Wikipedia:Help desk/Archives/2014 December 13

= December 13 =

Newish student editor needing help
Could someone please have a look at User_talk:Gemayelc? Gemayelc's sig wasn't linking on article talk pages,, so I went to his/her user talk page to help test the sig. I have no idea why his/her sig doesn't link. Could someone walk him/her through it? Sandy Georgia (Talk) 00:43, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Done -- Fauzan  ✆ talk  ✉ mail  08:24, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

Editing validation
If a person edits an article, how is it validated to be true ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.167.129.55 (talk) 01:02, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Hi there - Verifiability should answer many of your questions. In short, additions to articles should be verified through reliable sources. If you take a look at most articles, you'll see superscripted numbers that lead to a list of references at the bottom of the page. These references are typically things like news article, books, interviews, etc. that provide the information you see on Wikipedia. Any reader or editor can verify contributions this way - if something is found to be unsourced and/or questionable, it may be removed. ~ Super  Hamster  Talk Contribs 01:10, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

Fixing a talk page archive bot
I've come across a bunch of talk pages which have archives that aren't listed anywhere. The most recent case is at Talk:Project Appleseed The original script was added here: It was archived for the first time here: Talk:Project Appleseed/Archive 3 I think I see one error: the counter should have started with 1, not 3. But I don't understand why it's not showing up in the template:talk page header, or the archive box, since the title scheme seems correct. Can anyone help me diagnose what's going wrong? Rezin (talk) 01:53, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
 * The archival is done by a bot. I would suggesting addressing the question to the operator of the bot, Σ.  The issue probably has to do with the bot configuration parameters at the top of the talk page.  Robert McClenon (talk) 02:32, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
 * OK, thanks. I wasn't sure if the fault was in the configuration, the bot, or some other factor. I'll contact Σ, who is probably rewarded for his contribution by getting lots of little cries for help like mine. ;) Rezin (talk) 02:39, 13 December 2014 (UTC)


 * The reason the archive wasn't showing up in the archive box was because /Archive_1 didn't exist so it didn't check for /Archive_3 (or even /Archive_2 for that matter). I've moved the archive and cleaned up the call for the bot to archive the page. Happy editing! — &#123;&#123;U&#124;Technical 13&#125;&#125; (e • t • c) 02:50, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

Help:Cite errors/Cite error ref no input
You will have to give us details on what help you need. --  Gadget850talk 04:39, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
 * the OP is probably refering to this page: --Aspro (talk) 06:02, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
 * You need to place the reference between the markup. See here for an example. Help:Referencing_for_beginners. Also, please read Notability--Aspro (talk) 05:58, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

Refusal to add Richard Isaac Fine to Wikipedia in 2009 as a person who is not "noteworthy"
It has just come to my attention that my name was submitted by others to Wikipedia in 2009. The submission was rejected because I was not "noteworthy", i.e., in publications, radio, TV, received awards, held office etc. I am writing to you to express my amused response. Since I have a B.S., Doctor of Law, Ph,D., been a lawyer, written numerous legal articles, been Consul General for the Kingdom of Norway in Los Angeles for Southern California, already am, and have been in Who's Who in America, Who's Who in the World and Who's Who in American Law amongst other "noteworthy" publications for numerous years, have been interviewed by and appeared in numerous publications and on radio and TV for my expertise and have received various awards for my accomplishments, I was quite amused that Wikipedia, a self described un vetted, non journalistic, composition of unknown writers and critics would challenge the determination of "noteworthy" used by established institutions such as Who's Who. Admittedly, "noteworthy" in Who's Who is limited to individuals, while "noteworthy" in Wikipedia is expanded to places such as shopping centers and other inanimate objects. From this expanded definition of "noteworthy" for Wikipedia, one must pose the question of whether a human must also have some form of an inanimate object in him or her to be considered "noteworthy" for Wikipedia? or, Are those who judge the individuals being submitted as being "noteworthy", themselves inanimate objects totally unaware of the world around them. Help Needed: Require any person judging submissions to review Who's Who before determining that a person is not "noteworthy" for Wikipedia. Richard I. Fine — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.69.132.52 (talk) 05:37, 13 December 2014 (UTC)


 * "notable" is essentially a Wiki jargon short hand for everything that is written right here . (or the Cliff's notes version). Having an article on Wikipedia says nothing about real importance or relevance in the world. For example, very few doctors or firefighters or teachers have articles, yet we have an article about this. --  TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom  06:03, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Note that Articles for deletion/Richard Isaac Fine was a complete mess because of offsite canvassing. --Neil N  talk to me 06:13, 13 December 2014 (UTC)


 * The above-mentioned deletion discussion makes it clear that if Richard Fine warrants a Wikipedia article, it is mainly on account of incidents involving his imprisonment. I cannot tell what he was imprisoned for, or form a view on whether it was justified, as the links I have tried to follow no longer work. But I find it odd that he does not mention his main claim to notability in the long paragraph above. Maproom (talk) 09:28, 13 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Also, if the original poster is Richard I. Fine, he has a conflict of interest and should not be involved with his own biography except to request changes on the article talk page. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:45, 13 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Apparently the 2009 discussion here concerning Mr. Fine is not the only example of a body ruling against him.  Dwpaul   Talk   23:04, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

Richard I. Fine responds:

This is not a "conflict of interest" as I was not the original poster. In fact, I was illegally incarcerated in solitary, coercive confinement in the LA County Jail from March 4, 2009 until September 17, 2010 which was the time period that the original posting was discussed.

