Wikipedia:Help desk/Archives/2010 January 21

= January 21 =

Permission to use image
Dear Sir/Madam,

i have found an image on wikipedia that i wish to use. It will be inserted into a document that is being issued to a client. I would like to verify that there is no copyright protection on this image and i have permission to use it.

The image can be found here en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duncan_Dam

Please contact me at regarding this matter

Many thanks

Michelle Mottram —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.139.224.91 (talk) 00:19, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
 * [[Image:AROBAZE.png|20px]] Please do not include contact details in your questions. We are unable to provide answers by any off-wiki medium and this page is highly visible across the internet.  The details have been removed, but if you wish for them to be permanently removed from the page history, email [mailto:oversight-l@lists.wikimedia.org this address].
 * You can click the image in Duncan Dam to get to the file information page File:DuncanDamPic.JPG. The description on that page says the image has been released into the public domain by the author, which means it can be used for any purpose without requiring permission or attribution.  Please read Reusing Wikipedia content for more information on the policy about reusing images found on Wikipedia.  --Mysdaao talk 00:30, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

article writing wizard
I started an article using the Wizard and saved it for further work but do not know how to access it again for further work. (I tried IRC Chat and someone there responded but when I tried to type my reply the page did not register any keystrokes, so I guess I need help learning to use IRC chat as well.)Eradc8Hngr (talk) 01:26, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Your contributions show that you haven't created any articles or article drafts, so your work wasn't saved. When creating a page or making any edits, nothing is saved until you press "Save page".  You may have pushed "Show preview" which will show you what the page will look like without saving.  --Mysdaao talk 02:01, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Page mimicking Wikipedia
While surfing, I came upon a page that looked exactly like a Wikipedia article. It promoted a certain political program and a definite point of view. It took me a while to realize that it was not part of Wikipedia, but was intended to look exactly like Wikipedia (presumably in order to give more authority to what it contained). I was wondering if this raised a legal issue. Is the Wikipedia "look" legally protected? Is Wikipedia able to take action against those try to mimic Wikipedia?

If this is not the right place to address this question, please direct it to the appropriate location. 173.206.152.45 (talk) 01:29, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
 * See WP:MIRROR. Simply south (talk) 01:32, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
 * The page referred to above is not a mirror. It does not contain content taken from Wikipedia. It's only the look that is similar. 173.206.140.67 (talk) 16:04, 21 January 2010 (UTC)


 * It may also be worth noting that there are many many wikis that have been created using MediaWiki, the software that Wikipedia runs on, that look just like Wikipedia by default. Nanonic (talk) 01:50, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Some of these include Uncyclopedia, Wookipedia, Greenlivingpedia, etc, etc. Nick carson (talk) 08:58, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
 * While the page referred to above was probably created using MediaWiki, it does not claim to be a Wiki. The words Wiki or pedia are not part of the name and appear nowhere. The content seems to have been written by a single person, and no one else may edit it. It's a site dedicated to defending a single point of view, but looks like a Wiki. My question is whether this somehow infringes the legal rights of Wikipedia or Mediawiki or Wikia. 173.206.140.67 (talk) 16:04, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I would have to say no. As long as it is not claiming to be something it is not, then nothing is wrong. If it's claiming to be Wikipedia by using the Wikipedia logo though, that is a different matter. As is stands the CSS etc are all GPL'd. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Arenlor (talk • contribs) 02:21, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Linking where a page does not exist
I understand from a previous Help Desk discussion Linking where a page does not exist that if, hypothetically, an article mentions Elfin MR5 and there is no page with that name but it is included on the Elfin Sports Cars page, I should link as Elfin MR5 rather than as Elfin MR5. As I’m finding myself in conflict with other editors by following this advice, can you give me a Help page reference which covers this situation please? GTHO (talk) 02:07, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
 * WP:EGG, a result of the principle of least astonishment, should cover it. Liquidluck ✽ talk  02:41, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Many Wikipedia editors believe it best to post a link such as Elfin MR5. This is known as "seeding" a link and facilitates the creation of the new article. Nick carson (talk) 08:57, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Garnett Rocchi
Resolved What should I do with this article? I can't find any particularly reliable source, but I don't want to just put the baby down the drain with the bathwater. Thanks. — Ecw.Technoid.Dweeb  | contributions | talk | ☮✌☮ 02:27, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Thank you for bringing the article to the attention of this page. It should be immediately nominated for speedy deletion under CSD G10, as a page that (1) is about a person, (2) contains only negative information about its subject, and (3) is entirely unsourced or dubiously sourced. Xenon54 / talk / 02:35, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

