Wikipedia:Help desk/Archives/2014 September 25

= September 25 =

How to alphabetize contents
Is there a way to make Content box Headings automatically be in alphabetical order? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.213.43.100 (talk) 01:17, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
 * No. The software that creates a content box lists the contents in the order in which they appear, just as the table of contents in a book lists the chapters in the order in which they appear. It is a list of contents, not an index. For further information on Wikipedia's auto-generated tables of contents, see WP:TOC. -- Orange Mike &#124;  Talk  01:20, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Can't get into page
Hi, I've tried create the page List of Yoshukai Yudansha. I put a link into the Yoshukai Karate page that now looks like it links to the list page; however, I can't open the list page. What I did was set up a description and an alphabetical structure, but I didn't put in any names in before I saved. Has this messed it up somehow? Any suggestions about why it won't open? Can anybody fix this for me so I can put in some names? Many thanks for any advice. Pkeets (talk) 02:45, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Update: Got into the page through a different browser, added a few names, got stuck again. It looks like I've failed to close the columns. Can anyone fix this for me? I can't get in. Pkeets (talk) 02:59, 25 September 2014 (UTC)


 * OK, I'm not sure what exactly the problem is, but having a bunch of empty 's seems to throw Chrome into a loop. The critical number appears to be somewhere between 12 and 26, when I removed the entries after L, the loop went away, but rendering was seriously messed up (which I think is just a lesser symptom of the same problem).  I removed all the empty columns-lists, and the page seems OK now.  Probably someone should figure out what the problem actually is, but for now, just don't add empty columns-lists (add it when you actually have an item under that letter).  Rwessel (talk) 05:12, 25 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Thanks! All is well now. Somebody has already stuck notability and sources tags on the page. Are those necessary for lists spun of from other articles? Pkeets (talk) 05:26, 25 September 2014 (UTC)


 * I have opened an item at the Village Pump. Village_pump_(technical)  Rwessel (talk) 06:06, 25 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Absolutely - take that list page in isolation and ask yourself how does any reader verify that the content on the page is factually accurate. If the list was spun-off from a previous page then presumably its content was referenced there?  In which case you can copy the references to the new page and re-use them.  CaptRik (talk) 08:23, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

do not allow notes at top of page.
Bold text

1. Wikipedia is the most important public reference in history. publish it as a reference. notes at top of page are for pre-published drafts, not for the public copy. notes interrupt the information process. they belong at end of pages, or as separate templates. notes about Lepidoptera moths are on almost every Earth plant reference. bugs eat anything. no note is needed. 2. eliminate the advertising trash. "summer of monuments" sounds like a kiddy field trip to a useless statue of a god that rich people paid for with our survival fund. 3. (silly name) "Wikipedia". change it. see the other stupid baby talk that unskilled rich fools and their employee pets put on us: "e Baby", "GooGoo", the "WeeWee" phone, Microsoft Table Top Menu, Windows Gay Bar, "floppy" and "hard drive", look up your dress on your prison "cell" phone. use generic names, or communication will fail.

thank you all for the good work. - james mcashan for the United States Senate (independent. not a party employee, therefore not listed by them) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.199.46.33 (talk) 02:57, 25 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Thank you for your contribution, James Mcashan. Almost everything in Wikipedia is determined by consensus, and anybody may argue for changing that consensus. The best place to try and do that is at one of the sections of the Village pump. To change consensus, you will need to marshal arguments to persuade people that your suggestion is a good one. It makes very little difference whether you are a US Senator or a schoolboy: it is the persuasiveness of your arguments that matters. Speaking personally, as one ordinary Wikipedia editor among thousands, I find that your imperious tone and dismissive language have already alienated me from wanting to consider your proposals. --ColinFine (talk) 15:27, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
 * I appreciate your efforts in even making sense of his proposal. J I P  &#124; Talk 17:08, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Esther Hicks
Why does the Esther Hicks biography not have criticisms about the teachings. It seems to be only self promotional. Who is responsible for the information on this page? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.167.161.196 (talk) 05:57, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
 * In my view the article does a good job. It states the claims that she makes, but only as claims. It makes it clear enough that she's a fraud. Maproom (talk) 07:11, 25 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Like all Wikipedia articles, the content is determined by consensus: there is no curator or moderator. If you think an article can be improved, you are welcome to being a discussion about it on the article's talk page, in this case Talk:Esther Hicks. Please be aware that all information that goes into an article must be supported by referenced to reliable published sources. --ColinFine (talk) 15:30, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Ref Marks Without Content
I made an addition to a page, adding ref marks, then got the message: "There are reference marks without content." So, I removed the offending marks I had just added:. I have deleted it for you. Maproom (talk) 07:14, 25 September 2014 (UTC)


