Wikipedia:Help desk/Archives/2012 January 3

= January 3 =

Need help with category
This category has a link to Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard/Watchlist, can someone remove it? --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 01:30, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I removed it. Thanks for pointing that out. —teb728 t c 01:49, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

how to reference
hi,

i have a scanned articles and want to use that as reference on wikipedia, is that allowed?

i don't have their online link anymore cause the articles were 5-7 years ago.

thanks,

Boowhy (talk) 01:44, 3 January 2012 (UTC)


 * As in scanned from a magazine or other published source? You would reference the original publication.  Not all references have to be online.  See Referencing for beginners.  Dismas |(talk) 01:51, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Use of minority languages
On the English wikipedia, is it always acceptable to include a minority language version of a name e.g. an airport, town hall etc, in the minority language of that country, if it is an official language?

I ask because someone has deleted my Irish language inclusion of Belfast International Airport stating that as Belfast is part of the UK English is the only official language, and thus Irish language is not needed. This is highly incorrect as the Irish language is an official language in Northern Ireland, and enjoys official status, therefore to me it seems highly acceptable to include it in brackets much like the airport pages for cardiff has welsh etc. thanks! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dietcoke20122 (talk • contribs) 03:09, 3 January 2012 (UTC)


 * The reason for that being removed was an incorrect one by that editor, however there is good reason for it to be removed. Historically no reliable sources have been provided to prove that an Irish name is in common use, or indeed what an Irish name would be, for the Northern Ireland airports. Anything else is just a translation of the name which isn't the same thing per WP:OR and WP:Verifiable. Canterbury Tail   talk  04:09, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

recent recessed article - list of adaptogens
hello,

there has been an article around, i seem to be unable to retrieve as it was deleted. i am not primarily interested in reanimating it, as it was lacking profound scientific backup, yet i'd like to have a copy of it. is it possible to get my hands on one- it was still available half a year ago (the last updated version would be nice, actually). well, i hope i'll at least find the answer on wiki help desk.

regards, thanks in advance, pax — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.109.117.199 (talk) 03:09, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
 * The article Adaptogen used to have a list of adaptogens in it. It was deleted for somewhat unclear reasons by an anonymous editor. It's not the best-sourced list ever, but it could probably be restored and improved. (There may be a liberal dose of disclaimers needed that the references may be pseudoscientific - that is, it's a list of things purported to be adaptogens.) Calliopejen1 (talk) 11:34, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

someone is deleting the updated info on my Wikipedia entry and leaving outdated info
My name is Thomas B. Edsall and I am a professor at Columbia University and an online columnist for the New York Times.

http://campaignstops.blogs.nytimes.com/author/thomas-b-edsall/ http://www.journalism.columbia.edu/profile/35-thomas-b-edsall/10

Today I attempted to update the outdated information in my Wikipedia entry. My correct information is available from Marquis Who's Who 2011 edition, as I noted, and from my Columbia University faculty website.

Here is the email I received this evening from Wikipedia alleging (incorrectly)that the correct information I added to my entry is unsubstantiated. This allegation is incorrect:

I was the Political Editor of the Huffington Post from 2007 to 2009. I currently write an online column for the New York Times. My most recent Who's Who entry is for 2011 not 2006.

Please put me in touch with someone who knows how to restore my vandalized Wikipedia page.

Here is the misinformed email I received a few minutes ago from a Wikipedia editor?

Dear ,

The Wikipedia page "User talk:" has been changed on 3 January 2012 by Kumioko, with the edit summary: /* January 2012 */ Greetings

See http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:((details_removed))&diff=0&oldid=469225139 for all changes since your last visit. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:((details_removed)) for the current revision.

To contact the editor, visit http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Kumioko

Note that additional changes to the page "User talk:((details_removed))" will not result in any further notifications, until you have logged in and visited the page.

Your friendly Wikipedia notification system

--

This email notification feature was enabled on English Wikipedia in May 2011 - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Email_notification. If you would like to switch off your notifications, visit http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Preferences

Feedback and further assistance: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Contents — Preceding unsigned comment added by ((details removed)) (talk • contribs) 03:10, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
 * There were some concerns raised about sourcing. I'm currently in the process of adding back most of that material, using sources which will meet Wikipedia's requirements. It will take a little while, but it should be good soon. - Bilby (talk) 03:14, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I have removed all the visible copies of your email address from this section to protect your privacy. -- John of Reading (talk) 08:28, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
 * It should also be noted that Marquis Who's Who publications are not necessarily reliable sources, since much of their content is provided by the subject (I oughta know, I've been listed myself). -- Orange Mike &#x007C;  Talk  15:54, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

speedy close requested

 * Done now. Milkunderwood (talk) 17:19, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

at Talk:Piano Sonata No. 8 (Beethoven), for reasons discussed there: parallel move requests at a number of separate pages. Thanks to anyone who can help. Milkunderwood (talk) 03:30, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Photo captions.
Please change the position of the photos on your pages. You show a face that has the name of the person or subject one is trying to find. Oddly, this page with the picture of Sue Gardner, fits. When I looked up Robert Irsay, your page showed up with the above photo of Ms. Gardner, as if Robert Irsay was her name. It just looks weird. A caption under a photo should relate to the photo, not to anything or anyone else. This happens on most, if not, all of your pages.

