Wikipedia:Help desk/Archives/2009 November 6

= November 6 =

Hurstpierpoint College
Is the fact a pupil of Hurstpierpoint College was killed on the railways in January 2009 sufficiently noteworthy that it should be included in College's article? Tradgey, yes, but of encylopedic value.. i don't think so? I don't want to remove it myself however for fear of upsetting anyone. 80.47.247.250 (talk) 03:24, 6 November 2009 (UTC)


 * I've removed it. Someguy1221 (talk) 03:30, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Firefox Display issue
For some weird reason, the appearance of Wikipedia just radically changed in Firefox several days ago. Any ideas? The side bar (interaction, toolbars, language, etc., along with the search box) no longer appears next to the main page, but below it, which makes the main page far, far less useful, since you now have to page down several times to get to the search box, which is what I mostly use, though I like to look at the main page to see random articles, too.

AFAIK, nothing changed in FFox, I don't have any add-ons that ought to alter it that I know of, and it continues to look proper and unchanged in Opera.

Java and Javascript are both enabled, and I don't see any setting in the main FFox options list that should control/constrain this. It's like it's no longer interpreting the style/CSS info correctly or something. I just see no setting anywhere in FFox which should control or affect this

I suppose it's possible that there was a new sub-version of FFox installed, I forget. Is anyone else having this problem? Any suggestions?

24.250.216.51 (talk) 07:15, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I just got an upgrade from Firefox 3.0.14 to 3.0.15 and am not experiencing these problems. In WP, I am using Monobook skin - which skin are you using? Select "My Preferences" upper right, then "Appearance". --Redrose64 (talk) 08:56, 6 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Works fine for me in Firefox 3.5.4, 3.6 beta 1 and 3.7 nightly. Sounds like a cache/CSS issue, have you tried a forced refresh or clearing the cache ( → select "Cache")? Regards  So  Why  09:20, 6 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Only logged in users can choose skins and other things at Special:Preferences. It also sounds to me like you have to bypass your cache. The main page works fine for me in Firefox 3.5.4, also when I log out. PrimeHunter (talk) 11:58, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

zero sum game
what is meant by "zero sum game" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.17.136.139 (talk) 10:13, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Try searching for zero sum game in the search box which is in the left side bar of every page. It might find an useful article. —teb728 t c 10:26, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Forgot my USER name
I changed laptops and forgot my user name, I found solutions about forgotten passwords, not about...user names, i don´t want to start a new account...heeeelp!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.14.136.101 (talk) 13:54, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Do you remember which articles you've edited in the past? If so, go to the articles, click on the "history" tab and look down until you see a name that you recognise as being your username. BencherliteTalk 13:59, 6 November 2009 (UTC)


 * (edit conflict) If your account had enabled email and you have access to old mails then look for a mail from wiki@wikimedia.org. If you remember pages you have edited then try clicking the "history" tab on those pages and look for your username in the page history. If you have an idea what the username starts with then you may be able to find it at Special:ListUsers. PrimeHunter (talk) 14:04, 6 November 2009 (UTC)


 * On this note, there is bug 13015 – Ability to retrieve forgotten usernames, which I submitted in February '08. It's just sort of sat there ever since. I'd fix it myself but I never knew how to make patches. • Anakin (talk) 15:58, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Le Fort Fracture 4
I was looking up LeFort Fractures. I was in the field of radiology for 22 years, I am currently retired.....I noticed in the information provided that there is information on the levels of LeFort Fractures, 1,2 and 3 which I have seen numerous times.....this is very rare, but there is a LeFort Fracture 4.....I have only seen it on 3 occasions in my career....this fracture involves all of LeFort Fractures 1,2 and 3, but in this case, a LeFort Fracture 4 involves the fracture of the Mandible as well. I have seen patients involved in auto accidents where they are projected through the windshield causing severe facial injuries and fracturing the mandible as well.... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.41.96.39 (talk) 14:21, 6 November 2009 (UTC)


