Wikipedia:Help desk/Archives/2015 May 29

= May 29 =

Replying to an article from May 23rd or 24th that is no longer showing
I need to reply to something that was posted here about four or five days ago. It was still there earlier today but now it's gone. I imagine stuff older than a certain number of days is automatically archived somewhere. The problem is there was an active conversation going on and I need to add a reply to it and I can't find it now. What should I do? Please note, I need not only to be able to read the "old" posting; I also need to reply to it (and have it visible where the other person(s) will see it). Richard27182 (talk) 00:50, 29 May 2015 (UTC)
 * The long thread about sandboxing is to be found at Help desk/Archives/2015 May 24, But Please don't reply there. It is unlikely to be seen by others. Instead start a new discussion, either here or at the talk page of the user you want to discuss with, and provide a link to the above page for context. If the user is me, just post to User talk:DESiegel and you needn't bother with the link for context, I will remember. Just mention it is about the sandboxing issue. DES (talk) 01:09, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

Eurovision Song Contest: Source contradicts facts
From the lede of Eurovision Song Contest: "The Eurovision Song Contest [...] is the longest running[2] annual TV song competition held, primarily, among the member countries of the European Broadcasting Union (EBU) since 1956. The competition was based upon the existing Sanremo Music Festival held in Italy."

Source [2] points to an article on the ESC page, which quotes a Guiness record. Now, 1) I don't believe the the ESC article is providing false information, ie. I'm so sure that the Guiness record stands that I don't even look into it 2) I consider Guiness to be a good source for this kind of trivia.

However, the claim is flatly contradicted by the following claim that the ESC is based on the older, continuously running, annual TV song competition. It would even be clearly contradicted by the mere existence of the Sanremo Music Festival.

Do I miss something? If not, how should this problem be handled?

Thanks for your help!-91.10.62.211 (talk) 02:03, 29 May 2015 (UTC)


 * I think it all comes down to a case of semantics. ESC is the longest running Television song contest, as opposed to the SMF which is a song contest that happens to be televised. The first thing to check is if Guinness have awarded any record to SMF and what was the distinction they used to describe it. - X201 (talk) 06:14, 29 May 2015 (UTC)


 * I've just sent them a Tweet about it. No idea if we'll get an answer. - X201 (talk) 09:02, 29 May 2015 (UTC)
 * I think you are correct, they probably use very narrow definitions.
 * I will let it rest, too fiddly for me. Please let us know on the talk page if they happen to respond to the tweet.
 * Thank you very much for your help!-91.10.62.211 (talk) 14:32, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

James taylor is not john taylor of caroline
Hello, First time doing this. After reading article on virginia ratification of the constitution. Read down the list. I have several ancestors that were for and against it. Click on james taylor and it went to john taylor of caroline. These are two different men. James voted for it but John Taylor of caroline refused to even show up he hated the constitution that much, these two men were related. So what I am trying to say is the link is wrong and I have know idea how to change that? Also it not james taylor of caroline there is no such person its just james taylor. There is only John Taylor of Caroline. I hope you will change it. All the best. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.137.90.116 (talk) 02:42, 29 May 2015 (UTC) — Berean Hunter   (talk)  03:31, 29 May 2015 (UTC)
 * I removed the link from the list of delegates. It does not appear that we have an article on the correct James Taylor. Rmhermen (talk) 03:19, 29 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Well, there is James Taylor of Carolina.
 * The (of Caroline) is part of the original printed list to differentiate the James Taylor who represented Caroline County from another who represented Norfolk. 03:37, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

Reference pop ups
Is it my imagination, or has the "look" of the reference pop up window (tooltips) suddenly changed? What there an announcement about this, and I just missed it?... TIA. --IJBall (talk) 04:26, 29 May 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm seeing no difference, and I usually notice such things, often to my detriment. Looks like same background and border color, same font. Could be your imagination, but could you be more specific? &#8213; Mandruss  &#9742;  04:59, 29 May 2015 (UTC)
 * The text in the pop ups looks "more squished" to me – it's like the spacing between lines in the reference pop ups has been reduced. It makes it harder to read, IMO... And I just checked in my other browser (Safari; my usual browser is Firefox), and I'm seeing the same thing there. Weird. --IJBall (talk) 05:09, 29 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Definitely not seeing that. Could be a local problem. I'd try a restart first; if the problem persists, you might want to take it to WP:VPT where there is a higher concentration of compugeeks. If you have a way to produce an actual image, which you could upload to Commons and reference in that thread, that would prove that you're not losing it due to too much time on Wikipedia. &#8213; Mandruss  &#9742;  05:15, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