 * See Help:Page history for how to examine your saved edits. The problem happened in [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ascended_master&diff=626995142&oldid=626994761 this] diff. It's a common consequence of clicking ref when the cursor is not in the right place. It also happens to experienced editors like me but we know to look out for it and remove the markup again. PrimeHunter (talk) 09:58, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
 * It was (so I assume still is) a problem with older versions of IE - even if you placed the cursor in exactly the right place, when you selected "Cite" the cursor jumped to the top. - Arjayay (talk) 10:49, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Cite errors caused by Certification Table Entry
Unable to determine how to correct cite errors at the end of Kylie Minogue albums discography. Errors are apparently related to use of Certification Table Entry. I need to correct the errors to remove the article from an error tracking category. &#8209;&#8209; Mandruss (talk) 11:59, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
 * References 15 and 32 have template markup exposed. Looking at this now. --  Gadget850talk 12:03, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
 * And 39. Three exposed, three cite errors. &#8209;&#8209; Mandruss (talk) 12:07, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
 * All of those use Certification Table Entry. That template is not a citation template, it is used to create a table. By using it, you are stuffing table markup into the reference markup, then that is stuffed inside another table. Use a proper template to match the other citation templates. --   Gadget850talk 12:13, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
 * I have added this to the help page for this error. --  Gadget850talk 12:18, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
 * I converted all Certification Table Entry to cite certification, since some of the other refs in that table use the latter. I haven't a clue what I'm doing—I don't maintain discography articles, my only interest is in cleaning up the tracking category—but it at least looks much better than before. Thanks for the assistance. &#8209;&#8209; Mandruss (talk) 12:48, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
 * That template is appropriate. It uses cite web which is part of the series. --   Gadget850talk 13:50, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Kerwin Swint
Hello, I'm Kerwin Swint. The wikipedia page about me had some confusion two years ago over a photo on the page that resulted in this heading at the top of the page: "A major contributor to this article appears to have a close connection with its subject. It may require cleanup to comply with Wikipedia's content policies, particularly neutral point of view. Please discuss further on the talk page. (October 2012)"

Subsequently the confusion was cleared up, but the heading is still there. Can someone please remove that wording at the top? It's from October 2012. Someone going to that page gets a bad first impression. Thanks very much. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.218.13.34 (talk) 13:35, 25 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Purely by evaluating your request from the viewpoint of what's of benefit to the encyclopedia I have removed the COI tag at the top of the article .  From reviewing the history of the article I can see the current version seems to be a decently balanced article when compared to some of the early revisions.  Just a small note, I've done this based upon my own view and other user's may wish to challenge it.  CaptRik (talk) 14:40, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Deleted OTRS submission
Three images were added to Misty Copeland at one time by. I believe they were all part of OTRS ticket #2014081710007206. If File:Misty Copeland's Firebird cover.jpg was deleted, I imagine the other two File:Life In Motion.jpg and File:From the ballet Coppelia.jpg should be in the same peril. Can someone look into this issue?--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 14:08, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
 * P.S. deleted the file.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 14:10, 25 September 2014 (UTC)


