Wikipedia:Help desk/Archives/2011 July 12

= July 12 =

pay
Is it possible for Wikipedia to pay users ever? Not asking if you are volenteers. A person who has been editing Wikipedia since October 28, 2010. (talk) 00:05, 12 July 2011 (UTC)


 * I do not understand what exactly you want to know. Whom do you mean by users? I guess you are referring to Wikipedias editors. The second part of your question I don't get either. Do you want to know if I edit Wikipedia voluntarily? Sorry, I don't get the point of your question. Toshio Yamaguchi (talk) 00:19, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Editors cannot be paid; however, there are members of the Wikimedia Foundation who are paid. Ryan Vesey (talk) 00:25, 12 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Neither Wikipedia nor Wikimedia pays anyone to edit Wikipedia. (As Ryan points put, Foundation staff are paid, but not to edit). As far as I know, neither has paid anyone to edit in the past. "Ever" is a long time if you are looking to the future, and we could only guess. We try to avoid guessing. Bielle  (talk) 00:31, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
 * There have been some unfounded accusations of editors being paid; however, I will not bring up the specific examples here. Ryan Vesey (talk) 00:36, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Just to clarify, Ryan, editors have been banned for paid editing. The payments were not from Wikipedia or the Foundation, however. Bielle (talk) 00:57, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

See Paid editing. ---— Gadget850 (Ed)  talk 01:10, 12 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Also see Reward board :) Calmer   Waters  02:10, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

'''1. Rephrasing of question: Does Wikipedia pay any users to edit? And you said something about the WikiMediaFoundation: What do they get paid for? Not to edit? What for?'''

2. Excuse me, Gadget850, did you look at the links? It's a DisAmBigUaTion page. Exactly which one of the disambiguation links do I use?

3. CalmerWaters that doesn't answer my question. Not to be rude at all, but I don't really care.

4. A person who has been editing Wikipedia since October 28, 2010. (talk) 02:21, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Thought it might be of interest from your initial question, that there are legitimate ways for editors to get paid on this site. However; as you really don't care I'll leave it to others to address your forum-like concerns. Kindly Calmer   Waters  02:38, 12 July 2011 (UTC)


 * You don't need to shout by using boldface type, or otherwise be rude. That you don't care that you might be rude will mean that people are less likely to want to answer your questions. We are all, like you, volunteers. Your first question has been answered already, but I will do it once again: No, Wikipedia does not pay anyone to edit. I hope that is clear. Wikimedia the Foundation that governs, among many, Wikipedia, has staff: office staff, (accounting, clerical and the like), fundraising staff, developers and the like. They are paid for their work, but their work does not include editing Wikipedia. It is possible that some of the Foundation staff also voluntarily edit Wikipedia on their own time. I hope that is clear. Bielle  (talk) 02:45, 12 July 2011 (UTC)


 * If by "paid" you mean something other than money, then see the link left by Calmer Waters. Bielle (talk) 03:28, 12 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Any of the articles on the disambiguation page linked by Gadget850 might be of interest in this context. The choice is yours. Bielle (talk) 03:32, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
 * It's almost a moral certainty that when someone prefaces a sentence with "not to be rude...", what follows is rudeness.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 04:28, 12 July 2011 (UTC)


