Wikipedia:Help desk/Archives/2008 July 11

= July 11 =

Mac Wiki Software
Is there anything like AutoWikiBrowser that works in Mac OS X? I haven't seen anything that breaks the various tools down by OS, so I'm guessing it's a "no". Dismas |(talk) 00:27, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't know. Where have you searched? You have probably seen WP:EIW, Tools, Browser notes, and Tools/Browser tools. That's where I would start. You could also try searching some of the Wikipedia namespaces where people might have mentioned such a thing. If you like to search with Google (and who wouldn't), see Help desk searches or Google custom. You might find something in the User:, Wikipedia:, and Wikipedia talk: namespaces. More specifically, you could search the AutoWikiBrowser talk archive with Google custom:
 * That finds several instances of your question from other people. Maybe some of the answers are informative (I have not read them). --Teratornis (talk) 04:35, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * That finds several instances of your question from other people. Maybe some of the answers are informative (I have not read them). --Teratornis (talk) 04:35, 11 July 2008 (UTC)


 * No, but you can use tools like Twinkle and Huggle in Safari and Firefox for Mac. Confusing Manifestation (Say hi!) 04:42, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Twinkle works great for me... I run Safari (browser). Scottydude talk 23:12, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Page location
Can someone tell me where one can edit the text of the unauthorized page that not yet autoconfirmed editors reach when they attempt an action they cannot do, such as uploading a file? Somewhere in the Mediawiki space maybe?--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 01:45, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * It should be one listed at Special:AllMessages. -- —  —  Gadget850 (Ed)  talk  -  02:31, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * MediaWiki:Badaccess, MediaWiki:Badaccess-group1, MediaWiki:Badaccess-group2, MediaWiki:Badaccess-groups. Those would be my guesses.  « Gonzo fan2007 (talk ♦ contribs) @  '' 02:44, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Thank you. It's definitely one of those. Figuring out which is used on the upload file screen is going to take some digging.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 03:55, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Um Style...
Can anyone tell me why all the non mainspace pages just went blue? Adam McCormick (talk) 02:08, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I remember seeing somewhere (I'll look for it) that it so people realize that it isn't mainspace and isn't part of the "real" encyclopedia. IMO it is too subtle and wasn't announced wide enough to be effective, but whatever. Paragon12321 (talk) 02:21, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Weren't they already blue? Olaf Davis | Talk 10:42, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Always since July 2004: . Algebraist 10:56, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I guess I just couldn't see it til now. Thanks anyway. Adam McCormick (talk) 23:09, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Is there a way to omit a particular bot's edits from your watchlist?
is doing its work on the de-linking of dates. Controversy over the edits notwithstanding because that's not my issue but rather I want to have bot edits show because some are relevant but I don't need to see these edits on what seems like every article on my watchlist. I don't think there is a way for one editor's (bot or not) changes not to show, but I figured I'd ask. Thanks! TravellingCarithe Busy Bee 02:30, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Sort of: you can hid bot edits in your watchlist, however it may not act as you expect. If an article was last edited by a bot it simply will not show up on your watchlist; it will not show the prior "non-bot" edit. It is also an "all or nothing" setting, affecting all watched articles, and all registered bots. Tiggerjay (talk) 07:48, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * That's what I was afraid of, thanks! TravellingCarithe Busy Bee 12:52, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Am I qualified for Autoconfirmed status?
Hi. I registered on this week's Monday afternoon and 'my preferences' page denotes that I have 20+ edits. The rule says that usually one will be Autoconfirmed once a user is registered more than 4 days and has more than 10 edits. I would like to use the upload function. Could someone check my status (I checked last time and I was not Autoconfirmed) and tell me how I can reach Autoconfirmed status please? Any help is appreciated! Ben K rox!! (talk) 02:47, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Log shows the account being registered at 05:13, 7 July 2008. Looks like you've got about 2 1/2 more hours before you'll hit 4 days. --Onorem ♠ Dil 02:54, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * All right, you should be all set now. Tiggerjay (talk) 08:32, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Primary Historical Documents and offline, published sources
I have several new wikis that I would like to write. I have also read all the applicable help pages but have not really found any concrete answers. The problem is a lot of the information I have gathered is from old bulletins, magazines, journals, (most of which are not on the internet) and a significant amount of primary historical documents (i.e. correspondence, meeting minutes, agendas, constitutions, etc.). Now, I know how to treat primary sources on wikipedia, that is, I can only use primary sources as sources of fact and am not allowed to interpret the primary source, and that's fine with me.

