Wikipedia:Help desk/Archives/2009 October 12

= October 12 =

If there is a thread on a forum that was covered in 2 newspaper articles, would that be able to be used to say the forum is noteable for it's own article?
Please answer. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Omegakingboo (talk • contribs) 00:22, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I doubt it. Indirect coverage generally doesn't establish notability. The coverage must be significant - i.e. the article must be about the forum itself. Xenon54 / talk / 00:31, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
 * A single thread in a forum? Not likely. The forum may have an article if it's extensively covered, but a single thread should probably be something exceptional. ≈ Chamal talk ¤ 00:38, 12 October 2009 (UTC)


 * The notability guidelines state that we need significant coverage;


 * "Significant coverage" means that sources address the subject directly in detail, and no original research is needed to extract the content. Significant coverage is more than a trivial mention but it need not be the main topic of the source material.


 * If you're still in doubt, ask again providing the links you have.  Chzz  ►  06:21, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Logging in to edit
I wish to append a note about your Blackface article. I had a piece published today in www.onlineopinion.com.au

and want to update the article on Wikipedia to say not all Australians are ignorant of the context of blackface BUT can't login I dont think I've used Wiki before but I'm constantly being told my login is incorrect 115.70.115.107 (talk) 01:16, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
 * The Blackface article is not protected, so you should be able to edit without logging in, though your IP address will be recorded as all edits require attribution. If you would still like to log in, be sure you've followed all the directions at Special:Userlogin/signup. Xenon54 / talk / 01:34, 12 October 2009 (UTC)


 * To be honest, the chances are high that you are not typing either the user name or the password exactly as you did when you created the account. It is case-sensitive. If you've forgotten the exact password, I suggest you simply create a new account, which is fine - as long as you don't use the old one.


 * If, instead, you are getting some message about the IP address being blocked or something, please let us know by posting the exact message here. Cheers,  Chzz  ►  06:18, 12 October 2009 (UTC)


 * What is your username? PrimeHunter (talk) 10:57, 12 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Since you say "I don't think I've used Wiki before..." I think what might be going on is that you are attempting to login without ever having signed up for an account, and the username you are entering is already taken by someone else coincidentally. If so, you will get the message " " (rather than ") If this is what's going on, you have to first create an account through Special:Userlogin/signup, as Xenon54 provided above, and you will have to choose a different user name than the one you have attempted to log in under as ii is already taken (though note that if the name was signed up for but never used, then you may be able to usurp it). Cheers.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 22:35, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Birds
Why don't birds get electrocuted on electric wiring? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.57.44.71 (talk) 11:03, 12 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Because they only touch one wire (and the air which is a very poor conductor). See . Have you tried the Science section of Wikipedia's Reference Desk? They specialize in answering knowledge questions there; this help desk is only for questions about using Wikipedia. For your convenience, here is the link to post a question there: click here. I hope this helps. PrimeHunter (talk) 11:47, 12 October 2009 (UTC)


 * And before you ask the question, try using the search box at the top of the reference-desk page to search the archives. You will find that your very question was brought up and discussed not too long ago: Reference desk/Archives/Science/2009 August 4. Deor (talk) 15:09, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Please do your own homework. Welcome to the Wikipedia Help desk. Your question appears to be a homework question. I apologize if this is a misevaluation, but it is our policy here to not do people's homework for them, but to merely aid them in doing it themselves. Letting someone else do your homework does not help you learn how to solve such problems. Please attempt to solve the problem yourself first. You can or. If you need help with a specific part of your homework, the Reference desk can help you grasp the concept. Do not ask knowledge questions here, just those about using Wikipedia.-- NotedGrant  Talk  15:14, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Translation from Wikipedia.de
I am novice on  wikipedia. I hve a relative who  was VIP in E Germany. His bio  can be found  on  wikipedia.de "Hans Schaul" I go to British Wikipedia  and his name  does  not  come up. i also do not see a way  of  translating  from  wikipedia.de Please  advise  procedures Thank You Hamakabim (talk) 15:47, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I think this is the article you are referring to [Hans Schaul]-- NotedGrant  Talk  15:51, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
 * If you wish to translate the German article into English, you can find instructions at Translation. Good raise  15:56, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Page title
Will the page title be my user name or my signature? Thanks HLW International (talk) 16:17, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Page title for what? If you create a new article, it will be named whatever you'd like. If you're referring to your userpage, it will be listed at User:A and E. TN X Man  16:22, 12 October 2009 (UTC)


