Wikipedia:Help desk/Archives/2009 December 18

= December 18 =

Who's Dated Who
Is Who's Dated Who considered a reliable source for a WP article? I've poked about but can't find anything that discusses it. (please don't usher me off to some talk page of some WP guideline, I've done that before for copyrights and images questions, only to have my question sit for months before it gets a response.) Thanks, Dismas |(talk) 00:18, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Looks to me more like a blog or gossip site, both of which fail RS.  fetch  comms  ☛ 00:30, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree with Fetchcomms, this is a gossip site (with blog-style comments from users). There is also the fact that they also say Whilst every care has been taken in its preparation, WhosDatedWho.com does not make any warranties nor representations as to its accuracy or reliability.. This is partly a legal thing ("Hey, we *did* say that it may not be accurate or reliable, don't sue us!"), but in any case, the site does not seem to be anything more than a source of gossip. --  Phantom Steve / talk &#124; contribs \ 01:04, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Thank you! Dismas |(talk) 01:16, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Direct links to other Wikipedias
I used to know how to do this simple thing, but have forgotten how. I want to link directly to an article in another Wikipedia, withouth having to go through the http:// stuff. The article in question is here. Who can help? Lou Sander (talk) 00:46, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Like this: Wikipedia. Dismas |(talk) 00:54, 18 December 2009 (UTC)


 * (edit conflict) gives ru:Метод Анализа Иерархий. See more at Help:Interlanguage links. PrimeHunter (talk) 00:55, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Santa Ana River 1938 flood image
This image is a very famous image taken of the Santa Ana River in flood in 1938. I'm not sure where it came from but it appears on multiple websites and publications. I think it would really be of value for users of Wikipedia to be able to see the image and understand the magnitude of the floods. Would it be OK for fair use on Wikipedia? Shannon talk   contribs   01:40, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
 * If it doesn't have a source, then probably not. However, if the copyright has expired (I'm not very familiar with copyright laws, unfortunately, so I don't know if the time is 75 years or something different), it would most likely be suitable for use here.  fetch  comms  ☛ 02:38, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
 * 75 years after the artist's death in the U.S., if the photo is a U.S. source then also in all countries with the rule of the shorter term, can be up to 99 or 100 in countries without the rule of the shorter term (or a non-U.S. source). However, if it is a government work then it is almost always public domain. You say "it appears on multiple websites and publications", which may mean it is under a fairly liberal licence. That may be something worth investigating, if you have the time.  Intelligent  sium  02:58, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I think it was taken by a Los Angeles Times reporter sometime in March 1938. Shannon talk   contribs   03:57, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
 * If that is the case, it is probably still under copyright. There is a small chance that a valid fair use claim could be made if the photo was used to illustrate an article or section which directly discussed, in some detail, the 1938 flood directly; since no one can go back in time and make a copyright-free photo from said flood, only a non-free picture could be used.  However, WP:IUP and WP:NFC and WP:NFCC policies and guidelines probably would not allow its use unless the actual historical event were being discussed alongside its use. -- Jayron  32  04:14, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, I'm intending to use it on the Santa Ana River page, where the actual flood is being described. Shannon  talk   contribs   05:28, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Complete copy-paste in Agriculture in Syria
Hi, The article Agriculture in Syria is almost entirely if not completely copy-pasted (I checked 5-6 paragraphs) from. The article does mention at the end that it incorporates public domain material, but I can't imagine that this is allowed. Is this a speedy deletion, or should it be discussed somewhere? I've not seen this kind of copying before, so I don't know for sure what to do. Zoeperkoe (talk) 03:10, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
 * While paraphrasing is always preferable, copying public domain material for an article about an appropriate subject is permitted. However, this depends on whether or not the source is actually public domain. If you have doubts as to the validity of the PD-claim, see WP:COPYVIO.  Intelligent  sium  03:16, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
 * The original text seems indeed to be in the public domain, so it should be ok, then. Nevertheless, it's not good practice, I would say. Thanks, anyway. Zoeperkoe (talk) 03:33, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

donating problem urgent
While I was trying to donate to wikimedia, after filling in my credit card information, I got a message saying that said information wasn't processing correctly. I tried two more times and got the same message before giving up. The next day (that is today) I checked my bank statement and found that the charge had actually gone through three times. I stopped payment on two of the transactions, and am continuing to donate the original amount, but I thought I should drop a line to let you know this was happening. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.27.242.7 (talk) 03:35, 18 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Trying to stop a payment on a credit card is usually impossible, Good luck! South Bay (talk) 04:37, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
 * If neede, you can contact the Foundation and I'm sure they will be willing to help solve the problem. —Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 13:17, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Name & Info Change
Hello, You have me listed as Fred McQueen and I'd like to change that to my legal name, which I use now, and also make changes to other personel info on that page, some of which I want deleted, how can I do that without cluebot(?) changing it back again ? Thanks, Fred Spiker —Preceding unsigned comment added by Elwood41 (talk • contribs) 03:46, 18 December 2009 (UTC)