Continuation of talkspace/sandbox issue
This is a continuation of   Help desk/Archives/2015 May 24


 * Hello PrimeHunter. First I thank you for your reply.  I want to point out, though, that I am not "insistent on gaming the system and getting others to spend their volunteer time discussing it with [me]."  I do realize that I have been told many times to avoid the particular activity in question.  But what I have been asking for all along is specific, tangible, concrete REASONS why practice-editing in User talk:Richard27182/sandbox needs to be (or should be) avoided.  And editors like you (and DES) are finally mentioning those reasons.  If you want to mentally flag me as something, please mentally flag me as someone who always wants to do things in the appropriate way, but who does a much better job of remembering and observing rules and guidelines when he understands the REASONS for those rules and guidelines.  Specific reasons and specific potential consequences are basically what I've been asking for all along.  And finally people are providing them.    I found your message very direct (in a good sense of the word) and informative.  It fully answered my question and I thank you for that.  I appreciate your having sent it; but I would have appreciated it even more if the (IMO unnecessary) last four sentences had been omitted.  Anyway thank you again for answering my question. Richard27182 (talk) 05:55, 29 May 2015 (UTC)


 * Hello DES. First, thank you for telling me how to handle the situation of having a discussion on the Wikipedia Help Desk go into archive while its topic is still being discussed.  (I hope I've followed your instructions correctly.)  If I'd had to find out how to handle that myself, it would probably literally have taken me at least an hour or two of research.    Concerning the practice-editing in talkspace issue (using my own User talk: sandbox for editing practice), I feel that you and PrimeHunter have helped me understand the actual reasons why I should try to avoid that.  I know I still have a ton of stuff to learn about being a Wikipedian, and learning how to create additional sandboxes in the User: namespace and doing so in a way that let's me access it in just two clicks is a bit ahead of where I am right now.  But I do intend to learn that, along with all the other things I will need to know to be able to make meaningful contributions to Wikipedia.  Let me ask you just one more question and then I believe I'll be done with this issue.  Before I master the ability to create additional sandboxes, if for the time being I continue practice-editing in User talk:Richard27182/sandbox, will I probably be safe as long as I never ever hit "Save page," and only hit "Show preview" and "Cancel"?  Thank you for all your help.  I really do appreciate it. Richard27182 (talk) 05:55, 29 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Sorry I was harsh. You will be fine when you don't save. The saves you have already done can still cause issues later. Another example: If you make a draft article at User:Richard27182/sandbox and use the "Submit your draft for review!" button then your draft may be moved along with its associated talk page User talk:Richard27182/sandbox which could become the talk page of an article in the encyclopedia. The page history would also be moved so users who click "View history" on the article talk page would see [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Richard27182/sandbox&action=history]. PrimeHunter (talk) 09:29, 29 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes, that serves the purpose, . It is possible to link to a specific section of the archived page, and i have changed the link above to do this, as an example. In this case its not really that important, but exampleas are how one often learns around here.
 * I undestand that "This is WHY not to do X" is easier to take on board and comply with than simply "Don't do X, there are good reasons". However, sometimes the good reason involve a lot of history on Wikipedia, and while most such advice is not a rule that anyone will enforce, it is enerally better to think seriously before ignoring advice intended to be helpful, even when full reasons are not given.
 * There were discussions of how to have multiple sandboxes and how to make them easily accesible in the previous thread, but if you later want more focused help with that, ask again. DES (talk) 12:07, 29 May 2015 (UTC)
 * If you want, I can also provide code to make a direct "Sandbox2" link (and "Sandbox3" or as many as you want) next to "Sandbox" at the top of each page. It requires a browser with JavaScript but you probably have that if you don't use a mobile device. Note that when I said "You will be fine when you don't save", I meant you will not annoy others and get into trouble that way. You can still cause confusion for yourself because some things (User sandbox was just one example) behave differently in different namespaces. Some of those things are templates using Namespace detect but please don't ask us to spend time compiling a list. PrimeHunter (talk) 13:24, 29 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Somebody else requested code for more sandbox links. Here is code for two called sandbox2 and sandbox3:

mw.util.addPortletLink( 'p-personal',  mw.util.wikiGetlink( 'User:' + mw.config.get( 'wgUserName' ) + '/sandbox2'),  'Sandbox2',  'pt-sandbox2',  'Your 2nd sandbox',  null,  '#pt-preferences' ); mw.util.addPortletLink( 'p-personal',  mw.util.wikiGetlink( 'User:' + mw.config.get( 'wgUserName' ) + '/sandbox3'),  'Sandbox3',  'pt-sandbox3',  'Your 3rd sandbox',  null,  '#pt-preferences' );
 * Place it in . PrimeHunter (talk) 14:37, 29 May 2015 (UTC)