 * 1) is lefort fractures level 4 mentioned in any good quality books? you could mention ont he lefort fracture talk page about level 4, and mention the reference, and edit the articel to have it put in. Scrotal3838 (talk) 23:47, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Edit Count
What is the best website for edit counting? Mìthrandir 15:34, 6 November 2009 (UTC)


 * You can view your edit count using Wikipedia's official edit counter by clicking the "my preferences" button. Jeffrey Mall (talk • contribs) - 16:00, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
 * If you simply want total edits counts, your "my preferences" is probably easiest. If you like more details, such as edits by namespace, edits by month, and top edited articles, this tool is helpful.-- SPhilbrick  T  21:01, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

123 to 123
I'm make links to create invidial bus routes articles in future? Help me to replace following at once example:
 * 123 to 123

123 is original text in source code, and 123 is replaced new text so like Thank you.
 * 1 to 1
 * 26 to 126
 * 337 to 337
 * G21 to G21

Bus88MRT (talk) 17:42, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm probably not the only person reading the Help desk who cannot quite understand your question. See WP:LINK for information about links on Wikipedia. Note that "Bus route G21" is not a good title for an article because it is ambiguous. More than one city around the world might have a bus route G21. The article title should start with the name of the bus company or transport authority, to disambiguate it; see for example London Buses route 22. You may wish to join WikiProject buses. Also note that if you are personally associated with a bus company or transport authority, your username may violate WP:ORGNAME. --Teratornis (talk) 21:06, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Duplicate Redirects
There appears to be two different redirect pages with (what I would call) the same title. One is "National statistics" and the other is "National Statistics" (second one has a capital 's'). One goes to the Chinese version, the other to the Brit. Searchers may be confused if they happen to use caps or not in their search.

Can something be done to clarify/combine the redirects into possibly a disambiguation page?

Thanks! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.143.89.245 (talk) 17:42, 6 November 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree that there should be a disambiguation page using the National Statistics title, to which the lower case version can be a redirect. Let me take a crack at it. – ukexpat (talk) 18:02, 6 November 2009 (UTC)


 * I made a start at National Statistics...needs more work... – ukexpat (talk) 18:42, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Adding Pages?
How do i add my own pages? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ilovekarl (talk • contribs) 19:08, 6 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Before creating an article, please search Wikipedia first to make sure that an article does not already exist on the subject. Please also review a few of our relevant policies and guidelines with which all articles should comply. As Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, articles must not contain original research, must be written from a neutral point of view, should cite reliable sources which verify their content and must not contain unsourced, negative content about living people.


 * Articles must also demonstrate the notability of the subject. Please see our subject specific guidelines for people, bands and musicians, companies and organizations and web content and note that if you are closely associated with the subject, our conflict of interest guideline strongly recommends against you creating the article.


 * If you still think an article is appropriate, see Your first article. You might also look at How to write a great article for guidance, and please consider taking a tour through the Tutorial so that you know how to properly format the article before creation. An Article Wizard is available to walk you through creating an article. TN X Man  19:11, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Prose
Is there a policy or guideline or convention on wikipedia that prefers prose to lists when possible in articles? Ltwin (talk) 19:31, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
 * The manual of style has information here which may be of use. It compares embedded lists to prose and advises of when to use one or the other. TN X Man  19:33, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

KCKN (defunct)
To Whom It May Concern:

I am writing the contribution: "KCKN (defunct)". On 11-06-09, I added four paragraphs to the last section I am building which is entitled, "KCKN Pioneers With Country Music in 1959".

Please help me SAVE this new material (entered 11-06-09) so that I may continue building this story. I do not want to have to re-write the same information.

I am dyslexic and have to work very hard in the most friendly computer situations. This is one of the most difficult/complicated web sites I have worked with -- so your help in assisting me in saving this added material will be greatly appreciated. Thank you vry much.