 * If you have a link to a reliable source which can be used to verify your request, we can make that change. We need to confirm the claims your making, and we would need that confirmation to be availible in a published, reliable source.  If you can provide us with a link or direct us to that information in a publicly availible source, we would gladly make the change for you.  -- Jayron  32  04:10, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Also, be aware that our articles are always under the name by which the subject is most commonly known; so if you are best known as Fred McQueen and have changed to Fred Spiker, but most people still know you as McQueen, that's where the article is going to stay (though we could create a redirect from the Spiker name as well). -- Orange Mike  &#x007C;   Talk  13:34, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Present/Past Tense
An article I edited frequently was for a concert tour. The tour wrapped up and so now it reflects it as past tense. However, can the summary of the actual concert stay in present tense? I see not rule stating it can't. --Shadow (talk) 05:31, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
 * To add on, I mean that I feel that despite the tour being over, the summary of the actual concert should remain present tense. --Shadow (talk) 05:37, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I can't find any policy or guideline on this, the closest appears to be WP:TENSE which is about fiction, but says Conversely, discussion of history is usually written in the past tense and thus 'fictional history' may be presented in that way as well.. My opinion is that it should be in the past tense, as the tour is finished. If you are talking about The Circus Starring: Britney Spears, the lead section is in the past tense and makes sense - I'm not sure how putting it in the present tense would make sense? However, the best place to discuss this might be on the article's talk page. --  Phantom Steve / talk &#124; contribs \ 08:16, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Not the lead section, of course that should remain in the past tense. I mean the synopsis of the actual concert. I think it looks kind of bad with the summary of the actual concert in past tense and believe it should be in present tense. --Shadow (talk) 14:05, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Having read it again, I think it reads ok in the past tense. To be honest, I think if it was written in the present tense it would be confusing - it's something that happened in the past. At the moment, it begins The show was mainly divided into four acts with different themes: The Circus, House of Fun (Anything Goes), Freakshow-Peepshow, Electro Circ and ended with the encore. It began with "Welcome to the Circus", a video introduction featuring Perez Hilton as Queen Elizabeth I, welcoming the audience to the circus...
 * I think if it was The show is mainly divided into four acts with different themes: The Circus, House of Fun (Anything Goes), Freakshow-Peepshow, Electro Circ and ends with the encore. It begins with "Welcome to the Circus", a video introduction featuring Perez Hilton as Queen Elizabeth I, welcoming the audience to the circus would make it sound like it is happening now, whereas it is a past event. --  Phantom Steve / talk &#124; contribs \ 14:14, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Persuasive Essay
I have written a five-paragraph persuasive essay of why my school system should unblock Wikipedia. If I censor the name of my school system, am I allowed to post it, and if so, where? --LimitOfCalm (talk) 07:41, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
 * We don't allow essays in the main namespace (that's we all the normal articles go, such as Reed and Laugh), what you could do is post it here: Why school's shouldn't block wikipedia, where it will be in the project namespace (like Wikipedia should be fun or WikiGoon), from there anyone on the project will then be able to edit it, should they so wish. You should make sure that the essay is in reference to school's in general, not to yours specifically. Please ask below if you have further questions.
 * Kind regards, SpitfireTally-ho! 07:47, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I would suggest that you start off with it in your user space (for example, User:LimitOfCalm/Why school's shouldn't block wikipedia) so that you can work on it first - when it is ready, come back here and ask us to have a look at it - we can help get it tidied up, etc, so that it is ready for going onto the project namespace as an essay (as per Spitfire's excellent suggestion). --  Phantom Steve / talk &#124; contribs \ 08:20, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Pedant's corner: it should be User:LimitOfCalm/Why schools shouldn't block wikipedia :) Gonzonoir (talk) 10:09, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Facepalm.svg I wouldn't normally make such a silly mistake - I blame it on both the lack of coffee at the time, and the fact that I copy-pasted from Spitfire's comment! --  Phantom Steve / talk &#124; contribs \ 11:38, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I, uh, did it on purpose to catch you out? SpitfireTally-ho! 12:29, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh, Spitfire - didn't see you there! No, I didn't try to cast any blame in your direction, honest, Guv'nor! --  Phantom Steve / talk &#124; contribs \ 13:49, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Other pendant's corner: Wikipedia would be capitalized. ---— Gadget850 (Ed)  talk 13:30, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Some people use terms like unblock about different things and I'm not sure whether the issue is that your school does not allow reading of Wikipedia, or editing of Wikipedia, or use of Wikipedia as a source, or that Wikipedia does not allow editing by computers (IP addresses) on your school, or something else. This may matter for the most appropriate thing to do with your essay, for example how to name it. In some countries a decision may have been made above the school outside their control. PrimeHunter (talk) 14:25, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Hitler
Why oh Why does the page on Hitler need protecting. The six million Jews and many others he murdered were not protected. DISCUSTING. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hughey1000 (talk • contribs) 09:31, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
 * The page needs protecting because of the persistent vandalism that happens to the page. Editors may have opinions on the man, but Wikipedia does not. Any page which has a lot of vandalism will be protected, whether it is about Hitler or about Jesus. --  Phantom Steve / talk &#124; contribs \ 09:51, 18 December 2009 (UTC)


