Wikipedia:Help desk/Archives/2009 March 16

= March 16 =

What are the attributes of the WikiProject template?
{ChicagoWikiProject |importance= |class= Start|auto=yes|nested=yes}}

In the above example, what does "auto=yes" do?

More importantly, is there an article that explains all the attributes of the WikiProject template?

Where could I have run a search to find the answers and how would I have entered the search? Pknkly (talk) 03:57, 16 March 2009 (UTC)


 * See Template:ChicagoWikiProject which says:


 * auto This parameter is for the use of bots. It calls the stubclass template.
 * All templates have their own page which often but not always shows documentation. If you click "edit this page" on a page then the bottom of the page will show links to transcluded templates. PrimeHunter (talk) 04:05, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
 * The last question is quite good - I wish every questioner on the Help desk would ask that. Knowing how to look up answers is far more valuable than merely getting the answer to one immediate question, but it seems not many questioners on the Help desk have experienced that insight yet. You could start by reading Help desk/How to answer, which codifies some of the methods the Help desk volunteers use to look up answers to questions they don't know off the top of their heads. However, for specialized questions like the one you asked above, the answer may or may not be written in a form that our still relatively primitive search tools could find. When the answer to a question is not written down in plain English somewhere, you may have to resort to analyzing code, or in the worst case reverse engineering, to find the answer. It would be difficult to explain how to do those things, as they are complex skills. Basically, if the person who wrote a template did not document what he or she did, then you would need a comparable knowledge of template coding to figure it out. --Teratornis (talk) 05:09, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Convert this code to wiki markup?
Is it possible to turn all the code below into wiki markup, as in take out the and  stuff and replace with the | or |-, you know? I just really do not like the way it currently is.

Please and thank you.--Pointedlines1 (talk) 04:00, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I recommend before you do anything else, try to find out why the table code is the way it is. Look in the history of whatever page you got the table code from, and see who put it there. Then leave a question on their Talk page. How you proceed next will depend on why they did what they did. If someone had a solid reason for coding the table that way, you need to account for the reason if you change the table. Or maybe the person generated the table from some program, and doesn't have any real need to code it that way, in which case you could re-code it without starting an edit war (maybe). --Teratornis (talk) 05:21, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
 * When you do figure it out, this HTML to Wiki converter works well. --—— Gadget850 (Ed)  talk  -  10:02, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

BIPM question
What is the copyright status of works of the International Bureau of Weights and Measures, such as photos they provide of reference units, given that they don't belong to any country? Neon Merlin  05:16, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Beats me, but the basic rule is, if the content is not clearly under a free license, or it is not really old, then it is usually under copyright. You could look in Commons:COM:EIC where I collected a list of all the copyright-related material I have found so far on Wikimedia Commons, where these kinds of obscure copyright questions come up routinely. In the worst case, you might have to use the OTRS method, to properly document permission to redistribute images from their copyright holders. Actually the worst case is when you can't get permission from the copyright holder. --Teratornis (talk) 05:29, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Their website has a copyright notice, which may be relevant to whatever you're doing. Algebraist 12:39, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Should I delete this artcile and how?
I was on the page for Narco, a charity. I went to the charities website but noticed the charity was called Nacro not Narco, so I moved it (First time I ever did that), then I did a search of nacro to test if it moved okay. But I discovered there already was a page on nacro. So, should I delete the one I moved ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narco_(charity) )? And how? -OOPSIE- (talk) 06:48, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
 * If Nacro (charity) contains any content that is not in Nacro, the articles should be merged. Since they both have non-trivial history, that could be done best by an admin. —teb728 t c 07:39, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Copy right
Is the content on Wikipedia protected by copyrights? People reproduce the content at other forums are they liable to seek any prior permissions? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.169.147.137 (talk) 08:04, 16 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia is licensed under the GNU Free Documentation License, and you can also read our copyright policy here, as well as Citing Wikipedia. Or if you just want a quick answer: Wikipedia is protected by a copyright, but that copyright is free and allows use and modification. So all we typically ask for is that the website be properly attributed if its content is copied elsewhere. Someguy1221 (talk) 08:28, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Also, if you're talking about images, which are commonly taken and used from WP, the file pages will have copyright information on them, which indicate whether you can use them. If you can use them, there are typically requirements of attribution (unless the image is in the public domain, in which case you can use it freely without worry). Creative Commons and GDFL are common attribution-required licenses that allow reusing, but require attribution to the image creator and typically licensing any derivative work under the exact license of the original. See here for more information. Any image hosted at Commons is free to reuse. Any image at WP that is licensed under "Fair Use" is copyrighted and you don't have the rights to reuse the image. Best of luck! ~  ωαdεstεr 16  «talkstalk» 15:40, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Arif Mardin
When I looked up info on Arif Mardin, I was surprised when I didn't see Chaka Kahn's name listed in the artist worked with section. She is the only reason I recognized his name in the first place. Can you please add her name to the artist worked with section? Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.108.115.170 (talk) 08:19, 16 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Thank you for your suggestion. When you believe an article needs improvement, please feel free to make those changes. Wikipedia is a wiki, so anyone can edit almost any article by simply following the  link at the top. The Wikipedia community encourages you to be bold in updating pages. Don't worry too much about making honest mistakes — they're likely to be found and corrected quickly. If you're not sure how editing works, check out how to edit a page, or use the sandbox to try out your editing skills.  New contributors are always welcome. You don't even need to log in (although there are many reasons why you might want to). Someguy1221 (talk) 08:29, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Make a new page
how do i make a new page from scratch? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.210.120.227 (talk) 08:53, 16 March 2009 (UTC)


