Wikipedia:Help desk/Archives/2009 September 2

= September 2 =

Reference Number links
The reference number links (ex. [1]) are not beside their pictures on wikipedia's tony hawk and jonh robert colombo page. please help? and also on John robert colombo's page for some reason his list of humour books have a line above them which severs the tabe of contents internal link —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.95.8.144 (talk) 00:43, 2 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Is and  what you want? PrimeHunter (talk) 01:29, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Yes perfect thank you now to the other issue, why is "humour" considered its own section? it should flow with the other book topics, so thatthe table of contents matches it, instead of listing it as a seperate section of the page. (Studmuffin78 (talk) 06:08, 2 September 2009 (UTC))


 * Somebody fixed it here. PrimeHunter (talk) 11:28, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia irc
is there an off topic/general wikipedia irc channel? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Accdude92 (talk • contribs) 01:29, 2 September 2009 (UTC)


 * #wikipedia on Freenode fits your description exactly. Kind of scary, actually, how close it is to your description. Calvin 1998 (t·c) 01:43, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

image description page
Hi,

I need to update copyright info for several images. For that I am told to go to the image description page.

But I cannot find them ? - I know the names of the images, but where to go ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Allangam (talk • contribs) 07:08, 2 September 2009 (UTC)


 * The image description page file for Galina Shubina 1940s.jpg for example is File:Galina Shubina 1940s.jpg. —teb728 t c 07:18, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Can I change the Wikipedia skin I'm using myself?
I use the green text on black background option with the Monobook skin (I'm a beta user). Is there a way I can change the green text to white, for example? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ioannes Climacus (talk • contribs) 07:13, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, you can edit your own stylesheet (in your case, at User:Ioannes Climacus/monobook.css and change the appearance of text there. This needs to be done in CSS, you can find some help on that here: CSS. &mdash; QuantumEleven 10:55, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Question about the Triangle of Death
WHY IS IT THAT I CAN LOOK UP THE TRIANGLE OF DEATH AND IT SHOWS 172 AS OPERATING UNIT AFTER 101ST? 10TH MTN DIVISON (LI) ASSUMED CONTROL OF THE AREA AFTER 101ST. AND TOOK ABSOLUTE CONTROL OF THE AREA. WHY IS AN ENTIRE DIVISION NOT LISTED WITHIN THE UNIT LIST, BUT 172 IS? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.187.202.252 (talk) 07:23, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
 * This is actually the help desk to ask questions about using Wikipedia, not for information about other things! Also, please don't type in all-uppercase, it is considered to be shouting. However, I assume you are referring to Triangle_of_Death_(Iraq). If you have a query about that page, it is probably best to leave a message on the article's Talk Page. It would be best if you have some independent sources of information showing what you believe to be correct. --  Phantom Steve  ( Contact Me, My Contribs ) 07:29, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Incidently, the list of units operating in the ToD is not meant to be exhaustive - it says at the top of the list that the units operating there 'include' the listed ones. --  Phantom Steve  ( Contact Me, My Contribs ) 07:35, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Maybe the questioner is shouting because he's got incoming fire just now. --Teratornis (talk) 20:09, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Remove a question
I put a question on but did not log in first. I thought if you did this people can access your email directly. how do I remove a question asap? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Payneham (talk • contribs) 08:59, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
 * You don't actually need to remove a question. Unless you mention what it was, for the vast majority of editors on here, there is no way to link the user Payneham with a numerical IP address, so almost no one can work out what your question was! (Incidently, the exception to this are CheckUsers, who could identify your IP, but they wouldn't in this case, as it is not a case of ongoing vandalism). --  Phantom Steve  ( Contact Me, My Contribs ) 09:36, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
 * And no, they won't be able to access your email even if you didn't log in, unless you left your email in the message, in which case, well, it would be there for all the world to see whether you were logged in or not. Tim Song (talk) 09:46, 2 September 2009 (UTC)


