Wikipedia:Help desk/Archives/2010 July 21

= July 21 =

Translate to English
can someone help me to translate my project in english please..."Noong hindi ko pa kilala si Hesus bilang tagapagligtas ng buhay ko ako ay palaaway at devoted sa mga santo at sila ang aking tagapagligtas, para sa akin ang aklat ay para sa mga taong kampon ng diyablo, kapag nakakakita ako ng taong may dalang bible tinataguan ko sila sapagkat ang alam ko sila ay papunta sa impyerno. ganon ang buhay ko noon. purihin ang Diyos at nakilala ko sya bilang tagapagligtas ng aking buhay. dating masama pero ngayon ay binago niya ang buhay ko at tinawag upang magbahagi ng salita ng Diyos sa mga taong nangangailangan ng kaligtasan. napasarap palang maging anak ng Diyos may kapayapaan at tiyak pa ang kaligtasan. tinawag niya ako. purihin ang Diyos na buhay. sa kanila po ng aming pagsubok masaya pa rin po naming naibabahagi ang salita ng Diyos napatunayan ko din na ang Diyos ay nanatiling tapat at biyaya niya ay sapat sa amin. sa ngayon ay may maliit kami na simabahan kasama ang mga myembro na masayang naglilingkod" —Preceding unsigned comment added by Joannedaze (talk • contribs) 00:32, 21 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Symbol_move_vote.svg Have you tried the section of Wikipedia's Reference Desk? They specialize in answering knowledge questions there; this help desk is only for questions about using Wikipedia.  For your convenience, here is the link to post a question there: [ click here] . I hope this helps. PrimeHunter (talk) 00:41, 21 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia isn't really a translation service. However, there is a free translation service that Google runs, which automatically detects a language. Use it instead. A p 3 rson  ‽   00:53, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Requesting closure
Where is the best place to request a closure of a merge discussion? (located at Talk:Jack Conte)  Jujutacular  T · C 01:05, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Audio book of How to win friends and influance people.
Do we have Audio book of How to win friends and influance people.

if yes, then please provide me a details, like Price and how to place the order and other details.

From :   —Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.254.30.79 (talk) 01:36, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Hello. I suspect, based on your question, that you found one of our over three million articles, and thought that we were directly affiliated in some way with that subject. Please note that you are at Wikipedia, the free online encyclopedia that anyone can edit, and this page is a help desk for asking questions related to using the encyclopedia. Thus, we have no inside track on the subject of your question. You can, however, search our vast catalogue of articles by typing a subject into the search field on the upper right side of your screen. If you cannot find what you are looking for, we have a reference desk, divided into various subject areas, where asking knowledge questions is welcome. Best of luck. Calvin 1998 (t·c) 01:51, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
 * You could also try looking on one of Wikipedia's Sister projects. I think that one of the other "reading material" wikis contains some audiobooks. Hmmwhatsthisdo (talk) 03:38, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Question about a topic-banned user
There is a user (whom I'm not going to mention by name just yet) who is currently topic-banned from making edits broadly related to race, ethnicity, and religion. Thing is, in the past few days he has made quite a few edits to Talk: The Black Book, which is the discussion page for an article about the Nazis. One of these edits specifically mentions the words "jews" and "freemasons" (without capitalization). While "Nazi" isn't a race, ethnicity, or religion per se, the Nazis are primarily known and are notorious for their racial and ethnic ideology. So, I'm not sure whether this user is acting in violation of his topic ban by making Nazi-related edits; is he? If the answer turns out to be "yes", then I will provide diffs of his edits and a link to his talk page so that further action can be taken. However I'm not going to mention him by name right off the bat because I don't want to embarrass him if he hasn't been doing anything wrong. Stonemason89 (talk) 01:47, 21 July 2010 (UTC)