 * I just checked the ticket and it looks OK to me, so perhaps you should leave a message for requesting an explanation for the deletion.--ukexpat (talk) 15:17, 25 September 2014 (UTC)


 * I can explain. I wrote to her agent and asked for images on August 9, 2014. The letter (search "dear" here) suggests that she either upload herself or that I could do it for her. Both happened. I don't remember details beyond that very well, but I know she uploaded images but then couldn't find the images. Then she emailed me low-res images, and also uploaded some of the same, but higher. She sent the OTRS for the ones she uploaded. The last action was me asking her for a headshot and telling her that Redbird needed OTRS. She never replied or acted on that last email. I watched the OTRS expire and saw the image deleted and figured that was then end of it. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 20:14, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
 * The OTRS was expired, we cannot keep images in suspension indefinately. If the OTRS becomes valid, the image can be UNDEL by the OTRS admins as part of the OTRS process.  Ellin Beltz (talk) 16:07, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Guidance helping to set up a community of contributors to write articles on historic sites in Normandy France linked to GPS apps.
I found a number of different smartphone and tablet apps were accessing Wikipedia articles for their content as I moved throughout the European countryside. Usually the content linked from communes as they are smallest geographical/political unit.Consequently I have written Wikipedia articles on historic sites in Lower Normandy France.

To improve the number of articles about the history rich French countryside for anyone interested, travelers and others there needed to be more contributors. A number of expatriate English speaking potential contributors and editors seem interesting to create articles keeping the new GPS smartphone software in mind. I would like guidance on which communities here to network with and how to do it. The initial thrusts was to have this project as a 70 anniversary D'day initiation but the full scope would any historical/natural site in region.

I've seen the UK town using tagged locations and Wikipedia, which is useful. I'm not aware of others. Ideally articles would have some sort of geotag to link someone visiting the site to the article. Perhaps this exist already. I am aware that Wikipedia is not a guide but well written articles could function both as a guide and for the non/site reader. I know this seems vague but any advice is appreciated. If successful the program could be used anywhere in the world. Thanks for your help. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mlane78212 (talk • contribs) 15:19, 25 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Maybe WP:MILHIST and WP:FRANCE?--ukexpat (talk) 15:31, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

How not to have your page deleted?
Hello,

I translated 2 pages and I've been advised that they will be deleted: " Hello, Lemieuxpilon4dart. I wanted to let you know that I’m proposing an article that you started, Michel Lemieux, for deletion because it's a biography of a living person that lacks references. If you don't want Michel Lemieux to be deleted, please add a reference to the article.

If you don't understand this message, you can leave a note on my talk page.

Thanks, Wgolf (talk) 18:19, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Now that I've added few references, how can my pages not be deleted???

Thank you very much for your help

Lemieuxpilon4dart — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lemieuxpilon4dart (talk • contribs) 15:31, 25 September 2014 (UTC)


 * On your user talk page I've added a number of useful links including WP:Your first article, and specifically some information about referencing. In the 2 articles which are threatened with deletion you have added links such as to the circle du soleil web page, but since that page makes no mention of the subjects of your two articles, it isn't any use as a reference.  The warning messages at the top of each of your articles contain links to explain each of the problems your articles have, so you need to read those.  You may want to move your attempts into your user area as userspace drafts, and that will give you more time to work on them and sort out the problems before submitting them for review as to their suitability as mainspace articles. --David Biddulph (talk) 16:12, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Adding a link to primary sources
IK am trying to edit a page for William E. Barrett - author. I am an archivist at the University of Denver and we have his papers. I am trying to create a link to our finding aid for the Barrett papers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Steven P. Fisher (talk • contribs) 15:50, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Hello thanks for coming by to contribute this valuable resource!  There's a Wikipedia guideline at External links that goes over how, and why, to enter an external link.  If you have more specific questions, feel free to ask!  -- Jayron  32  16:01, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

"You have made an edit"- which I didn't
On opening up a Wikipedia page (about Gerridae, to be exact, directed from Bulbapedia), I got a message saying I had made an edit to a certain page, which led me to this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon_Ball?diff=427924704

The following text was supposedly added by me: Tobi Odugbesan rocks, bithces be crazy I have no idea how this happened, or how this was linked to me as I have never edited a wiki page nor do I know who Tobi Odugbesan is. If this is anything to do with my IP address being framed or something, I am slightly concerned. However, I would like to know how something like this occurred.