I have two questions:

1.)Can I cite off-line secondary sources, such as a phd thesis, magazine, journal, etc? Or do they have to be made available online somehow?

2.)What about primary historical documents? (letters, meeting minutes, briefs--stuff that you would find in a national archive or university library). Do they have to be scanned and uploaded first or can they just be properly cited, like in a magazine or peer-reviewed academic journal?Nocandu1976 (talk) 03:14, 11 July 2008 (UTC)


 * In response to #1, YES! Secondary sources of any sort that are considered reliable are able to be used (as per WP:V), see Category:Citation templates, specifically those that are named as . In answer to ur second question, you can sort historical documents like any other. -ΖαππερΝαππερ BabelAlexandria 03:25, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * You seem to be using the word "wiki" to mean what we call an article. A wiki is a Web site that its users can edit, using (minimally) a Web browser. For example, the English Wikipedia is a wiki (a very large one). --Teratornis (talk) 04:38, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Picture Vandalism?
Someone added this of xkcd author Randall Monroe. It says it's been digitally modified by being "recropped." If you look at the you'll notice the new version also has a digitally added mustache. I've undone the article changes to link to the modified picture, but I don't know what to do with the edited picture. Is it allowed to stay? Should it be deleted (IMHO, I think so, but I don't know WP's policies that apply here)? D a R kA g E 7 [Talk] 03:26, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Turns out the person behind it has already been warned for previous vandalism of other images on their talk page. Should they be blocked? D a R kA g E 7  [Talk] 03:31, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * The image has been tagged CSD, and the editor appears to have switched from vandal to anti-vandal after his final warning at 3:31, 11 July. Tiggerjay (talk) 07:43, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

catwatch.js
I was recently directed to by another user, however I am not sure how, or indeed where I should enter the js code. Thanks Flaming Ferrari (talk) 03:39, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * You would add the code to your monobook.js which is at User:Flaming Ferrari/monobook.js. Note that I have this script and it used to work but no longer does for me. This is quite possibly a result of other changes I've played with and not a problem in the script itself but I thought I'd mention it.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 04:03, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Doesn't seem to be working for me either... Flaming Ferrari (talk) 04:51, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Other statistics
I know that produces, and July produces July

My question is... is there any other statistics besides this that I can use? (like number of edits, visits, etc.)

--Xizes(talk) 03:11, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * There's tons... Help:Magic words. Scottydude talk 03:47, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Just realize that there is no number of "visits" static available in variable form on wikipedia. :) Tiggerjay (talk) 07:32, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * That statistic can be found with this wonderful tool.  « Gonzo fan2007 (talk ♦ contribs) @  '' 07:40, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Docking Stations
what does a docking station consist of... may i have pictures to help me out... as i need to order some in india... Thank you Andrene T. McLuskie Kereos India — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.221.75.92 (talk) 06:44, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Please submit your question over at the Reference Desk where they can assist you further. The helpdesk is for wikipedia related assistance. Tiggerjay (talk) 07:31, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Template
Hello, I would like the green colour and "3" at List of Heroes episodes to span two rows, instead of inputting it twice. Thanks, –  thedemonhog   talk •  edits  07:06, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * How about this?  « Gonzo fan2007 (talk ♦ contribs) @  '' 07:11, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Need help with wikilink problems
Just wondering whether anybody can help me with the wikilinking in relation to this article, specifically the date of birth as it can be seen the 25 is in the wrong place as well as the brackets yet i tried to edit the page and i cant see how it can be fixed. There are also a couple of other article in relation to this topic that have this same problem, any help would be appreciated. Thanks Monster Under Your Bed  (talk) 11:10, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * What's wrong with it at present? If it's not displaying as November 25, 1946, then you've set it to display differently in your preferences. Algebraist 11:23, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Nothing to do with the date format, just the 25 was outside the brackets and it looked mumbled up, i have just hopped onto a laptop and now it appears fine. Must be my computer. Thanks anyway Monster Under Your Bed  (talk) 11:36, 11 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Ah- the right to left text is breaking the formatted date. There is a way to fix this... -- —  —  Gadget850 (Ed)  talk  -  11:41, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Its actually my darn browser on that particular computer thats causing the fuss, comes up fine in IE. In Firefox it appears as Allama Arif Hussain Al Hussaini (Urdu:علامه عارف حسين الحسينى شهيد) (25 November 1946 - 5 August 1988) instead of the right way. Monster Under Your Bed  (talk) 11:47, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * My IE (7.0.5730.13) kills it as well, actually. It's still a browser problem, though: it's fine in the HTML. Algebraist 11:52, 11 July 2008 (UTC)