 * You're letting your feelings about the person get in the way. What is being protected here is the article, a piece of text, not the person himself, so the comparison in your original statement is like comparing apples and elephants; two totally different things. - Mgm|(talk) 11:43, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Here are some examples of edits that are clearly unhelpful:         The number of these is a problem, since they distract from serious work on the article. Hans Adler 12:11, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
 * The word "protect" has several different meanings. Many words in English have multiple unrelated meanings, for example the word "top" may refer to a child's spinning toy, a garment, and other meanings. If you want to understand the meaning of the word "protect" on Wikipedia, read Protection policy. Also note that while Hitler's victims received no protection from Hitler, millions of Allied servicemen and women gave their lives to stop Hitler, thus protecting many further potential victims had Hitler gone unchecked. --Teratornis (talk) 21:47, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

cryptographic hash
how do I use my "secret string" to make a hash? Paper fork  ♠ 12:12, 18 December 2009 (UTC)


 * You can use an online service like this one. Regards  So Why  12:32, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Is my article ready?
Hallo everybody,

as suggested I put more references and notes on my article, to make it more "reliable". I also created a sub-page, as suggeted. Could someobne tell me please if now it could be published? Thanks

Cipresso (talk) 12:39, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
 * You are referring to User:Cipresso/FEM - European Federation of Materials Handling, I presume? I had a quick look, but I notice that all the references appear to be trade-related. Are there any references which come from totally independent sources (like national/international media?) When I did a Google News Search on "European Federation of Materials Handling", all the references I could find were trade magazines. Google Scholar and Google Books didn't really yield much either - basically minor mentions (even Factory Planning Manual By Michael Schenk, Siegfried Wirth, Egon Müller only says FEM recommendations (FEM) in their list of available guidelines for building). I'm really not sure that it meets Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion. --  Phantom Steve / talk &#124; contribs \ 13:22, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

FEM is a trade association so this may explain why some references are trade related. Although this does not mean that these sources are necessarily biased, among the reference are also the European Commission or the European Committee for Standardisation, which are both very much independent sources. FEM is a not-for-profit body such as other European trade associations, such as BusinessEurope or Orgalime, which are referred in Wikipedia as “Business Organizations”. We are unsure of what else we can provide to meet your criteria for inclusion but we are ready to assist in the best way we can. 85.118.209.145 (talk) 15:00, 18 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Other stuff exists is usually not a helpful argument. In any event, if the organisation is notable, presumably there has been significant coverage in the media? – ukexpat (talk) 15:06, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Function to either hide the left sidebar or increase textsize on only the content article?
When viewing wikipedia articles, if I need to increase the text size, then as both the text in the left sidebar and the text in the article gets bigger, the left sidebar consumes too much space on the webpage on the cost of the article's space. Therefore I think it would be great if there was either a function to turn the left sidebar's visibility on and off, so the article consumes the full page space, or, a function to only zoom the article's text size.

Fixing something like this will probably help all of the wikipedia visitors who needs to increase the text size in order to be able to read the text.

Does Wikipedia staff/developers think this is a good feature and that they will try to implement it? Or does it allready exist a good sollution to the described problem?

Have a good christmas and a happy new year!