 * It's difficult to say without knowing more about the scenario, but I appreciate why you don't want to reveal too much information here, and commend you for your approach. Whether The Black Book should be regarded as "broadly related to race, ethnicity or religion" is perhaps a judgement call – I'd been inclined to say that it is for the reasons you mention, but have little doubt that other editors could put forward a good opposing argument.  It might not be relevant, however.  What was the scope of this topic ban? A topic ban can apply to article space, article and talk space, or the entire project. If this ban does not cover talk pages, then he is of course not in violation.  AJ  Cham  02:01, 21 July 2010 (UTC)


 * From the Editing Restrictions page: "XXXXXXX is banned from editing any article, including talk pages, broadly related to race, ethnicity or religion for a period of 6 months. Any violations of this topic ban may be met by rapidly increasing blocks from any administrator, up to and including an indefinite block." So yes, it does apply to talk pages. The reason why he was topic-banned in the first place was because of his tendency to push far-right (white nationalist) POV, as well as his behavior toward other editors who reverted his edits. Stonemason89 (talk) 02:19, 21 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Well, in that case I would say yes; in my opinon he is in violation of his topic ban. However, as we've already said, it is potentially borderline. As such I would personally feel it inappropriate to act too strictly in response, unless there is strong indication that he is deliberately flouting the ban, rather than making an honest attempt to adhere to it. The better option may be to politely note on his talk page that The Black Book is within the scope of the ban (that is, assuming others agree with my evaluation) and that he should refrain from participating there immediately. Doing my very best to avoid letting personal feelings get in the way of fair and neutral comment – didn't realise how tricky that can be. For what it's worth, the edit that is in question here does not appear to be the kind of POV-pushing that got him banned.  AJ  Cham  02:43, 21 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure I should be the one to warn himself, though, since I've gotten into arguments with him before and he really doesn't like me; thus, if I post the warning on his talk page it will just provoke him further. Stonemason89 (talk) 16:53, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Link to closed deletion discussion
I have placed the AfD template on the article, but is there a way to link it to the closed discussion? Pkeets (talk) 02:16, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
 * From WP:AFD: If the article has been nominated before, use  instead of , and replace "PageName" with the name of the page plus  a note like "(second nomination)" for a second nomination, etc. See Template talk:Afdx for details.  Dismas |(talk) 02:24, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
 * The AfD page is linked on its talk page -->Talk:Masami Tsuruoka so before someone would nominate it again they would see it and hopefully think twice.Moxy (talk) 02:51, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Reference upload?
Sorry to bother you but I have been asked to place a reference to out Lions Club on the wikipedia web site I have created the content and saved it(to where I have not idea)it has not appeared on the site I wanted it to in fact on no site: so I must have done something wrong, perhaps you could steer me in the right direction:Northlfeet & Ebbsfleet Lions Club; I want my content to go into the Northfleet section where there is a reference to Northfleet Rotary club. can you please assist me? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Northfleet & Ebbsfleet Lions Club (talk • contribs) 09:11, 21 July 2010 (UTC)


 * The info you created is on your user page. Unfortunatley, your user name is in breach of WP:ORGNAME, and indicates that there is a conflict of interest between yourself and the Lions club. A mention of the Lions Club is probably justified in the Northfleet article, but it is unlikely that the club warrants a stand-alone article per WP:CORP. Mjroots (talk) 11:13, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

copyright
I have taken my bio from my website to put it on wikipedia...this is also part of my books, how can I keep it there?...it is certainy not an infringement —Preceding unsigned comment added by Musicvisions (talk • contribs)