 * Hello PrimeHunter. (Normally I don't "bold" the name in the salutation, but it's so confusing here with your and DES's messages interspersed, bolding the name makes it clearer which message is which.)  Don't worry; you weren't all that harsh.  Anyway I'm relieved to hear from both you and DES that I can continue talkspace sandbox edit-practice as long as I don't "Save page."  That's really just a stopgap solution until I fully understand how to create additional sandboxes, quick access of them, etc.  I really want to have a fuller understanding of how that stuff works before I go ahead and use it.    Thank you for the code for more sandbox links; but for one thing I do use a mobile device (a tablet), and anyway I looked at the code and at my present level of understanding it's Greek to me.  I'd rather not use that stuff until I have at least a rudimentary understanding of it.    Back to edit-practicing in my user talk sandbox..... I appreciate your pointing out that some things behave differently in different namespaces.  (I remember someone else telling me that too.)  Right now my editing is very limited and I doubt that that will be an issue.  And by the time that *could* become an issue, I fully expect to be familiar with creating and quick-accessing auxiliary sandboxes in the appropriate namespace.  (And in the meantime, don't worry, I won't ask you to compile a list of the things that work differently in different namespaces.)    I guess that's about all for now, except I just want to thank you for your help and advice, and for your understanding. Richard27182 (talk) 07:57, 30 May 2015 (UTC)


 * Hello DES. (Normally I don't "bold" the name in the salutation, but it's so confusing here with your and PrimeHunter's messages interspersed, bolding the name makes it clearer which message is which.)  First, thank you for your enhancement to my link to "Wikipedia:Help desk/Archives/2015 May 24."  Believe it or not, I actually thought about doing it with the "#Problem involving my personal sandbox" included, but when I noticed that the sandbox-editing section was the first one under May 24th, I figured it didn't matter since it would always come up first anyway.  But in retrospect I guess it's a good practice to always include it.    I think we're now on the same page concerning advice alone and advice with reasons included.  I understand that there are cases where it's difficult to give the reason because the reason may be very complex and difficult to explain, or there might just be a whole lot of little reasons too numerous to mention.  And I think you understand that, whenever it's possible to give reasons, I very much appreciate knowing not just what to do but also why I should do it.    Concerning multiple sandboxes and how to make them easily accesible, I think I'll be ready for help in that area sometime in the future, but for right now I think that area is a little bit advanced for where I currently stand.  I have the stopgap measure of "NO Save" talkspace sandbox editing, and I believe that will work well enough until I'm ready to learn the multiple sandbox stuff.  But I appreciate your offer to help, and I'm sure I will be taking you up on your offer eventually.    I guess that's about all for now.  I really appreciate your help and advice. Richard27182 (talk) 07:57, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

Request for Adminship of page: Daler Mehndi
How to i edit the page Daler_Mehndi — Preceding unsigned comment added by Phronesisindia (talk • contribs) 06:43, 29 May 2015 (UTC)


 * You know how to edit the page – you have made several edits to it. However most of them have been reverted by other editors, for contravening various Wikipedia rules and policies. Two examples: beginning a sentence with "Recently", in an encyclopedia which is intended to be permanent, is not good, it is better to specify an actual date; and a press release is not an acceptable source for a citation, as they are often biased. Maproom (talk) 08:54, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

Your first two edits were reverted by User:Materialscientist, who is a administrator, and I have just removed 2/3 of your last edit, as a clear copyright violation. If you re-phrase your question, we might be able to help you - Arjayay (talk) 08:57, 29 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Your question is unclear - especially as you have already edited that article three times, on 25. 26 and 28 May.
 * If (as I believe) you are asking to become the administrator of that particular article: you can't. Nobody "owns" or manages an article in Wikipedia. Articles are meant to be improved by any editor who is able and willing to improve them. Many of your edits to that article, on the other hand, have not been improvements, and various other editors have been reverting them. I hope this clarifies things. -- Orange Mike &#124;  Talk  12:24, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

