Wikipedia:Help desk/Archives/2015 March 21

= March 21 =

Main page versions
How can I retrieve prior versions of the main page? (I don't need to edit them. I'm interested in the "In the news" section for previous weeks.) The main page history tab only lists about one version for every six months and when you link to a previous page (like 18 February 2015 or 4 July 2014), you get the same current main page. --RoyGoldsmith (talk) 00:57, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Looks like ITN comes from Template:In the news, which has far more frequent updates. &#8213; Mandruss  &#9742;  01:04, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
 * See also Main Page history. PrimeHunter (talk) 02:25, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks to you both. --RoyGoldsmith (talk) 18:51, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

Request help with multiple category CfD
Please see Talk:War in Afghanistan (2001–present) This is a WP:C2D due to the results of Move review/Log/2015 February. I have never done a CfD before, let alone multiple categories.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 03:53, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

Geographical Dna test article and  Mowa  Choctaw  article   talk  page      inaccuracies.
I would  like  to  complain  about two  huge  problems the  Wikipedia Geographical Dna  test article   and the Mowa Choctaw article  talk  page.

both are related  problems. There are several Scientists  who  say   that  Genetic ancestry  tests  are  not accurate  at all.

How come   the views  of those Scientists  are not  reflected  in the Geographical  Dna   test article.

For example  I  have   an   email  that UNC - Chapel  Hill  Anthropology Department sent  me in 2010  and   yes  its still current unless    I hear  directly  from  Unc Chapel  Hill Anthropology Department   what  they emailed  me about   genetic ancestry testing is  still  true.

UNC Chapel Hill's Anthropology   Department    responded to a question  I asked about  what Dr  Loretta Cormier   a Medical Anthropologist   with the  University  of Alabama  at Birmingham told me  about  Genetic Ancestry   testing.

She  said

" There is no such  thing  as  a Native  American   gene , a European  Gene   or  an African  Gene, with Dna tests  for race all  you get  is  an  allele  saying  you are  more  likely  this  or that and  with racially  mixed  people you are mixing   together  the different  alleles  making   it even  harder   to  know  what you are".

She  said  " there  is nothing  to  show   you   your  race though we  wish  that there  were".

That was  her  response   to the Genetic  ancestry  tests  done  on   former chief  of the Mowa Choctaws   in  Mobile  and Washington  Counties Alabama Wilford  Taylor   who  is  still  an enrolled   member  of the  Mowa Choctaw  Tribe.

I also  asked  UNC Chapel  Hill about the Genetic  ancestry tests  done on 350   Mowa Choctaws  out   of 3000  tested in 1976  by Dr  Pollitzer where they   supposedly came  back   70  percent  White  and  30  percent  Black, with very  Little Indian.

Unc Chapel Hill Anthropology Department  said   "  its true  there  is no such  thing as a  Native  American  or African  Allele   in the sense  there  are   no Alleles (Alternative Copies  of a  gene) that  are found   in all Native  Americans  and   only  in   Native  Americans

there are some Alleles  that  are  more common  in Native  Americans  than  in  other  populations but  that's   not  a particularly   useful way   to   trace  anyone's ancestry.

they then  said what  these  tests are useful  for studying  Populations.

And they  said  that  Professor Pollitizer was trying  to determine  the level  of admixture  in the US  south.

they then  told me that  for  many reasons these   tests  can  be considered  only Rough Estimates.

They said  the  Real  issue  underlying  all  of this is that race   has  both  a biological and Sociological definition and that those two concepts  are  often  blended  and confused.

They recommended  I read  a  book  on  Physical Anthropology by  Physical  Anthropologist  Jonathan Marks.

I know from   an  internet  article   Jonathan Marks wrote   called the Science  and  Business  of Genetic Ancestry Testing that  Jonathan  Marks  does  not believe  Dna  tests  for race are accurate.

For the same reasons  UNC Chapel  Hill's Anthropology  Department   does  not.

He also  said  the Scientists who claim  Genetic Ancestry  testing   is accurate  are   people  who are   unintentionall misleading the  public to get  more   money  and  media  attention for   Genetic  Research.

Finally the Mowa  Choctaw  Talk  page   should  just say  what UNC Chapel Hill's Anthropologists  say about why Genetic ancestry testing  is not accurate.