Jack Lester —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jack Lester (talk • contribs) 19:51, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
 * You can save it yourself; Wikipedia can be edited by anyone. However, another editor may find your changes do not meet policy, and may revert them. Your changes are never lost, however; they are stored in the page history.  Intelligent  sium  23:31, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Can one sort more than one column in a sorting table?
In, say, Windows Excel, one can not only sort more than one column at a time, but 2 or more. Can this be done with Wikipedia's sorting tables? Thanks.Civic Cat (talk) 20:51, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
 * If you get no answer here, you could try asking on Help talk:Sorting. --Teratornis (talk) 21:08, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
 * See Sortable_table. You simply sort on the least significant key first, then next most, etc.-- SPhilbrick  T  21:57, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Virginia Fair Vanderbilt article
I have been trying to edit a small portion of the Virginia Fair Vanderbilt article. A small portion of it (two sentences) refer to the Sisters of the Holy Family and the Virgina Fair Legacy Fund. This portion is inaccurate. The following should be inserted and can be verified by the Executive Director of Holy Family Day Home in San Francisco, or by the Sisters of the Holy Family in Fremont, CA. Thank you and see the two replacement paragraphs below...

From 1906 through 1911 or so, Birdie Vanderbilt volunteered to assist the Sisters of the Holy Family (the only Roman Catholic Order of nuns founded in San Francisco) to care for children while their parents attended to the post quake crisis. Tents were constructed in many parks throughout the city and Birdie worked along side the Sisters to ensure that the children were cared for and educated.

In 1910, Birdie was the sole benefactor for the construction of a new three-story childcare center (AKA Day Home) replacing the previous facility that had burned down during the 1906 earthquake. (Unfortunately, the 1985 Loma Prieta earthquake rendered that beautiful, Italianate architecture building unsafe, and a new facility was constructed and opened in 2007. One can read more of this history at a display located in the new Day Home at 299 Dolores Street directly across the intersection from the Mission Dolores Basilica.) The Virginia Fair Legacy Fund was established in 2005 and seeks to ensure that the work of proivding quality early childhood education and care for children of working parents will continue for another century. Visit www.holyfamilydayhome.org for more information on the Legacy Fund. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.127.47.30 (talk) 21:02, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Can you just go ahead and do it? If you don't know how to add a reference, just add a note with the url on the article talk page.-- SPhilbrick  T  22:00, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Username Issue
I've used the username Master0fPuppets (spelled with a zero) online since the days of BBSes (I used Mstr0fPpts when there was a character limit, of course), and I'm trying to create an account on here - but it's not letting me. It's telling me it's too similar to another username. I'm not trying to copy someone else, I'm trying to be myself, the name I've always used online, and have on yahoo, and aim, and google, and hundreds of other sites... is there a way to bypass the warnings and use it? Please let me know.

Thanks.

Master0fPuppets (Rob) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.44.26.47 (talk) 22:40, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Another user has (mostly) beaten you to the name. It's User:Master of Puppets. You're not allowed to create an account that is very similar to another user's, which is why you were blocked from creating it. To see if there's anything you can do, this page is your best shot. TN X Man  22:44, 6 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Just so you know, you should be prepared to be disappointed. Master of Puppets is a very active editor and an administrator, so despite your good intentions it will probably be seen as unsuitable for you to have a name which could so easily be mistaken for his.  AJ  Cham  23:02, 6 November 2009 (UTC)


 * There is also User:MasterOfPuppets with no spaces and the letter O. PrimeHunter (talk) 23:56, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

How do you edit existing images?
How do you edit existing image like Rugby_Union_blank_line_ups.svg using external editors? JaFa 01 (talk) 23:00, 6 November 2009 (UTC)


 * You can edit vector images like the one you mention in programs such as Inkscape (free) or Adobe Illustrator (not free). You can also edit them in a text editor, but you need to be very au fait with the SVG specification to do so.
 * You may find some tutorials handy: TutorialsAndHelp - Inkscape Wiki or adobeillustratortutorials.com, for example. Regards,  AJ Cham  23:09, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I got it thanks. JaFa 01 (talk) 00:28, 7 November 2009 (UTC)