Further, I am not advocating for my inclusion in Wikipedia. I am only registering my amusement at the process and recommending that the editors look to reputable sources. Here it is clear from the discussion to delete the article, the editors did not consider CNN interview, the National Review article, the American Thinker article, the California Journal article, and other reputable journalistic sources which discussed the approximate $350 million in illegal payments to the California state judges by counties appearing before them as parties causing the judicial corruption occurring at the time, the judges, the counties and the county employees being given retroactive immunity from California criminal prosecution, civil liability and disciplinary action under Section 5, of SBX 2 11 for having taken and being paid such monies by counties and the retaliation against me for exposing and fighting such corruption resulting in the illegal incarceration and illegal disbarment.

I am only registering my amusement at the process and recommending that the editors look to reputable sources.

Additionally, any person viewing my life and legal accomplishments would find such things as: (1) conducting grand jury investigation of international pulp, paper and newsprint cartel, representing the Department of Justice for the first time in Tariff Commission [now International Trade Commission] hearing and indicting GM and Ford for price fixing while a prosecutor in the U.S. Department of Justice Antitrust Division; (2) investigating the former Mayor of the City of Los Angeles for Corruption (Special Counsel to LA City Counsel Governmental Efficiency Committee);(3) founding the first municipal antitrust division in the United States for the City of Los Angeles; 4) changing the way United Way deals with donations to require it to allow donors to designate where their donations should go (AID v. United Way et al.); (5) defending and litigating charitable trust case creating RP International (RP v. RP International); (6) bringing and litigating the lawsuit against OPEC (IAM v. OPEC); (7) bringing and litigating the lawsuit to compensate purchasers in Lake Havasu; first time settlement was used for "public good" (MacNoye et al. v. MCO); (8)bringing and litigating the lawsuit which changed the workings of the California service industry to require fair payment for servicers (CSEA v. Matsushita et al.); (9) reorganizing a worldwide Japanese religion (Imuta v. Nakano); (10) litigating lawsuit on behalf of the Republic of the Gambia to enforce the Treaty of Vienna after the United States seized its diplomat in Switzerland and brought him to the United States for trial(U.S. v. Sissoko); (11) bringing and litigating lawsuit to return approximately $71 million plus interest from the Insurance Reserve Fund and transferred to other funds by the State of California Dept. of Veterans Affairs resulting in a 500% increase in insurance premiums for veterans who have Cal Vet mortgages (Debbs et al., v. Dept. of Veterans Affairs); (12) bringing and litigating a series of lawsuits returning and saving approximately $1 Billion to California taxpayers from monies taken by the State, counties and cities of California from trust funds and special funds (Malibu Video Systems et al. v. Hayes et al.; Veltman v. California State Lands Commission; Amjadi and LACAOEHS v. County of Los Angeles Board of Supervisors et al., and others in a series of cases); (13)bringing and litigating the lawsuit which resulted in changing the City of Los Angeles' method of calculating sewer service charges (Shinkle et al., v. City of Los Angeles; (14)bringing and litigating the lawsuits which resulted in closing the California government, stopping 26 years of budget crises and winning the case in the California Supreme Court holding that a government cannot pay anyone without an appropriation (White v. Davis et al., Howard Jarvis Taxpayers Association v. Westly et al.); (15) bringing and litigating the first terrorist shooting at a U.S. airport (Hen et al., v. Hedeyat and the City of Los Angeles); (16) bringing and litigating the lawsuit to require the LA District Attorney to pay $14 million to mothers and children in support money that he was illegally holding (Silva v. Garcetti); (17) bringing and litigating lawsuits to preserve the Long Beach Naval Station (Howser v. City of Long Beach; Cantrell et al v. City of Long Beach); (18)bringing and litigating lawsuits against district attorneys and casinos in Nevada for prosecuting people who did not pay their "markers" (lead case Fleeger v. Caesars Palace et al.); (19) bringing and litigating lawsuit against California for not paying small and minority businesses during budget crises (Lido Financial Services v. State of California);(20) exposing and bringing lawsuits against California judges for taking illegal payments from counties who were appearing before them in cases (LACAOEHS v. County of Los Angeles et al., and Silva v. County of Los Angeles et al.); (21) bringing and litigating series of lawsuits against LA County and developers to declare LA County leases in Marina Del Rey, California unconstitutional and obtain  $700 million in lost revenue for the LA County taxpayers (lead case Coalition to Save the Marina and Marina Tenants Association et al., v. County of Los Angeles et al.); (22) litigating lawsuit to enforce writ of mandate against City of Los Angeles and uncovered illegal lobbyist payments to City Council members requiring their recusal from voting on development (Grassroots Coalition et al., v. City of Los Angeles); and (23) bringing and litigating lawsuit to stop redevelopment of 200 plus unit apartment complex in Marina Del Rey, California into 500 plus unit apartment complex when developer made contributions to two LA County Supervisors within six weeks of the LA County Supervisors vote, the contributions were concealed, the two supervisors illegally voted, the project passed due to these illegal votes, the County made illegal payments to the judge, the judge and the County concealed the illegal payments and the judge ultimately admitted to the illegal payments, was disqualified, refused to leave the case, entered an illegal judgment, an illegal contempt order, illegally approved the project, later admitted that he made an illegal order and ultimately it was admitted that he was biased against counsel for petitioner who he illegally incarcerated for violation of the illegal contempt order. (Marina Strand Colony II Homeowners Association v. County of Los Angeles et al.)

As one may determine, the imprisonment was not the most "noteworthy" part of my career. Its importance was that it reflected the largest judicial scandal in American history and the political retaliation for exposing the $350 million of illegal payments taken by the California state judges from counties appearing before them in cases.