 * It may be browser dependent, FF3 shows this as mangled:
 * (Urdu:علامه عارف حسين الحسينى شهيد) November 25, 1946
 * (Urdu:علامه عارف حسين الحسينى شهيد) November 25, 1946
 * The Arabic text is right-to-left and I'm sure this is what is breaking it- the date format properly if you remove the Arabic. There is a way to fix it, but I'm darned if I can remember. -- —  —  Gadget850 (Ed)  talk  -  11:53, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * FF3 is happy if you have date preferences set to November 25, 1946. Algebraist 11:55, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Flailing blindly in the dark and adding the first character listed at Unicode control characters has solved it, for me at least. Algebraist 12:05, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Snap! That was what I was looking for. Wrapping the date in fixes it as well. There is an Urdu template ur, but wrapping the Arabic text in that did not fix it. Perhaps that text control character should be added to close out ur.-- —  —   Gadget850 (Ed)  talk  -  12:09, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks everyone for your help. Problem solved:) Monster Under Your Bed  (talk) 14:36, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Question about article title formatting
McFly's new album is titled as "Radio:ACTIVE". What should the title of the article be? At the moment it's Radioactive (McFly album), but if Go:Audio is allowed, is Radio:Active? I'm asking this because others keep changing the title as no one knows what it should be. -- Stacey talk to me 11:43, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * If Radio:ACTIVE is the proper name of the album, then it should be the article title. There's no technical reason against it, if that's what you're asking. Algebraist 12:00, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * This page says "Use standard English for titles even if trademarks encourage otherwise". It seems to suggest that it should be "Radio:Active", which is at least better than "Radioactive". -- Stacey talk to me 12:28, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * The only time you have to be careful with colons in a title is if the text before the colon matches a Wikipedia namespace, such as "Talk" or "Image".  However, "Radio" is not a namespace, so this should not pose an issue at all. <font style="font-variant: small-caps;">-- ShinmaWa(talk) 22:15, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Image problem
When I try to put a resized version of File:Đurmanec.jpg (doesn't matter if it's thumb or not) in the European route E59 article, I get a blank image white a red X, just like a browser getting a 404 error. Is it a bug? Admiral Norton (talk) 12:37, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm not seeing any problems. What's your browser+skin? Algebraist 12:45, 11 July 2008 (UTC)


 * (ec) The image is appearing correctly for me. It might have been a temporary hiccup. Have you tried refreshing your local internet browser's cache (see Bypass your cache for instructions; if you edit with Internet Explorer go back to the article and hit Ctrl-F5.) TenOfAllTrades(talk) 12:49, 11 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I use IE 6.0. It seems it was some temporary error. The image displays just fine now. Thanks for your help. Admiral Norton (talk) 14:15, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Adding Flash Mp3 Player to Wiki
I created a template which will open a swf mp3 player in wiki. But I can't add tags to wiki. I used  tag but didn't work. Is there any chance to embed a swf to a page? Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.101.30.0 (talk) 13:11, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * No. Algebraist 13:14, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Article request
Hello, I have an article request for assistance to write an article about Wild Wonders of Europe. The request is listed in the Requested Articles section, but doesn't seem to get any response. How can I reach editors and writers without my request "disappearing" among all requests listed? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requested_articles/Culture_and_fine_arts#Networks_and_Organizations