 * On the image description page, there is a link to to the image file under the preview, which looks something like Rugby_Union_blank_line_ups.svg . Right click and select "Save link/target as", to save the file to your computer. You should then be able to open it in Inkscape.  AJ  Cham  00:28, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
 * And see Commons:COM:EIC. --Teratornis (talk) 03:16, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Encyclopedic?
Usually, school cafeterias are not considered note worthy in Wikipedia articles, but because of Port Charlotte High School's unusual cafeteria setting, I'm thinking about adding a section about it (with references) to the article. Below is a draft of the section titled "Champ's Cafe" I intend to add; please commment on it. ''The school cafeterias in the public schools of Charlotte County are known as Champ's Cafe. Port Charlotte High School's Champ's Cafe is unique in that it is setup like a food court similar to those in shopping malls. There are ten lines each offering different menu items. The menu items are displayed on a sign also displaying the lines name and logo. Unlike mall food courts, the food served in all lines is prepared in the same kitchen, and the lines are owned and operated by the school, not rented out to private businesses. The lines are Homerun Heros (offers wrap sandwiches and salads), Powerslice Pizza (offers pizza by the slice), Red Baron specialties (offers submarine sandwiches), Slam Dunkin Nuggets (offers chicken nuggets or popcorn chicken), Hot & Spicy (menu changes daily), Main Event (menu changes daily, open for breakfast), Pirate Treats (ala carte snacks, drinks, and desserts, open for breakfast), Kick-in Chicken (offers chicken sandwiches, Champ's Grill (offers grilled chicken sandwiches), and Champburger (offers hamburgers and sloppy joes). Pirate Champ's Cafe complies with the requirements of the National School Lunch program. Certain food offerings are restricted to full price customers (students not on free or reduced lunch).'' PCHS-NJROTC (Messages) 23:27, 6 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Is this cafeteria the subject of news articles by independent sources? Are there any industry publications (for schools and such) that discuss this layout specifically?  Basically, could it pass the general notability guidelines?  Otherwise, I personally don't feel it would be notable enough to mention.  Dismas |(talk) 23:31, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Your additions do not seem encyclopaedic; some of the statements seems to be biased, and few people would be interested in the offerings of a school cafeteria. If, however, your cafeteria has significant coverage in sources, it may be notable.  Intelligent  sium  23:32, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Here's one link to a news article it's mentioned in, and I'm quite certain there are others. PCHS-NJROTC (Messages) 23:37, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
 * (e/c x3!; [parts snipped based on redundancy]) You put "with references" in parentheses and then posted the proposed text, but if I had a choice to looking at only one to gauge whether this is a worthy addition, I'd see your references alone over the text. They are not an afterthought but the fundamental basis on which any text is built. Without them it's impossible to judge the true merits of the text.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 23:39, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
 * and pretty much sums it up reference wise. The goal was to write it here nearly exactly as I would on the article, and I didn't want to add a reference section to the help desk. PCHS-NJROTC  <font color="black" face="Comic Sans MS">(Messages) 23:43, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Google search results do not look promising. Those examples seem to be the only sources, and only the first is independent. <font style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva"> Intelligent  sium  23:51, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Try taking out the "'" it's often mispelled Champs Cafe. <font color="red" face="Comic Sans MS">PCHS-NJROTC <font color="black" face="Comic Sans MS">(Messages) 23:58, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Champ's Cafe is featured at, although that's doesn't have anything to do with the proposed section. I remember articles in the newspaper about it, but they're apparently not online, or at least it would be a pain to find them in search. <font color="red" face="Comic Sans MS">PCHS-NJROTC <font color="black" face="Comic Sans MS">(Messages) 00:06, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Instead of having it's own section, what if the unusual setup were mentioned in a discription of the campus? I think it's something worth some kind of a mention in the article because it's unique, I'm just not sure how to go about doing this in a way it's not going to be contested. There's really honestly nothing notable about the menu (I tried very much to keep focus on the menu to a minimum), but I've never seen anything in a school setup like the Champ's Cafe at PCHS. As far a mentions in news sources, we're talking about something that was originally designed back in the 80's; of course you're not going to see as many articles on the