The imprisonment was caused by Judge David P. Yaffe who admitted in open court that he was taking payments from Los Angeles County, the Respondent in the case of Marina Strand Colony II Homeowners Association v. County of Los Angeles. Judge Yaffe refused to get off the case after I disqualified him. He then entered an illegal judgment and then held me in contempt when I refused to give financial information to enforce the judgment. Judge Yaffe and all the judges who received the illegal payments from counties received retroactive immunity from California criminal prosecution, civil liability and disciplinary action under Section 5 of California law SBX 2 11 enacted 2/20/2009, before he ordered me to jail on 3/4/2009.

Subsequently, on July 10, 2010, Judge Yaffe admitted in court papers that an order that he stated he made on 3/18/2008 stating that I could not challenge him, was never made. The U.S. Supreme Court did nothing upon receiving this information of a "fraud upon the court". The U.S. District Court delayed until I was out of jail and then did nothing stating that the issue was moot.

In December 2012, Alan Parachini, the retired LA Superior Court Public Information Officer admitted in an interview with Leslie Dutton of the Full Disclosure Network that the LA Superior Court judges told him in 2002 that they had a a "visceral hatred" against me, wanted "revenge" against me, wanted to "silence" me and wanted to "take me out of communication" for my keeping the issue of the illegal payments before the courts and the legislature.

The LA Superior Court, Judge Yaffe, the LA County Sheriff Baca and their lawyers concealed from the U.S. District Court, the 9th Circuit and the U.S. Supreme Court that Judge Yaffe and the LA Superior Court judges had a "visceral hatred" against me, wanted "revenge" against me, wanted to "silence" me and wanted to "take me out of communication" as shown in court papers filed in the U.S. District Court and the 9th Circuit in 2013. These actions were a "fraud upon the court" and violations of the due process clause of the U.S. Constitution and U.S. Supreme Court precedent. The U.S. District Court and the 9th Circuit Court refused to follow U.S. Supreme Court precedent and overturn the denial of the writ of habeas corpus. The U.S. Supreme Court refused to follow its own precedent and file the motion to set aside its denial of certiorari.

These actions confirmed the corruption of both the judges in the California and U.S. judicial systems as none of the decisions were certified to be precedents and only applied to me. The Wikipedia editor Dwpaul#000666 who writes that:"Apparently the 2009 discussion here concerning Mr. Fine is not the only example of a body ruling against him." is an example of lack of research.

If Dwpaul#000666 had adequately performed his research, he would have found the above information regarding the habeas corpus case after the U.S. Supreme Court decision and the interview with Alan Parachini, the retired LA Superior Court Public Information Officer in December, 2012 on the Full Disclosure Network in which he admitted to the bias of the LA Superior Court judges and Judge Yaffe against me since 2002 when the LA Superior Court judges informed him of such.

Additionally, Dwpaul#000666 would have found that in 2011, the State Bar Court and State Bar Court judges admitted in a 9th Circuit brief in the case of Fine v. State Bar of California et al., that the reason for the disbarment was my bringing of cases against the judges for taking the illegal payments from counties and not the reasons stated in the State Bar Court Review Decision cited by Dwpaul#000666.

Further research would have revealed that in 2012 and 2013, I brought three motions to set aside the Disbarment in the California Supreme Court on the grounds of "fraud upon the court", each of which the State Bar did not oppose. The California Supreme Court summarily denied the motions, despite the refusal of the State Bar to oppose the motions and despite California Rule of Court 8.54(c) which states: "A failure to oppose a motion may be deemed a consent to the granting of the motion."

These actions by the California Supreme Court justices further showed their bias and hatred as they worked to protect the judges, including some of their own, who received retroactive immunity from criminal prosecution under Section 5 of SBX 2 11 for taking illegal payments from counties and the approximately 90% of the California Superior Court judges who currently receive such illegal payments without any immunity from criminal prosecution.

Finally, in 2010, the NGO Human Rights Alert brought the problems of the California and federal courts and my case to the UN Council on Human Rights which referred to the problems in a footnote in the 2010 staff report on the United States. Hopefully, you may now understand my amusement. If the research conducted by Dwpaul#000666 is any indication of the level of research of Wikipedia "award winning" first class editors, my comments on the quality should be taken very seriously.

Finally, it is clear that I am not as "notable" as Paris Hilton who was used as an example of a "notable" person, nor do I wish to acquire such level of notoriety.

I prefer to be known for my accomplishments. One of which is exposing, litigating and eradicating judicial corruption so that no one will be victimized by corrupt judges. In this regard, I am the Chairman and Founder of the Campaign for Judicial Integrity, a national grassroots organization dedicated to eradicating judicial corruption and restoring our constitutional rights to due process and a fair trial.

In deleting material from this response, Wikipedia deleted the response to its editors Maproom and Dwpaul#000666 depriving the reader of the opportunity to read and evaluate this complete post. The following is the relevant deleted portion.