password not logging on & reset not working
my user name is DrofMusic but i can't continue to edit my page & password resedt does not send email to me. my page may have been hijacked —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.112.161.177 (talk) 02:35, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
 * By "my page", I assume you mean your userpage at User:DrofMusic. You probably haven't been hacked. If you associated an e-mail address with your account during the time when you had access to it, then you should get a password reset e-mail. Put your username in the box at Special:Userlogin, click "E-mail new password", and be sure to check your spam folder. If you didn't associate an e-mail address with your account, or you don't have access to the e-mail address anymore, you are unfortunately out of luck, as you are the only person who can reset your password. If this is the case then the only course of action is to register a new account. Xenon54 / talk / 02:50, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

"Worst/Best Person in the World" references
I note that a user has added a paragraph to the article Wendell Goler describing why he was recently mentioned as a Keith Olberman "Worst Person in the World." My question is not directed toward any political viewpoint; only whether it is encyclopedic to add such references (or for that matter, to Olberman's "Best Person in the World") to a Wikipedia biography? In this case it it makes up more text than the bio (and BTW is also not cited with a footnote). Thank you. RadioBroadcast (talk) 03:09, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Please take this up at WP:BLPN. LeadSongDog come howl  05:07, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I've removed it. Olberman's "award" is non-notable.  It's a single mention on one program and trivial.  If this award were to gain a wider audience by being reported on in the media, I could see its inclusion.  But as it is (was), it's cruft.  Dismas |(talk) 05:09, 21 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Despite reliable sources, there is no best or worst person in the world and inclusion of such dubious claims in an encyclopedia would compromise it's truthful value in reality. Nick carson (talk) 08:53, 21 January 2010 (UTC)


 * I thank all respondents. RadioBroadcast (talk) 13:16, 21 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Olberman names a different Worst Person in the World on every one of his broadcasts (though some get named more than once), it's not like Goler is the only person to get that dubious honor. Woogee (talk) 21:35, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

List of editors with access to references?
A while back, I saw a page here that allowed people to list what reference sources that they had easily available to them. This was to help people with fact checking. Basically you could find someone who had the book or newspaper that you needed and ask them to look something up. I'd like to find that page again but I can't. Does this sound familiar to anyone?

My eventual goal is to find someone with access to an obituary circa 1997. It would likely have been in a California newspaper. I'm trying to confirm the date of death of Merle Pertile.

Thanks, Dismas |(talk) 04:15, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
 * You must be thinking of the WP:LIBRARY. A quick search through my own library e-thingie didn't turn anything up, but other people there may be more resourceful. Franamax (talk) 09:19, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks! Dismas |(talk) 03:53, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Company Information
If you are starting a company, is it okay to post information on wikipedia with no website to refer to yet? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.220.5.106 (talk) 05:05, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Unlikely until someone else reliable has published about the company. See WP:CORP. LeadSongDog come howl  05:10, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
 * No. The company would likely not meet any of the notability standards put forth in WP:CORP.  Dismas |(talk) 05:10, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I would suggest forgetting about contributing information pertaining to a company on Wikipedia unless, as stated above, someone else has written of notable subject matter in regards to the company. Nick carson (talk) 08:50, 21 January 2010 (UTC)


 * You could list it at WikiCompany. – ukexpat (talk) 15:44, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

View and Delete "Subpages" on User Page
Is there a way to see what "subpages" you have on your own user page? (e.g. forgotten ones etc) Is there a way delete old unused "subpages" you have on your own user page.?

