Wikipedia:Help desk/Archives/2009 April 22

= April 22 =

History of romantic lyrics
Where can I find information on the History of romantic lyrics? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.247.19.29 (talk) 00:49, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
 * You might find what you are looking for in the article about Love song. If you cannot find the answer there, you can try asking your question at Wikipedia's Reference Desk. They specialize in knowledge questions and will try to answer just about any question in the universe (except about how to use Wikipedia, which is what this help desk is for). I hope this helps. Algebraist 00:52, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Plus signs on my watchlist?
Im confused what it means when these plus signs (+2), (+21) appear next to articles I am watching. Are they views or something else? This one entry in my watchlist looks like:


 * (diff)(hist)..here is my article;time..(+21)...username(talk|contribs)(i comment on what i did) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Chorrol07 (talk • contribs) 02:09, 22 April 2009 (UTC)


 * It's the number of bytes added or deleted by the latest edit. Someguy1221 (talk) 02:10, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
 * It tells you how many characters were added to/removed from the article in question. Useful to know if someone just blanked the page or whatever. --erachima talk 02:11, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
 * (ec) I believe that is an indication of how much the article has changed. +2 would mean that someone added two letters or bytes to the article. — Ched : ?  02:12, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
 * See Help:Watching pages, Help:User contributions, and Help:Page history for answers to this question, and to other questions one might not know to ask. --Teratornis (talk) 02:56, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Subtracting columns in a table
At User:TomasBat/Four Award/Records, I would like to create a column for how long it takes an article to go from creation to FA. Is there a way to subtract one column from another?--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 03:02, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Do you mean you want to do date arithmetic on pairs of table cells? If so, then you need the functionality of a spreadsheet. I don't know how to do that purely in wikitext. You might be able to write a bot program that would do the date arithmetic and update the table automatically. But that would probably be a lot of work. I Googled a bit and found this:
 * Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Microformats
 * They seem to be talking about date arithmetic. Maybe you can do something like this with microformats (I have no idea). --Teratornis (talk) 03:42, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Inline citations advice
I've been creating articles for Tennis players, mainly based on the databases of WTA and ITF. These are script-based databases: one interrogates them, and is shown results. They don't produce URLs that one can use to show this or that piece of information. So, although all of the information is in those databases, inline citations cannot be created for specific pieces of information. I have been placing the links to the WTA/ITF player pages in External links, and leaving it at that. Anyone who wants to check the information will have to press the appropriate buttons at the WTA or ITF sites.

Recently, one of these was hit with a No footnotes tag. On one hand, I can't deny that the warning is literally true, but on the other hand, there's nothing that can be done about it when the sources are in this form.

I am not here for arbitration, I just want advice. Am I justified in removing the tag? Is there another tag that would be more appropriate? Any comments would be welcome.Ordinary Person (talk) 03:22, 22 April 2009 (UTC)