 * You can use the articles for creation process to submit an article to Wikipedia, or you can click on the "Log in/Create account" link at the top right to create your own account. Once this is created, read Your first article, which explains how to create it, and also gives useful tips to avoid having your article deleted. Cheers. Someguy1221 (talk) 09:06, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

archives talk page
hello i'm attempting to set up the cluebot III archiver on my page .. but it doesn't seem to be correct .. could you have a look what is wrong.ta.(Off2riorob (talk) 09:45, 16 March 2009 (UTC))
 * It looks like Cluebot III archived your talk page yesterday, so it's working to that extent: did you want it to work differently? Gonzonoir (talk) 12:39, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

thank you Gonzonoir (talk)it's working now ta.(Off2riorob (talk) 19:02, 16 March 2009 (UTC))

Digital Light
wat is an digital light processing  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.212.202.101 (talk) 11:46, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
 * TN X Man 11:54, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Continued printing problem with Dovey Johnson Roundtree article
In follow-up to my earlier question about why I was coming up with a blank second page in printing the "Dovey Johnson Roundtree" article: you had said the problem was with my printer and instructed me to change the settings. However, the problem is definitely unique to this article. I have just printed out three random Wikipedia articles and the results are fine. Can you check to see if there are any imbedded commands I misakenly put in the Roundtree article which I haven't noticed, or whether the size of the box is a factor? Or perhaps there's something I haven't thought of. The problem occurs regardless of whether I click on "Printble version" or just go straight to my Print command. Thanks. Megavoice (talk) 11:53, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
 * What browser are you using?
 * Does the printable version of Batu Lintang camp show the same problem?. --—— Gadget850 (Ed)  talk  -  13:00, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Yes, the printable version of the Batu Lintang Camp article shows a comparable problem -- i.e, pages 5, 6, and 16 print out as blanks.

My browser is Internet Explorer. Megavoice (talk) 15:16, 16 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Edit User:Megavoice/monobook.css and add:


 * Then follow the instructions at the top of the page to bypass your cache. --—— Gadget850 (Ed)  talk  -  15:22, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Next time, you could save everyone some effort by trying this the first time Gadget suggests it. Algebraist 16:03, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Had I understood Gadget's instruction I would not have requested clarification from your extremely busy staff. Megavoice (talk) 18:11, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Please don't mind grumpy pants here ;) TastyCakes (talk) 18:14, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

I wonder whether someone with a moment to spare could walk me through the steps to correct the problem I am having with the missing printed pages? I have no wish to engage in sniping or dignify an editor's inappropriate comment by responding in kind. I just need to resolve this problem and I will need your further assistance in doing so since I do not understand the instructions I was given by Gadget. Your editors have always been very helpful in the past and I am sure that in the right hands this particular problem can be dispatched speedily and with civility. Megavoice (talk) 18:32, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
 * If you don't understand advice being given to you, it is much more sensible to say so than to ignore the advice entirely. What Gadget is suggesting is the following: first, select the code he has given you, starting with the @ sign and ending with the final }. Second, click on the link User:Megavoice/monobook.css. Third, click on the 'create this page' tab at the top of the resulting page. Fourth, paste the copied code into the resulting text input box and click 'save page'. Last, bypass your cache by holding down the ctrl key while clicking the reload button. The pages should then print properly. If they don't, come back here and we'll try to give more help. Algebraist 18:40, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