Honest, it's basic journalism. Thanks.166.248.2.235 (talk) 03:39, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Even people unfamiliar with banner ads should have no trouble distinguishing that the thank you for contributing banner from Sue Gardner, given the form of the graphic, is separate from an article they find it in and not part of the article itself, much less the vast numbers of Internet savvy people who will immediately recognize its form.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 03:51, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
 * My problem is I can't access the msg from Sue. Both the "Read me" button and the "please read" message do nothing. Is that just my browser (IE8) on my PC? Nurg (talk) 07:14, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Not certain, but I'll report to the fundraising team. Thanks!  -Philippe  (talk) 08:49, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

That little cross...
UI was reading an article and I saw a little cross near someones name. Does that signify that the person has passed away. I'm just wondering! Thanks! :) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.112.37.117 (talk) 07:38, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
 * See Dagger (typography), especially the section Modern usage. Dru of Id (talk) 08:21, 3 January 2012 (UTC)


 * It depends though. Make sure that you do not see footnotes or another explanation for the dagger (it is not a cross) anywhere else on the article. The dagger is sometimes used conventionally as a second footnote symbol (after the asterisk).--  Obsidi ♠ n   Soul   09:41, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
 * 'The dagger is usually used to indicate a footnote, in the same way an asterisk is. However, the dagger is only used for a second footnote when an asterisk is already used.' The first two sentences of the suggested section. Dru of Id (talk) 13:43, 3 January 2012 (UTC)


 * I know... I wrote most of that article. :P --  Obsidi ♠ n   Soul   15:22, 3 January 2012 (UTC)


 * I thought the OP was an interesting question: "a little cross". The "death dagger" certainly does look like a Christian Cross, and I think it is usually interpreted as such, more often than not. It occurs to me to wonder how this may be misinterpreted by followers of non-Christian religions. Or, for instance, what typographical conventions indicating death might be used in Hebrew or Arabic, for instance? Would it be possible to expand on this question at Dagger (typography)? Milkunderwood (talk) 17:46, 3 January 2012 (UTC)


 * If you can find sources discussing this, feel free to expand the article of course. I'm not familiar with the typographical notations of other writing systems though. The origin of the use of the death dagger is from its original usage as an editorial notation. The simplification of its form in modern fonts to resemble a Christian cross is purely coincidental, it has no connections to it whatsoever. The fact that crosses in modern times have been linked to graves (and hence to death), may have also played a part. But even Christian scholars have never confused the two. Notice that unicode differentiates them (albeit very subtly): ✝ and † (left: Christian cross, right: dagger).--  Obsidi ♠ n   Soul   05:50, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

I want to register
Hi my name is lerato, i would like to know that do you have grade7 in this school. And please send me the fees details via my email address @ please ugently. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.22.108.105 (talk) 09:03, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I suspect, based on your question, that you found one of our over 3.8 million articles and thought we were affiliated in some way with that subject. Please note that you are at Wikipedia, the free online encyclopedia that anyone can edit, and this page is for asking questions related to using or contributing to Wikipedia itself. Thus, we have no special knowledge about the subject of your question. You can, however, search our vast catalogue of articles by typing a subject into the search field on the upper right side of your screen. If you cannot find what you are looking for, we have a reference desk, divided into various subject areas, where asking knowledge questions is welcome. Best of luck. -- John of Reading (talk) 09:09, 3 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Note free - no fees involved whatsoever. Milkunderwood (talk) 17:24, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Dear Sir,
I have constructed an article in the name of "Abdulaziz Saud Al-Babtain" in Arabic and in English, but when I examined the English article I saw many differences from the Arabic one, and many items were deleted from the English one. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zagreat (talk • contribs) 09:08, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Note that different-language Wikipediae have their own policies. What works for one will not work for all of them. — Jeremy v^_^v Components:V S M 09:14, 3 January 2012 (UTC)