Dr Loretta Cormier  of UAB  is the  Anthropologist  for the Mowa  Choctaws of Mobile and Washington  Counties Alabama. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.5.212.168 (talk) 05:25, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
 * I took the liberty of fixing the formatting in your post. It was previously almost unreadable. J I P  &#124; Talk 05:49, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
 * If you believe an article contains inaccuracies, point it out on its talk page. On Wikipedia, if information is well supported by sources, it is included. If you have other sources that support a view that contradicts the one in the article, provide those sources on the article's talk page or add the information to the article with citations. Remember that everything on Wikipedia must meet WP:Verifiability, emails that have not been published by the sender do not. As a final note, you said Jonathan Marks said "the Scientists who claim Genetic Ancestry  testing   is accurate  are   people  who are   unintentionally  misleading  the  public to get  more   money  and  media  attention for   Genetic  Research," that statement is a logical contradiction, you cannot both be doing something with a motive (for money/media attention) and unintentionally. If it says that in the source it might cause an issue and so I would recommend finding multiple other sources in addition to that one.  Phantom Tech  (talk) 06:06, 21 March 2015 (UTC)


 * It is still hard to read the above post even after the reformatting. It is also hard to tell what articles the OP is concerned about.  The above post is the only post made from that IP address, so that there is no way of guessing what DNA test article is being discussed.  It does appear that the other article is MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians.  I agree that that article is poorly written, containing poor grammar and syntax, and unencyclopedic language.  What article about DNA testing is problematic?  Robert McClenon (talk) 16:09, 21 March 2015 (UTC)


 * If I understood it, the problem they're talking about is using DNA to check for race or the geographical origins of ancestors. Phantom Tech  (talk) 16:36, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes. I know that is what the OP is talking about.  But the OP complained about two articles.  One of them is MOWA Band of Choctaw Indians.  It isn't clear what article the other one is, only what its topic is.  Robert McClenon (talk) 18:22, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Genealogical DNA test is a possibility. Deor (talk) 10:43, 22 March 2015 (UTC)

Band notability advice
Hi. I never realized how complex the inner workings of Wikipedia were until now, that i'm interested in asking advice. In advance, I apologize if this isn't the right place to be asking this.

My issue right now pertains to the Musician WikiProject, which seems to be somewhat inactive (or I have no idea where to start looking for an active person), and the notability page it linked (viewable here). I was interested to find out if a moderately small band was eligible for a wikipedia page- so I read over the notability article, but I still wished to get some clear tips from a more experienced user (because to be fair, it can get to be a bit blurred or confusing), and I wasn't sure where to start (so I'm hoping someone here can look into it and give me some answers).

The band I'm talking about is a small pop-rock band based in New York (Poughkeepsie, if I remember correctly), mostly a cover band. However, as of March 2015 they have released numerous original songs & singles, two EPs (Infinity and Gravity), have been on at least 5+ tours (not sure if the tours are considered large, medium, tiny), and recently were signed to the record label Fueled by Ramen. As of April or so last year, there are three members (from the original five), Chrissy (Cristina) Costanza, Dan Glow and Will Ferri. The band was founded in mid-2011 (If I remember correctly, possibly earlier). Chrissy and/or the band have also worked with artists such as Alex Goot and Kurt Hugo Schneider I hope someone can look into it, and bring me a response and some WP advice.

Here are some links to the band themselves- Their youtube channel - Their website - iTunes and twitter

Thanks in advance. CentralFloridian (talk) 07:10, 21 March 2015 (UTC)


 * The most important element in the notability page, WP:Notability (music), is that the group have been the subject of multiple published articles in independent reliable sources). If the group has received an award, or has topped the charts, or been certified gold, it will almost certainly also be listed in multiple published articles.  Has the band been the subject of published articles in reliable sources?  (The links that you provide are not independent and so are not considered secondary reliable sources.)  You might start by doing a Google search for the band by its name.  Robert McClenon (talk) 15:52, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Do you have a connection with the band? If so, that is considered a conflict of interest, in which case writing about the band is strongly discouraged, because contributors with conflicts of interest are very seldom able to write from a neutral point of view.  If you can find articles about the band in reliable sources, and if you do not have a conflict of interest, you may write a draft article and submit it via the Articles for Creation process.  Robert McClenon (talk) 15:52, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm not a member of the band nor do I have any relation to them other than being a fan of sorts, so I think I'll do that (write a draft and submit it), thanks for the suggestion! :) CentralFloridian (talk) 06:59, 22 March 2015 (UTC)
 * "Small" as in number of musicians is no problem, a duo is fine. You need some reliable references talking about this band, books, journals, or similar. Self-published pages or YT videos don't count for "notable", forums and blogs do not generally count, and if all you find are two-liners in regional newspapers for their concerts it's also bad. Otherwise have fun, or be bold and ignore all rules, as they say here (ideally you'd know the rules before you ignore them, but I digress. :-) –Be..anyone (talk) 16:06, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