 * If you make an edit without logging in then your IP address becomes visible, but it cannot be seen whether the owner of that IP address has a Wikipedia account (unless it can be guessed from the content of the edit). You can however request to have the edit and IP address removed from view at Requests for oversight. PrimeHunter (talk) 11:18, 2 September 2009 (UTC)


 * See WP:LOGGEDOUT for more information on editing while logged out. ---— Gadget850 (Ed)  talk 14:29, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Cluebot message
I recieved a message while browsing the site that an article I supposedly edited had been picked up by a 'cluebot' as being vandalism. The problem is this: I have never edited an article here, I don't even have a user account yet. How do I report this as a mistake? The instructions and links are too confusing on what I am supposd to do to fix this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.45.194.187 (talk) 09:15, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
 * The edit in question was made way back in 2007. You probably have a shared IP and the edit may have been made by somebody else. It's not a mistake on Cluebot's part, but you received a message intended for someone else. You can just ignore it; there's no need to worry about that message :) ≈ Chamal talk ¤ 09:32, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Howard joseland
I need to move Howard joseland to Howard Joseland, but there's no Move tab at the top of the page.

Hermione9753 (talk) 10:28, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
 * That's because your account isn't WP:AUTOCONFIRMED. I've moved it for you. Black Kite 10:33, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Help with an image
I've just uploaded the photograph below but don't know how to edit it so it is straight. Can anyone help please? I don't mind if it is cropped as long as none of the stained glass is cut off. Thanks. Stronach (talk) 10:50, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I'd recommend posting a request at Graphic Lab/Image workshop.  hmwith  t   12:48, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I've rotated and cropped it and uploaded it. Hope the new version is OK (you may need to refresh the image) - I've still got the original saved on disk if it's needed! --  Phantom Steve  ( Contact Me, My Contribs ) 13:02, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Fabulous! Thanks so much for your help, and so prompt too. Cheers Stronach (talk) 13:09, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
 * No problem - I learnt how to rotate and crop using the software on my machine, so thank you for the opportunity! --  Phantom Steve  ( Contact Me, My Contribs ) 13:11, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Creating a New Entry for Wikepedia
I just joined Wikepedia. If I find that there is something that I feel should be on Wikepedia but isn't how may I go about adding that subject to the data base? I've looked in the FAQ but I only seem to find tips on editing already existing articles.

Thank you! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jabodawe007 (talk • contribs) 11:33, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Before creating an article, please search Wikipedia first to make sure that an article does not already exist on the subject. Please also review a few of our relevant policies and guidelines with which all articles should comply. As Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, articles must not contain original research, must be written from a neutral point of view, should cite reliable sources which verify their content and must not contain unsourced, negative content about living people.
 * Before creating an article, please search Wikipedia first to make sure that an article does not already exist on the subject. Please also review a few of our relevant policies and guidelines with which all articles should comply. As Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, articles must not contain original research, must be written from a neutral point of view, should cite reliable sources which verify their content and must not contain unsourced, negative content about living people.


 * Articles must also demonstrate the notability of the subject. Please see our subject specific guidelines for people, bands and musicians, companies and organizations and web content and note that if you are closely associated with the subject, our conflict of interest guideline strongly recommends against you creating the article.