213.89.146.219 (talk) 14:15, 18 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Logged in users can choose between different skins and many other things. Some skins have no sidebar but show some links at the top or bottom instead, for example looking like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page?useskin=chick. Without logging in you can manually add  to url's but having to do that is probably annoying. PrimeHunter (talk) 14:35, 18 December 2009 (UTC)


 * The Chick, MySkin, and Nostalgia skins don't have a left sidebar. There are also some user scripts that have been written that move the sidebar, like bottomSidebar and hidePane.  Both options require an account, and there are other benefits to creating an account too.  --Mysdaao talk 14:49, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Weird result from coding
Why does this code: which produces:  produce a period as part of it when appearing on a page? I tried to debug but... Supertouch (talk) 14:43, 18 December 2009 (UTC)


 * The period is part of the code in the template . It is intended to be used as a reference, like in the References section at the bottom of Pope Sabinian, and references normally have a period at the end (see Citing sources/example style).  --Mysdaao talk 14:57, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Will I regret creating an account from a non-static IP?
I'm on dial-up. My IP changes each time I connect, and sometimes I get other people's messages when I visit wikipedia. (The current IP I'm posting this from appears to have made an edit to a biography of a Turkish professor.) Suppose I create an account, and do all kinds of great stuff and get really comfortable with it, and then somebody using one of the IPs I was previously assigned goes and does some vandalism? Or suppose I get accused of sockpuppetry, maybe at a future time when I change to cable and a new ISP? I'd like an account, and of course I lose nothing if it goes wrong, but I sense hazards and potential disappointment. 81.131.31.130 (talk) 14:59, 18 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Creating an account has significant advantages over editing "anonymously", see Why create an account?. – ukexpat (talk) 15:08, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
 * One of the advantages of having an account is that it is no longer publicaly linked to your IP. If one of your old IPs vandalises, it won't be linked to you. Of course, if it was to be you (speaking hyperthetically of course!), although an editor or admin couldn't link it to you, a checkuser could. If it wasn't you, then the checkuser would be able to see that your account wasn't using that IP. If you were to be accused of sockpuppetry, a checkuser would be able to see what IPs you were using around the time, and what IPs the sockpuppet(s) used, and see if they are connected - they wouldn't think "Oh, look, there's an IP they used 5 months ago, it must be them!". The fact that both you and they may have been using a BT OPENWORLD connection (I get that through the above IP) does not mean that you will be accused of being same person - although a checkuser would generally be able to work out if the two are the same person by the usage history! I think it would be a good idea for you to get an account - as I don't think you'll have any of these problems - just remember that if you 'behave' and do nothing wrong, you have nothing to worry about! --  Phantom Steve / talk &#124; contribs \ 15:16, 18 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Is there a slight risk that a vandal uses an IP I got assigned last week, and like me uses the latest (well OK the 3.0 variety) Firefox on XP, and I get my account banned (or something) for it? Or will it be recognised by the checkuser that the IP range in question is randomly assigned and therefore I can't be held responsible without further evidence? 81.131.31.130 (talk) 15:28, 18 December 2009 (UTC)


 * It's unlikely. Checkusers are aware that IP's rotate. Even if the other IP was disruptive and somehow a SPI was started, so long as the other IP didn't share a similar editing style, you'd probably be fine. And even if you were accidentally accused, you'd still be able to respond and clear your name. Overall, if you establish a username and work from there, you're much less likely to have to worry about this sort of thing, since you'd be able to build up a history showing yourself to be a productive editor. So in short, no, don't worry about it. -- B figura  (talk) 15:44, 18 December 2009 (UTC)


 * OK. I was just concerned because of the guy replying to this question: who seemed to have had a bad experience. 81.131.31.130 (talk) 15:52, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Hmm, not sure what his/her deal was. But I would still say you don't need to worry about it. Sockpuppet investigations aren't started at the drop of a hat, and checkusers are smart enough to know that IP's geolocating to schools are likely to be shared. (Not to mention that you can generally respond to a SPI before they issue a block, and even if you are blocked accidentally, you can use the unblock template, or even email arbcom if necessary). I'm not going to imply the system is perfect, but there are other, more likely, things you should worry about first, such as tornados and velociraptor attacks. -- B figura  (talk) 16:19, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Do not want account
do not want account i opened. wanted one for e-mail not to use Wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Katiesgrammie (talk • contribs) 16:00, 18 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Your account cannot be deleted, just don't log into it again and forget about it. – ukexpat (talk) 16:11, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Small text
Wikipedia page writing is very small and i cant read anything. Changing the fonts via tools>options aint working.

what can i do to make the fonts in wikipedia larger?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.228.233.57 (talk) 16:58, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Have you tried holding down Ctrl and rolling your scroll wheel? TN X Man  17:03, 18 December 2009 (UTC)


 * If you tell us what browser you're using, we can try and provide specific instructions. Best, -- B figura  (talk) 17:05, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

how to submit a name and bio for Wikipedia?
I'd like to submit name and bio so that it comes up on Wikipedia When their name or company is searched on a search engine. How do I do this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.53.153.135 (talk) 17:03, 18 December 2009 (UTC)


 * You will need to first register an account, which has many benefits, including the ability to create articles. Once you have registered, please search Wikipedia first to make sure that an article does not already exist on the subject. Please also review a few of our relevant policies and guidelines which all articles should comport with. As Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, articles must not contain original research, must be written from a neutral point of view, should cite to reliable sources which verify their content and must not contain unsourced, negative content about living people.