Link and a reference
Hi, can anyone tell me what is the difference between a link and a reference. Someone told me that Soccerway.com etc are links and therefore, profile of a player like this cannot be used as a reference. RRD13 দেবজ্যোতি (talk) 07:59, 21 March 2015 (UTC)


 * We need the context to see what they meant. Where were you told this? PrimeHunter (talk) 10:02, 21 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Hi, you can check my talk page under the Igor Angulo heading. RRD13 দেবজ্যোতি (talk) 10:27, 21 March 2015 (UTC)


 * By "link" they apparently mean the "External links" section described at External links, but this restricted meaning of "link" is not normal in Wikipedia. A more common term for that is "external link" but that can still be ambiguous. By "reference" they mean an inline reference described at Citing sources. Apart from that, I'm not sure why they don't want a page to be used as a reference. Practice varies and in some areas it may be preferred that a page at a well-known site with significant statistical information is in an external links section and not "repeated" as an inline source for simple uncontroversial information. I don't know the reliability of the discussed sources but another consideration is that "External links" allows pages which are considered unreliable for use as references. PrimeHunter (talk) 14:57, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

Djeak
Dear Help desk,

Djeak

He is a Real Person, Famous Person. What miss I so that this page is always gotten CSD A7?

with best regards,

Akorda Khan — Preceding unsigned comment added by Akordakhan (talk • contribs) 18:13, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Merely existing is not enough. Reliably published sources not related to the subject must have discussed the subject in a substantive manner and you must demonstrate that by providing appropriate citations. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom  18:25, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

is this to not enough ?

http://www.ekizceliler.com/files/cache/d21ec4d0282c89ad88590f0ab6c380c6_f24.png

Regards,

Akordakhan — Preceding unsigned comment added by Akordakhan (talk • contribs) 18:32, 21 March 2015 (UTC)


 * User:Akordakhan - Forum shopping, asking the same question or raising the same issue in multiple places in Wikipedia, is discouraged. You got the same answer at the Teahouse as at the Help Desk.  What would you do if you got different answers?   Robert McClenon (talk) 18:35, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

@Robert McClenon,

No not different answers want i, what i would is very fast and best answers, Today is my first day in Wikipedia so i must learn how living is in Wikipedia world and what the Rules is. There is much pages about Rules but not enough for me, thats the way i create my first page and asking in some help pages what i must to do etc... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Akordakhan (talk • contribs) 18:41, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

Here is more Newspapers:

http://oi58.tinypic.com/bfhpw3.jpg

http://oi58.tinypic.com/2r2wrde.jpg

http://oi58.tinypic.com/fx8jtj.jpg

is now enough ?

Regards,

Akordakhan — Preceding unsigned comment added by Akordakhan (talk • contribs) 19:00, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
 * No. Local promotional event coverage does not provide "significant coverage of the subject by non related reliable sources." -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom  19:33, 21 March 2015 (UTC)


 * In Wikipedia, there is no deadline. You were trying to rush Wikipedia into accepting an article.  You certainly are not going to get the article accepted by throwing bare URLs at us at the Help Desk.  Whether you will get the article accepted by putting the bare URLs into the article and resubmitting it is another question that I won't answer.  I don't intend to check the proposed references further.  I suggest that you take a break and be patient enough to learn that impatience in Wikipedia is not usually productive, but I don't expect you to take my advice.  Robert McClenon (talk) 19:41, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Please read Your first article. As it recommends there you can create a draft article out of article space, where there will not be pressure to make it ready for publication, and you can work with an Articles-for-creation reviewer to get it ready. —teb728 t c 21:20, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

Obscene?
Dear friends of the English Wik. There is a controversy in the Spanish Wik. on the deeper meaning of the following limerick (poetry) which appears in the article of this poetic form. I think it's totally obscene, but some people think it is not necessarily. Could you help us about it?


 * The limerick packs laughs anatomical
 * Into space that is quite economical.
 * But the good ones I've seen
 * So seldom are clean
 * And the clean ones so seldom are comical.