 * Note above added by and refers to the Miriam Jaskierowicz Arman article. This article was apparently created by the subject of the article. Mjroots (talk) 11:08, 21 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Since permission is claimed, CSD G12 no longer applies and I have sent the article instead to review by copyright problems. Please note that we cannot use the text unless you release into the public domain or freely license it using a license compatible with ours. That must be done in a verifiable manner such as changing the copyright notice on the external website to a free license, or emailing the Volunteer response team from a domain name clearly associated with the external link stating the release. We cannot use any copyrighted material by permission, because our licenses requires that material here be able to be reused by our readership, so it has to have a compatible license to ours. For more on these matters, see Donating copyrighted materials, and pay special attention to the section under the heading Granting us permission to copy material already online.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 11:52, 21 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Doesnt' somebody who knows enough about such things also want to explain at least some of the applicable "Wikipedia is not a ..." instances that apply, WP:NOTE, etc., the rules about not creating an article about oneself, etc. ? Seems like that would/could save Ms. Arman a lot of time, not to mention OTRS or whoever it is that deals with copyright issues.  –  OhioStandard  (talk) 12:53, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
 * WP:COI (quite unfortunately in my view) is a guidelines without any teeth. The subject of the article does not appear to have any notability problems (see, e.g., here. But yes, Musicvisions: please see WP:COI, WP:AUTO and WP:NPOV. In short, you are an expert on yourself, but you are incapable (as we all are) of writing about yourself neutrally, which is why you should not be the person to write the article.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 13:16, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Is there a tag I can add for...
Is there a tag I can add to an article that will create a box that says something like 'this section needs to be shortened or condensed'? Thanks. Chevy monte  carlo  11:23, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Very long should do the trick. Mjroots (talk) 11:29, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks! Chevy  monte  carlo  - alt 05:27, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Fun with wikicode!
Suppose I added the first sentence below to an article's talk page, signed my contribution with the usual four tilde characters, and hit "save". Then further suppose another user came along and appended rest of the wikicode/markup thats shown (in edit mode) below:


 * I vote maybe, absolutely maybe, there's no valid reason for anyone to express any other opinion, and I'll sit on the dairy products of anyone who tries! –  OhioStandard  (talk) 12:40, 21 July 2010 (UTC) — Ohiostandard (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Can anyone explain to me what the purpose and affect of the following trailing code that's included above might be?

It doesn't seem to do anything... unless it prevents SignBot from coming along and appending the username/talk/contribs info of the account who added the wikicode? If that's the case, I'd be curious to understand how it does that, if anyone is feeling especially ambitious and charitable. ( And being directed to "The Big Book of Wikicode" that must exist somewhere. ) I'm reasonably familiar with several programming languages if knowing that would make anyone more likely to try to explain how it works. Thanks, –  OhioStandard  (talk) 12:40, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
 * it does do something if you add a date into the spa like this: GB fan it creates — GB fan (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. ,   GB fan  talk 12:47, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
 * It is so that you can add unsigned and the spa wording with one template if the spa didn't sign.  GB fan  talk 12:48, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Got it, thanks so much! I'm always impressed at the extent and depth of technical knowledge available here. Can you also tell me where I should look to learn more about wikicode without just asking y'all? –  OhioStandard  (talk) 13:16, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I just picked it up from playing with it the last few years. Don't really have any advice as to where to go to learn it.   GB fan  talk 13:21, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Okay, thanks! –  OhioStandard  (talk) 13:46, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free image File:MIJO LOGO.png
Hi

I tried to upload this logo twice and both times received the "Orphaned non-free image File:MIJO LOGO.png" and it was deleted by a bot. Here is the link to the logo, it is on the public MIJO website: http://www.mijo.com/mijonet_web/public/skin/MIJO_LOGO.png

What do I have to do to get this accepted by Wikipedia. This logo is for my article for MIJO.

Thanks in advance for your help.