 * I'm not trying to be rude, I'm just trying to point out the main points of my comment. And Bielle, “The choice is yours”? What kind of answer is that? And FughettaboutIt, something that you won't want to hear: “I'm sorry if I sound rude, but I really don't care.” That is to your above comment, because the above has nothing to do with my original question. And CalmerWaters, “Thought it might be of interest from your initial question”? My initial purpose of coming here is to have my question answered in an orderly manner, not to be swayed in any direction other than to answer my original question. I also think that is the purpose of the help desk? To answer other users questions in a timely fashion? And Bielle, “If by "paid" you mean something other than money, then see the link left by Calmer Waters”? did you read #3 above in my above comment? I think I clearly stated that I had absolutely no interest in the link that CalmerWaters stated. I did see and acknowledge the “:)” in his comment, hinting that it is a slightly humorous link. In fact, I am going to take back the comment that I said to CalmerWaters. See above, I have struck out my comment to him. I acutally change my mind on that; I do think that his link may have been useful to me in the near future. However he said, “However; as you really don't care I'll leave it to others to address your forum-like concerns”, thus dismissing him from this conversation (in my opinion, slightly rude: “as you really don't care I'll leave it to others...your forum-like concerns” kind of like: “Well, since you don't care, then I'll let other people help you with your problems”) I apologize for my above misunderstanding of my question (“Is it possible for Wikipedia to pay users ever? Not asking if you are volenteers.”). Quite confusing. The explanation is that I did not know how to phrase the question. And Fuhghettaboutit, “It's almost a moral certainty that when someone prefaces a sentence with "not to be rude...", what follows is rudeness”, yes that is true and again, something that you definitely do not want to hear: “I'm sorry if I sound rude, but I really don't care”, to the above comment. That is because, how I view your comment, is slightly disruptive and quite off-topic, because I think it is totally unrelated to: “Does Wikipedia pay any users to edit?” I personally think the place to put such a comment, would be in the form of a reminder here. Also, “someone”? Is that hinting me, or just anyone in general? Again, I am not trying to shout or be rude, I am only trying to highlight the main topics in my comment. If I were to shout I would be putting all caps and bold and  (notice I said “I”; I meant “I” instead of a general populus: “If the general populus were to shout[,] the general populus would be putting all caps and bold...”). Sorry for being “rude”. regard  A person who has been editing Wikipedia since October 28, 2010. (talk) 05:26, 13 July 2011 (UTC)


 * A number of volunteers have answered your questions thoughtfully, carefully, politely and correctly. As I am unable to find the same consideration in your hectoring responses, I shall move on. Others may be more tolerant. Bielle (talk) 16:04, 13 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Whatever regard A person who has been editing Wikipedia since October 28, 2010. (talk) 20:19, 13 July 2011 (UTC)
 * "...because the above has nothing to do with my original question." Wrong. Your responses, including their improper tone and inappropriate content are fair game for commentary. It affects all of us and you are becoming a common source of disruption. Your response was rude, gratuitously so, and the fact that you prefaced it the way you did telegraphs that you knew it was rude.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 00:36, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
 * What? I don't understand what you're saying (as in grammar, language, etc.) A person who has been editing Wikipedia since October 28, 2010. (talk) 01:19, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
 * What does this mean: “fair game for commentary”? I don't understand what it means. And yes, I did know that it was rude, thus the previous warning: “I'm sorry if I sound rude...” I really don't see what the problem of saying that is.  A person who has been editing Wikipedia since October 28, 2010. (talk) 01:22, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
 * What he means is, if you are going to say something rude and unseemly at Wikipedia, you should not be surprised when you are called on it. When you preface your comments with "I'm not trying to be rude" what that means is that you are aware that others will perceive your comments as rude.  If you need to make that statement before saying something, it may be best not to say that thing in the first place.-- Jayron  32  01:32, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I know that. A person who has been editing Wikipedia since October 28, 2010. (talk) 21:12, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

Adding my name
How do I add my name to the list of Bronze Star recipients? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jlamay (talk • contribs) 01:10, 12 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Such lists are only intended for people who satisfy the requirements in Notability (people) and already have a Wikipedia biography. If you refer to a category such as Category:Recipients of the Bronze Star Medal then the only possible way to add a name is to edit the article about the person. PrimeHunter (talk) 01:29, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

Surname listing
I would like the wikipedia article I created at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Douglas_Wiggins

to show up under the surname of 'Wiggins' - such as at this link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiggins_(surname)

I have added the category 'surnames' weeks ago, but it is not showing up under the Wiggins surname. Can anyone please let me know why? This is what I added Wiggins