Thank your very much. --Sürrell (talk) 18:58, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Nope not obscene AT ALL. it makes reference to the fact that limericks are often obscene, but it is not obscene itself. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom  19:14, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Well, then what does it mean, please? For example, what the hell is a "space quite economical", and "clean", clean of what, he, he?--Sürrell (talk) 19:20, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
 * "space quite economical" refers to the fact that a limerick is only 5 lines . "clean" refers to limericks free from obscenities. and he he referring to the fact that some limericks are free from obscenities but those are generally not funny. which is quite clearly NOT obscene itself. Otherwise, the word obscene would be obscene because it clearly refers to materials that are obscene. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom  20:25, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
 * A translation of the poem would be "Limericks are a short form of humorous poetry, generally bawdy in nature. The limericks that are not racy, are not funny." -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom  20:30, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

The article saysː ″Gershon Legman, who compiled the largest and most scholarly anthology, held that the true limerick as a folk form is always obscene, and cites similar opinions by Arnold Bennett and George Bernard Shaw, describing the clean limerick as a "periodic fad and object of magazine contests, rarely rising above mediocrity." From a folkloric point of view, the form is essentially transgressive; violation of taboo is part of its function″.--Sürrell (talk) 19:23, 21 March 2015 (UTC)


 * As the English Wikipedia is WP:NOTCENSORED, it doesn't matter here, and I see the Spanish Wikipedia has a similar policy here - Arjayay (talk) 19:31, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

Yes, yes, "not censored", and?... This cannot be an obscenity in anyway? I think it is, and I want to translate in this way for the article.--Sürrell (talk) 19:46, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
 * I think it has a second meaning, the second meaning being penile. Sincerely, Taketa (talk) 20:10, 21 March 2015 (UTC)


 * That is a perception. One looks for an obscenity because the limerick is often obscene.  But "a space that is quite economical" refers to the poetic form of the limerick itself, and "clean" refers to the lack of obscenities.  Robert McClenon (talk) 20:12, 21 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Sorry, if the stanza "limerick" is of type obscene, I think it must be interpreted as meaning, yeah: obscene. If this type were not obscene I’d interpretː "a space economical refers to the poetic form of the limerick itself”. Did I explain or not explain? The limerick is obscene or it is not. If the limerick is obscene it is not “the poetic form of the limerick itself”. It is another thing.--Sürrell (talk) 00:10, 22 March 2015 (UTC)
 * "The limerick is obscene or it is not": The above poem is DEFINITELY NOT obscene.
 * I have no idea what you mean by " If the limerick is obscene it is not “the poetic form of the limerick itself”. It is another thing.".
 * Are you stating Definition of a Limerick: A poetic form that contains obscenities. - that obscenity is inherent defining a limerick and so any poem without obscenity is by definition not a limerick?
 * If so that is incorrect, as a poetic form limerick is defined by its rhyme structure : AAbbA --  TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom  03:03, 22 March 2015 (UTC)

, are you suggesting that "space economical" refers to some obscene body part? I doubt it. It sounds like it's just talking about the poetic form. — Eru·tuon 04:44, 22 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Yes, indeed, I suggest that "economical space" refers to some obscene body part, besides the type of stanza. In poetry it is called syntactic ambiguity, also called amphibology or double meaning. Maybe is this a sin? Really? Amphibology doesn't work here? Impossible?--Sürrell (talk) 12:55, 22 March 2015 (UTC)
 * if you look hard enough, you will see smut anywhere. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom  16:03, 22 March 2015 (UTC)
 * heh, heh, heh, he said hard. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom  16:03, 22 March 2015 (UTC)
 * ACK, as it happens&mdash;cf. en-3 on my page&mdash;I "saw" the anatomical meaning before the syntactical meaning. But how on earth did this poetical issue end up on the help desk, it's off topic. –Be..anyone (talk) 16:55, 22 March 2015 (UTC)

Heh, heh, TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom, I usually see smut in predominantly obscene poetry as limericks are. And maybe I recently have read too much some James Joyce, an Irish writer in foreign parts. And, mmmmm, Be..anyone, please if you say that, could you translate this issue to the right place? I'm a sad dirtyminded editor of foreign parts and I do not know where to go. ;-)--Sürrell (talk) 19:20, 22 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Good question, maybe Reference_desk/Humanities, but it never occured to me to get an enwiki opinion for a dewiki dispute or vice versa, IOW, untested. ;-) –Be..anyone (talk) 12:44, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

Mmm, Reference_desk/Humanities. Very well. But maybe you can answer this additional questions. dewiki is german Wikipedia? What the hell (excuse me) does IOW, untested mean? Heh, heh --Sürrell (talk) 13:48, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

Infobox mountain pass
I'm having trouble getting the push pin map for Template:Infobox mountain pass to work. I copied the box to my sandbox to work on it User:Gaff/sandbox. Can somebody check it out and fix it or tell me what I am doing wrong? Then I will fix it on the article page. thanks --Gaff (talk) 20:06, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
 * with this edit. &#8213; Mandruss  &#9742;  20:14, 21 March 2015 (UTC)