Thanks

North8000 (talk) 12:04, 21 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes to both, using Special pages you can find all pages beginning with a prefix - in this case your username. By doing this you'll get a page of all your user subpages like this. To request them to be deleted add to the ones you want erased. Nanonic (talk) 12:19, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Note also to do a prefix search of the User talk namespace as well, just in case there are any laying unused there too. Nanonic (talk) 12:20, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Thanks North8000 (talk) 12:28, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Also, if you click on "My contributions" in the top right-hand corner of any page, there is a link to your subpages at the bottom of that page. -- Beloved Freak  12:51, 21 January 2010 (UTC)


 * And piling on with the advice, on your user page you should see a "subpages" link in the toolbox on the left-hand side. – ukexpat (talk) 15:46, 21 January 2010 (UTC)


 * You only get the subpages link in the left toolbar if you have this in your JS:


 * ---— Gadget850 (Ed)  talk 20:48, 21 January 2010 (UTC)


 * As for deleting unwanted one, just ad db-user and someone will delete them within the course of a few hours. BencherliteTalk 21:42, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
 * If you want to display your user subpages on your user page all the time, use the List subpages template, for example: . --Teratornis (talk) 04:38, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Twelve Tribes of Israel?
Why aren't all symbols of the 12 Tribes of Israel shown? Missing are Gad, Asher, Zebulon & Joseph.

Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.194.118.10 (talk) 13:59, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Do you mean the sumbols shown at the individual pages (Asher, etc)? or somewhere else? If you tell us the article(s) you are referring to (just use  - for example,   would give Asher. That will help us - however if you are referring to those, Gad (Bible) does have a symbol, Asher doesn't (but one appear to be available from the same source as the Gad article image), Zebulun likewise has none, but one appears to be available, and Joseph (Bible) has another image, but one appears to be available. If these are indeed what you are meaning, let us know - someone can probably use the images at commons:Category:Tribes_of_Israel. If you mean elsewhere, let us know that as well! --  Phantom Steve / talk &#124; contribs \ 14:17, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

USS Louisville CA 28
Please note that the nickname you listed for the USS Louisville CA 28 is incorrect.

The nickname should be Lady Lou -not Lucky Lou.

Thank you!

My dad was on the USS Louisville from 1943-46.

Tony Trotta —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.238.31.183 (talk • contribs) 14:21, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Please sign your post by typing four tildes ( ~ ) or clicking the signature button above the edit box which looks like this: [[Image:Signature_icon.png]]. Do NOT sign in articles.
 * Do you have a reliable source for this information? The Wikipedia policy at Verifiability is that content must be verifiable, and saying your father was on the ship is not sufficient.  Anyone can edit the article USS Louisville (CA-28), so if you have a reference for this, you can make the change yourself by pressing the "edit this page" tab at the top of the article.  --Mysdaao talk 14:37, 21 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Presumably whoever wrote "Lucky Lou" also had no reference. If so.......  Unless there were two nicknames, this might be an uncontested correction.  If you don't have a reference, you might say something on the talk page of the article and if there is no objection just change it in the article. North8000 (talk) 14:47, 21 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Thank you for your suggestion for improving the article about USS Louisville (CA-28). The best place to discuss this would be on the article's talk page here. Please leave your message there, along with a reliable source for the information. Unsourced information is unlikely to be added, and as I'm sure you can appreciate it, we can't just accept "My dad said so", much as we would like to! Lucky Lou seems to have also been the nickname for the USS St Louis (see here) but I can't find anything confirming (in an admittedly quick search) that Lady Lou was the nickname for USS Louisville. --  Phantom Steve / talk &#124; contribs \ 14:47, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