Graphmaster (talk) 01:11, 12 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Wiggins (surname) is an article, just like Kim Douglas Wiggins and not a category. Categorizing Kim Douglas Wiggins has no effect on the article Wiggins (surname). You have to click the 'Edit'-tab at the top of Wiggins (surname) and add it manually to that list in order for it to show up there. Toshio Yamaguchi (talk) 01:29, 12 July 2011 (UTC)


 * I've added Kim Douglas Wiggins to the Wiggins (surname) article for you. Dismas |(talk) 02:50, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

Column titles on comparison pages
Is it possible to keep the column titles in view while scrolling through long lists of comparisons on Comparison pages? — Preceding unsigned comment added by TrevorX (talk • contribs) 01:30, 12 July 2011 (UTC)


 * No, but if the list is very long then perhaps it should be edited in some way. Do you have a specific article with a long list in mind? PrimeHunter (talk) 01:35, 12 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the quick response. One example might be http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_operating_systems  — Preceding unsigned comment added by TrevorX (talk • contribs) 01:42, 12 July 2011 (UTC)


 * The column titles are also at the bottom but scrolling is still required for many rows. The columns are sortable by clicking once or twice on the column title (this misformatted the table before but I have fixed it). The right sorting may bring a row close to the top. An unsortable table could periodically have inserted extra rows where the content is a repetition of the column titles, but this is not practical for a sortable table. I don't see a reasonable way to split the table into more tables or reduce the size, so I'm out of ideas. PrimeHunter (talk) 02:00, 12 July 2011 (UTC)


 * At least now it has been asked and answered that column titles can not be made to remain in view by some secret method. Thank you!  — Preceding unsigned comment added by TrevorX (talk • contribs) 02:22, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

Problem with a template (or something)
So, I am at George Armstrong Custer Equestrian Monument and in the infobox (?) Edward Clark Potter is listed as the architect when in reality ( another word for in my opinion ) he is the sculptor. However if I change "architect" to "sculptor" it does not show up. Somewhere there is an architect for this monument and he needs to be acknowledged, but so does the sculptor. Any ideas? Einar aka Carptrash (talk) 01:48, 12 July 2011 (UTC)


 * I am not sure if it would make sense to edit the infobox for this single case. However you could add (Sculptor) after the name. Thus it would look like


 * Architect: Edward Clark Potter (Sculptor)


 * I think it would also be a good idea to bring this up at Talk:George Armstrong Custer Equestrian Monument. Toshio Yamaguchi (talk) 01:59, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Or you could request at Template talk:Infobox NRHP to add a field to the template for sculptor, especially if you feel that this may be the case with other articles. Calmer   Waters  02:03, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

I have run into this issue before, so it is not just a single case, but I like adding (sculptor) as a way to help me sleep tonight. Meanwhile, I have discovered that the architects were Hunt & Hunt, so it is going to get a bit crowded there. Carptrash (talk) 02:44, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I added sculptor to the infobox functionality and subsequently to the article.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 04:48, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks for doing that Fuhghettaboutit Calmer   Waters  03:18, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

Template:Miss Universe Organization titleholders
Consider the article Alyssa Campanella. If you look at the templates, you will note that I have created footer templates for all of her templates but one. I am trying to figure out a way to reorganize the use of the Miss Universe Organization titleholders in a page like Miss Universe Organization titleholders 2011. However, the MUOt2011 template that I created is not friendly to the below parameter. Is there a way to reorganize the use of this template to link them all?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 03:13, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I've edited the so that it accepts a "below" parameter. Is that what you were looking for? -- John of Reading (talk) 07:52, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes. That will do. I think I may need your help on a few other templates. I will contact you as I figure out what I need.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 17:54, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Please do! -- John of Reading (talk) 18:54, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I will need Big Four Pageants titleholders, Miss Earth and runners-up titleholders, Miss World Continental Queen of Beauty Titleholders all reformatted as well.
 * I also need to be able to add a name parameter so that when I click the edit button of a template like Miss Universe Organization titleholders 2010 it takes me to the right place.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 02:32, 13 July 2011 (UTC)
 * ✅ Are you planning to create other sets of templates with a year suffix? Let's continue this on my talk page. -- John of Reading (talk) 10:20, 13 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I have left some commments on your user talk.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 18:46, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia Experiment FAIL
Hello,