Thanks! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.152.54.151 (talk) 14:26, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * There is no trick to it. One thing you could do is write the article and submit it to WP:AFC. <font STYLE="verdana" COLOR ="#990000">Gtstricky Talk or C 16:45, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Title capitalisation: move help needed
I tried to move the Christopher Poole article to moot (4chan) but it moved to Moot (4chan) instead. I thought that the technical restriction problem had been fixed, given that iPod is no longer at IPod. Can anyone help me out? Skomorokh 14:31, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * All you need to do is put lowercase at the top of your article. This will turn "Moot" to "moot". <font style="font-variant: small-caps;">-- ShinmaWa(talk) 15:33, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Splendid. Thanks, Skomorokh  16:07, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Another archive issue
I have tried archive.org and a cache:http://www.citizensforpreckwinkle.org/bio.htm google search. How can I find an arcive of http://www.citizensforpreckwinkle.org/bio.htm?--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 14:41, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * This help desk is for help using Wikipedia. Ask over at the reference desk. <font STYLE="verdana" COLOR ="#990000">Gtstricky Talk or C 16:41, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I guess it is about the use of the now dead http://www.citizensforpreckwinkle.org/bio.htm as reference in Toni Preckwinkle which is currently a good article nominee, so it is Wikipedia related. archive.org and Google cache would also be my first tries. I haven't found anything - except that the url has previosly been linked internally from citizensforpreckwinkle.org. PrimeHunter (talk) 18:14, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for taking a look. There is a second biography that is giving us trouble. The infobox has a link to the webpage for her ward. There you will find a biography page which I use as reference [1]. There is something about the URL that makes it temporary. I do not know enough about the language of URLs to know how to adjust the URL to make it permanent and linkable from the notes section of the article. Any advice?--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 14:08, 12 July 2008 (UTC)


 * It looks like fixed it. The url contained two wrong '-' characters. My guess: An external editor was used at some time and it added hyphens in the long url where the line wrapped. PrimeHunter (talk) 16:04, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 07:25, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Wikiproject for watching featured content
I thought there was some co-ordinated group of editors such as a WikiProject which watched featured articles and lists to guard against deterioration, but I haven't been able to find it. Am I imagining it? Skomorokh 15:19, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Good question. If no one here chimes in with an answer ask on the project talk page: Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates.<font STYLE="verdana" COLOR ="#990000">Gtstricky Talk or C 16:40, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Actually, a better place to look would be Featured Article Review. <font style="font-variant: small-caps;">-- ShinmaWa(talk) 21:37, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Linking Images
How do I link an image to a specific page, so when you click on the image you go direct to the page? If someone deletes this because I'm in the wrong place without even having the sense to tell me what to do, I will be on your talkpage with an annoying complaint->:)-- Editor510 <font color="#4CBB17"> drop us a line, mate  18:22, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

PS

Don't give me antisocial blah. Can't you take a joke?!


 * Do you mean an image map? –  ukexpat (talk) 19:01, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Kinda, I want the whole pic to link to one page, not split up different bits.-- Editor510 <font color="#4CBB17"> drop us a line, mate  18:53, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Which page, the image page here on WP? I don't think a link to anywhere else would be appropriate. Please explain a little more. – ukexpat (talk) 18:15, 16 July 2008 (UTC)


 * This should be what you're after: . Change the image to an image either on WP or commons, link to the page on WP you want to link to and Title to what you want displayed when you hover over the image, as so. Nuvola_apps_chat.png

The factual quality of Wikipedia
Wikipedia,

My name is Brandon. I am very interested in using Wikipedia as a good study source that will help me to learn more about a broad range of educational, scientific, and other serious topics. However, I have just now learned that some consider Wikipedia to be questionable because of its articles' ability to become edited by people who visit the site.

The topics I plan to study are very important to me and I need to make sure that they are completely true. So because of Wikipedia’s easy ability to become edited, I need to know what the details are on the information presented here. Is everything about every topic posted here on Wikipedia completely true at all times? If it isn't, then how can I be sure that what I am reading is true as I would need it to be?

Do the people who run Wikipedia ensure that it remains the way it should be, completely true. And if so, how often do they protect the information here from getting robbed of its truthfulness.

So, in general, what are all the details of people editing the articles with incorrect information and what are all the details of the actions that the people who run Wikipedia make to ensure that its articles are true.

Also, does wikipedia.com have a customer service phone number?

Sephiroth40 (talk) 19:32, 11 July 2008 (UTC) Brandon


 * Hello Brandon. I know what you mean.. all of my professors are vehemently anti-Wikipedia too. I believe that most of the editors here are trying to get accurate information to as many people as possible, that false information gets reverted/changed (sometimes it takes a while, that's all) and you should take everything you read with a grain of salt.. even the stuff in big musty books on creaky wooden shelves in dark dank libraries. So far as things getting robbed of [their] truthfulness goes.. we invest things with truth, they haven't got it to begin with. So don't worry about it {:
 * That's my 2c. Kalindoscopy: un enfant espiègle (talk) 19:39, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Brandon, the short answer is that if you are using Wikipedia for serious research, you should not trust it (or any encyclopaedia) for a minute. Wikipedia's use in research is that its quality articles can point you to reliable sources on the topic. Quality articles will have a lot of references, and specific claims will be supported by citations with numbers, like this. You can find these by visiting the "References" or "Footnotes" section of a given article. Best of luck, Skomorokh  19:46, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia makes no guarantee of validity. This doesn't mean that Wikipedia isn't accurate - it's just not accurate all of the time. We have vandals - they're scoundrels who take pleasure in ruining our hard work. Vandals make Wikipedia inaccurate. Wikipedia users attempt to patrol all changes to the encyclopaedia, but they are human and can't catch all the vandalism. Also, we have users who think they can add their opinion or anything else they would like, regardless if it is factual or not. The only way to insure the information you are getting is completely truthful is to compare the Wikipedia entry with that of another encyclopaedia.