 * (e/c) This is Wikipedia, the "encyclopedia that anyone can edit", and you can look at the page history to see the edits that have been made since you created the article. The deletion's edit summary was "Removed excessive promotion. Removed honours and activities that didn't make clear the subject's role. Needs more and better referencing". If this isn't clear then I suggest you begin a discussion at Talk:Abdulaziz Saud Al-Babtain. -- John of Reading (talk) 09:15, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
 * (e/c) This is Wikipedia, the "encyclopedia that anyone can edit", and you can look at the page history to see the edits that have been made since you created the article. The deletion's edit summary was "Removed excessive promotion. Removed honours and activities that didn't make clear the subject's role. Needs more and better referencing". If this isn't clear then I suggest you begin a discussion at Talk:Abdulaziz Saud Al-Babtain. -- John of Reading (talk) 09:15, 3 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Abdulaziz Saud Al-Babtain reads like a promotional piece and I have tagged it for speedy deletion as such. – ukexpat (talk) 14:19, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Uploading
Hi, I just created the page Chaim Walder and would like to illustrate it with two images that I found on the Hebrew Wikipedia. One image, Child18.jpg, is a book cover and is therefore copyrighted. I tried to upload it on Wikipedia instead of Commons, using the information provided for File:Dreams from my father.jpg as a guide, but the form kept saying "Error on page" and wouldn't accept it. I could not upload the second image, חיים ולדר.JPG, on Commons because the Commons Helper could not recognize the title. How can I upload it to Wikipedia? (It has an OTRS symbol on it; what does that mean?) Both images are important to illustrate the commentary. Thank you, Yoninah (talk) 09:55, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Would you be able to provide some direct links to the images on the Hebrew Wikipedia? Locating them myself is proving.. difficult. It would be handy to see them to see if they're licensed in such a way to be compatible with en Wikipedia and Commons. As for חיים ולדר.JPG, the best answer would be to simply re-name the file or perhaps reverse the RTL text.  Я ehevkor ✉  11:02, 3 January 2012 (UTC)


 * File:חיים ולדר.JPG is already at the Commons so you should be able to use it directly here without any further uploading needed. The second image is this, yes? If so, that is used under a claim of fair use, i.e., it is not in the public domain, remains copyrighted and does not bear a free copyright license compatible with Wikipedia's. Accordingly, it cannot be uploaded to the Commons, which is only for free images. In order to use it here you would need to upload it locally (see Upload) also under a claim of fair use, but please note the stringent criteria you need to meet for a fair use image.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 12:42, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the info! Yoninah (talk) 13:49, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

first row live sports
i cant access first row on my computer anymore is there something wrong with this site --92.30.151.133 (talk) 11:55, 3 January 2012 (UTC)3jan
 * When you say "first row", to what are you referring? Do you mean your Start menu? TN X Man  17:05, 3 January 2012 (UTC)


 * If you mean http://www.firstrowsports.tv/ then I suggest you try the "Contact Us" link at the foot of that home page. This help desk page is for asking questions about Wikipedia, the free online encyclopedia. -- John of Reading (talk) 18:07, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

David Polglass - death
DAvid died ten years ago i need to find out some information please can you help — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.235.140.204 (talk) 12:39, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Symbol_move_vote.svg Have you tried the section of Wikipedia's Reference Desk? They specialize in answering knowledge questions there; this help desk is only for questions about using Wikipedia.  For your convenience, here is the link to post a question there: [ click here] . I hope this helps.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 12:47, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Food supply -wild animals
Could you let me know which animals eat Pineapples, as part of their diet Paul Tomsett Email address :- (Redacted) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.46.117.2 (talk) 14:10, 3 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Welcome to . Your question appears to be a homework question. I apologize if this is a misinterpretation, but it is our policy here not to do people's homework for them, but to merely aid them in doing it themselves. Letting someone else do your homework does not help you learn nearly as much as doing it yourself. Please attempt to solve the problem or answer the question yourself first. If you need help with a specific part of your homework, feel free to tell us where you are stuck and ask for help. If you need help grasping the concept of a problem, by all means let us know. – ukexpat (talk) 14:20, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Welcome to . Your question appears to be a homework question. I apologize if this is a misinterpretation, but it is our policy here not to do people's homework for them, but to merely aid them in doing it themselves. Letting someone else do your homework does not help you learn nearly as much as doing it yourself. Please attempt to solve the problem or answer the question yourself first. If you need help with a specific part of your homework, feel free to tell us where you are stuck and ask for help. If you need help grasping the concept of a problem, by all means let us know. – ukexpat (talk) 14:20, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Logging-in after username change
A request to change to this username has been approved. I just have noticed, however, that I still was logged-in as my previous details when making subsequent edits.