 * If you still think an article is appropriate, see Help:Starting a new page. You might also look at Your first article and How to write a great article for guidance, and please consider taking a tour through the Tutorial so that you know how to properly format the article before creation. ≈ Chamal talk ¤ 11:35, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I have left you a welcome message with some useful links. To create a new article, I would suggest that you read "How to write a great article". --  Phantom Steve  ( Contact Me, My Contribs ) 11:36, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Boilerplate for Files
Where can I find the boilerplate for files? You know, the page where I can add my text and the license. Debresser (talk) 11:34, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
 * There are many at Category:Non-free use rationale templates.  hmwith  t   12:45, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Which one was used to create File:Walking cane.jpg? Debresser (talk) 13:00, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Ohh, I see what you mean now. See Image copyright tags. The one used in that image is Non-free promotional.  hmwith  t   13:16, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
 * (e/c) I'm not 100% sure I know what you are looking for but that image was uploaded in the normal fashion and given the license Non-free promotional. To find that template giving the license text (which I guess could be described as boilerplate text; is that what you meant?), just click "edit this page" and see what's behind the read mode curtain.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 13:23, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I mean something like Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring/Example when you file a notice on ANI/Edit warring. The page that is used to actually make File:Walking cane.jpg. Debresser (talk) 15:06, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
 * The page automically creates itself when you upload the file, with all the sections intact. All you do is upload the file and add a license inside of he edit box at Special:Upload, and the new image's page will look just like that page. Is that what you mean? Does that answer your question?  hmwith  t   17:57, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
 * The page creates itself, yes. But where is the boilerplate that lays down the layout of that page when it is created? That is my question. Debresser (talk) 18:47, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Another was of putting it. I am looking for the page that is to files, as Template:Documentation/preload is to Template:Documentation. Debresser (talk) 18:50, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Well since no one has answered many hours after your clarification of the question, and though this is far, far from my areas of expertise, I'll just venture a guess that it's possible there is no equivalent, no boilerplate, but that its simply coded that way directly in the page source (right click on the page and choose view source). I could be laughably wrong but really I'm here to say that if you continue to stump the users here for a definitive answer, you might try asking at the village pump technical.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 23:58, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Ok. Asked there. And rephrased, based on this discussion. Thanks to all of you. Debresser (talk) 08:03, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

What Links here - filter problem?
When I'm looking at the "What links here" page for Alpha Phi Omega, I see a number of pages where the only link to Alpha Phi Omega on the page is from a template, for example Phi Beta where the only link to Alpha Phi Omega is in and Scouting in Kentucky where the only link to Alpha Phi Omega is in. It would seem to me that selecting the "Hide Transclusions" Filter should eliminate the entries such as Phi Beta and Scouting in Kentucky from the list, but it doesn't do so.

If this is in fact a bug, please let me know where to report it. If not, I'd like to know what "Hide Transclusions" is supposed to do (and maybe an example WhatLinkshere that changes with show/hide transclusions) and also where to suggest an additional Filter to What Links here that might get rid of the links which occur due to templates. (I've tried this both in Beta interface for wiki and outside of Beta interface for wiki). Perhaps this should be asked in a more technical forum, but I wanted to make sure whether it was a bug first.Naraht (talk) 13:32, 2 September 2009 (UTC)


 * "Hide transclusions" hides links to pages where the page itself is transcluded. It doesn't hide pages where a link to the page is part of a transcluded page. See for example Special:WhatLinksHere/Template:Scoutingportal, and see Help:What links here. Others have wished for a feature to remove pages where a link is transcluded. See 3241, 17728, and a recent discussion at Help talk:What links here Such a feature may be more complicated than it sounds if it should always be reliable. Some pages are built with non-trivial connections between page source and templates, for example through template parameters causing links which are neither in the source nor template. PrimeHunter (talk) 15:51, 2 September 2009 (UTC)


 * So, I'm not the first person to be confused by it and not even close to the first person to suggest that the capability that I desire would be a good thing. The discussion at Help talk:What links here explained it very well and I think I can contribute there as well as voting for the bugzilla bugs.Naraht (talk) 17:34, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

broken contents table on talk page
Hi, the talk Talk:Nuclear_magnetic_resonance does not have a contents for it. In addition, I see on in the HMTL, and it has test in it that is not on the page when I try to edit the discussion page. "NMR is a multiple Nobel-prize winning subject". What is going on? PDBailey (talk) 14:25, 2 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I have added code to force a TOC on that talk page. – ukexpat (talk) 15:08, 2 September 2009 (UTC)