James Murday 13:01, 21 July 2010 (UTC)


 * The problem is that the logo must have been uploaded under a fair use rationale as a non-free image.  Fair use images can only stay on Wikipedia if they are used in an article.  As there is no article MIJO to use the image in, it gets deleted because it is not used.  I would recommend writing the article first in your userspace, then ask for feedback.  Then when the article is ready from a text point, move it to the mainspace and add the picture.   GB fan  talk 13:14, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I see you are writing a userspace draft, User:James Murday/James, so when it is ready and moved to the mainspace, then upload the file and add it to the article.  GB fan  talk 13:18, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Family members
I am a family member of a recent bio that was posted, and provided the information on her page. It is due to be deleted. How do I reference our own family? Liederbacher (talk) 14:18, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
 * You can't. Sources that we use for Wikipedia articles must be publicly published, publicly available reliable sources. Unpublished family records, oral tradition and the like are of no value to us in this project. -- Orange Mike  &#x007C;   Talk  14:29, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Denied a WIKI page without any real rational reason
Dear Help Desk and WIKI community, I have been in a rather one-sided discussion with some WIKI editors the past 2 days. We have tried to start a WIKI page about our unigue organization, The Curreny Exchange Fund NV, or TCX, based on the clear evidence that nearly all of our sister and parent organizations have WIKI pages. Here are a few of the organizations nearly identical to ours and that are part of our organization that all have WIKI pages: KfW, IMF, JBIC, Netherlands Development Finance Company NV, European Bank for Reconstruction and Development - just to list a few. I tried writing and communicating very logically and reasonably with the WIKI editors listed in the text I copied before the user nmae was completely deleted, but instead I got back what seemed to very emotional answers and then deleted. Could someone in the WIKI community please advise me. Thanks in advance! Please see the quoted copied communication below. This blocked user (block log | active blocks | autoblocks | unblock | contribs | deleted contribs | abuse log) has asked to be unblocked, but an administrator has reviewed and declined this request. Other administrators may also review this block, but should not override the decision without good reason (see the blocking policy). Do not remove this unblock request while you are blocked.

Request reason: "Mitchell, as I have already explained in the text above; The Currency Exchange Fund NV is a unique, one of a kind organization and methodology for hedging cross currency swaps limited to emerging market currencies for global development banks and lenders. This extremely original concept and organization is a multilateral global effort. Also as I already mentioned, most of these global development banks and lenders ALSO have WIKI pages - these are our direct owners and shareholders. Considering that WIKI has allowed nearly all of our investors to have a WIKI page, could you please explain exactly why it appears we cannot? I will take this issue as far as I have to if neccessary. Please provide a clear explanation why the other organizations that are very very similar to us and have nearly the indentical purpose as we do, why these organizations and institutions are permitted to have WIKI pages and we are not? Here is a short list of organizations either nearly identical to us or that are our direct owners that all have WIKI pages: KfW, JBIC, Netherlands Development Finance Company, AFDB, International Finance Corporation, International Monetary Fund, European Bank for Reconstruction and Development. Please let me know if you need more examples. Looking forward to receiving your explanation and response. Thank you"

Decline reason: "The reason this account is blocked, as explained in the block notice, is nothing to do with whether your organisation is notable enough to have an article; it is because Wikipedia accounts have to be for individuals, and under our username policy "role accounts" which represent, or appear to represent, organisations are not allowed. JohnCD (talk) 13:19, 21 July 2010 (UTC)"

If you want to make any further unblock requests, please read our guide to appealing blocks first and then use the template again. Note that misuse of the unblock request procedure may result in the removal of your talk page editing privileges for the duration of your block. This blocked user (block log | active blocks | autoblocks | unblock | contribs | deleted contribs | abuse log) has asked to be unblocked, but an administrator has reviewed and declined this request. Other administrators may also review this block, but should not override the decision without good reason (see the blocking policy). Do not remove this unblock request while you are blocked.