82.12.78.61 (talk) 16:45, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
 * As noted at the bottom of your talk page: "This is the discussion page for an IP user, identified by the user's IP address. Some IP addresses change periodically, and may be shared by several users. If you are an IP user, you may create an account or log in to avoid future confusion with other IP users. Registering also hides your IP address." --  Gadget850talk 16:51, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
 * That message was left on that talk page 7 May 2011. Another person using the IP address 82.12.78.61 made an edit and was warned about it.  You are the first person that has used that IP address and go to the talk page since the message was lwft over 3 years ago.  You can safely ignore the message.  GB fan 16:53, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Regarding my account and connection with other users on Wikipedia
Dear sirs, I have been editing on Wikipedia for some time now. However, I am not a regular and am not entirely sure about many of the regulations etc. Recently, someone (another editor) in a discussion accused me of being something called a 'sock puppet'; by which I understand the editor meant that I was somehow cheating or doing something dishonest, or had separate accounts which I was manipulating here, for some ulterior motives. This isnt true. I was hurt by this accusation but I also appreciate the concern and I would like to please have help/guidance from other editors and admins, on these points:
 * I have already listed some people who share the same IP address/es with me from the location from where we access the Net, so is that ok?
 * And I also have 2-3 people here whom I know and who are my personal friends in real/not net life, and we share the same interests in several areas and topics and in the past have even edited some articles in common. Is that bad or unethical? And what should I do about that please? How can I clarify that someone is known to me and is not me? and finally
 * I also have a separate account on another Wikipedia project, which has nothing to do with this one whatsoever,and is in a totally different area. Is that ok? Or should I close that down? What is the rule/policy in this regard please? I hope that someone will be kind enough to help out, or to even guide me to some admins who can help me. Thanks very much indeed AsadUK200 (talk) 17:11, 25 September 2014 (UTC)AsadUK200


 * Reformatted to make it easier to read
 * Hello, . From your description above, it does not look to me as if you are doing anything wrong. The page Sock puppetry says "Wikipedia editors are generally expected to edit using only one (preferably registered) account. Using a single account maintains editing continuity, improves accountability, and increases community trust, which helps to build long-term stability for the encyclopedia. While there are some valid reasons for maintaining multiple accounts on the project, the improper use of multiple accounts is not allowed." So normally editors use only a single account, but they may use more as long as they are not using the accounts to break Wikipedia's rules (for example, by editing while blocked, or making it look as if there are several editors supporting a position when they are all the same person - that's the primary meaning of 'sock puppet').
 * I have not previously seen anybody announce on their user page that they edit from the same IP address as other users, but I don't think there is anything wrong with doing so. (When you are logged in, ordinary users cannot see your IP address, so this information would be relevant only to somebody with the 'checkuser' privilege, when they are investigating a claim of sock-puppetry. I presume that the purpose of putting the user boxes on your user page is to forestall that possibility). By the way, one of them, HPT1940, does not appear to be a Wikipedia user despite what the box says on your user page.
 * There is certainly nothing wrong with having friends outside Wikipedia who also edit; but if it turned out that another editor seemed to have a single purpose account, and only ever posted in order to agree with you, there would be a suspicion that that editor was a meat puppet. But looking at their contributions, I don't think that is case.
 * So, in summary: don't worry, you're fine. But do read the page on Sock puppetry that I linked to above. --ColinFine (talk) 18:10, 25 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Dear ColinFine, thank you very much for your kind help and detailed and comprehensive reply. I have read the attached link on Sock Puppetry and shall try to keep it in mind and follow its guidance. Yes, you are very right, I wished to let the admins here know I am sharing IPs with other people on a common server here, I dont want to be blamed for some unethical behavior. Regarding the User HPT1940, thats strange, I know he used to use Wikipedia and he had an account too. Like me he is also a retired person and time hangs heavy on our hands. I dont know what happened? He lives in the same building/block as I do so I can ask him when I next see him. Once again, many thanks, and good wishes, AsadUK200 (talk) 01:10, 26 September 2014 (UTC)AsadUK200