 * without knowing exactly which articles and corresponding refs you're referring to, I'll only offer a suggestion. I would probably try to put the search string in one of the fields of the cite if I could.  Explain what the circumstances are on the talk page.  Then remove the tag with an edit summary that explains the reasoning behind the whole thing - and a pointer to your talk page explanations.  I'd probably then gradually work on finding references on a static page that does verify what you're saying, and replace the script run results pages.  Perhaps someone else will have a better solution, OR - you could have a chat with the folks at Reliable sources/Noticeboard.  They would probably have a better handle on that kind of situation. — Ched :  ?  04:04, 22 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks for those tips. Ordinary Person (talk) 04:09, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I turned your No footnotes template into not-a-transclusion, to stop the template from side-effectively categorizing the Help desk into a maintenance category. It's usually better to refer to a template via the Tl template, to avoid triggering side effects of the template that we might not want on the Help desk. --Teratornis (talk) 06:23, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Template collapse variable help
I want to edit a template (Template:Protestant missions to China) to add a "State" variable to the user variables when it is transcluded. This would allow editors to select state= to collapse the box when writing a page, so they can collapse the box if it would otherwise overpower a page (like it does on William Campbell (missionary)). I've been looking for a while, but haven't found out how this is done. Many thanks in advance for any help given. Taffy (talk) 03:53, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
 * You can see how I did it in peak oil and Template:Peak oil/doc. If that's not clear enough, I'll isolate the diffs for you. --Teratornis (talk) 06:25, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Oops, I lied. Another user made the template collapsible, and I moved the collapsible option template to the documentation subpage. I misremembered because after I saw this technique, I applied it to several other navigation templates. --Teratornis (talk) 06:30, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the help, but I want to insert the relevant syntax in a box which is not based on on the navbox template (which the peak oil template is based on). I've tried grabbing code direct from the navbox template, but I can't make it work.Taffy (talk) 06:27, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I can think of a few options:
 * Make another version of the template that uses the navbox style. In my opinion, Protestant missions to China is too tall to be an infobox. A collapsible option doesn't make sense on an infobox anyway, because an infobox should be short enough to always appear, and there should only be one infobox per article. Navboxes are better for extensive collections of links, because there's plenty of room at the bottom of an article, and navboxes efficiently stack to fill space. I don't really like infoboxes for navigation links anyway, I think infoboxes should be for quick facts about the subject of a particular article. Navigation links belong at the bottom, where we have the standard links sections "See also", "References", and "External links". Good luck with trying to convince the people who created Protestant missions to China of this.
 * If you want to keep the infobox style, search the Template: namespace for a base template analogous to the navbox template. Maybe someone has already solved the problem you are trying to solve.
 * Look at the history of navbox. See who appears to understand the template code. Ask them for advice.
 * Ask for help at WikiProject Infoboxes.
 * --Teratornis (talk) 16:58, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I should add that template coding on Wikipedia can be very difficult, not many Wikipedia editors know much about it, and everything you need to know may not always be in nice documents. To become good at template coding, you have to be resourceful and determined. You have to know how to go into a poorly defined, complex, and confusing situation, and make sense of it. You should make user subpages where you can practice your template editing. For each template you edit in more than a trivial way, you need a user subpage to hold your test copy of the template, and another user subpage where you transclude your test copy of the template, to see how it works. Read everything under WP:EIW. When you try to do something to a template that you have never tried before, make the simplest possible test template that can display the behavior you want. Trying to add a tricky feature to a complex template can quickly get out of hand. First figure out how to do it on a very small template, to reduce the number of possible unwanted interactions with other template code. Once you get the small case to work, gradually add in chunks of the big template, making sure the template keeps working with each chunk. And above all, take detailed notes on other user subpages. When you are learning a complex new skill, you probably can't get away with just winging it. You must take a systematic approach and augment your limited short term memory by writing down everything you are doing and studying. --Teratornis (talk) 17:10, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
 * That's good advice. I previously created the (rather simple) navbox Dutch Formosa, so I'm happy working with that style. I can forsee howls of protest at replacing the Christian missions template, but I'll give it a shot. Thanks! Taffy (talk) 02:40, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Widescreen assistance needed
I am attempting to augment Woodlawn, Chicago with a streetmap like those I have created for its neighbors its neighbors Hyde Park, Chicago and Washington Park, Chicago (neighborhood). However, the widest screen resolutions for my two laptops are at 1680x1050 and 1600x1200. Thus, I need help creating maps for wide neighborhoods that would require an 1800 or so screen width to caption street name detail for the map. Thus, I need someone to go to the OpenStreetMap page for this neighborhood and create the file for me to add to the neighborhood. Is anyone able to access a computer with the ability to do 1800 plus screen width resolution and copy this .png file for me by hitting the export mode (tab) and also saving the permalink in the lower right after the export.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 04:02, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I would also like to redo Near North Side, Chicago's File:Near North Side.png, with one level higher zoom for streetmap detail, but am unsure what screen width would do the trick. It would likely be wider than 2000.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 04:10, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
 * You might be able to do this by installing a Virtual desktop manager, which can give you a scrollable display area that is larger than your physical display hardware can show all at once. --Teratornis (talk) 17:13, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I have a 2003 Dell Inspiron 8200 with Windows XP and a a 2007 Hewlett Packard Pavilion DV9000T with Windows Vista Home Premium. Isthere a virtual desktop manager for either of these systems that you might recommend?--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 14:11, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Purging the cache
When I purge the cache, does it update the page for every user to visit it after I purge, or is it only purged locally on my machine? ~  ωαdεstεr 16  «talkstalk» 06:01, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
 * WP:PURGE explains that the purge occurs on Wikipedia's servers, so everybody should see it whenever their browsers decide to reload the updated page from the servers. --Teratornis (talk) 06:19, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
 * TY. ~  ωαdεstεr 16  «talkstalk» 06:45, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Linking between different language Wikipedias.
I want to provide a link from an English language article (in this case, Twelfth Night) to its Turkish language counterpart (Onikinci Gece). How do I do this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by MeOrCezanne (talk • contribs) 06:17, 22 April 2009 (UTC)


 * See Help:Interwiki linking. In short, interwiki links take the basic form of :Article name. So for this it would be Onikinci Gece (oyun). Someguy1221 (talk) 06:22, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Still confused about Orphans
If the only links to a page are bibliographic notes (the article/person/subject is listed at the bottom of another article), is it an orphan? Doesn't the lonely article have to be actually mentioned in the main text of some other namespace article? Does checking the "links" box on the "what links here" show only the proper namespace links? Am I making sense? I see a lot of articles that have links - but only because someone has added their page/article/name to the "see also" or "references" section of some other article. They are not referenced within the article (in Britannica, it would have said see also or see for example, here, we just use brackets. If it's not in a bracket, does it count as a link?  Articles are often under several categories, but otherwise orphaned.  Help me understand orphanage.--Levalley (talk) 06:37, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
 * When you click on "what links here," you see links from all namespaces. You can then select a namespace from a pull-down and click again to see just links from the main ("article") namespace. the guideline for "orphan" status is to count all mainspace links except from disambiguations and from lists, so links from references and from "see also" do count. I personally agree with this for references: if someone wrote a book that is used a lot, it establishes notability for me. "See also" is more problematical: the original intent of the "see also" section was that itis a temporary holding area and that the article should be expanded to include text that links to the "see also" article. Much worse, in my opinion: links generated by transcluded templates count. This means that a template for a sports team with 30 members will generate 29 links one each of 30 pages, including a guy that played exactly one game and was never heard of again. -Arch dude (talk) 09:09, 22 April 2009 (UTC)