I am currently doing a degree in internet communications and my study topic for last week was wikipedia - one of the activities was to contribute to wikipedia and I didn't follow protocol and ended up doing an experiement. I added mine and my husbabds name to a list of notable residents in our local suburb of Kilburn, London thinking it would be removed - 2 days on its still there and now I am to discover, I can't remove it myself.

Can you please arrange for it to be deleted. Many apologies - this is a social experiment gone wrong! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kmarees1986 (talk • contribs) 08:44, 12 July 2011 (UTC)


 * You should have been able to remove it yourself, as the article is not in any way protected. Be that as it may, I have removed your names from the list. Favonian (talk) 08:49, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

Elizabeth Street, Sydney
I need some help at Elizabeth Street, Sydney. Nothing is working out and I can't see what the problem is. Help!
 * I've fixed the error message. In two places you had ended a reference with  instead of  . -- John of Reading (talk) 10:18, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

Is the Pothole article violating NOTHOW?
I'm not sure if the Repair section is acceptable or not. It looks to me like a marginal case of violating WP:NOTHOW. I'd appreciate some input from experienced editors. Roger (talk) 14:46, 12 July 2011 (UTC)


 * I'm not quite 'experienced', heh, but IMHO, it doesn't. It actually reads more like a comparison of the different patching methods (which would naturally necessitate outlining some of the methods somewhat) rather than a howto.--  Obsidi♠n   Soul   17:23, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
 * In my opinion WP:NOTHOW might be one of the most dubious rules on Wikipedia. Although I have no reason to believe this, I would like to believe it is a relic from the early days when Wikipedia was small and the greatest need was to exclude large chunks of the sum of human knowledge, the better to focus the efforts of the small Wikipedia community. Lately, however, the growth of Wikipedia has been slowing. There is still lots left to do within the relatively small subset of human knowledge we are allowed to write about, but the arbitrary exclusion of procedural knowledge makes no sense to me. I find this exclusion rather elitist, because practical knowledge is of great interest to the working class, as well as enthusiasts in every field, and of less interest to the leisured class who read primarily for entertainment with no interest in actually doing anything. (The Wikipedia namespace is full of procedural knowledge, i.e. it tells how to build Wikipedia. It is mildly shocking that we refuse to let other domains benefit from the same collaborative procedure building that has produced the stunning success of Wikipedia itself.) In any case, it's straightforward to work around the exclusion (to some extent) by describing rather than prescribing procedural knowledge. In the example in the question, one should not use the imperative mood to prescribe a "best" method to fill potholes, but one could describe in considerable detail the methods that various road maintenance agencies use, and list the reliably sourced advantages and disadvantages of various methods. The main problem I see with Pothole at the moment is that it cites no sources at all. The overall flow of the section is, I think, sufficiently descriptive rather than prescriptive to avoid violating WP:NOTHOW. No one who lacks prior experience could read only that section and know enough to repair potholes competently, so it could hardly be said to be teaching people how to repair potholes. --Teratornis (talk) 20:53, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

Correct place for for language icon template inside a reference using a citation template
In the article Börse Stuttgart there is for example the following reference

I want to add to that citation, however I am not sure where the template has to be placed in the reference. Should it come before the citation template or after it, or should it be placed somewhere inside the citation template? Unfortunately, the documentation at Template:De icon says nothing about this and does not contain a usage example. Does anybody know? Toshio Yamaguchi (talk) 15:28, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
 * According to, you should be adding "language=German" and a "trans_title". -- John of Reading (talk) 15:36, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks John. Somehow I didn't consider looking at the documentation for the citation template. Toshio Yamaguchi (talk) 15:47, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