IE 7 reports errors on Wikipedia pages
For the past week or so, all pages on Wikipedia display with the following error message: "Line: 5; Char: 1; Error: Expected identifier, string or number; Code: 0". I am using IE7 on a Windows XP PC. The pages still seem to display properly, even with the symbol in the bottom left corner. Why is this happening? --Thomprod (talk) 12:20, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
 * It wouldn't surprise me if someone was along shortly with a targeted reason for the error, and I don't mean to be snarky but download Firefox and be done with it. IE has so many problems rendering code on this site. Here's a surprising link to do so: http://www.ie7.com/. --Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 12:36, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Fuhghettaboutit, and I would if I could, but when I edit from work, my employer only allows the use of IE. --Thomprod (talk) 13:31, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I use IE7 and haven't seen this problem. You could try to clear your entire cache. PrimeHunter (talk) 14:52, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks, PrimeHunter. That worked temporarily, since it logged me out.  But as soon as I logged back into my Wikipedia account, the error returned on every Wikipedia page. --Thomprod (talk) 15:06, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

There was a problem last week with wikiminiatlas and IE. Might be that is what you were experiencing. It should be fixed now, but then again, it might be something else, or it might not be fixed. --Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 15:17, 16 March 2009 (UTC)r


 * If you don't get the error when you are logged out then it may be a problem with one of your account settings. You can try to clear User:Thomprod/monobook.js or disable gadgets or settings at Special:Preferences. PrimeHunter (talk) 15:22, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
 * User:Thomprod/monobook.js was created a week ago so it may be the culprit. PrimeHunter (talk) 15:25, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for pointing me in the right direction, PH. Seems that by checking "Add a clock in the personal toolbar that displays the current time in UTC. (also provides a link to purge the current page)" in the Gadgets tab of my Preferences produces the error.  Unchecking it (and clearing the cache) allows pages to display without the error.  I guess I don't really need the UTC clock, but I wonder why this Gadget produces an error? --Thomprod (talk) 16:59, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I cannot reproduce the error in my IE7. Maybe it is some incompatibility with another setting or something on your computer. Since you don't really need the gadget, I am marking it as resolved. PrimeHunter (talk) 17:11, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
 * You also have an error in your monobook.js It has an array, and the last element of the array should never have a comma at the end. I think that might be your true problem. --Th e DJ (talk • contribs) 17:14, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
 * That seems to fit with IE's cryptic error message. It's odd that I couldn't reproduce the error when I installed that gadget and used the same settings code, though. Algebraist 17:17, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
 * (edit conflict) In my failed attempt to reproduce the error I copied User:Thomprod/monobook.js to User:PrimeHunter/monobook.js and enabled the gadget. PrimeHunter (talk) 17:19, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Now I'm getting the error (or something equivalent in my own language). I had disabled the gadget by the time I got it, but still have the same monobook.js. PrimeHunter (talk) 17:31, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I've just realized I was unclear above as to what gadget I was talking about. My test involved the gadget 'Change UTC-based times and dates, such as those used in signatures, to be relative to local time.', since that is the gadget Thomprod's .js was customizing. Algebraist 17:36, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I deleted the text in User:Thomprod/monobook.js. Problem seems to have gone away. --Thomprod (talk) 19:14, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Question about replacing images
If you find an image that does a better job of explaining the article than a previously uploaded image, but isn't an edit of another image (so you would make another image page instead of simply replacing the old one), would you delete the older image? Elm-39 - T/C 12:27, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Not unless there's some special reason to do so. For example, if the old image was non-free and is not now used in any articles, it should be deleted. Algebraist 12:35, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually, the old image *is* non-free and isn't used in any articles anymore. I'll get on that. Elm-39 - T/C 12:38, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

medical measurements compared to teaspoons
I need to know how much of a mg is compared to a teaspoon measurement? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.219.234.44 (talk) 14:05, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Symbol move vote.svg Have you tried Wikipedia's Reference Desk? They specialize in knowledge questions and will try to answer just about any question in the universe (except how to use Wikipedia, since that is what this Help Desk is for). Just follow the link, select the relevant section, and ask away. I hope this helps. Algebraist 14:06, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
 * And anyways, you can't make the conversion unless you know the density of the product. A milligram (mg) is a unit of mass; a teaspoon is a measure of volume (the metric equivalent is the liter). --Fullobeans (talk) 21:56, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Discussion Talk page
How do I add a topic to this page for discussion? (Truwik (talk) 14:38, 16 March 2009 (UTC))