"Additionally, any person viewing my life and legal accomplishments would find such things as: (1) conducting grand jury investigation of international pulp, paper and newsprint cartel, representing the Department of Justice for the first time in Tariff Commission [now International Trade Commission] hearing and indicting GM and Ford for price fixing while a prosecutor in the U.S. Department of Justice Antitrust Division; (2) investigating the former Mayor of the City of Los Angeles for Corruption (Special Counsel to LA City Counsel Governmental Efficiency Committee);(3) founding the first municipal antitrust division in the United States for the City of Los Angeles; 4) changing the way United Way deals with donations to require it to allow donors to designate where their donations should go (AID v. United Way et al.); (5) defending and litigating charitable trust case creating RP International (RP v. RP International); (6) bringing and litigating the lawsuit against OPEC (IAM v. OPEC); (7) bringing and litigating the lawsuit to compensate purchasers in Lake Havasu; first time settlement was used for "public good" (MacNoye et al. v. MCO); (8)bringing and litigating the lawsuit which changed the workings of the California service industry to require fair payment for servicers (CSEA v. Matsushita et al.); (9) reorganizing a worldwide Japanese religion (Imuta v. Nakano); (10) litigating lawsuit on behalf of the Republic of the Gambia to enforce the Treaty of Vienna after the United States seized its diplomat in Switzerland and brought him to the United States for trial(U.S. v. Sissoko); (11) bringing and litigating lawsuit to return approximately $71 million plus interest from the Insurance Reserve Fund and transferred to other funds by the State of California Dept. of Veterans Affairs resulting in a 500% increase in insurance premiums for veterans who have Cal Vet mortgages (Debbs et al., v. Dept. of Veterans Affairs); (12) bringing and litigating a series of lawsuits returning and saving approximately $1 Billion to California taxpayers from monies taken by the State, counties and cities of California from trust funds and special funds (Malibu Video Systems et al. v. Hayes et al.; Veltman v. California State Lands Commission; Amjadi and LACAOEHS v. County of Los Angeles Board of Supervisors et al., and others in a series of cases); (13)bringing and litigating the lawsuit which resulted in changing the City of Los Angeles' method of calculating sewer service charges (Shinkle et al., v. City of Los Angeles; (14)bringing and litigating the lawsuits which resulted in closing the California government, stopping 26 years of budget crises and winning the case in the California Supreme Court holding that a government cannot pay anyone without an appropriation (White v. Davis et al., Howard Jarvis Taxpayers Association v. Westly et al.); (15) bringing and litigating the first terrorist shooting at a U.S. airport (Hen et al., v. Hedeyat and the City of Los Angeles); (16) bringing and litigating the lawsuit to require the LA District Attorney to pay $14 million to mothers and children in support money that he was illegally holding (Silva v. Garcetti); (17) bringing and litigating lawsuits to preserve the Long Beach Naval Station (Howser v. City of Long Beach; Cantrell et al v. City of Long Beach); (18)bringing and litigating lawsuits against district attorneys and casinos in Nevada for prosecuting people who did not pay their "markers" (lead case Fleeger v. Caesars Palace et al.); (19) bringing and litigating lawsuit against California for not paying small and minority businesses during budget crises (Lido Financial Services v. State of California);(20) exposing and bringing lawsuits against California judges for taking illegal payments from counties who were appearing before them in cases (LACAOEHS v. County of Los Angeles et al., and Silva v. County of Los Angeles et al.); (21) bringing and litigating series of lawsuits against LA County and developers to declare LA County leases in Marina Del Rey, California unconstitutional and obtain $700 million in lost revenue for the LA County taxpayers (lead case Coalition to Save the Marina and Marina Tenants Association et al., v. County of Los Angeles et al.); (22) litigating lawsuit to enforce writ of mandate against City of Los Angeles and uncovered illegal lobbyist payments to City Council members requiring their recusal from voting on development (Grassroots Coalition et al., v. City of Los Angeles); and (23) bringing and litigating lawsuit to stop redevelopment of 200 plus unit apartment complex in Marina Del Rey, California into 500 plus unit apartment complex when developer made contributions to two LA County Supervisors within six weeks of the LA County Supervisors vote, the contributions were concealed, the two supervisors illegally voted, the project passed due to these illegal votes, the County made illegal payments to the judge, the judge and the County concealed the illegal payments and the judge ultimately admitted to the illegal payments, was disqualified, refused to leave the case, entered an illegal judgment, an illegal contempt order, illegally approved the project, later admitted that he made an illegal order and ultimately it was admitted that he was biased against counsel for petitioner who he illegally incarcerated for violation of the illegal contempt order. (Marina Strand Colony II Homeowners Association v. County of Los Angeles et al.)

As one may determine, the imprisonment was not the most "noteworthy" part of my career. Its importance was that it reflected the largest judicial scandal in American history and the political retaliation for exposing the $350 million of illegal payments taken by the California state judges from counties appearing before them in cases.

The imprisonment was caused by Judge David P. Yaffe who admitted in open court that he was taking payments from Los Angeles County, the Respondent in the case of Marina Strand Colony II Homeowners Association v. County of Los Angeles. Judge Yaffe refused to get off the case after I disqualified him. He then entered an illegal judgment and then held me in contempt when I refused to give financial information to enforce the judgment. Judge Yaffe and all the judges who received the illegal payments from counties received retroactive immunity from California criminal prosecution, civil liability and disciplinary action under Section 5 of California law SBX 2 11 enacted 2/20/2009, before he ordered me to jail on 3/4/2009.

Subsequently, on July 10, 2010, Judge Yaffe admitted in court papers that an order that he stated he made on 3/18/2008 stating that I could not challenge him, was never made. The U.S. Supreme Court did nothing upon receiving this information of a "fraud upon the court". The U.S. District Court delayed until I was out of jail and then did nothing stating that the issue was moot.

In December 2012, Alan Parachini, the retired LA Superior Court Public Information Officer admitted in an interview with Leslie Dutton of the Full Disclosure Network that the LA Superior Court judges told him in 2002 that they had a a "visceral hatred" against me, wanted "revenge" against me, wanted to "silence" me and wanted to "take me out of communication" for my keeping the issue of the illegal payments before the courts and the legislature.