 * See also sections are basically a place to dump links that are related but couldn't be weaved into the article narrative. It doesn't make them less important, so yes, they do count. Whatlinkshere mentions links in all namespaces. - Mgm|(talk) 09:11, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Policy
Wikipedias policy NO personal research & respect Copyright of the producer of an image - fine - Is an image I produced myself considered personal research? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Euc (talk • contribs) 14:12, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
 * It would only be considered original research if you used to support a claim in an article. Otherwise, you should be OK. TN X Man  14:14, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
 * In general, by convention we consider a photograph to be "self-verifying" when somone else could (at least in theory) make an equivalent photograph. To be really rigorous about this, you should provide a reasonable amopunt of information about when and where the photograph was taken, e.g. the geocoordinates, date/time, and pointing angle direction. For other images you create (e.g., a graph or diagram) you must provide a reference to a reliable source for the data. In either case, provide the information in the description sectin of he image's page. Sometimes, you may need to cite the sources in the article itself. -Arch dude (talk) 19:52, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

List of most searched keywords within Wikipedia?
Is there a way to list keywords most searched in Wikipedia for a specified time (say, throughout the year 2008, for example)? Or maybe even, most "popular" Wikipedia topics for 2008? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.185.22.198 (talk) 15:30, 22 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Popular pages might be what you are looking for. -- Goodraise (talk) 15:43, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
 * You could also check out this, which shows which pages were the most popular in the last year.  tempo di valse  [☎]  15:47, 22 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Which, I would hazard a guess, reflects the most widely searched subjects on the internet: politics, sex, celebrities and TV shows. – ukexpat (talk) 17:09, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Problems with twinkle
Hi, I'm new to wikipedia, and have repeatedly tried to install twinkle. I have followed the insructions exactly, and have tried activating it both through my preferences and through my monobook.js file. I run the latest version of firefox. Can anyone help me? thanks, Fahrenheit 16:29, 22 April 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fahrenheit92 (talk • contribs)
 * Your account is not autoconfirmed right now, so Twinkle will not work (Its use has been intentionally restricted to autoconfirmed users to prevent intentional or unintentional misuse). Give it 6 more hours and you'll see all the extra tabs and rollback links. :) 59.95.109.219 (talk) 16:37, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Ah, ok, that would explain why it wouldn't work after about 50 attmepts :) Thank you! Fahrenheit 16:47, 22 April 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fahrenheit92 (talk • contribs)

How to contribute for an article
I m from chakesar (pakistan).i want to cuntribute for the article about my village.How can i do this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 119.152.247.236 (talk) 16:51, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Hi, please read some introductory pages about editing first, then head over to Chakesar to contribute to it. You can also create an account to keep all your contributions in one place.-59.95.109.219 (talk) 17:04, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Be aware that Wikipedia does not accept "original work", which means you should cite reliable sources to support any factual claims you make. Even if you know something to be true, you must present it so other readers can verify the sources of your claims. If you aren't sure how to edit something, you can suggest ideas to other editors on the Talk page of any article (for example, Talk:Chakesar). However, images are an exception to the no original research rule - Wikipedia wants your original photographs. If you have access to a digital camera, you can upload photographs of your village, preferably to Commons so all the Wikipedias can use them. If you speak languages other than English (which seems highly probable), you may also be interested in editing the Wikipedias in those languages. For example, see the Urdu Wikipedia. There is always a need for people who can translate articles between the various language Wikipedias. --Teratornis (talk) 18:18, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Reference desk "Choose a topic:" items dissapear in IE7
I often browse all of the Reference desks by starting with one, then hitting and clicking on a link under "Choose a topic" at the top right of the page to select another desk. I recently upgraded my browser from Internet Explorer 6 to IE7. Since upgrading, the list of desks is sometimes blank after reading three or four pages. In other words, I see the "Choose a topic:" header with a blank box underneath where the list of desks was previously. Has anyone else seen this problem and is there a fix? --Thomprod (talk) 22:28, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
 * This was reported previously at Village pump (technical)/Archive 59. As far as I know, no-one yet understands the problem, and the only fix I can suggest is switching to a decent browser. Algebraist 22:45, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Same Name, Different People -- How To Create New Page
I need to create a new page with the same name (i.e. the name Micheal Myers has several pages). How do I create a different/seperate page for a page that already exists? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rohan1232LA (talk • contribs) 22:40, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
 * See Disambiguation. Algebraist 22:42, 22 April 2009 (UTC)