page about Martin Keown where I said he was of Irish Ancestory. I see a citation is needed. I can understand that but my evidence is that I actually know his mother and family personally from the village! How does one cite that?

Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.110.52.139 (talk) 23:43, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, you can't because it is in violation of the original research policy.  N F 24 (radio me!) 23:45, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I recommend trying to figure out where you learned it from, if possible. Trevor   "Tinkleheimer"   Haworth  23:48, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
 * (edit conflict) One doesn't cite or use personal knowledge. It is against Verifiability. Only add information from published reliable sources. If you cannot find a published source for your own addition to a biography of a living person after it has been tagged for citation then I suggest to remove the information before somebody else does. PrimeHunter (talk) 23:55, 6 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Isn't Keown an Irish name? It's obviously true, must it be cited explicitly? • Anakin (contribs • complaints) 00:11, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, certainly when it has been tagged for citation in a WP:BLP. Besides, I guess it was this more specific edit which is currently tagged. PrimeHunter (talk) 00:22, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

I find it frustrating that it isn't considered acceptable to reference personal knowledge. As an officer in the US Navy, I stood the last watch on the USS Tacoma. There is no way to capture such information to use it validate what has been written in the entry. It is too bad that there is no way reference historical memories from contributors.Aggie80 11:29, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Help about an article
Hi friends,

I have created a wikipedia article for Usha a famous and renowned singer from south India. The article is present at the following link -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singer_usha. I have listed all her accomplishments, awards and felicitations including few external links as an evidence to her achievements.

I referred to the Wikipedia:Notability (music) and found that she meets most of the criteria mentioned for singers and musicians in terms of awards, recognition and media presence. I have the following questions:

1. what are the next steps in adding her name to "disambiguation" page and 2. what is the mode of saving the above article on a permanent basis to wikipedia ?

Your help is appreciated.

Thanks

Devarakonda (talk) 23:53, 6 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Hi, the disambiguation page to add it to would be Usha. I was going to add your article to it just now, but then I noticed that it had been moved by somebody from Singer usha (where you created it) to Usha (singer). When I checked her website I noticed she calls herself "Singer Usha". So, I have a question, is "Singer Usha" actually her usual name? If so, the page should be moved back to "Singer Usha" first, and then the disambiguation page should point to that.
 * As for your second question, the article is already saved permanently and is already available to everyone if you search for it. The only thing you might want to do is categorize the article. For example, adding it to Category:Telugu playback singers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Anakin101 (talk • contribs) 00:09, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I have added Usha (singer) to the disambiguation page Usha. - PrimeHunter (talk) 00:15, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Anakin, Face and Prime Hunter for your help. I am totally new to creating the article and really thank you for your help.

>>>Anakin noticed that Usha's website calls her "Singer Usha". If this is her usual name, then maybe the page should be retitled to that. I do not believe that this is really how she wants to be called however...

In Tollywood, Usha is famous and renowned as "Singer Usha"- thats how most people know her. It is absolutely OK to be referred to Singer Usha on wikipedia. When I originally created the article, it got saved as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singer_usha... notice the small-case "u" in usha...

I will appreciate any help you guys can provide to me in renaming the page to Singer Usha

Devarakonda (talk) 15:12, 7 January 2008 (UTC)


 * User:Anakin101 has renamed it to Singer Usha. PrimeHunter (talk) 01:24, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

wikipedia stuck in "print mode"
I don't know how but right now, all of wikipedia is stuck in a very basic styling, almost very similar to print mode. For example, the side bar with the navigation and search box is not there, it's in a list at the end of the page. Basically, the boxes that kept the entry in one part and the tools in another section are gone. How do I get this back?

I know it's an issue with only my browser because if I open this in internet explorer or another computer, the problem is no longer there. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zhaos (talk • contribs) 23:55, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Is there something reading  in the URL? If so, remove it and report back here. Also check your preferences' Skin tab to see which skin you have activated.  N F 24 (radio me!) 23:58, 6 January 2008 (UTC)


 * It sounds like you have changed skin for your account at Special:Preferences. Maybe you didn't log in to your account when it looked normal in another browser or computer. PrimeHunter (talk) 00:05, 7 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I have fixed the issue. I cleared my browser cache completely and then refreshed.  I have no idea what I clicked to get it into that mode.  there was no printmode url in the url bar but there are no more problems, it's back to normal Zhaos (talk) 00:37, 7 January 2008 (UTC)