 * I'm not sure what you mean. This page is "Wikipedia:Help desk" and your above post is a topic you added to the page. If you want to discuss the Help desk itself (rather than asking for help about something) then you can post to Wikipedia talk:Help desk by clicking the "new section" tab at the top of the page. It's the same for other talk pages. See also Talk page guidelines. If you change your account settings then the link to start a new section may change. PrimeHunter (talk) 14:49, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm an editor on the "Second Amendment" article. I would like to add a topic for discussion on that article's 'Talk page' but can't find out how to do that. I have checked all the 'Help' pages repeatedly and can find no step-by-step info. I clicked 'New section' on that page and added my topic but saving it did not add it to the table of topics there. Where it went, I don't know. (~) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Truwik (talk • contribs) 16:20, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Clicking the 'new section' tab is the correct way to add a new section. If it didn't work, this might be some sort of temporary Wikipedia problem. Try again, and, if it doesn't work, come back here and tell us exactly what you did. Algebraist 16:30, 16 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I don't know what went wrong. It sounds like you did the right things but I don't see the edit in Special:Contributions/Truwik. Try again. There are sometimes server hiccups or communication problems so edits are not saved. PrimeHunter (talk) 16:38, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
 * The sections Talk:Second Amendment to the United States Constitution and Talk:Second Amendment to the United States Constitution were created today by users not logged in. If one of them is you and you don't see the section then try to bypass your cache. PrimeHunter (talk) 16:46, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

It's there now! Don't know when though. Thanks!! (Truwik (talk) 16:49, 16 March 2009 (UTC))


 * Edits become visible immediately when they are saved. If you created "Mad Hatters out in force" or "U.S. v. Miller" today then I guess your browser had an older version cached and you could have bypassed your cache to see your section immediately. PrimeHunter (talk) 16:56, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Contributing to Category:Articles_needing_non-English_script_or_text
I am interested in contributing to the Category:Articles_needing_non-English_script_or_text by adding non-English names to articles. I believe that a person's name in the original language qualifies as a fact, and therefore not eligible for copyright. Does this mean that I can take the person's name from any source and add it to the article? Do I need to provide a citation?

For example, if I am looking for the Chinese characters for Cho Ki-Jung's name, I am able to find them at this web site: http://100.naver.com/100.nhn?docid=837602. However, the web site is copyrighted. Can I use the information anyway? Daram.G (talk) 14:39, 16 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Basic facts cannot be copyrighted. Commentary on facts can be copyrighted. --—— Gadget850 (Ed)  talk  -  15:24, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
 * The case you describe sounds fine, but yes you should include a citation. That both attributes the work and allows us to verify it - establish where it came from, and that it's true. When tracking down these sources, you should also make sure they meet Wikipedia's reliable source requirements - i.e. that they're independent, third-party, and have good standards of editorial validation. Gonzonoir (talk) 17:12, 16 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Thank you for your help! I'm looking forward to contributing. Daram.G (talk) 09:27, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Requests for Permissions
Can I remove requests for permissions if:

a.) The recipient has replied to the notice on their talk page?

b.) The recipient has used their permissions

c.) The request failed and the user made a comment following it e.g Ok, I'll come back soon

d.) The requester cancels their own request but did not delete it?

The reason I am asking is so I can assist with more people helping clean up Wikipedia by cleaning up the request page. Limideen 17:00, 16 March 2009 (UTC)


 * If you refer to Requests for permissions then procedures are probably better to discuss at Wikipedia talk:Requests for permissions. I don't work there. PrimeHunter (talk) 17:15, 16 March 2009 (UTC)


 * The requests there should be archived by a bot after a period of time. Hers fold  (t/a/c) 17:58, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Creating Profile for my CEO
Hi, My CEO has asked me to create a profile on his behalf. What is the best way of doing this? Is it safe to use my account? Or should I create an account for him? I want to be certain that should I at some point not be working for him that he can access the profile and make changes to it himself. Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vivalaudrup (talk • contribs) 17:23, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
 * If he asked you to create an article about him then you would have a conflict of interest, and should not do so. Wikipedia's policy is to adhere to a neutral point of view and it would be difficult if not impossible for you to do so while working on his behalf.  Grsz 11  17:25, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I think you're misundertanding the nature of Wikipedia. The only people who have profiles here are editors of Wikipedia, and those profiles are for things related to Wikipedia, not for general information about editors. General information about notable people goes in encyclopedic articles, which are not at all like personal profiles, and should not be started by the person described or anyone acting or their behalf. Algebraist 17:29, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Conflict of interest in what you typed seems to be a very big concern here, because its been mentioned already heres a few more things to keep in mind; Its important to know whether your CEO is notable and should have a wiki biography. I would suggest reading the following wiki pages for more information on this Such as Notability, Biographies of living persons and the conflict of interest page mentioned above. Beyond the conflict of interest you need to be aware as to that if the article is not constructed properly, sourced and notable it may be criteria for speedy deletion. There are many CEOs today of companies or heads of organizations that do not fit the criteria for a wikipedia profile page (their pages have been created and subsequently deleted). My suggestion may be to start with the actual company page (keeping in mind the policies of conflict of interest and adhereing to them) and build around that, if more information is present on the CEO that makes him notable, a seperate article for the CEO can then easily be created (If he is notable) Hope this helps.Ottawa4ever (talk) 18:48, 16 March 2009 (UTC)