 * Articles must also demonstrate the notability of the subject. Please see our subject specific guidelines for people, bands and musicians, companies and organizations and web content and note that if you are closely associated with the subject, our conflict of interest guideline strongly recommends against you creating the article.


 * If you still think an article is appropriate, see Your first article and How to write a great article, and please consider taking a tour through the Tutorial so that you know how to properly format the article before creation. An Article Wizard is available to walk you through creating an article, but you will need to create an account to use it. if you don't wish to do so, you can submit a proposal for an article at Articles for Creation. TN X Man  17:04, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Citing sources vs. providing external links
Hi Is it nescesary to cite sources if you mention external websites at the bottom that contains the info in the article?

To bee precise I have added text to the page of the "Roland JX-10" keyboard synthesizer, my sources are my manuals, vintagesynth.com AND many years of operation the device. At the end of my text addition there is a


 * Yes citing sources should be very specific because it makes verification easier. Directing a reader to the home page of website does not help them if the page that provides the reference is buried several layers deep in the website. But also please read WP:RS to see what qualifies as a reliable source for Wikipedia purposes - your experience is not a reliable source. – ukexpat (talk) 17:09, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
 * See also WP:FOOT. Footnotes on specific sentences are robust against future editing by other users. When you type a paragraph of text in an article on Wikipedia, other users may rearrange it in the future, possibly undermining the usefulness of embedded comments that apply to larger units of text. If you have original work that you would like to publish, search WikiIndex for alternative outlets. For example, Synthesizers.com Wiki looks like a possibility (although it seems to run on the PmWiki software rather than MediaWiki which Wikipedia uses - I may be biased by familiarity with Wikipedia, but I have yet to see another wiki software package that I like better than MediaWiki. I suspect that part of the reason for Wikipedia's huge success is that the software designers got a lot more right than wrong here). A wiki that specializes in synthesizers or electronic music will likely allow a wider range of content on its topic than Wikipedia does. --Teratornis (talk) 21:37, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Image deletion
On our Birth of Coffe wikipedia entry someone deleted the photograph I donated. I did give rights permissions so why was it deleted? Daniel Lorenzetti —Preceding unsigned comment added by Daniellorenzetti (talk • contribs) 17:24, 18 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Probably because the image (which was uploaded to Commons and deleted from there) was not clear as to the permission. I suggest that you head over to the Commons OTRS page and submit the permission as described there. And just a reminder that it's not "our Birth of Coffe [sic] wikipedia entry", it's a Wikpedia article that anyone can edit. – ukexpat (talk) 17:30, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Unhide Template
I want to ask, if I add two templates at the end of an article then automatically both of them gets hidden, so is there any way that any one of the templates can be unhidden by default and the others remain hidden. Thanks for your replies. Managerarc (talk) 18:25, 18 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Many but not all templates designed to be at the bottom of an article have a state parameter described at Template:Navbox. PrimeHunter (talk) 18:55, 18 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks a lot. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Managerarc (talk • contribs) 21:03, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

How to Download thousands of wikipedia in PDF
Hello everyone,

Could anyone help me download a lot of wikipedia article in PDF. I can't do manually the number is too big

I am looking for a bot or something else. I downloaded the encyclopedia in xml but wikipedia generates the PDF online, and it adds everything in it.

Thanks a lot —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jadito9 (talk • contribs)


 * Have you tried Help:Books? You can make a collection of articles in it and generate pdfs of them all. DuncanHill (talk)

Would like to find out where abouts of one Hindu Goddess by the name "Rajura Devi" Or "Rajara Devi" or "Rajala Devi"
Where can I find an information about one HIndu Goddess by the name "Rajura Devi" Or "Rajara Devi" or "Rajala Devi". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Chinjo27 (talk • contribs) 22:21, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Have you tried the Humanities section of Wikipedia's Reference Desk? They specialize in answering knowledge questions there; this help desk is only for questions about using Wikipedia. For your convenience, here is the link to post a question there: click here. I hope this helps.  Intelligent  sium  22:40, 18 December 2009 (UTC)