 * But your user page appears to be an article you are trying to write: this is not appropriate for a user page. It is appropriate to use a user subpage to work on articles that are not yet ready to be released to the main encyclopaedia, but not the user page itself. You should move User:A and E to User:A and E/HLW International. However, I suggest that the page would not be appropriate for Wikipedia without a complete rewrite, as it is not written from a neutral point of view, contains blatant advertising, and lists no independent sources. If you were to move it to HLW International, i.e. to the main Encyclopaedia, I have no doubt that it would be very swiftly deleted. Furthermore, judging by your signature, you are closely associated with the company: if that is so, you have a conflict of interest, and are strongly urged not to write such an article. --ColinFine (talk) 23:23, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
 * There's nothing wrong with writing an article in one's own userspace, wherever. However, please do not write an article about a company you work for, own, or are otherwise affiliated with, this is, as noted above, COI. Intelligent  sium  review 01:08, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I would recommend changing your signature to avoid the conflict of interest claims, as Colin implies. ~ Amory ( u •  t  •  c ) 14:28, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

More on IPA tone
I begin a section on using IPA suprasegments on Oct. 10 (Help desk), but there was not a satisfactory solution. Simple IPA symbols are easy from the IPA bar on the edit page, but most suprasegmentals are lacking. For the most part, I am successful in grabbing code from MS Word and copying and pasting into Wikipedia, like this: [ǎ]. (Any reason I shouldn't do that? This is not what others are doing.) Now I need a fall-rise tone and MS Word can't do it. (It is called the dipping contour-tone example here:http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/05/IPA_suprasegmentals_2005.png.) I found what I needed on the Tone (linguistics) page [a᷉], but really this is a very inelegant and time-consuming way to edit Wikipedia pages, having to go hunting for every IPA symbol we need. Any ideas how else this can be done? How did the people who coded the Wikipedia pages I'm grabbing code from do their pages?--seberle (talk) 16:41, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
 * In my previous reply I linked to WP:IPA. The lead section of that page links to the International Phonetic Alphabet article, which appears to have a pretty complete list of IPA characters, and instructions on how to type them. See:
 * International Phonetic Alphabet
 * International Phonetic Alphabet
 * If that doesn't help, you probably need to communicate directly with some people who actually type the characters you want to type (it seems none of those people are reading the Help desk lately). You can determine who typed a given text on a page by using the WikiBlame tool. You could also ask on Wikipedia talk:IPA and read the archives of that page. A possible hint is here:
 * Wikipedia talk:IPA/Archive 1
 * You may be able to modify what appears in your editing toolbar. Or maybe you could lobby for a change to the standard toolbar. If it has an IPA entry, that entry should contain all the IPA characters, I think. At a minimum, you'd like to know the reasoning of the people who decided to omit some IPA characters from the IPA edit bar. --Teratornis (talk) 18:48, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Incidentally, it appears that 3030 people watch the Help desk, out of registered user accounts on the English Wikipedia. There might be more people who read the Help desk without watching it, as well as some of the 3030 watchers who don't regularly read it. Most likely, the Help desk only samples a small fraction of the overall Wikipedia community, so the helpers may not know the detailed answer to every question. But we can often point to the pages that would probably lead to the solution if a solution exists. Sort of like the way a reference librarian does not know everything, but knows where to find everything. --Teratornis (talk) 19:06, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Thank you, Teratornis, for your helpful input. I did read the WP:IPA article, but it is long and I did not notice the "Keyboard Input" section at the end. Even so, it is just 12 links... more technical material to slog through!

In short, this looks complicated. I was hoping for something simple, but at least I have a thorough answer now. Thanks!

One last question: For now, I can usually just copy and paste from MS Word, but I notice others are not doing this. I am nervous that there may be a good reason not to do it this way. If any of the 3030 people who watch the Help desk happen to know if this is bad practice, please let me know. --seberle (talk) 19:41, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