 * There are other options: Wikipopuli and Wikibios for example. – ukexpat (talk) 02:28, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

templates
Hello, I can not make templates. For example, making "boxes" for articles. I have got no idea about them. I think maybe it is because I have mostly spent my time studying books and not programming for computers, or dealing with computer program parameters or something like that. How can I begin making templates? Where from I should begin? What possible links can be useful for me? Thank you very much.--Oldmountains (talk) 17:39, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Not all templates are difficult with highly techincal codes. Why not try Help:Template for starters? What also helped me was just looking at other templates and getting a feel for what does what.  Grsz 11  17:42, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
 * (ec) There's a number of potentially useful links at WP:EIW, but it's probably a good idea to focus on specific template-related things you want to do rather than aim directly for a full understanding of templates. What, precisely, do you want to do? Why do you want to write a template, and what will you do with it when you have written it? Algebraist
 * Yay! Somebody other than me linked to the Editor's index using a shortcut I put in! --Teratornis (talk) 22:08, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
 * And I would bet that we already have an infobox that you can plug into the article and fill in the blanks. If you can give us an example of an article, we can make a recommendation. --—— Gadget850 (Ed)  talk  -  18:49, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Several kinds of templates may be "boxes" for articles. For example we have infoboxes and navigation boxes. There are also locator maps, although I wouldn't recommend trying to make new ones as a first template editing project. You might find it easiest to start by making new navigation boxes, because they are fairly easy to create by using the Navbox template as your base template. The first step is to make some "sandbox" pages in your "userspace" where you can test your templates before making them "live". Then find an existing template that is similar to what you want, copy it to your sandbox page, and start editing it until does what you want. I cannot really explain this in a few sentences of a Help desk reply. Template coding is simple to learn for anyone who has experience with computer programming, but also note that many programmers are self-taught, which means they picked some programming language and started learning with that. Learning new things without a teacher consists of two basic steps:
 * Reading the friendly manuals.
 * Trying things to see what happens.
 * It also helps if you take complete notes about what you are doing. This is because when you see something for the first time, you have to manipulate it in your short term memory. Most people can only hold four to seven "chunks" of information in short term memory at one time. Learning a new skill requires mastering far more chunks than that. Most people have long term memory with almost limitless capacity, but it's hard to push chunks of information from short term memory to long term memory. Therefore it is important to augment your short term memory by writing down each new chunk you find. If that chunk falls out of your short term memory before getting into your long term memory, you still have it in your notes. By reviewing your notes periodically, you can drive those chunks into long term memory, and make sense of a new domain much faster than you can by the usual undisciplined approach.
 * For example, if you read my complete reply to your question, I completely overwhelmed your short-term memory, probably leaving you confused at this point. You can work your way out of your confusion by copying my reply to your page of notes, and then revisiting it each day for a while until you have puzzled out the meaning of all the strange terms I used. After a while, these words will enter your long term memory and things will start to make sense. You cannot get there without making the necessary effort.
 * --Teratornis (talk) 22:08, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia Vandalization Contest by Something Awful
The Something Awful site is vandalizing WP as part of some contest. Seems like something lonely 13 year olds would enjoy... Just be on the lookout. http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=2971520 18:47, 16 March 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.164.134.228 (talk)