 * The quoted text can be seen by clicking the "show" link in the box at the top. It is transcluded from Talk:Nuclear magnetic resonance/Comments. PrimeHunter (talk) 15:31, 2 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks! When I went back and clicked show, the TOC was also shown, but above the transcluded section. I removed the three equals header in that comment and that fixed the TOC (which does not need an explicit call anymore). This is broken behavior, how can I report it? PDBailey (talk) 18:25, 2 September 2009 (UTC)


 * It is not a bug. If there is no to force the position of the TOC then it's displayed before the first section heading, whether or not that section heading comes from a transcluded page. See more at Help:Section. There are many cases where editors want the TOC to be displayed before a transcluded section heading. The software cannot read the mind of editors and place the TOC where they prefer it when they don't use  . If a transcluded comments subpage contains unwanted section headings then they can be removed like you did in, or  can be added like in . The template documentation says this at Template:Physics. PrimeHunter (talk) 23:09, 2 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I am confused, how could placing a TOC inside a comments box possibly be (a) expected behavior, or (b) intended behavior? If a computer program does something that is not intended or expected I think it is called a bug, but maybe I'm crazy. PDBailey (talk) 04:25, 3 September 2009 (UTC)


 * A "comments box" is not a feature of the MediaWiki software. It is just a term sometimes used when describing the functionality of certain templates. In some cases editors deliberately want to hide the TOC by default, with a "show" link to display it. TOChidden is a template which can be used for this purpose, but there are other ways to do it. As I said: "The software cannot read the mind of editors and place the TOC where they prefer it when they don't use ". Human editors do all kinds of things with unintended consequences. If MediaWiki one day achieves artificial intelligence then maybe it can start trying to guess what editors really want instead of doing what their code says they want, but that's pretty complicated (and would cause other problems). PrimeHunter (talk) 12:42, 3 September 2009 (UTC)


 * PrimeHunter, The algorithm is currently this: (0) if there is a TOC tag, place TOC there, (1) otherwise, place TOC immediately before first section break. An algorithm that would work better (and require no mind reading). (0) if there is a TOC tag, place TOC there, (1) otherwise, place TOC immediately before first section break that is not in another container. No mind reading required. So, the and TOChidden both work as usual under rule zero, however rule 1 is updated to not place the TOC inside any other container because that is not expected behavior unless it is specially requested. PDBailey (talk) 15:26, 3 September 2009 (UTC)


 * It's not that simple to identify a relevant "container". MediaWiki is used by thousands of wikis with different templates and page designs. The TOC is often intentionally inside a table which may or may not be collapsed by default under different circumstances. Declaring something to be a "container" with special treatment of the TOC might break lots of existing page designs by moving the TOC around. And when the contents of a container is visible, it could be quite annoying if the TOC is displayed much later, after most of the sections it links to. Or should the TOC jump around on the page each time the user clicks show or hide or whatever functionality a given page in a given wiki has? And in addition to possibly complicated container-defining rules, there would also be a need for additional rules, such as what to do if all section headings are inside containers. Maybe the TOC should then go back to being placed before the first section heading of the first container. I prefer simpler rules that are easier to learn, and if they don't place the TOC where the users want then they can just control it with . But if you want to suggest a change to the MediaWiki software then you can do it at Bugzilla where the developers see it. PrimeHunter (talk) 20:26, 3 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Okay, thanks! PDBailey (talk) 06:24, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Second request re: Dominion Resources warning template
Two days ago I posted a request for advice about whether the Dominion Resources article is good enough to remove the warning tags placed on it a year ago. I have been working to improve it, and whomever did the tagging has long since dropped their interest in the article. Normally I would remove them myself, but as I have a potential conflict of interest with the article, I'd prefer to seek an uninvolved editor's advice first. Looking forward to assent or suggestions about what should be fixed before this happens. Thanks, NMS Bill (talk) 16:38, 2 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I'd say that you have done a pretty good job here. The only statements that stick out as being a little out of place are the last two in the Operations. The first involving planned air emission reduction seems a little too pro-company and possibly WP:Crystal and the second about Dominion Foundation *may* be out of place here, but I'm not sure. I'd like other comments.Naraht (talk) 18:07, 2 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks, Naraht. I hadn't touched those sections yet, but I agree they need work, and certainly need sources. I'll work on the article a bit more before bringing the question back here. Cheers, NMS Bill (talk) 11:56, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Brackets in external link
Hi Deskers! Anyone know how I would format an external link that contains square brackets in the URL? It seems to break the wikicode no matter how I try to format it. Thanks! Arakunem Talk 17:38, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
 * You could escape them: Algebraist 17:42, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
 * You'll need to use the HTML entities for those characters, namely, &amp;#91; and &amp;#93; (&#91; and &#93;). TN X Man  17:44, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Duplicate citations / Consolidation of citations
I have a question regarding citations. Let's see if I can explain adequately my quandry:

On a page I'm creating (currently in my "sandbox"), there are several passages in different locations on the page that will be citing the same reference. In an effort to be thorough I'm trying to make sure each statement requiring a citation is properly noted. The issue I have is that when you then look at my reference list - any citation being used more than once just repeats. It's redundant I think.

Is there a way to use the inline linking system in the text of a page in a fashion which will allow several citation links to refer to one citation in the reference list rather than have one citation duplicated over and over again?

Does this make sense? I look forward to any assistance with this.

Thanks!

Etrangere (talk) 17:57, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Short answer, yes, this issue has been discussed extensively recently. I'll return shortly with links. SPhilbrick  T  18:00, 2 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Yep, you just use (abc being whatever you want to name it) in front of the first instance (instead of just ). Then, for all other uses, just use without any other information whatsoever. See WP:REFNAME for more info.   hmwith  t   18:02, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
 * See Hazel Walker or nitrogen Narcosis for examples. SPhilbrick  T  18:17, 2 September 2009 (UTC)


 * That was really helpful - I've completed the consolidation. Thanks

Etrangere (talk) 23:15, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Printing of Wikipedia
I have never been able print your subject matter. Is that because legal reasona or what? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.185.237.49 (talk) 18:08, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
 * There are a number of possible reasons you might have failed to print Wikipedia content, but legalities are not among them. Algebraist 18:11, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Please tell us which article(s) you'd like to print, which operating system you're using (e.g. OSX, Vista, Ubuntu), and which browser you're using (e.g. Firefox 3.5, IE6, Safari). That'll help us try to diagnose the problem. --AndrewHowse (talk) 19:53, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
 * This might be better handled here. ƒ(Δ)² 18:00, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

my page still not up
Hi

I registered last week (more than 4 days ago)

Created a page called Outlet Property Services but when I do a search, it does not appear.

Please let me know what the problem is.

thanks

Mark GraindorgeMarkG 18:14, 2 September 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Markgraindorge (talk • contribs) 14:14, 2 September 2009
 * Your contributions show that you edited a user subpage: User:Markgraindorge/Outlet Property Services. See Help:User page, Help:Subpage, Help:Namespace, and WP:WIAA to learn about the difference between user pages and articles. Your subpage needs more work before it would be advisable to move it to the article space where hungry deletionists prowl. See WP:WWMPD. It was actually smart of you to start the article as a user subpage, where you can work on it before throwing it to the wolves. --Teratornis (talk) 19:58, 2 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Hi, It appears that you created a user subpage rather than a mainspace article. That's a good way of dong it, because you can then get some advice without risking outright deletion. Your work is at User:Markgraindorge/Outlet Property Services and it isn't ready to be published. You need to establish notability. It also looks a bit too self-promotional as yet. For example, "The company is always expanding its service offerings and enhancing its website" is not what we would consider to be neutral. Please come back here if you have more questions. --AndrewHowse (talk) 19:58, 2 September 2009 (UTC)