Reference
Hi, can anyone check what problem with referencing has occured in Murshid Quli Khan. At the bottom of the page, the message appears Cite error: The named reference MQK was invoked but never defined (see the help page). Jump up ^ Chowdhury, p.20 Jump up ^ Cite error: The named reference MQKTF was invoked but never defined (see the help page). RRD13 দেবজ্যোতি (talk) 12:39, 29 May 2015 (UTC)
 * I think, at a quick glance, that it's because you've invoked references after the template - references further down won't show in that list, and so what you're seeing is the autogenerated reflist for the last few sections of the page (after Notes). Moving the Footnotes section above the Notes section should fix the problem, or you can redefine the refs in the footnotes. Yunshui 雲 水  12:44, 29 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Yep, that's definitely it - the  template needs to come before the   template, since it transcludes text which contains references that are only defined in the article body. Yunshui 雲 水  12:48, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

external links edits
I represent Genetic Alliance and babysfirsttest.com. We are a non profit organization advocating for New Born Screening. I am trying to add links to our descriptions to the wikipedia external links section for the diseases on new born screening panels. I am getting a message about spamming. Is there a way to override this and to not have our website blacklisted?

206.205.234.202 (talk) 14:55, 29 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Certainly not; you are spamming us, and if you or others persist too long, your site will end up being blacklisted. Wikipedia does not exist to promote your cause, however noble you (or I) perceive it to be. -- Orange Mike &#124;  Talk  15:00, 29 May 2015 (UTC)
 * They've done it to 5-6 articles, so I've given them a final warning. Joseph2302 (talk) 15:03, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

related to above ...
I checked the activity of 206, and found that they had added the spamlink to seven articles, and six had been removed. I removed the seventh. Is there a good way for editors to avoid duplicating each others' work when such things happen? Maproom (talk) 16:04, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

Names & Stories on Random Killers and Serial Killiers on Wikipedia
I protest all wikipedia pages that "honor" killers by giving them a name. However, the incidents should go down as "the Century movie random killings" or some such title.

All assassinations, murders, random killings should go down as events, incidences, otherwise, the world is giving them what they want: their name in lights albeit notoriety.

Let us NOT give those people what they want - far from it! Let their name be something tiny. Censor the name - what does it matter anyway once they're caught? They thrive on this. Even amongst each other. This is not to say that these incidences will stop. I bet it will be a reduction in these events. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.0.170.104 (talk) 17:15, 29 May 2015 (UTC)


 * Thanks for sharing, but Wikipedia doesn't pass any opinions on it's own on which actions are "worthy" of preserving and which should be forgotten. Wikipedia only reflects what existing sources have already covered.  If the history books have covered a murder case, Wikipedia does as well.  We don't make out own decisions here.  -- Jayron 32 17:20, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

Return the Jedi
I wanted to find out how to get the page for Angelique Perrin re-instated. It was deleted for lack of citation or something like that. But the fans who created the page pulled the content from IMDB (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0674721/) and other TV show sources. She is listed in multiple other Wiki pages for her work on various cartoons including Star Wars and in radio. She also has a Wookie page.

How do we add get her page back up and add citations to keep it from getting deleted again. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Danaterry (talk • contribs) 18:48, 29 May 2015‎ (UTC)


 * Hi Angelique Perrin was deleted due to being an unsourced biography of a living person for at least 7 days. You may re-create the article, citing information using reliable sources. Help:Referencing for beginners provides a nice guide for how to provide sources.
 * You may wish to use the Article Wizard to help you get started. You may also use the Wizard to create a draft instead of a live article, if you'd like time to develop the text and provide adequate sources before going live. If you'd like to retrieve the content that was deleted, you may make a request at Requests for undeletion. ~ Super  Hamster  Talk Contribs 19:46, 29 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Do note that the IMDB is considered only a partly reliable source at best, and other Wiki pages, on this or other open wikis, are not considered to be reliable sources at all. You would need published independent sources beyond those. DES (talk) 20:32, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

Linking to a foreign language Wikipedia article
I'm creating a brief stub article about a location in Germany that already has an article on the German Wikipedia. Is there a template that says; "see also this German article" or something similar? Alansplodge (talk) 20:10, 29 May 2015 (UTC)
 * If you look to the left sidebar there is a thing that says Languages, links to other language Wikipedia articles should be there. Sometimes it happens automatically, sometimes you have to click on the thing that says "Edit links" then type the language and the page on the other Wikipedia. ~  ONUnicorn (Talk&#124;Contribs) problem solving 20:20, 29 May 2015 (UTC)
 * If you're creating a stub, you can also add a Template:Expand language, to encourage other people to translate text about it from the German Wiki (assuming the article there is not a stub). The answer to your actual question is above. Joseph2302 (talk) 20:37, 29 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Thank you both. Alansplodge (talk) 00:13, 30 May 2015 (UTC)