 * I wouldnt worry too much over this. he says on his site anyway that the information has to be there for about 400 days plus. Which is very unlikely that something unsourced and questionable and often read would last this long(though it could happen but i would imagine the vandals would have to know more about how to edit wikipedia properly (which might be a good exercise for them)). If your worried over this i would suggest reading information on to how to fight vandalism, and how to detect this type of vandalism (you can find this throughout wikipedia). Vandalism is the best place to start. Im always more worried when stephen colbert says something, than a furom thread......Ottawa4ever (talk) 19:04, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, actually, some of them might be smarter than we give them credit for. Chances are it'll be to some lowly article anyway :P (that was a joke, I care about those too.)  Argh, well, with Huggle we're cool.  Thanks for the heads up, 71.  GARDEN  19:10, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually, I had noticed an increase in the level of, ahhhh... stealth vandalism shall we say. I'm not foolish enough to spill the beans so to speak - but a definite change in the type of vandalism. — Ched ~  (yes?)/© 20:02, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
 * agreed with ched, This can turn into a beans issue very easily. It would be nice to see this move to the WikiProject Vandalism studies for further talks into this type but the project doesnt have much activity these days Ottawa4ever (talk) 20:59, 16 March 2009 (UTC).

adding templates to my page.
hi I was trying to add a template to my page .. right now there is one there for I support renewable energy ..which has been added but .. I want to see a nice box and all I 've got is a link?(Off2riorob (talk) 19:56, 16 March 2009 (UTC))
 * What you're looking for are userboxes - there's a massive gallery of them on that page, and instructions on how to use them. I specifically note User:Djr xi/User green energy which seems to match what you're after. ~ mazca  t 20:05, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

thanks very much for your help User talk:Mazca from. User talk:Off2riorob.

How do I...
how do i help stop page vandilism —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lamboboy732 (talk • contribs) 20:00, 16 March 2009 (UTC)


 * There are lots of ways to help prevent page vandalism at Wikipedia. You might like to begin by reading WP:VANDAL, although it is quite long. The sections "How to spot vandalism" and "How to respond to vandalism" may be most useful. If you see vandalism, you can check the page history (click the "history" link at the top) and use "diffs" to show the differences between pre- and post-vandalism versions of the page before changing the page back to it's pre-vandal state. I see you have already made several edits to Wikipedia - if you would to experiment with editing pages and changing back and forth between versions, you can use the Sandbox. -- Kateshort forbob  20:39, 16 March 2009 (UTC)


 * By not making edits like this and this. See WP:OR and WP:RS — Ched ~  (yes?)/© 02:26, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Category:Enoch
I would like to create category called Category:Enoch in order to re-organize the material in the Enoch series. Enoch is a very mysterious character that would still need to be de-mythologized for the sake of ancient and modern studies in religion. Is there anywhere I can propose or discuss the creation of this category ? ADM (talk) 20:33, 16 March 2009 (UTC)


 * There are a number of folks named Enoch; any particular one? --—— Gadget850 (Ed)  talk  -  20:45, 16 March 2009 (UTC)


 * (e/c) I imagine that you could just start adding the category to relevant articles (WP:BEBOLD maybe?), but of course there is no guarantee that the category would remain if other editors disagreed. Are there other, similar categories already in existence for Biblical figures? I tried looking for some, but my already sparse religious knowledge seems to have deserted me! You could try looking through the sub-categories under Categorical_index for a precedent.
 * For discussion, perhaps the best place to begin might be the talk page of Wikiproject Religion, or alternatively the talk page of one of the articles mentioned at Enoch (I wasn't sure which Enoch you meant), although a discussion there may not get as many contributors. -- Kateshort forbob  20:52, 16 March 2009 (UTC)


 * The son of Jared is by far the most famous one, known simply as Enoch, there is merely a problem in the disambiguation which I would like to fix. ADM (talk) 20:53, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Okay, having looked a bit more, there appears to be a handy Category:Categories named after Hebrew Bible people and the more populated Category:Categories_named_after_religious_figures which might give examples on how this has been done before. Are you looking to put all articles relating to Enoch (ancestor of Noah) into one Category:Enoch? I assume you wouldn't want to include everything in Special:WhatLinksHere/Enoch_(ancestor_of_Noah), which interestingly includes The Voyage of the Dawn Treader and List of characters in Warrior Nun Areala. I suppose you could sub-categorise into Category:Descendants of Enoch and Category:Ancestors of Enoch, for example, depending on how many articles might fall under the parent category. I think it would definitely be useful to solicit ideas/points of view from other editors with similar interests, perhaps in the venues mentioned above. I'm not sure how far categorising alone would go towards de-mythologising this individual; that might be a wider issue. -- Kateshort forbob  21:26, 16 March 2009 (UTC)