Request reason: "John, thank you. I repeat, please clearly explain why ALL of the organizations listed above may have a WIKI page and it appears that now our organization cannot. If you cannot clearly explain this then I will need to esclate the issue. thank you"

Decline reason: "No grounds for unblocking provided. The existence of pages for other organizations does not mean you get to insert an article about your organization; as far as we know, KfW is not written by KfW, JBIC is not written by JBIC, etc, etc. Please familiarize yourself with our conflict of interest and neutral point of view policies to understand why. As far as "escalating" the issue is concerned, I'm not sure what you mean, but please make sure you're not verging on legal threats; we're very touchy about that here. --jpgordon::==( o ) 13:45, 21 July 2010 (UTC)"


 * Above lengthy post is an apparent block evasion by User:The Currency Exchange Fund NV. -- Orange Mike  &#x007C;   Talk  14:32, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
 * JohnCD provided you with links to the pertinent guidelines at the bottom of the talk page for the account that has been blocked.  Sean.hoyland  - talk 14:41, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Thanks Mike and Sean, however no one seems to be able to - not a single response has adequately addressed my question although I have repeated and repeated it. Could you please explain this? I will now contact these organizations and ask them to place posts here and on their discussion pages. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.132.106.198 (talk) 15:35, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Please review the policy on Conflict of Interest. It may help your situation.--Unionhawk Talk E-mail 15:37, 21 July 2010 (UTC)


 * To clarify the situation here, as you seem to misunderstand. The reason you have not received the explanation you seek is because nobody is claiming that your organisation may not have a Wikipedia article about it.  As has been explained on your talk page, an article may be created and would be acceptable on condition that it meets our guidelines on neutrality, verifiability and reliable sourcing.  According to the deletion log, the article you wrote did not meet these guidelines and was deleted as blatant advertising.  The communications you have copied here are about a block which is nothing to do with any article, but is related to your username which is not permitted per our username policy – see WP:ORGNAME.  AJ  Cham  16:00, 21 July 2010 (UTC)


 * With respect to explain why the other organizations listed may indeed have WIKI pages and our organizations may not, please read WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS - we are talking about this deleted article and no others. Re I will now contact these organizations and ask them to place posts here and on their discussion pages. - please don't, that would be disruptive and will get you block for WP:DISRUPTION. – ukexpat (talk) 17:06, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

2nd request
Two days ago, I posted a request for someone to weigh in on the article about Rick Scott, for which I've proposed an expanded replacement section, but received some muted, not intractable opposition. It's a bit involved, but not very complicated, so if you're willing to give it a look, you can find it on this page above, or click here. Thanks. (Note: This is a modified reposting of this request, which looks to have been accidentally removed yesterday.) Thirteenth Florida (talk) 14:39, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Edited the page "National Minority AIDS Council"
Dear sir or madam,

I recently undertook a substantial editing the page for "National Minority AIDS Council." The page had hitherto been marked with several error messages as exhibiting several errors, but I believe that my recent editing has corrected all of these errors. If you agree, and the page now meets your satisfaction, then might the error messages be removed from the page?

Thanks!

Cressycat (talk) 15:46, 21 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I removed the references tag, but the others are still relevant. The article is still rather promotional in tone and an orphan is an article with fewer than three valid incoming (not outgoing) links, this article has none. – ukexpat (talk) 17:11, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

uploading a logo
I am in the process of making a page about a company and need to upload the company logo. What is the best way to go about this? Wtferguson (talk) 15:49, 21 July 2010 (UTC)


 * You won't be able to until your account is autoconfirmed (4 days old and at least 10 edits). Also please read WP:LOGO. Logos can be complicated because most are copyrighted and can only be used here pursuant to Wikipedia's non-free content criteria. I would suggest waiting until the draft is moved to mainspace, then drop me a line on my talk page and I can upload for you. – ukexpat (talk) 16:55, 21 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I also took a look at your draft at User:Wtferguson/MyEdu and would caution you that without references from reliable sources that demonstrate the notability of the company per the guidelines at WP:CORP, the article will not survive long in mainspace. It may even be speedily deleted because, as it stands now, it does not indicate the importance or significance of the subject. – ukexpat (talk) 16:58, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Also see Commons:COM:CB for information about the copyright status of logos. If the logo is too simple to meet the threshold of originality, you can upload it and license it with PD-textlogo and Trademarked (see Commons:File:Boeing wordmark.svg for an example). If the logo is more complex than that, assume it is under the copyright of its creator. You would then need to obtain permission in writing from the copyright holder and document it by following the procedure in Commons:COM:OTRS. If you give us a link to the logo, we can examine it and resolve this conditional branch (i.e., decide whether it could meet the threshold of originality). The precautionary principle is to assume a media file is not free content unless we can prove it is free. That is, if there is any doubt about the copyright status of the logo, we assume it is under copyright. --Teratornis (talk) 18:02, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