The LA Superior Court, Judge Yaffe, the LA County Sheriff Baca and their lawyers concealed from the U.S. District Court, the 9th Circuit and the U.S. Supreme Court that Judge Yaffe and the LA Superior Court judges had a "visceral hatred" against me, wanted "revenge" against me, wanted to "silence" me and wanted to "take me out of communication" as shown in court papers filed in the U.S. District Court and the 9th Circuit in 2013. These actions were a "fraud upon the court" and violations of the due process clause of the U.S. Constitution and U.S. Supreme Court precedent. The U.S. District Court and the 9th Circuit Court refused to follow U.S. Supreme Court precedent and overturn the denial of the writ of habeas corpus. The U.S. Supreme Court refused to follow its own precedent and file the motion to set aside its denial of certiorari.

These actions confirmed the corruption of both the judges in the California and U.S. judicial systems as none of the decisions were certified to be precedents and only applied to me.

The Wikipedia editor Dwpaul#000666 who writes that:"Apparently the 2009 discussion here concerning Mr. Fine is not the only example of a body ruling against him." is an example of lack of research.

If Dwpaul#000666 had adequately performed his research, he would have found the above information regarding the habeas corpus case after the U.S. Supreme Court decision and the interview with Alan Parachini, the retired LA Superior Court Public Information Officer in December, 2012 on the Full Disclosure Network in which he admitted to the bias of the LA Superior Court judges and Judge Yaffe against me since 2002 when the LA Superior Court judges informed him of such.

Additionally, Dwpaul#000666 would have found that in 2011, the State Bar Court and State Bar Court judges admitted in a 9th Circuit brief in the case of Fine v. State Bar of California et al., that the reason for the disbarment was my bringing of cases against the judges for taking the illegal payments from counties and not the reasons stated in the State Bar Court Review Decision cited by Dwpaul#000666.

Further research would have revealed that in 2012 and 2013, I brought three motions to set aside the Disbarment in the California Supreme Court on the grounds of "fraud upon the court", each of which the State Bar did not oppose. The California Supreme Court summarily denied the motions, despite the refusal of the State Bar to oppose the motions and despite California Rule of Court 8.54(c) which states: "A failure to oppose a motion may be deemed a consent to the granting of the motion."

These actions by the California Supreme Court justices further showed their bias and hatred as they worked to protect the judges, including some of their own, who received retroactive immunity from criminal prosecution under Section 5 of SBX 2 11 for taking illegal payments from counties and the approximately 90% of the California Superior Court judges who currently receive such illegal payments without any immunity from criminal prosecution.

Finally, in 2010, the NGO Human Rights Alert brought the problems of the California and federal courts and my case to the UN Council on Human Rights which referred to the problems in a footnote in the 2010 staff report on the United States.

Hopefully, you may now understand my amusement. If the research conducted by Dwpaul#000666 is any indication of the level of research of Wikipedia "award winning" first class editors, my comments on the quality should be taken very seriously.

Finally, it is clear that I am not as "notable" as Paris Hilton who was used as an example of a "notable" person, nor do I wish to acquire such level of notoriety.

I prefer to be known for my accomplishments. One of which is exposing, litigating and eradicating judicial corruption so that no one will be victimized by corrupt judges. In this regard, I am the Chairman and Founder of the Campaign for Judicial Integrity [6], a national grassroots organization dedicated to eradicating judicial corruption and restoring our constitutional rights to due process and a fair trial." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.69.132.52 (talk) 06:50, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

Whether or not he is worthy for inclusion, I found that long wall of text to be an interesting read. He certainly writes himself off as a hero of the people, though I'm not going to look further into that to see if his statements are completely factual. Tharthandorf Aquanashi (talk) 05:21, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Tharthan Aquanashi exemplifies my point, by admitting he was not going to "fact check" my statements. The Wiki editors did not check out the facts when they elected to delete the article. Had they done so, they would have found confirmation in independent journalistic articles: (1) CNN which did an interview with me while I was incarcerated in the LA County Jail in 2010 and in which Judge Yaffe refused to be interviewed and the State Bar representative made statements which the State Bar later proved to be false by not opposing the motions to set aside the disbarment; (2) the National Review which did an online article in 2010; (3) The California Law Journal which did an award winning article in 2010; (4) The American Thinker which did an article in 2010; (5) the Argonaut which did an article in 2011 and (6) most recently a two part interview by DivorceCorp on YouTube in October, 2014, amongst numerous other articles and interviews. 99.69.132.52 (talk) 23:54, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

No judge or court or county representative other than Alan Parachini ever consented to be interviewed; nor has any representative of any court or county challenged any fact. As shown by his interview with the Full Disclosure Network submitted to the courts, the LA Superior Court judges and Judge Yaffe had a "viceral hatred" against me; wanted "revenge" aganst me; wanted to "silence" me and wanted "to take me out of communication" for my keeping the illegal county payments to the judges before the courts and the Legislature. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.69.132.52 (talk) 23:39, 15 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia is not the place to right great wrongs. Regardless of what happened, this is not the place to plead your case. &mdash;  The Hand That Feeds You :Bite 13:22, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

Richard Fine responds:

Unfortunately, "The Hand That Feeds You" did not read the contents of his/her citation to "Wikipedia Is Not The Place To Right Great Wrongs." before making his/her statement. Such citation states in substance that Wikipedia "follows" published articles and materials, etc. by others and does not engage in original research. My above post refers to published articles by the National Review, the American Thinker, the California Journal and the Argonaut newspaper and interviews by CNN and the "Emmy" nominated Full Disclosure Network.

The thrust of my post was my amusement "at the [Wikipedia] process and recommending that the editors look to reputable sources." My comment follows the content of the guideline "Wikipedia is not the place to right great wrongs." The Wikipedia editors did not follow this guideline in rejecting the original submission.

I reiterate, that I was not involved in the original submission and I am not advocating for it being in Wikipedia. The publication of the submission in any form is a decision for credible, identifiable, objective, Wikipedia editors after an open, objective, discussion and review of published sources in accordance with established objective procedures.