I now am logged-in with the one I intend to use. Could I confirm that I won't be tackled for sockpuppeteering as long as I stick to the new username? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Woundwort (talk • contribs) 14:49, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
 * You won't. :) Just redirect your old userpages to your new ones so everybody knows you weren't trying to sock. As a matter of fact, it is common to recreate the old account to prevent impersonation by a troll. Reaper Eternal (talk) 15:25, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Muchy grassy-arse, as we say in Scotland. Woundwort  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Woundwort (talk • contribs) 15:27, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

facebook
I've got a bb curve and my fb icon was on my phone all the time and I could just open it without using any email adress or password ,now its missing and when I tried to download it again they asked for email adresses and password and I forgot all my details because I never had to use it ,I only know my username. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.186.30.115 (talk) 16:58, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Symbol_move_vote.svg Have you tried the section of Wikipedia's Reference Desk? They specialize in answering knowledge questions there; this help desk is only for questions about using Wikipedia.  For your convenience, here is the link to post a question there: [ click here] . I hope this helps.  TN X Man  17:03, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Russian articles need for translation
I'm a Russian doctor and I want to translate some wiki articles from Russian wiki into English. Is there any list of medicine-related articles that need to be translated from Russian? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Uralochka03 (talk • contribs) 17:14, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I would say you would need to look in two places. The first is this page to get an idea of how translation works on Wikipedia. The second is this page, which is the wikiproject for medicine. They should be able to point you towards articles that need translation. TN X Man  17:30, 3 January 2012 (UTC)


 * One thing you could try is to go to medical category at the Russian Wikipedia ru:Категория:Медицина and just start looking for reasonably well developed articles (ones with citations to reliable sources would be best) for which there is no English equivalent. Many, but not all articles, will list on the right left hand side articles on the same subject in other languages. So when you go to a Russian medical article, but don't see English listed in that interlanguage list, then you have a possible candidate for translation. However, the list of other languages may be incomplete. Thus, before starting any translation I would first search this Wikipedia for the topic to make sure it doesn't already exist (and if it does, it would be helpful if you updated the Russian article and the English article by adding the appropriate interlanguage link, i.e., in the Russian article you'd add at the bottom Exact name of English article , and in the English article you'd add at the bottom  Exact name of Russian article  . I'd also concentrate on relatively obscure subjects. Because of the relative completeness of topic coverage here, most major medical subjects will be covered. However, you might also look for high quality Russian articles on subjects that are covered here, but where the article here is not so well developed or may be a stub, and then expand it with the translated content. Hope this helps.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 23:03, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
 * ITYM "will list on the LEFT hand side articles on the same subject in other languages"...Naraht (talk) 11:09, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia Security and Higher Education
Hi everyone,

I am an academic researcher and the bulk of my research has focused on security issues in Wikipedia and collaborative applications (vandalism, spam, deleted revisions, etc.). I am currently working on a writing that frames these issues relative to higher education. Though I understand all the technical considerations, I don't heavily involve myself with the minutae of community operation.

Since many of you do, I am asking for help in location concrete instances of mis-behavior of this type, preferably those that generated a little controversy or news. For example, has an entire University or department ever been blocked for excessive vandalism? Has a University's communications office ever been involved in a dispute for excessively "spinning" topics to minimize controversy? These things are of course imaginable, but being able to point to actual instances would be extremely helpful. Anything relevant is appreciated. Thanks, West.andrew.g (talk) 21:07, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
 * You might try combing through back issues of Wikipedia Signpost to look for stories about that. If something like that has happened, it may have been newsworthy enough to appear there.  -- Jayron  32  21:10, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I think if you examine the talk pages of the articles on just about any university, but especially the articles about their sports programs and/or their current heads (President, Chancellor, whatever), you will find instances of this going on, either currently or in the archives. I won't name examples myself, since I'm an alumnus of at least of the institutions I'm thinking of. -- Orange Mike &#x007C;  Talk  21:21, 3 January 2012 (UTC)


 * From personal experience, IP addresses belonging to schools have notoriously been one of the most perennial sources of vandalism (often of the subtle kind) in Wikipedia. IP's identified as such are marked with the template . Browsing the IP users categorized under Category:Shared IP addresses from educational institutions might help if you're looking for school IP's that have been blocked and/or banned. But it's mostly (presumably) because of students and unconnected to the actual staff/faculty of the institutions.


 * I also suggest googling for schools which might have been involved in controversies and then taking a look at their Wikipedia pages. Their page histories might include instances of attempts to include and/or remove such issues (I came across one such case last year for an American school for a locally newsworthy scandal, but I can't remember what the article was).--  Obsidi ♠ n   Soul   06:14, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Requring a static IP address to have a Wikipedia account in order to edit.
I log into Wikipedia from a small private network with a static IP. I've had instances where other people on the network have made irresponsible edits to Wikipedia.