I just found the solution! Most of the 12 links in International Phonetic Alphabet are either useless for Wikipedia, or else offer no more than Wikipedia's own IPA bar. But one of them, the IPA Character Picker 7, is perfect: It is easy to use, has the complete IPA set with all markings, and apparently gives the same sort of coding that others are using. Thanks again, Teratornis. --seberle (talk) 19:56, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
 * It's surprising that WP:IPA doesn't seem to have an obvious section: "How to type IPA characters". Somebody should add one, or ask on the talk page why there isn't one. --Teratornis (talk) 21:04, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Note that WP:IPA (the project page) is distinct from International phonetic alphabet (the article). Since Wikipedia is not a how-to guide, that is the articles are not how-to guides, an experienced Wikipedia editor usually looks to the project pages to find how-to information for editing Wikipedia. Thus it is somewhat indirect for the how-to information for editors to be hiding at the bottom of a long article, while the obvious project page omits any how-to information. An editor should not need exceptional investigative powers to figure out how to edit something like IPA which is all over the encyclopedia. On Wikipedia, we count on everybody who had trouble figuring something out to edit the manuals to make it easier for the next victim editor. --Teratornis (talk) 21:16, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
 * There is also Manual of Style (pronunciation). --Teratornis (talk) 21:22, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Ok, Manual of Style (pronunciation) is helpful. I wish I had seen that first. It confirms that it is ok to copy and paste from other sources, as I had been doing. It looks like it has some helpful tips for the Mac, but I am working from a PC. I am surprised that IPA Character Picker 7 is not mentioned. This is by far the easiest way I have found to insert complex IPA symbols. I have added a reference to the manual. Thanks again for all your help. I am slowly finding my way around Wikipedia!--seberle (talk) 23:41, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Consider adding a link to your user page: Editor's index to Wikipedia. That's the most comprehensive guide to Wikipedia's internal manuals, tools, etc. Often there are several manual pages on the same topic. Sometimes it can take a while to make sure you found all of them. You have to read all of them to find where people hid things. In general, however, almost everything you could need to do on Wikipedia is documented somewhere. And when we are surprised to find that something isn't, we can fix that. --Teratornis (talk) 23:58, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks again, Teratornis. Is it just me, or are the manuals a bit disorganized? Not to mention rather lengthy for occasional editors like me. "Where people hid things" is an accurate description, I think! --seberle (talk) 14:28, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

'what wikipedia is not'
Hi guys, I have just been accused of 'vandalism'. despite the fact there was a description of the edit and even comment on the talkpage. bit annoyed to be honest as it blatantly wasn't vandalism, but my question is.. i removed photos of the boxes that each type of xbox 360 comes in, and the 'xbox live logo' which is just the words 'xbox live'. the article is saturated with pictures, and im pretty sure photos of boxes, especially as they differ in each region is part of "wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information" or "A complete exposition of all possible details." can you confirm this please? and whether a logo of essentially text in the fonts of the 2 services "xbox" and "live", no icon etc, is the same thing?   chocobogamer      mine   17:43, 12 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I've left my opinion on Black's talk page. Jeffrey Mall (talk • contribs) - 18:28, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Whenever there is a topic area on Wikipedia which attracts enthusiasts, they have a tendency to add more content than a non-enthusiast (or a slighly less obsessed enthusiast) might consider to be "encyclopedic". Therefore, enthusiasts of that topic should be aware of the alternative outlets for their enthusiasm. Anybody can start their own wiki and fill it with any content which is legal, and many people have done this for topics which have enthusiastic communities. See for example Wikiindex:Category:Games. Many game wikis exist. Someone who wants to document every trivial detail of a particular game or gaming system should use a wiki which prizes that trivia. Note: this is just a general observation for lowering the intensity of a dispute, not an opinion about the merits of the given case. I suspect most people feel more personally insulted when their contributions are wiped out completely than they would feel if their contributions were merely moved to somewhere else. Thus if you want to delete people's contributions without offending them more than necessary, a good way to do it is make sure they end up with something rather than nothing. --Teratornis (talk) 19:00, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

center inline some templates
I need to center inline these templates, otherwise these templates are pointless --W30984308 (talk) 20:12, 12 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Could you explain a little more what you want to do? --Floquenbeam (talk) 21:34, 12 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Is it that you want Former monarchic orders of succession to appear in the middle of the paragraph with text on either side of it? If so that would not be in keeping with our style guidelines for articles and I can't see how it renders the template less useful, much less pointless. If it's something else, please clarify your question.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 22:17, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
 * No, I need the templates to be independent. The text should _not_ be on either side of it. I need the template to stick to the left margin, not the right margin. As it is now, it does not make any sense because templates drift to the wrong sections. Thus, the templates cannot be sensibly used...--W30984308 (talk) 01:10, 13 October 2009 (UTC)


 * These templates do not have an option to float left. You need to ask for that feature on the template talk page. Frankly, I would think about converting these to navboxes to use at the bottom of the page. ---— Gadget850 (Ed)  talk 12:30, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Help with LaTeX quirk
I'm having a problem with the built in math formating package. A bold mu is not obviously bold and some notation depends on having an obviously bold mu. $$\mathbf{\mu}\mu\mathbf{\mu}\mu$$ See what I mean? Is there a work around or a way to file a bug request? -Craig Pemberton (talk) 21:50, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I didn't even know LaTeX could be bolded... You can file bug reports at BugZilla, but the backlog there is longer than here! Intelligent  sium  review 23:05, 12 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Try the \boldsymbol command: $$ \boldsymbol\mu $$. You need to be using the packages amssymb and amsmath; which, it would seem, Wikipedia does.
 * Dr Dec (Talk)  13:00, 13 October 2009 (UTC)