I am however interested in protecting my reputation from any slurs or derogatory statements from anonymous sources given the defamation and damage which has already occurred due to the illegal retaliatory actions of the judges. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.69.132.52 (talk) 21:40, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
 * You have made extensive arguments here, too extensive for someone to read without a solid block of time. Having time, I could not find anything that you cite from secondary sources.  You provide numerous case citations, for example, but I didn't see publications that rely on those, such as books, academic journals, or retrospective articles in the journalistic media.  I have searched Google for all of these publications that you claim exist (example), but several only return results for this page, the Wikipedia help desk.  The exceptions, searches for CNN and the FDN, return other results, but they're not reliable sources, and I'm not finding the original sources.  You absolutely must provide evidence that those sources exist in the first place.  What's more, your descriptions make them all sound like news articles about you.  When a news story covers an event that just happened, or covers something about what you've just done, it's a primary source; we need secondary sources to satisfy our inclusion standards.  Nyttend (talk) 21:58, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

Richard Fine responds:

"Nytend" has just proven my observation about the inadequacy of the Wikipedia process by insisting that I refer to "secondary sources", which by the Wikipedia definition and any other definition are inherently unreliable as they are not the "primary" or original source. No reputable journalist or academic would accept a "secondary" source as credible. As we all know, court's call statements from secondary sources "hearsay" and inadmissible evidence as being out of court statements submitted for the truth of the matter stated. Yet Nytend states: "We need secondary sources to satisfy our inclusion standards." Such a criterion demonstrates that any Wikipedia posting fulfilling such criterion of relying upon "secondary sources" is inherently unreliable.

At the same time, Nytend rejects: (1) case citations which refer to cases that can be found in original reliable sources of published reports, unpublished reports and court records; (2) well known publications which do to his lack of ability to perform research he cannot find, i.e., the National Review, The American Thinker, the California Journal and the Argonaut which exists in Marina Del Rey, California, - he/she only found the Argonaut in San Francisco according to his/her post; and (3) CNN and Full Disclosure Network on camera interviews with their sources which Nytend called "unreliable".

With respect to Nytend's judgment of "unreliable", it cannot be used against CNN or the Full Disclosure Network as their interviewees were on camera. This leaves Nytend in the position of labeling the interviewee as "unreliable" without any reason or justification, and further which determination is beyond the intent of "reliability" as expressed in the publication guideline referring to "reliable sources".

As one may determine, with each Wikipedia editor's comment, my amusement grows as I find the Wikipedia editors have not read the Wikipedia guidelines upon which they rely. I should state, I have nothing against Wikipedia. However, as a sometimes user of Wikipedia, I like all users of Wikipedia have an interest in Wikipedia adhering to an established, credible, objective process and "getting it right" when Wikipedia publishes a post.


 * Wikipedia is neither a newspaper nor academic journal but an encyclopedia. So it is not our function  give our own interpretation of primary sources. However,  have you thought of becoming a Wikipedia editor? With your background and writing skills, you could make a useful contribution in our effort  to making knowledge freely available to all - pro bono so to speak.--Aspro (talk) 01:40, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
 * I agree with Aspro. As someone who has assembled pages on articles in other encyclopedias, like those at Category:WikiProject lists of encyclopedic articles, and looked over some of the redlinks in some of them, I know that there are several articles of established notability which have been deleted. I also know, unfortunately, that, given the nature of development of wikipedia over the years, and the greater access to and awareness of resources that editors in general have now, it is generally much easier for us to check sources now. Even with the greater ease, however, there are still times when, for whatever reasons, the individuals who might hope to "rescue" articles considered for deletion don't have the time or energy or resources to do so. We could always use more editors, particularly ones who have access to resources. John Carter (talk) 02:21, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Richard Fine responds:

I never thought that this post would result in an invitation to become a Wikipedia editor.

I reviewed the User pages of Aspro and John Carter and each of you appear to be the type of editor who is outside the category of my "amusement'.

I am delighted to accept your invitation with the caveat that I do not know how much time I can contribute. At this point, I should disclose that my B.S. was from the University of Wisconsin, the Doctor of Law from the University of Chicago Law School and the Ph.D. in Law field of International Law from the University of London, London School of Economics and Political Science. I also hold a Higher Diploma of Comparative Law from the International Faculty for the Teaching of Comparative Law, Strasbourg, a Certificate of Comparative Law from the International University of Comparative Science, Luxembourg and Certificates of Public and Private International Law from the Hague Academy of International Law.

This information in addition my practicing antitrust, international, class action, and numerous other areas of law and now strategic consulting combined with being Consul General for the Kingdom of Norway may assist you in determining those areas in which I may be most helpful to Wikipedia.

My final caveat is that I only wish to engage in constructive conversation leading to a resolution of an issue. I am not interested derogatory comments or remarks, unless they are laced with humor of Oscar Wilde, Winston Churchill, or other "notables" of that caliber.