emaul id expiry
i am user khanalsar, i have been using and editing wikipedia for 6 yrs. but my old email id had expired in an unknown date and i cannot login by my established old name. how can i continue using it?14:21, 21 January 2010 (UTC)khanalsar —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.70.79.10 (talk)
 * Wikipedia accounts are never deleted, so your account still exists. Are you saying you can't log in because you forgot your password?  If this is the case, and you don't have access to the e-mail address associated with the account, then there is no way to retrieve the password.  Your only options would be to create a new account or try to usurp the account at Changing username/Usurpations.  --Mysdaao talk 14:27, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Is there any accountability for large scale blocks?
I have a reputable internet provider at home, and starting about 2 months ago I noticed that my home internet is the victim of a three month block of 20 IP addresses. Presumably these are static addresses of the provider, which means that somebody blocked thousands of people for three months from obtaining Wikipedia accounts, editing etc.. (unless they had an account prior ot the block) It just gave one vague phrase ("sockpuppet investigation") I'm assuming that this means that the blocker suspects one of those thousands of people of having 2 Wikipedia accounts. Most would call that a poor or incorrect decision. But they did not even explain that. And, of course, anyone seeing that block message can't even contact the blocker, because writing on the blocker's pager is also blocked. (And anyone who had an account from before the block would not see the message.)     Is there any accountability for such large scale blocks (include getting them explained beyond that one vague phrase)  or to get them reviewed? 75.24.138.102 (talk) 14:34, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

75.24.138.102 (talk) 14:34, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes there is .Add an unblock request to your IPs talk page--123.237.193.11 (talk) 14:44, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Other options include creating an account, or hunting down your neighbor who vandalized Wikipedia and expressing your feelings to him. In a strictly nonviolent way. --Teratornis (talk) 20:14, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

help with bot
I have tried to ad the cluebot 3 to my talkpage: but the previous archive index vanishes. "No archives yet" --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 15:03, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
 * ClueBot doesn't know about old archive pages. It creates its own index page for archives it creates like these.  If ClueBot archives threads from your talk page, it will manually add the archive page it uses to the index page it creates for you, but it won't find any other archive pages.  You can instead use  or  to list archive pages.  --Mysdaao talk 16:39, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

wiki and e readers
I will soon buy an e reader and I like Kindle so far because it offers Wikipedia. (But I dislike Kindle because of Amazon's efforts to monopolize the market by limiting where I may buy books.) Do any other e readers offer Wiki? By application perhaps? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.144.29.117 (talk) 15:48, 21 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Not sure if this deals directly with your question, but any mobile device with a browser can access a slimmed down, mobile version of Wikipedia at http://en.m.wikipedia.org/ or http://en.mobile.wikipedia.org/ . See WP:Mobile access for details. – ukexpat (talk) 16:07, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Primary Colors
Really I am in a great confusion that what are the real primary colours.here the information is given that the primary colours are RED,BLUE & GREEN (RBG).I am not getting how is it possible for green to be a primary colour as it can be obtained by mixing YELLOW & BLUE. Try it by yourself.From long before I am having the information of RED,BLUE & YELLOW (RBY) to be the primary colours. So really it's really too much important to know about the name of actual primary colours in one word .And again I am not getting any practical reason of GREEN to be a Primary colour...Please respond quickly... --Isratalo (talk) 15:53, 21 January 2010 (UTC)israt alo
 * Hello. I suspect, based on your question, that you found one of our roughly three million articles, and thought that we were directly affiliated in some way with that subject. Please note that you are at Wikipedia, the free online encyclopedia that anyone can edit, and this page is a help desk for asking questions related to using the encyclopedia. Thus, we have no inside track on the subject of your question. You can, however, search our vast catalogue of articles by typing a subject into the search field on the left hand side of your screen. If you cannot find what you are looking for, we have a reference desk, divided into various subject areas, where asking knowledge questions is welcome. Best of luck. TN X Man  15:56, 21 January 2010 (UTC)