 * The thing with Enoch is that he is mentioned in almost 10 different religions, something which is truly incomparable in the scope of comparative religion. By the way, if there is an administrator around here, I would like to rename Enoch (ancestor of Noah) into Enoch in order to re-organize the disambiguation page. ADM (talk) 21:34, 16 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Some points:
 * I see there is a Category:David. Fortunately, it does not try to include all Davids. Such a category page should document its restrictions.
 * What do you mean by de-mythologizing Enoch? The odds of the first Enoch having been an actual historical figure about whom we could reliably say anything today appear to be vanishingly small. See: The Bible and history and The Bible and history - basically, archaeology does not support a number of the testable aspects of Biblical history, and a person alleged to have existed before the Flood of Noah (itself an utter fiction according to mainstream science) would be unlikely to have left any archaeological evidence, if we accept the Biblical account of an obliterating global flood. It seems to me that de-mythologizing Enoch would equate to erasing him - what else is there to Enoch other than myth?
 * There are other options in addition to categories to assist readers with finding related articles. See Categories, lists, and navigation templates. In particular, navigation templates are an excellent way to group articles, and you may find this less restrictive than having to fit an article grouping within an existing category scheme. Navigation templates may be friendlier to the reader because they don't require as much work to get to related articles, and they can group the related articles with annotations and selectivity. For example, compare Category:Peak oil with Peak oil. The category is just an undifferentiated list of articles. It doesn't tell the reader what is important, where to start, or which article might be relevant to which aspect of the topic.
 * --Teratornis (talk) 21:46, 16 March 2009 (UTC)


 * By de-mythologizing, I mean that any religious figure can be de-mythologized, something which has not been done enough for Enoch. Also, this is not limited to the flood, there is also the case of Hermes Trismegistus in the Egyptian religion, which is an alleged incarnation of Enoch. ADM (talk) 21:51, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Defining a term by repeating the term is not helpful. demythologize defines it thus:
 * (transitive) to remove the mythological elements of something to find the underlying meaning
 * What "underlying meaning" do you intend to find for Enoch? Would this be like demythologizing Paul Bunyan or Rumpelstiltskin? And what does this have to do with categorizing the Enoch articles? --Teratornis (talk) 22:15, 16 March 2009 (UTC)


 * There are a lot of things I could find by categorizing him. There are at least 10 major historical figures that have been alleged to be Enoch, I could start by categorizing that. For instance, Count Saint Germain and Proclus were alleged to be re-incarnations of Enoch, I would add them to the catgegory. There is already an article on the Islamic view of Enoch. Some people have also made unusual links between Enoch and Jesus, I would also try and categorize that. Some people also believe that Enoch is still alive, I would try to categorize that too. ADM (talk) 22:21, 16 March 2009 (UTC)


 * The possible difficulty with that approach might be that you would end up with too "fine-grained" a list. As Teratornis mentions above, categorisation is, essentially, an organisational tool. There isn't really an effective way to ascribe meaning to the articles you are categorising other than through sub-categories: for example you could have Category: Individuals alleged to be reincarnations of Enoch if there are a number of these (otherwise, you might just want to add Category:Enoch to all the related articles). So in order to provide any meaningful information through categorisation, you could end up with many sub-categories, each containing only one or two articles.


 * In addition, how would you categorise the fact the some people believe Enoch is still alive? Is there an article on this (I wasn't able to find one)? Otherwise, you would probably be restricted to adding Category: Reincarnation or possibly a new category, something like Category: Individuals believed to have had an unnaturally long life (?) I haven't been able to find an existing category for this. -- Kateshort forbob  23:21, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Hmm, appears I have spawned at least 4 non-existent categories tonight
 * Kateshort : it's probably best not to red-link hypothetical categories. Doing so pollutes the Special:WantedCategories list with categories that aren't necessarily "wanted."
 * ADM: I think that based on what you are saying, a navigation template would give you more flexibility along with the ability to annotate your article links. Plus you would have more leeway to do what you want with a navigation template, whereas messing with categories can put you in conflict with other users who have different ideas about how the category structure "should" be.
 * Also, when seeking to demythologize an ancient belief system, beware the Historian's fallacy, unless you don't care what the ancient people may have actually believed. There's every reason to suppose people in the past really believed what the Bible says about Enoch (among other things), and in some cases were willing to kill or otherwise sanction people who didn't share their beliefs.
 * --Teratornis (talk) 00:38, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Delete previous images
There are several versions of a particular image piling up now. How can I delete the previous images which no longer pertain to the article? TechOutsider (talk) 20:59, 16 March 2009 (UTC)TechOutsider
 * Why do you want to do that? If there's no pressing reason, don't bother. Algebraist 21:11, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Well a user is pressuring me to do so. I don't mind though, there are several versions of the same image, only rescaled. TechOutsider (talk) 21:35, 16 March 2009 (UTC)TechOutsider
 * I will presume we are discussing an image where several versions of the same name has been uploaded. Yes, different versions will show on the file page. Yes, they can be deleted by an admin. But, only if there is a problem such as a copyright or BLP (biography of living persons) issue. --—— Gadget850 (Ed)  talk  -  21:54, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the prompt response. I will just ignore the multiple copies now. TechOutsider (talk) 23:24, 16 March 2009 (UTC)TechOutsider