With those caveats, I look forward to working with you as an editor in the areas where my background and skills are needed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.69.132.52 (talk) 03:36, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Which template?
Which one puts up a notice pointing to a more complete article in the Portuguese Wikipedia (for Paco Bandeira)? Never mind. I found it. Clarityfiend (talk) 08:55, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

Notifications
I have just spent five minutes trying to find the WP Help on sending messages to users but all I can find is help on the contacting system and how messages are received, but nothing on how to send messages. I usually use the P-123 method and have just been told by one user that they don't get notified if I leave this kind of message for them on the main article Talk page and only pick it up when they next go to the Talk page, but if I use the method they will get notified. No user has said this before. I often leave messages for users on main article Talk pages using the first method and am not aware if they receive notifications. If I use the first method on user Talk pages, there is never any difficulty with notifications, as I can get replies to messages immediately. Also, I assume that notifiying a user with a redlinked name does not work using any method and that they can only be contacted on their Talk page. Can you please explain how notification works using these or other methods and say where in the Help pages I will find this information? Btw, locating help in the WP Help pages is a major problem and the Help Desk is usually the first resort, not the last. ~ P-123 (talk) 09:33, 13 December 2014 (UTC)


 * If I want to leave a message for an editor, I put it on their talk page. If that doesn't work, probably nothing will. There are other methods, which as you have found may or may not work, depending on the editor, on how they have (perhaps inadvertently) set their user settings, and maybe other things. Maproom (talk) 09:37, 13 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Agreed that Help can be hard to find. There is a Wikipedia project for improving help pages; perhaps that's one of the things they're looking at, I don't know. But I haven't seen any Help desk responders biting people for coming here first.


 * The tricky thing about notifications is that they don't work unless you include your signature in the same edit as the notification template or link. If you forget to sign, the notification doesn't get delivered, even if you do another edit and add your signature. What you have to do in that case is do another edit and code the template/link again and sign in that edit. Happy notifications! &#8209;&#8209; Mandruss  &#9742;  09:52, 13 December 2014 (UTC)


 * The ping template is just another way to create a link to an editor's user page. It should work just as well as the P-123 method. And I believe the notification works even when the link is a red link - TheRedPenOfDoom will be able to confirm this. -- John of Reading (talk) 09:55, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks to all. I had forgotten that user settings can affect this.  I always make sure to include signature in the same edit.  Where in the Help pages are notifications covered?  I found two places but there was no help on sending, only receiving.  ~ P-123 (talk) 10:00, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes I get a pings even without having a user page (if people use the template correctly, sign and the formal CamelCaseNoSpace spelling of my user name. I think a lot of people may try and ping me and and it doesnt work because of a misspelling of my actual username or they use the name as it appears in the sig.) -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom  18:30, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
 * The only such help I'm aware of (and there's a vast universe I'm not aware of) is the doc for the individual templates, such as Template:Ping and Template:User. &#8209;&#8209; Mandruss  &#9742;  10:07, 13 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Someone has thoughtfully set up a redirect so that "Help:Notifications" takes you to the documentation. -- John of Reading (talk) 10:34, 13 December 2014 (UTC)


 * It makes no difference to write User:P-123 or use a template which produces that. You didn't sign [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Islamic_State_of_Iraq_and_the_Levant&diff=prev&oldid=637643236] so it didn't cause a notification. Which page have you seen about receiving notifications without mentioning that you have to sign the edit? PrimeHunter (talk) 13:33, 13 December 2014 (UTC)


 * PrimeHunter: Well spotted.  I thought I always signed.  I knew that a signature is always needed, so was not checking about that. ~ P-123 (talk) 18:16, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia in polytonic Greek orthography
The editors of the Greek language Wikipedia (el.wikipedia.org) have disallowed the use of polytonic Greek orthography, i.e., spelling which uses diacritics.

They consistently delete any contributions written in modern Greek with polytonic Greek orthography.

Polytonic Greek orthography is still used by a significant number of modern Greek writers. A large number of modern Greek language books are published every year using polytonic Greek orthography (e.g., see here http://www.tovima.gr/books-ideas/article/?aid=615123).

I would therefore like to ask if it were possible to create a Modern Greek language Wikipedia, which would use "polytonic Greek orthography".

What procedure should be followed ?

Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Polytonist (talk • contribs) 12:13, 13 December 2014 (UTC)


 * I think you should start at meta:Requests for new languages. -- John of Reading (talk) 12:24, 13 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Such a thing wouldn't be unprecedented (there are two Norwegian Wikipedias, one in Nynorsk and the other in Bokmål), but to have a separate polytonic Wikipedia created, you'd need to demonstrate extensive usage and/or dispute, comparable to the Norwegian language conflict that was the reason for two Norwegian Wikipedias. Nyttend (talk) 23:57, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
 * The information on this, at least in the English Language Wikipedia is at Greek_diacritics.Naraht (talk) 15:55, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

Watchlist notice disappearing
There's currently a watchlist notice set, but because I hit the "close" button some time ago, it disappears before I can read it. Since there's no "open" button, I can't reverse myself easily. Is there any other way to reverse it? I would check the MW: page with the contents of the notice, but I don't know what the name of the notice is, and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Watchlist?uselang=qqx doesn't help. Nyttend (talk) 13:01, 13 December 2014 (UTC)


 * At https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Watchlist?uselang=qqx I see "(watchlist-details: 5,827)", and MediaWiki:watchlist-details shows the notice displayed on my watchlist: "Please vote on tools or gadgets that you want the Wikimedia Foundation to improve. This is pilot for a larger survey coming in Q3. The WMF will consider results when planning the product roadmap for future quarters. Learn about the privacy practices and terms for this third party survey here." PrimeHunter (talk) 13:21, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

Air turbine fuel and Jet fuel
Are 'Air Turbine Fuel' and 'Jet fuel' one and the same? 117.216.137.164 (talk) 14:12, 13 December 2014 (UTC)


 * One of the branches of the Wikipedia Reference Desk, probably the Science Desk, might be able to answer your question. Robert McClenon (talk) 14:25, 13 December 2014 (UTC)


 * You could also try an iterative Google-search on the terms. FYI, Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 19:18, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

Local School Network Article deleted
I have had an article I created deleted. I wish to appeal aginst this decision. How do I do it? I am particualarly concerned because I put forward what I believed were cgent arguments to the effect that it ought not to be deleted on the talk page associated with this article: Thee have not been responded to but the talk page has also been deleted. This smacks of unaccountable censorship. Further is there a way I can recover the deleted text?