 * See WP:LAYOUT, WP:WIKIFY, WP:BFAQ, WP:PEACOCK, WP:FOOT, WP:CITE, and WP:YFA. It also helps to look at some articles that the Wikipedia community has judged to be of our highest quality: WP:FA and WP:GA. The more you can make your article resemble those articles, the less likely your article is to get deleted. Note that trying to write whole new articles from scratch as your first attempt at Wikipedia editing is one of the hardest ways to get started on Wikipedia. It's normally better to make several hundred small edits to existing articles first, see how other editors react to your edits, and read the friendly manuals to understand each thing you try. Writing complete articles from scratch requires an editor to know many different things about Wikipedia editing which are hard to learn all at once. --Teratornis (talk) 20:06, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Copyright center
I have been referred to the Copyright Center to get permission to copy an article in a publication. I get your definition and legal reference, but no link to actually request permission to use. How do I get to the resource I need when the company has obviously contracted with Copyright center to cover copyright permission? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.17.114.186 (talk) 18:23, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
 * You have been referred by what or by whom? Please be specific. Are you looking at a page of instructions, and if so, will you give us a link to it? What article do you want to copy, and in what publication? There are a million ways to interpret your vague question. The phrase "Copyright Center" does not show up in a in a way that would make sense in light of your question. Are you asking about an article on Wikipedia, or are you confusing us with another organization described in one of our articles? --Teratornis (talk) 19:49, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Searching sorted by date
Can I search the reference desk archives with the results sorted by most recent first? What are the results sorted by? 81.131.13.145 (talk) 18:25, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't know of a way, but if you want to see recent results, sometimes adding the current year to your search terms (2009) can help. This won't restrict the results to the current year, but considering that "2009" will appear many times on a reference desk archive page that is from 2009, such pages will tend to move up in the search results. This may or may not be useful, depending on the type of search you do. In general, search engines rarely do what you want. --Teratornis (talk) 19:44, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Cunning! That worked very well. 81.131.13.145 (talk) 19:48, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I guess this was one of those rare instances. --Teratornis (talk) 19:50, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

unable to edit a bio
Hello,

I am a new Wikipedia user trying to edit a Wikipedia entry on a person. The information in the bio is incomplete, and inaccurate. There is no button for the top biographic portion of the entry. I noticed that is the case on all of the other people entries I've searched. If someone could please explain how to edit a bio, it would be appreciated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sbarie (talk • contribs) 18:37, 2 September 2009


 * in addition to the "edit" buttons at the top of each section, there's an "edit this page" tab at the very top of the page that gives you access to the whole article. i've posted some links on your talk page that you should find helpful to get you started editing ... if it's the biography of a living person, you may want to read WP:BLP first. Sssoul (talk) 18:46, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
 * This is the second person to be confused about this in two days. We should make the Lead Section Edit gadget default. occono (talk) 22:24, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Can someone fix PER
The Player Efficiency Rating (PER) article is elongated horizontally because of the math formula under the #calculation section. Is there anyway to make the formula wrap and fit on 2 or 3 lines to prevent stretching out the page? -- GateKeeper(X) @ 23:09, 2 September 2009 (UTC)


 * See Help:Displaying a formula; looks like the only way is to break it into separate lines. ---— Gadget850 (Ed)  talk 23:37, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

ParserFunction math
I'm trying to make a countdown clock for Portal:Christmas/Clock. I know  will tell me how many days are left, but is there any way to include hour/minute/second as well? – Juliancolton  &#124; Talk 23:11, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I just wrote this from scratch, but it seems to be working. First time doing this, so maybe there's a bug in there somewhere. . Tim Song (talk) 03:05, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Demonstration is here. Tim Song (talk) 03:07, 3 September 2009 (UTC)