I edit responsibly, have never made any foolish changes or vandalism. I do not want my own name associated with vandalism. Is there a way where the ip address I am contacting from is required to log-in with an account prior to editing any pages? --Kyanwan (talk) 21:11, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Nobody (except for checkusers) will even be able to tie the IP to your account, and they would recognize that it is a shared IP and thus ignore it. If the disruption becomes too severe, the IP may be blocked, but you would still be able to edit by logging in. Cheers! Reaper Eternal (talk) 21:18, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Why don't graphics show?
I uploaded two graphics and put them into R.W. Dromgold. The frames are there, but I can't see the pix. Can anybody help? Thank you. GeorgeLouis (talk) 21:37, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
 * You uploaded TIFF files which are notoriously buggy due to their lack of standardization. Please reupload as PNG. — Edokter  ( talk ) — 22:23, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Block Own IP?
Any way to block my own IP on Wikipedia? I want to be able to read but not post. Every time I do it I end up being a sad person ... and then a year later I slip up and do it again. Leechblock works great for handling "addiction" problems but it prevents me from reading a site. Yeah, it would be best to remember not to do it, but I found out with Leechblock that having an enforceable reminder really works. MrG 70.56.53.105 (talk) 22:47, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
 * If we could guarantee you have a static IP, an admin could block you. But I'm not sure we can guarantee it, and we can't arbitrarily block IP's who may later (if not static) be perfectly entitled to edit.  fredgandt  22:52, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

No, the admin option wasn't what I was after, I wanted to have the option of blocking myself. I'm not sure that my IP is static so I wasn't sure even that would work. I really do need an automated reminder, though. Probably it would be best to set Leechblock to block me out of Wikipedia at parts of the day and vector me to a reminder page when it's blocked. Thanks. MrG 70.56.53.105 (talk) 22:59, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
 * You could use a userscript to remove the edit links on Wikipedia. — Bility (talk) 23:05, 3 January 2012 (UTC)


 * A user script would be fine for a user, not an IP.  fredgandt  23:07, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I meant from userscripts.org, as in my edit summary. — Bility (talk) 00:19, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Ah sorry. I thought you'd have know better, and you did. My bad.  fredg<i style="color:#0dd;font-size:10px;">andt</i>  00:22, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

I'm just going to set Leechblock to ration me to 15 minutes of Wikipedia access an hour. That gives me enough time to read, but I wouldn't be able to post before the block fell on me. Thanks. MrG 70.56.53.105 (talk) 23:11, 3 January 2012 (UTC)


 * I hope you won't mind the personal observation, but you seem perfectly reasonable to me. There are lots of people who don't edit Wikipedia as well as you have in the last 20 minutes. Whatever you choose, good luck.  f<i style="color:#0dd;font-size:10px;">red</i>g<i style="color:#0dd;font-size:10px;">andt</i>  23:14, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, that's appreciated. The stinger in posting to Wikipedia is that I start out thinking I'm just doing something trivial, but I find myself being dragged into a hell of a row while thinking to myself: "Y'know ... this really isn't worth the bother.  I could be working on my own website." Anyway, out here, thanks for the feedback. The block is just about to descend ... MrG 70.56.53.105 (talk) 00:17, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

FYI, if it's of interest to anyone, there's a simpler way to implement "read not write" with Firefox Leechblock. Leechblock allows blocking on individual pages; block on "en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:" and it allows access to document pages but not their talk pages. MrG 70.56.53.105 (talk) 18:17, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
 * In that case, block "en.wikipedia.org/w/". You will still be able to view pages at "en.wikipedia.org/wiki/" (including talk pages), but won't be able to edit. This also blocks you from seeing history pages and diffs though. — Bility (talk) 18:32, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
 * You can still edit by appending a  to the end of the /wiki/ URL. (For example, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Help_desk?action=edit allows you to edit this page.) Reaper Eternal (talk) 20:15, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Ah! That's good feedback, and fits the spec as stated. However, personally I'd prefer to stay out of the talk pages completely, and that's enough to stop the inclination to alter articles. There's no sense in modifying an article beyond correcting an annoying typo without getting a consensus since it will just be reverted, and my own experience with trying to get a consensus has consistently demonstrated to me that it's vastly more effort than any change I've ever considered was worth. (I suppose "your mileage may vary.") Anyway, thanks for the help. MrG 70.56.53.105 (talk) 19:34, 5 January 2012 (UTC)