Daithidebarra (talk) 19:05, 13 December 2014 (UTC)


 * It may be that the article was simply not ready for the main article space. You can request that the article be restored in "draft" form and placed in your userspace.  The place to request this is WP:REFUND.  If you want to read more about doing this sort of thing, see Userfication, and it's a common way we can deal with stuff that isn't ready for public consumption, but still needs some work.  Good luck!  Also, as an aside, please do not call the actions of others "unaccountable censorship".  It's rude, and does not assume good faith on the actions of others.  Instead, accept that other people are working to make Wikipedia better as you are, and that sometimes there's a difference of opinion.  Regardless, use WP:REFUND to get your text back, work on the article until it is up to minimum standards and then move it back to the article space.  It's a simple fix, and does not require anyone to say mean things about anyone else.  -- Jayron  32  19:41, 13 December 2014 (UTC)


 * The article in question was Local Schools Network. The deletion reason is that it, although the subject of the article was eligible for inclusion, it did not provide evidence of notability.  See A7 at criteria for speedy deletion.  As Jayron32 says, you can request undeletion to move the article to your user space.  As Jayron32 says, referring to "censorship" is both seldom accurate and seldom collaborative, and the administrators who speedy delete articles are accountable.  Robert McClenon (talk) 21:34, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

I want to protect a page
I want to protect the page of our Club. What I shall do? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vittoriosastars (talk • contribs) 21:53, 13 December 2014 (UTC)


 * See WP:RPP as the page to use to request page protection.  Dwpaul   Talk   22:00, 13 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Please don't even try. Many new editors don't understand that Wikipedia is an encyclopedia with neutrally written articles.  You refer to "your club", which means that you have a conflict of interest and should not edit the article, but only comment on its talk page.  Also, if you are requesting to "protect" your page, you may mean that you want it locked in your version.  Some new editors make that request, but that would be granting them ownership of the article, and Wikipedia does not work that way.  Robert McClenon (talk) 22:07, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

Open support of terrorism
Hi, where should I report if a user is openly supports a terrorist organization, responsible for ethnic and political cleansings? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Виктор Ш. (talk • contribs) 22:46, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Does the editor state that he or she supports a terrorist organization, or is that an inference on your part? If the editor makes that statement, is it in Wikipedia space, that is, on a user page, a user talk page, or an article talk page?  I don't see any policy about what to do in that case, but if you know that the editor is a terrorist, then one possibility would be to treat support of terrorism as a threat to injure other people, and to email emergency@wikimedia.org.  However, your opinion of whether a particular organization is terrorist is not necessarily that of the WMF.  That is my thought for now.  In any case, do not call attention to the support.  If you merely think that the editor supports terrorism, remember that calling an editor a terrorist-supporter is a very strong personal attack.  Someone else may have better advice.  Robert McClenon (talk) 23:00, 13 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Where should you report it? Quite probably, nowhere. Wikipedia contributors have a diversity of opinions - including no doubt what constitutes a 'terrorist organization'. If you have issues about specific activities on Wikipedia it may be appropriate, after first discussing them with the contributor, to ask for assistance either through Dispute resolution procedures if this is a content dispute, or possibly at Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents if this is a serious issue concerning behaviour that cannot be resolved elsewhere. You should be aware however that merely accusing an individual of 'supporting terrorism' is likely to have no other effect than sanctions against yourself, and that if you make assertions that an individual is editing Wikipedia in a manner that supports terrorism your own behaviour is very likely to also become the focus of attention - and accordingly you will need very strong grounds to do so. I would strongly recommend that you avoid making assumptions and/or assertions regarding what you think the motivations of other contributors are, and instead concentrate solely on what matters to Wikipedia - the creation of properly-sourced and neutral encyclopaedic content. AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:15, 13 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Considering you make statements like "The article lacks info about NATO's support of terrorism in Lybia, Syria, Iraq and the Ukraine" [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:NATO&diff=prev&oldid=624199404] I suspect this is just a content dispute and not something to report anywhere. PrimeHunter (talk) 00:39, 14 December 2014 (UTC)


 * For better or worse, if your opinion is that NATO is a terrorist organization, you are unlikely to find much support in many Anglophone countries. If there is a content dispute, please read dispute resolution, which offers several procedures, but ones that are unlikely to help you "win" an argument that NATO is a terrorist organization.  You might be better off in finding a Wikipedia in a language whose culture is more anti-NATO, such as the Russian Wikipedia, or you could simply accept that you are in a minority in the English Wikipedia.  Robert McClenon (talk) 04:11, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

limit search to contributions by a particular editor or IP
Sometimes I try to find a string I wrote that's common across Wikipedia's latest revisions or that's no longer in the latest revisions. I'd like to limit a search to those pages for which I was an editor. Even better, I'd like to be able to search only revisions including replaced revisions that I edited across all of Wikipedia, because I may not remember which page I had edited with the string. The limit by editor should allow both usernames and IP addresses and ranges. Are such kinds of searches possible? Nick Levinson (talk) 23:05, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
 * , seems plausible. What it seems to me that you want to do is a string search on your Special:Contribs/Nick Levinson.  I think there is a userscript that does some of that, although I'm not sure if it is exactly what you were hoping for.  A user contribs search script could certainly be written if it doesn't exist somewhere, but I'm afraid you'll have to find a capable editor to write it and I currently do not have that kind of time (too many of my own unfinished projects at the moment). Good luck. — &#123;&#123;U&#124;Technical 13&#125;&#125; (e • t • c) 23:14, 13 December 2014 (UTC)