 * I suggest you read RGB color model, RYB color model, Additive color, Subtractive color, and our articles on please and thank you. Gandalf61 (talk) 16:01, 21 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Or please even. – ukexpat (talk) 16:10, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Edits Not Showing In Article
Hello, Can you explain why my deits do not show up in tghe article? I make the changes,preview and save them, and nothing appears. Thanks, BillGofer246 (talk) 16:09, 21 January 2010 (UTC)


 * They have been reverted as link spam. – ukexpat (talk) 16:12, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Sandbox coding
How do I code a Sandbox so that the page is automatically cleaned every 12 hours? LycoHist210 (talk) 19:09, 21 January 2010 (UTC)


 * I am guessing that you would have to request that the same bot that cleans out WP:SANDBOX cleans out your user sandbox. Not sure which bot does it, so that's as far as I can help... – ukexpat (talk) 19:42, 21 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia sandboxes are cleaned by bots, automated tools programmed to do specific tasks, like User:SoxBot. User sandboxes, like the one you created at User:LycoHist210/Sandbox are generally only used by one user (because each user account can only be used by one individual) so there has not been a need to have a user sandbox cleaned automatically.  --Mysdaao talk 19:52, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Please be more specific. Where do you want to create a sandbox? Why do you need it automatically blanked every 12 hours? Your request is hard to make sense of. For more information about bots on Wikipedia, see the links under WP:EIW. --Teratornis (talk) 20:18, 21 January 2010 (UTC)


 * I am trying to create a Sandbox for a university project. (My students will be contributing to Wikipedia as an assignment this semester.)  I want the students to be able to experiment in "our own" Sandbox before they start making any changes to Wikipedia.  I can manually go in to revert the Sandbox to its original state, but an automated clean up would be preferable.LycoHist210 (talk) 14:25, 22 January 2010 (UTC)
 * See User:Teratornis/Tips for teachers, WP:EIW, and School and university projects. Wikipedia may not be the ideal platform for a class with students who have no prior wiki editing experience. Teaching students wiki editing by editing on Wikipedia is something like training airplane mechanics on an airplane that is actually flying. A safer option would be to set up your own school wiki, but you might need help to do that if you do not have system administrator skills, because setting up a wiki is technically demanding. See for example a pretty nice one at UMassWiki. Does your university have a computer science department? Could you persuade that department to set up one or more MediaWiki wikis for school use? Are you in a city that has a City wiki? What is your area of study? Perhaps you can find another wiki that caters specifically to your subject, which would spare your students having to run the gauntlet of Wikipedia's deletionists and the content restrictions here. See Deletionpedia, where inappropriate Wikipedia articles go to die. --Teratornis (talk) 20:46, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Commons linking
How do i link pages on commons to articles on the English Wikipedia through blah ? Simply south (talk) 19:44, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Use commons:Blah which creates commons:Blah. You can also pipe the link as would any other, such as using Blah to create Blah.  See Help:Interwiki linking for more details.  --Mysdaao talk 19:57, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I apologize because I misunderstood the question. My answer was for linking from the English Wikipedia to Commons.  You want the other way around.  Just replace commons in my answer with en.  --Mysdaao talk 20:00, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Also see Help:Interwiki linking, Help:Interlanguage links, and the interwiki templates: Commons and Commons category. For example, see how these two pages link to each other:
 * Wind power in Ohio - has a Commons category template at the bottom, linking to the category on Commons with the same name.
 * Commons:Category:Wind power in Ohio - has an interlanguage link to the above article
 * See my reply to this question on the Commons Help desk:
 * Commons:COM:HD (permanent link)
 * --Teratornis (talk) 20:27, 21 January 2010 (UTC)