AFD closure
Can someone point me in the direction on a document on AFD closure. Thanks SunCreator (talk) 21:05, 16 March 2009 (UTC)


 * You may find Deletion guidelines for administrators and Non-admin closure to have the information you are looking for. There is also a section giving an overview of closure at Guide to Deletion. More general information on deletion is at Deletion policy, while the technical nuts and bolts of deletion process are listed at Deletion procedures. -- Kateshort forbob  21:32, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Help with username conflict
I need some input here Requests_for_comment/Duke53_2 I do not know if I am proceeding properly at this point, but I have tried everything to resolve this conflict with User:Duke53. I have apologized and ask content be removed from his user page as it is compromising my right to vanish and right to privacy, as this former username (which was deleted) is linked to my personal/professional correspondence. Thank you Hoopsphanatic (talk) 21:41, 16 March 2009 (UTC)


 * As an outsider to this incident i tried looking at it through the eyes of straying onto the page by mistake. I couldnt even find the original 'disruptive' edits that were spoke about by the other user (no diffs, or links, or where they were originally placed, or even in the edit histories(maybe im blind i just couldnt find them)), just the ones pasted on his/her user page. I would suggest just riding off into the sunset and ignoring him/her. We all have incidences on wikipedia that can be called skeletons if and if not we are responsible for them, but we strive to move on. I doubt anyone will dig into your old user name (and if they read his user page for those edits im sure like me they wont be able to find the original edits if they look, or in some manners trace the edits to their source (if they really want to look at it). Now this isnt a full knowledgable explanation on what to do just my thoughts, and I know your worried about your correspondance. Dispute resolution would be an option since it appears to be a escalating response. I find that No personal attacks seems to apply to this case a bit ( I may be mis-interpretting). If you read the document over youll find a few circumstances that apply to your situation that Im refering too that might help in removing this information. Keep in mind though as you read that supposeofly these edits did occur by your admission. Youll need to think hard if you want to make a case out of this, but i think in the policies your answers are there and this can be resolved. Hope this helps a bit, Happy editing and retirement Ottawa4ever (talk) 01:53, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Deletion of image
Please delete Clash_of_Civilizations_map.PNG because I have uploaded a duplication of this image with another filename. Thanks. Qrfqr (talk) 21:45, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Tagging it with db-author might get it deleted faster, since more admins patrol CSD than this helpdesk. Algebraist 21:59, 16 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Deleted.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 23:17, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Cannot reset password for account
I have searched the fact and cannot find a method to resolve this problem: My GlennF account is associated with my current active email address. I cannot find my password. I used the reset password page to have the password emailed to me. It has never arrived. I confirmed via looking at articles I have edited that my account is, in fact, GlennF. I checked my server mail logs (as I run my own server) and there is no inbound email received today from wikipedia.org or any similar address, and thus it wasn't bounced due to an error on this end.

I do not see a secondary method of resetting a password if this primary method doesn't work.

216.254.23.175 (talk) 23:13, 16 March 2009 (UTC)Glenn Fleishman
 * User:GlennF has not made any edits. Are you in fact User:Glennf, and, if so, is that what you typed in the 'email new password' form? Usernames are case-sensitive on all but the first letter. Algebraist 23:20, 16 March 2009 (UTC)


 * (ec)There's unfortunately nothing we can do. Emailing a new password to the email address in the account's preferences is the only standard way of fixing the problem, and as hasn't edited since last November, it's not even technically possible to confirm that it is your account (server logs of IP addresses are purged after 30 days). Someguy1221 (talk) 23:21, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Pictures on PC
plz help me how can i get it so that the picture of st.george and his flag go in2 my pictuers on my pc —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.220.226.66 (talk) 23:29, 16 March 2009 (UTC)


 * If I understand you correctly, and you are running a Windows based machine - right click on the image, and pick "Save as", "Save image as", etc. - then use the folder navigation to find the folder you want "My Documents" .. Pictures, etc. — Ched ~  (yes?)/© 00:21, 17 March 2009 (UTC)