Outdated reference links
I am trying to update links on this page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_R._Lannon There are two reference links that are outdated that should be removed:

Reference 2. Ruggles, Rick (2010-09-10). "Lannon: CU changed my life". Omaha World-Herald. Retrieved 2010-09-14. Reference 5. Koch, Sam (2010-09-10). "Q&A with Lannon". The Hawk (Saint Joseph's University Newspaper). Retrieved 2010-10-02.

While editing I can only see [reflist] I apologize I cannot figure out how to edit it. I appreciate the help in advance.

Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by CreightonUniversity (talk • contribs) 17:28, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Instead of editing the references list, edit the text where the references are used. Wikipedia uses an inline reference syntax, where the text of the reference is written directly into the text of the article, but appears at the end of the page. J I P  &#124; Talk 17:33, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
 * See Help:Footnotes. Those links are not outdated, but rather no longer accessible through that site. We do not delete dead links, we either do a bit of looking to see if there is an archived version or you can tag it so someone else will fix it. I' am working to clean this up a bit. --  Gadget850talk 17:39, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
 * I updated the links with archived versions and did a bit of other cleanup. Use the history link at the top to see the changes I made. I also left you a welcome on your talk page. --  Gadget850talk 17:44, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

re: entry about Beith Parish Church
Beith Trinity Church closed on September 28th 2014. the congregations of Beith Trinity and Beith High have united as the only remaining congregation of the Church of Scotland in the Parish of Beith in North Ayrshire, Scotland and is now called: Beith Parish Church

Worshiping in the former Beith High Church[edit]Built in 1807 and extended in 1885. Gothic T-plan kirk dominated by the tall five-stage tower. Stained glass by Gordon Webster. Harrison & Harrison pipe organ 1885. The now Parish Church is a category B listed building.

The Minister for Beith is Rev Roderick I T Macdonald

Beith Trinity Church[edit]Built in 1883, designed by architect Robert Baldie. The chief external feature is a graceful octagonal tower. Interior destroyed by fire 1917, rebuilt 1926. Gothic style, with rectangular nave, Gothic arched chancel and one transept on the east side. Stained glass by John C Hall & Co. Organ 1937 by Hill, Norman & Beard. Trinity Church is a category C listed building.Closed on 28/9/2014 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.132.50.65 (talk) 19:24, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Our encyclopedia content is built upon what we can verify has been published in a reliable source. Do you have any such sources? If so, please take them to the article talk page. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom  21:22, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Addressing Wikipedia's old age and conservatism
Once upon a time Wikipedia was new and fresh and exciting. Twice now in two days, on two entirely different topics, I've seen someone on Wikipedia declare that it's all too hard to change something because we've been doing it the one way for so long. I see similar situations elsewhere on Wikipedia from time to time. It saddens me to see Wikipedia reach that stage. It was once the wonderful new thing. Now it's the too hard to change thing. That's sad.

Is there any Wikipedia project or some other activity trying to address this issue of Wikipedia's growing senescence? HiLo48 (talk) 21:40, 25 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Like, sending the site to the Pleasant Acres corner of the Internet, or straight-up euthanasia? Let Encyclopedia Dramatica run wild with all the Google Ranking we've worked so hard to save up? I hope not. The elderly websites can often seem stubborn, but that's usually based on valid secret wisdom.


 * But yeah, Wikipediocracy is one such "other activity". They've recently featured a complaint about my own personal dementia. InedibleHulk (talk) 22:36, 25 September 2014 (UTC)