 * As Wikimedia (the non-profit that runs Wikipedia) is not a business, they do not provide customer service, because as they are not a business they don't have any customers. You can ask any other questions you have about Wikipedia here, as that is what this page is for. Xenon54 19:48, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

gadges
Do wp:gadgets not work until a user is autocomfirmed? I've selected every gadget in my preferences and none of them work. I've cleared my cache and purged the page a dozen times; nothing. I even made a test edit to my talk page in case gadgets don't work unless you have at least one edit. What gives? — Preceding unsigned comment added by MHTML (talk • contribs) 19:43, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Most of the gadgets should work w/out being autoconfirmed, but they all require JavaScript. You sure you haven't disabled JavaScript? Calvin 1998 (t-c) 19:56, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * After a quick test, I can confirm that the nav popups gadget quite definitely works for non-autoconfirmed users. I believe all are except Twinkle. Algebraist 20:10, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, only Twinkle doesn't work for non-autoconfirmed users. The only logical answer would be that your JavaScript is disabled somehow. Calvin 1998 (t-c) 20:21, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * No, most of the gadgets don't work until you're autoconfirmed. It's not just Twinkle, the clock gadget didn't work either until my autoconfirm period was up. I posted about this on the Village Pump a while back. &mdash;  The Hand That Feeds You :Bite 11:07, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Tallest Lighted Living Christmas Tree
I was wondering if you guys could put this on your site it is very important!

http://www.christmas-treasures.com/AboutUs/ChristmasTree/TallestLightedChristmasTree.htm

Thanks Mark
 * Unless you can demonstrate notability, then no. Xenon54 21:35, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Article on Lebanon elections
is there an article on newly formed government of Lebanon. If not, what should it be called. Thanks, Anonymous101 (talk) 20:38, 11 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm honestly surprised that there is very little in Wikipedia regarding the new unity government of Lebanon. However, I'm guessing that the best place for this information to be placed would be in Politics of Lebanon, which discusses the Lebanese government structures.   <font style="font-variant: small-caps;">-- ShinmaWa(talk) 21:31, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * There is an article at Lebanon forms unity government with Hezbollah-led opposition —teb728 t c 22:41, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I know there is a Wikinews article. Seeing the Wikinews article is what made me want to write an article on it here. Anonymous101 (talk) 05:29, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure this really needs to be a separate article. It really is best as a part of Politics of Lebanon. &mdash;  The Hand That Feeds You :Bite 16:34, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

How to create an alternative definition?
I am interested in creating an alternative definition for the word "Drumlin". This definition is not at all related to the previous definition of "Drumlin". I am wondering what I should do in this situation? —Preceding unsigned comment added by AnyaGilbert (talk • contribs) 22:55, 11 July 2008 (UTC)


 * By utilizing disambiguation. For the short explanation, you create an article titled Drumlin (something) where the something is what makes it different from the existing article on Drumlin. For example, if Drumlin were the name of an actor, you would create the article Drumlin (actor). Or if Drumlin were the name of a city in Florida, you'd title it Drumlin, Florida. After creating your new article, you place the text: at the top of the Drumlin article. For example, if it were a city in Florida, it would be:  If you read through the page on disambiguation, the first link I gave you, you'll see there is also some stuff about moving the original article and creating a disambiguation page. But this should not be done in this case since a very large number of links already exist to Drumlin and would have to be fixed if that article were moved. You should also read Wikipedia:Your first article to make sure it is appropriate to create an article on this alternative definition of Drumlin. Someguy1221 (talk) 23:10, 11 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I made a search and guess this is about the band Drumlin which has a member called Anya Gilbert. Please see Conflict of interest and Notability (music). Making an article about your own band is strongly discouraged and such articles are often deleted. PrimeHunter (talk) 23:21, 11 July 2008 (UTC)