autobiography of author
I am a published author - is it possible to create an autobiographical page with links to details of my British Sign Language publications please? Many thanks Cath Cathsmith (talk) 18:27, 21 July 2010 (UTC)


 * It is not recommended that you do so. Autobiography should give you all the information you need to show why that is the case.  AJ Cham  18:49, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Another Bill Johnson
Hi,I created the page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Johnson_(Ohio_politican) but it doesnt show up here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Johnson, is there a lag time or did i do something incorrectly? thx —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rococo4 (talk • contribs) 18:53, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
 * It's not an automatic process; an ambiguous term must be added to the disambiguation page by an editor. -- Orange Mike  &#x007C;   Talk  18:57, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
 * That article was deleted, as the subject was not a notable person in any way. (You also misspelled "politician" among other words). -- Orange Mike  &#x007C;   Talk  19:01, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

person with same name not showing up on main page choices
hi i created the page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Johnson but it doesnt show up on the page with the other bill johnson's. is there a lag time or did i do something incorrectly? thx —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rococo4 (talk • contribs) 18:56, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
 * It's not an automatic process; an ambiguous term must be added to the disambiguation page by an editor. -- Orange Mike  &#x007C;   Talk  18:57, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Using Friends of the Subject as Citations
I am writing an article for this site on a famous photographer and a lot of the information I'm gathering comes from genealogy websites and people who knew him personally. I know that Wikipedia is very particular about citations so would using certain contacts I have who have given me most of this crucial information be considered a legitimate citation according to Wikipedia's standards? If so how exactly do I cite them? Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zombourine (talk • contribs) 20:10, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Nope and nope. Neither those websites nor those friends qualify as reliable sources as we define them. Genealogy websites are nototoriously full of family stories and lore. As to the old friends: if those friends had published articles in magazines, those articles might be cited; but not just word of mouth and anecdote. -- Orange Mike  &#x007C;   Talk  20:17, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Pages started by the conversion script but not on Nostalgia
Is there any way to find the original version of an article that (1) was supposedly started by the conversion script and (2) doesn't appear at Nostalgia? The page in question is Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America; I can't find anything at http://nostalgia.wikipedia.org/wiki/ReformedPresbyterianChurchofNorthAmerica or at http://nostalgia.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reformed_Presbyterian_Church_of_North_America. Nyttend (talk) 22:13, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Pichilemu
Hi, my English is not perfect and I would like to know if the English is consistent in the following quote from a José Toribio Medina book.

The indians that the Spaniards found in that place [Pichilemu] undoubtfully were part of Promoucaes, and they must have formed part of the Topocalma encomienda, that was given in January 24, 1544 by Pedro de Valdivia to Juan Gómez de Almagro. Both facts are deduced from the text of the certificate of that encomienda: «I give to you Juan Gómez, said Valdivia, the cheftains called Palloquierbico, Topocalma and Gualauquén, along with their relatives and indians, that are [living] in the Promoucaes provinces, near the sea coast».

Thanks,  Diego Grez  what's up? 23:04, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Diego, WP:Be bold also applies here.  Kayau  Voting  IS   evil 23:36, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I know, that's why I went ahead and added the quote, just wanted to know if someone is willing to copyedit it.  Diego Grez  what's up?  16:02, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, if it's a quote, don't fix it! The way the Guardian discourages adding stuff in squared brackets.  Kayau  Voting  IS   evil 00:15, 23 July 2010 (UTC)