Wrong redirect
Hi! Osmotic pump redirects to infusion pump which is misleading in many cases. Though there are infusion pumps which are based on osmotic pressure, the main application is in the field of controlled oral drug delivery. The most commonly used system is OROS (just give it a try at Google). Since the current redirect is applicable only to a niche application, I would suggest to delete it (which need admin rights) or change it to OROS (which I could do myself, but not without consensus). What do you think? Alfie ↑↓ © 16:04, 12 July 2011 (UTC)


 * In general the best place to discuss such matters is on the talk page of the relevant article(s). - David Biddulph (talk) 16:37, 12 July 2011 (UTC)


 * I agree this sort of thing can be misleading, but redirects are not intended to imply a synonym. According to Redirect they can direct the reader to "sub-topics or other topics which are described or listed within a wider article."--Shantavira|feed me 07:27, 13 July 2011 (UTC)


 * @David: Generally yes, but Talk:Infusion pump is not an active place (last edit three years ago). Alfie  ↑↓ © 15:58, 13 July 2011 (UTC)


 * @Shantavira: Agree, but osmotic pump is not a synonym of infusion pump. There are (very few) infusion pumps which are driven by osmotic pressure (though personally I haven’t seen any). It is much more likely that a user searches for an osmotic pump used in controlled drug delivery (tablets or subcutaneous implants). Therefore the redirect IMHO makes no sense (Reasons for deleting #5). Alfie  ↑↓ © 15:58, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

Please do not delete my page
Inserting references in my Eliane Reyes article is no problem in itself. The problem is that all of the references are in French (see French version of the article). Should I insert them anyway?Jmeden7 (talk) 17:07, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, there's no problem if the references are in French - frankie (talk) 17:11, 12 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Yep. Foreign language sources are perfectly acceptable (though English is preferred). Please see Verifiability--  Obsidi♠n   Soul   17:14, 12 July 2011 (UTC)


 * I've listed a few links to English sources at Talk:Eliane Reyes - you really need to get some sources (in any language) added as soon as possible. From what I've seen her notability is indisputable, it just needs to be cited. Roger (talk) 16:16, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

Why Does the page revert to the old one after edits?
I'm trying to update the "Socialist Caucus" page. Every time I add the new logo and make the two or three changes, I press "Save page" and everything is fine.

Yet when I log back in, I type in "Socialist Caucus" and it goes back to the old copy. Also, it says "redirected from Socialist Caucus" and sends me to the "NDP Socialist Caucus" page.

Yet when I want to make the edits again, I go into edit and realize that the changes are already there. In other words, the changes are already in the edit box, yet when I go back into "Read", it reverts to the old version.

Can you tell me why this is?
 * Try bypassing your cache. That might fix your issue.  Them From  Space  20:25, 12 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Could be a browser cache issue, see WP:BYPASS for guidance on bypassing your browser cache. Sometimes a server purge may help too. – ukexpat (talk) 20:26, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

What was changed in this edit?
What was changed here? I see diffs like this all the time, but I can't tell what was actually done. Zagal e jo^^^ 22:27, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
 * The edit likely just added a space after " Miami Heat "; such edits are called null edits. Hey  Mid  (contribs) 22:36, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Heymid hit the nail on the head, but if you both want to be able to actually see exactly what was done in such changes, I recommend adding to Special:MyPage/skin.js

// install User:Cacycle/wikEdDiff enhanced diff view using ajax importScript('User:Cacycle/wikEdDiff.js');
 * It's a very useful tool.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 22:49, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Ah, cool. Thanks! Zagal e jo^^^ 23:16, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks! It works wonderful. Hey  Mid  (contribs) 15:15, 13 July 2011 (UTC)