 * For an example, take a look at the description field of an image I just uploaded to Commons: File:Jesus-in-Jeans-by-Peter-Royle.jpg. If you view the page in edit mode, you can see the interwiki link code etc. – ukexpat (talk) 20:53, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Thank you all. Simply south (talk) 21:24, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Getting a page
Hello,

When you search something on yahoo or google you get a wikipedia page popping up once in a while. I have found some of my friend's have bands and businesses that are listed on wikipedia. I would like a detailed encyclopedia article on my photography business. How do I make this happen? Thanks,

Eric Hintzsche ae photography —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aephoto (talk • contribs) 20:23, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
 * If your company was notable enough to satisfy Wikipedia's inclusion guidelines, it's likely your company would have one already. You wouldn't write the article because you have a conflict of interest. See also the Business FAQ. Xenon54 / talk / 20:27, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
 * You can list your company on Wikicompany regardless of its notability. Also look for a City wiki in your town or wherever you do business. City wikis, unlike Wikipedia, aim for the most complete coverage possible of subjects in their geographic areas, and would probably be more likely to attract readers you could do business with. --Teratornis (talk) 20:31, 21 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Your friends' bands and businesses might be notable enough - have been covered in multiple independent reliable sources. Alternatively, they do not meet Wikipedia's notability criteria, but nobody has got round to deleting them - yet. --ColinFine (talk) 22:55, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Warn/temp block a page or user
I noticed a situation and I'm not sure what to do about it:

An editor has been editing a particular page a few times a minute for the past hour and change - it's not really vandalism as only 1 byte of spacing is being changed each time (as far as I can tell). Is there anything that another editor or an admin can/should do in this situation? VernoWhitney (talk) 21:29, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
 * It is disruptive and therefore considered to be vandalism, so warnings to that effect should be issued, then the user should be reported to Administrator intervention against vandalism if he doesn't stop after a "last warning". Fortunately, Tnxman307, a Help Desk regular and administrator, has taken care of the problem (for now) with a 3-hour block - but if the user comes back in a few hours and does it again, definitely start to warn him. (You don't have to start with a level 1 warning, either. Especially since he's already been blocked, it would probably be best in this situation to skip all the way to level 4im, a "first and only warning".) Xenon54 / talk / 21:46, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Template or markup to completely hide text
Is there a template, wiki markup, or other trick to hiding any text that appears below? I'm not looking for a collapse box that the reader can uncollapse, I'm looking for a version that makes it invisible and unviewable by the editor, yet leaves it in the page should people want to edit it. I was thinking of trying to force things into a comment, but I couldn't figure out how to set a template that would correctly transclude the comment markup (i.e. <!-- ) onto a page. Thanks, - Wikidemon (talk) 22:45, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
 * One way is that used by copyvio: end the template with an unclosed . Algebraist 22:50, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks! Yes, I'll try that.  It's for a similar purpose, hiding without deleting unsourced BLP material until people have a chance to check it out.  - Wikidemon (talk) 23:04, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
 * In that case, you might do well to copy further and add an id to your div, say  . That way, people who want to check it out can use personal CSS to make it appear in the article without having to check the edit page. Algebraist 23:11, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

suggesting deletions
How do I "properly" initiate a discussion if a page should be deleted or remain there? It's about the redirects high diving and cliff diving. I attempted to initiate that discussion by suggesting them for deletion, but now someone else simply wrote something on the discussion page (with which I disagree), deleted the deletion requests, and now we're back to the previous state. So now I know there's one Wikipedian who opposes the deletion, and I'm another who supports it. Very irrelevant... So I'm back with the question how to "properly" initiate that discussion. Thanks, Ibn Battuta (talk) 23:07, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
 * The best way to bring up a redirect is to use (see redirects for discussion). This will allow more people to see and comment on your proposal.  TN X Man  23:10, 21 January 2010 (UTC)