internet about it as you would something unusual from the 2000s or even late 90s. This was news before the days before everything being world famous online, but since Wikipedia is WP:NOTNEWS. <font color="red" face="Comic Sans MS">PCHS-NJROTC <font color="black" face="Comic Sans MS">(Messages) 01:17, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Searching Bing show's it must be more common than I'd thought, but a lot of what I'm seeing is that a lot of the other schools that have them have recently converted a traditional school cafeteria into a food court whereas I'm of the understanding that PCHS always had a food court setup. Apparently Lemon Bay has a food court setup as well, but I don't know if there's started out that way or if it was converted. What's weird is that no other school I've seen has had that, it must be a newer concept for some schools. <font color="red" face="Comic Sans MS">PCHS-NJROTC <font color="black" face="Comic Sans MS">(Messages) 01:43, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
 * (my 2¢) The cafeteria layout seems hardly encyclopaedic, even if it's really unique as you claim. It's bordering on indiscriminate information and advertising; who other than the current student body - and, of course, the vendors - really care about the topic? Note that being verifiable (even that looks to be in doubt) does not automatically mean the information should be included. If I were you, I would not mention the cafeteria at all if I could help it. Now if the cafeteria won, say, some sort of architectural award... Xenon54 / talk / 03:24, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Notability guidelines do not directly limit article content. See WP:N for the details and links to related policies. If it helps the reader understand more about the school and is verifiable then a quick blurb could be OK. If the article is ever to be GA (surprise surprise) or even FAC it will need to be broad in coverage. Make sure you have a source discussing its uniqueness and don' go overboard with the detail and you should be fine. My suggestion would be to start a "Facilities" subjection and include this with other information about the building.Cptnono (talk) 05:45, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Reading the menu makes me wonder what the student body looks like. I don't know whether the content "belongs" in the article, but at least the questioner is asking the right question: "I'm just not sure how to go about doing this in a way it's not going to be contested." That's the key to everything on Wikipedia: the rules are just an attempt to help us guess what we can write that won't get removed by other editors. Ultimately, though, it all comes down to whether the editor who wants to add something is willing to risk the time to add it, if the contribution gets deleted. If even the person who wants to add some information has doubts about whether it will stick, though, it sounds like a high-risk edit to me. But only the questioner can decide how much risk to take. Another sneaky option with a better chance of sticking would be to draw up an SVG graphic of the cafeteria floor plan, with everything labeled. I think that would be less likely to get deleted than a prose description of a bunch of food stations. The prose is kind of annoying anyway, but a graphic of the floor plan could look cool. --Teratornis (talk) 06:58, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
 * You can also photograph everything you like in the cafeteria, as long as any copyrighted artwork appears only in a de minimis kind of way, upload your photographs to Commons, and make a gallery page there. On Commons we can document things photographically to a degree that doesn't really work in Wikipedia articles. For example, if you like wind farms, you could upload dozens of different photographs of the same wind farm to Commons and put them on a gallery page. That's allowable there, even though you would not get away with stuffing all the photos into a Wikipedia article about the wind farm. Commons doesn't mind having redundant photos of the same subject because it provides more options for all the different Wikipedias to pick and choose. You can link a Wikipedia article to a stockpile of related photos on Commons with . --Teratornis (talk) 07:07, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
 * This does seem encyclopedic enough to be a headed section in the school's article. To the question "who else cares" I should think that would apply to the school itself more than it would to this unique cafeteria.  In addition to branded and unbranded food vendors likely interest would come from school planners, school districts and nutritionists, not to mention students at schools with run-of-the-mill cafeterias.  Will this become a new paradigm or is this a lone exception?  In either case, it would seem to be noteworthy.  (Though I seem to recall hearing about a school somewhere with an actual little KFC in the cafeteria...thought that was a high school, but it could be a university?)  If length is an issue, I think the first four sentences could be distilled to two, and you needn't repeat the "offers" inside each subsequent parenthetical; the "Pirate" seems uncalled for in the second-to-last sentence, as it's not in the first sentence.  Abrazame (talk) 23:25, 7 November 2009 (UTC)